Immigration in europe and scandinavia

[AGAG]

For the year or so that I've been in the forum I've always been lazy enough not to post something relevant or to start a good topic but recently I've been reading about this Immigration thing and I thought it'd be a nice topic to put here.

A friend recommend me some videos here:

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I only mention those in general, there are many videos and articles that adress the problem specifically. I have read many things about Malmö, Sweden; in which some swedes have been harassed by muslims and sometimes raped or got beated up; Belgium and The Netherlands too, countries in which immigration is a strong issue as they say and according to some researches this very immigration problem mixed up with a low fertility rate will eventually get countries in europe to be ethnically conquered by immigrants. Now, I've always admired europe and Scandinavia specifically for their culture, progress they have made in the fields of science, philosophy, etc. and I know that all the cultures have something meaningful to offer society, that's why it would be a shame for us humans to see how a civilization wipes out in front of our eyes and do nothing, as it happened with mayans around here where I live when the spanish guys conquered everything or the northamerican indians when they got conquered aswell.

I do understand that immigration is a natural process in a human society and I support the people that go there to positively contribute to the host country. Personally I'd love to live in an european country, but contrubuting as I can to it's developement by doing so, if I ever go there I don't want to be a parasite that leeches the government resources, I'd work my way up as I think any immigrant should do.

This particular issue reaches the topics of racism, nationalism, religion and generally human nature. From a superficial point of view, Islam and it's expansionist tendencies would be the main root of the violence and this displacement I see european society is gradually suffering of. I hate to generalize issues, so I accept it could be just some of them, the thing is that I don't know much about the subject of islam and since I live very far from those places I really don't know if those articles and videos are just sensationalist journalism or if it's real and european civilization is facing a real problem which could lead to its end sometime in the future.

Many of the forumites here do live around there and that's why I want to know your opinion on it.

(BTW Writing is hard without coffee... )

[Stealth]

if I ever go there I don't want to be a parasite that leeches the government resources, I'd work my way up as I think any immigrant should do.

Be very careful here not to stigmatize immigrants (including, and especially, Muslims). That sort of thinking is what often creates intolerance and encourages nationalist sentiments. Most Muslims are not terrorists nor lazy bums who just want to misuse government resources. The whole "parasite" thing sounds just like when neoliberal governments (e.g. the American government) blame the poor for their own poverty and label them as lazy, parasites, etc.

Islam and it's expansionist tendencies would be the main root of the violence and this displacement I see european society is gradually suffering of.

They are no more expansionist than Christians. Just think of missionaries and "charitable" Christian NGOs that help children in third world countries while teaching them the Bible (I wonder why they focus on children so much... Oh right, because adults cannot be so easily converted).

I really don't know if those articles and videos are just sensationalist journalism or if it's real and european civilization is facing a real problem which could lead to its end sometime in the future.

European civilization? I don't think it exists. You'll have to be more specific. Germanic? Latin? Scandinavian? Baltic? Slavic? Greek? Saami? Even taking those as generalizations, the issue is still complicated. And just to give you an idea of how weird "European civilization" sounds, think about these terms: Asian civilization (from Kazakhstan to Indonesia, it doesn't get a lot more inclusive than that), African civilization (Morocco being the same as Botswana?), etc.

[NeonVomit]

Sensationalist journalism, but there are a few pretty solid grains of truth in there. I think the immigration issue is one of the reasons the whole of Europe has started to swing to the right, politically (right-of-centre government in Germany, Sarkozy in France, the Conservatives are 99% sure to win the next election here but that is probably more due to Labour's incompetence).

It is an issue, but not the nightmare scenario that those links make it out to be. But certainly something that has to be approached. Many immigrant communities conform and fit in well (London has the largest Korean community in the world outside of Korea, they're down with things here) and others don't (I'm sure some German forumites can enlighten us as to the situation with those of Turkish descent over there). I guess we have to figure out what works.

Does religion play a part? In many ways I think it does, but some of the more messed up aspects of fundamentalist Islam have more to do with culture than the actual religion itself. As people within Turkey itself will tell you, the really conservative hardcore ones tend to come from the east of the country; people from Istanbul or Izmir are far more European-minded and settle in a lot easier and a lot of that has to do with the culture itself.

I dislike religions, but having been brought up in a predominantly Christian country my sensibilities are more congruent with that culture. I (and I believe many other Europeans) tend to feel a bit more awkward about Islamic traditions, especially the role of women in that religion and the stark contrast with women in modern European society.

[NeverendingAbyss]

Europe was always (and still is) ruled by the Christian sphere of influence. Today it seems that the Muslims would have a hard time being accepted after what has happened the last decade. There are always ignorant people who think that everyone in a race/ethnic is the same, spreading nonsense stereotypical beliefs.
Airport Security Check: "Uhhh, excuse me sir, you have been randomly selected for screening."
Man with beard and apparently worships Islam: "Fuck."

I'm sure some German forumites can enlighten us as to the situation with those of Turkish descent over there.

Are you summoning Ragehead93?

[AGAG]

if I ever go there I don't want to be a parasite that leeches the government resources, I'd work my way up as I think any immigrant should do.

Be very careful here not to stigmatize immigrants (including, and especially, Muslims). That sort of thinking is what often creates intolerance and encourages nationalist sentiments. Most Muslims are not terrorists nor lazy bums who just want to misuse government resources. The whole "parasite" thing sounds just like when neoliberal governments (e.g. the American government) blame the poor for their own poverty and label them as lazy, parasites, etc.

Exactly, I thought I was careful enough not to do that. What I was refering to was the attitude that I think an immigrant of any kind should have when adapting to another country, they just can't expect the government to support them in any way without working, they need to contribute positively. Of course, unfortunately many of them still live in poverty even if they do work hard, just take a look at many mexican immigrants in the US. I personally have relatives in the US that went there like 10 years ago and they still work their asses off just to eat for the day. I think that reaches government policies and such and that wasn't my point.

Islam and it's expansionist tendencies would be the main root of the violence and this displacement I see european society is gradually suffering of.

They are no more expansionist than Christians. Just think of missionaries and "charitable" Christian NGOs that help children in third world countries while teaching them the Bible (I wonder why they focus on children so much... Oh right, because adults cannot be so easily converted).

I agree, Christians have their share of mind conquering too but in europe specifically, Islam is the religion that is trying to gain followers since christians have a good part of the population. Besides, the quoran tells explicitly to destroy the ones who don't share your faith, in the name of Allah, christians have "moderated" their actions of conquering since they have practically the whole western civilization. Just to make it clear I am not in favor of any religion and I mentioned Muslims just because they are the ones that need to be adressed in the case of europe.

I really don't know if those articles and videos are just sensationalist journalism or if it's real and european civilization is facing a real problem which could lead to its end sometime in the future.

European civilization? I don't think it exists. You'll have to be more specific. Germanic? Latin? Scandinavian? Baltic? Slavic? Greek? Saami? Even taking those as generalizations, the issue is still complicated. And just to give you an idea of how weird "European civilization" sounds, think about these terms: Asian civilization (from Kazakhstan to Indonesia, it doesn't get a lot more inclusive than that), African civilization (Morocco being the same as Botswana?), etc.

Well, the news reports mention that a huge part of native europe population (By that I mean people who have been born in those countries and have some strong ascendance backrgound of that particular nationality e.g. a fifth generation swede) are in danger of dissapearing by 2050. I'd adress scandinavians specifically since their low fertility rates but I'm refering to native europe popularion as a whole.

[AGAG]

Sensationalist journalism, but there are a few pretty solid grains of truth in there. I think the immigration issue is one of the reasons the whole of Europe has started to swing to the right, politically (right-of-centre government in Germany, Sarkozy in France, the Conservatives are 99% sure to win the next election here but that is probably more due to Labour's incompetence).

I thought it might be a political issue, a report from Malmö tells that the situation of immigration has led many of the folks there to go right wing in order to protect their race and country, I find it disgusting to use the people like that but it happens, many nationalist bigoted organizations work that way.

Does religion play a part? In many ways I think it does, but some of the more messed up aspects of fundamentalist Islam have more to do with culture than the actual religion itself. As people within Turkey itself will tell you, the really conservative hardcore ones tend to come from the east of the country; people from Istanbul or Izmir are far more European-minded and settle in a lot easier and a lot of that has to do with the culture itself.

I dislike religions, but having been brought up in a predominantly Christian country my sensibilities are more congruent with that culture. I (and I believe many other Europeans) tend to feel a bit more awkward about Islamic traditions, especially the role of women in that religion and the stark contrast with women in modern European society.

Religion and politics is all about power, priests and politicians need power over people in order to feel good about themselves, that's the way most humans work.

[Stealth]

I (and I believe many other Europeans) tend to feel a bit more awkward about Islamic traditions, especially the role of women in that religion and the stark contrast with women in modern European society.

Again, we cannot really talk about European society here. The treatment women receive in Denmark, for example, is very different from the treatment they receive in Italy. Or pick other pairs as examples: Sweden and Spain; Germany and France; Holland and Portugal... You get the point. The role of women varies greatly depending on country and culture, with machismo still being predominant in countries such as Italy, Spain, Portugal, and France, while Nordic countries have a reputation for being more egalitarian. By the way, Christianity is extremely misogynistic, so Christians should analyze their own customs and beliefs before looking down on Muslims with disgust. Remember, according to the Genesis, woman is a by-product of man.

[mayhem-for-all]

We aren't any better than they are.
All this muslim activity is somehow similar to the crusades in smaller scale.

There was this guy who shot several people here in Finland recently. He had broken up and thats why he shot his ex along with several people working in the same place and after killing her he shot himself.

Then there are beggars who come to beg using their brand new cars and switch their clothes to a bit poorer looking.
(oh and just to not make you think they are muslims they aren't. They are just immigrants)

I don't have anything against those people but I have lots of stuff against what some of them do.

And I don't think we are too strict on taking immigrants.

[Carcass]

Islam and it's expansionist tendencies would be the main root of the violence and this displacement I see european society is gradually suffering of.

I agree, Christians have their share of mind conquering too but in europe specifically, Islam is the religion that is trying to gain followers since christians have a good part of the population. Besides, the quoran tells explicitly to destroy the ones who don't share your faith, in the name of Allah, christians have "moderated" their actions of conquering since they have practically the whole western civilization. Just to make it clear I am not in favor of any religion and I mentioned Muslims just because they are the ones that need to be adressed in the case of europe.

Sounds like good ol' Jewish conspiracy to me. I think that conquering part is a very low priority for muslim immigrants.

Christians say that they derive their morality from the Bible. Maybe so, but that's being done very selectively. Same thing with Muslims, the Quran does not reflect the opinions and mindsets of every single muslim.

Traditions are flexible, not eternal monoliths. Both Christianity and Islam have gone through enormous transformations during the course of their history. Now Islam (and Christianity) have to adapt to the new situation.


inb4 muslim loving dhimmi appeasers go to hell

[NeonVomit]

By the way, Christianity is extremely misogynistic, so Christians should analyze their own customs and beliefs before looking down on Muslims with disgust. Remember, according to the Genesis, woman is a by-product of man.

Yes, that's true, but most European cultures have grown out of that and (attempted) sexual equality is now the order of the day, whereas in Islam women have a clearly defined deferential role because Islam is about 400 years behind Christianity in terms of actual development as a sociological bubble. I'm referring to stuff like polygamy, girls not being sent to high school because their role in life is to cook/clean/have kids, women covering their faces in public etc. And all this isn't even opening the topic of those awful honour killings that occasionally happen here and are disturbingly common in the eastern parts of Turkey.

I mean, in some more liberal Muslim countries like Jordan, Egypt or United Arab Emirates women have started challenging those roles and are becoming lawyers, doctors, engineers (i.e. men's jobs) and so forth but they're faced with stiff opposition and some of them even have a hard time getting married and stuff because men aren't used to women being more independent and are concerned about the social implications (mostly, how their own family will react) of being involved with someone like that.

I mean, these are things that in Europe one wouldn't even give a second thought to.

What I'm trying to say is the whole thing with women is perhaps the biggest issue in immigration as far as Islam is concerned.

[NeonVomit]

Then there are beggars who come to beg using their brand new cars and switch their clothes to a bit poorer looking.
(oh and just to not make you think they are muslims they aren't. They are just immigrants)

Yeah we get those types as well in Cyprus, mostly from eastern Europe.

And then we get onto the whole topic of Gypsies, who occupy a very weird position.

[Mormegil]

I'm sure allowing totalitarian, anti-semitic ideology rise to power in Europe will work out just fine this time.

Be very careful here not to stigmatize immigrants (including, and especially, Muslims).

Yeah, they'll burn the flag of El Salvador.


Sorry, couldn't resist.

Like increasing amount of people these days, I do think the mass immigration has gone way too far. Obviously some of the media coverage is sensationalist, but large portion of it is true. I don't want fundamental Islam any more than I want fundamental any millenia old belief system having any influence in the society I'm living in. I don't like how medieval Islamic culture, that still has its Age of Enlightenment to go through, is considered equal to secular Western culture (to clarify: the one that created classical music and sent a man to Moon). And most of all; I don't like how "racist" has become the new "heretic" and how the cult of multiculturalism compromises free speech (bringing you this week: the trial of Dutch politician Geert Wilder's over his 17-minute film, Fitna).

There are a bilion YouTube videos I could link here, but I suggest you take a look at one of the most prominent (over 100'000 subscribers) and militant anti-Islam (and -religion) channels, that of Pat Condell's:
http://www.youtube.com/user/patcondell

[Mehida]

People (from Europe) support American economical system and values by buying all kind of merchandises produced and promoted by American companies >> Those enterprises won't establish their factories in home but rather in foreing countries where taxes are lower and people can be hired just for a few bucks because they have no laboral protection >> Those workers then go to better places, where now, state can help and give them some opportunities, so they choose (guess it) EUROPE.

Stop using facebook, eating in McDonald, drinking Coke, support your local industry, and things might change as american companies won't invest much money anymore just to supply the american market.

[AAAAAAAAAA]

I just bought a hamster

[Stealth]

I just bought a hamster

Hamsters are worse than the Muslims living in Europe. I can see why an uncontrolled movement of hamsters into Europe could cause upset. Check out South Park's episodes 1210 and 1211. If guinea pigs can do that, hamsters must be terrifying.

[Carcass]

oooooookaaaaaaaaayyyy

[Stealth]

iiiiiiiiinnndeeeeeedddd

[NeonVomit]

Hamsters are Syrian, by the way.

[Carcass]

Hamsters are Syrian, by the way.

My brother has a Siberian hamster.

[RazielSR]

This is difficult...
Maybe you shouldn't directly link religion with a misogynistic society. Anyway it is very very near one thing from another, I have to agree.

But you know, not every man abusing a woman is religious. Spain and Italy are the most Christian societies in Europe, mainly because if you look at the history, you'll see from where it comes the thing.
But in France, a secular state, it's the same regarding machismo.

Then you have,south america, they have Christian religion because of the spaniards. There, people goes to mass a lot too and are very religious, the same, or more, than Spain. And there are machismo there. Maybe more than in Spain. In fact, a high, very high percentage of woman abuse in Spain is due to south american immigrants.

Sometimes you may think that is due to the religion and sometimes because of a hamster, but it's difficult. I don't like religions, I understand if somebody finds help in that, but I don't like it. I was baptized, my communion and all the things. But I naver go to mass and I don't give a fuck the churches (well, just the construction). Religions always have been a problem, always. But that won't change. If is not this religion, will be another, if not, hamsters will rule the world maybe. I have grown in a religious society, even my father goes to mass almost every day. But not my mother, nor my brothers, nor my girlfriend. I mean, I think religion is more from "ancient" people. Are you seeing many young people going to mass?

[AGAG]

And I have a blue parakeet

however...

Christians say that they derive their morality from the Bible. Maybe so, but that's being done very selectively. Same thing with Muslims, the Quran does not reflect the opinions and mindsets of every single muslim.

Traditions are flexible, not eternal monoliths. Both Christianity and Islam have gone through enormous transformations during the course of their history. Now Islam (and Christianity) have to adapt to the new situation.

Well that's theoretically, I mean that's what they should believe and what the should do according to their respective religions, fundamentalists are proof, that's why they are fundamentalists because they are the ones that represent their religions more accurately... muslim-wise it would be a guy setting himself off in an embassy in the name of Allah and Christian-wise it would be preachers selling slaves or hating homosexuals publicly WBC way...

That's why it should be a problem, even though muslim aren't always the guys that blow themselves up, their religion tells them to conquer the world, europe has been sighted as one of the main areas to conquer.

For example, here are some guys that can tell you better what would they do for their prophets (Even though maybe they don't represent the majority of their religion)

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[AAAAAAAAA]

HUUUUUUUU

NEA did that video??? I had no idea he was a fundamentalist. What do you know??

[AGAG]

I hadn't noticed

Burn him!!! :yuk:

[mayhem-for-all]

Christians say that they derive their morality from the Bible. Maybe so, but that's being done very selectively

Yeah you can sell your own daughter as a slave and bible says yes to it

[browneyedgirl]

Christians say that they derive their morality from the Bible. Maybe so, but that's being done very selectively

Yeah you can sell your own daughter as a slave and bible says yes to it

And that was thousands of years ago, but other religions do that practice today.

BTW, in regards to immigrants, all of us were immigrants at one time or other in the past.

[NeonVomit]

Well... European people (of Nordic/Saxon/Mycenaean/Slavic/Norman descent) were here before pretty much anyone else (from the paleolithic era, in most cases), so it's a different situation than in the US when you have a native population that was forced off their land... it's not the same irony of someone complaining about immigrants when their own grandparents were themselves immigrants.

[Stealth]

I wouldn't be too sure about that... Even if they were there before, they still came from somewhere else, but in any case, there's just too much heterogeneity to claim that any people are the original inhabitants of a particular land. What about the Roman Empire, for example? The Romans have intermixed with the Saxons, the Gauls, etc. Let's not even get started on the Slavics or the ex Soviet republics...
Oh, and in terms of being somewhere before other people and being forced off the land, or at least treated as second-class citizens, let's not forget about the Saami. They are not immigrants and most people don't give a fuck about them. In many cases they are treated the same way Native Americans are treated in North America.

[miditek]

Hamsters are Syrian, by the way.

And the little bastards have very sharp teeth- had several as pets when I was a kid!

[NeonVomit]

I wouldn't be too sure about that... Even if they were there before, they still came from somewhere else, but in any case, there's just too much heterogeneity to claim that any people are the original inhabitants of a particular land. What about the Roman Empire, for example? The Romans have intermixed with the Saxons, the Gauls, etc. Let's not even get started on the Slavics or the ex Soviet republics...
Oh, and in terms of being somewhere before other people and being forced off the land, or at least treated as second-class citizens, let's not forget about the Saami. They are not immigrants and most people don't give a fuck about them. In many cases they are treated the same way Native Americans are treated in North America.

Of course Europe has some of its own indigenous people with issues regarding them, but was hardly a problem on the striking scale of what occurred elsewhere. What I'm saying is that it wasn't something as dramatic or sudden as European colonisation of the Americas, it happened over thousands of years, not in the space of three hundred or so.

The fact that we can't even sure about when Europe was first colonised at all spells out a lot about the timeframe we're dealing with here and the way it happened.

[RazielSR]

Americas colonisation have nothing to do with "European colonisation", Europe countries invading other Europe countries, etc, etc. It's a completely different thing. And I agree with Neon.