Religions Based on Fear

StratoHeart · Post by **StratoHeart** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 1:36 am

"I have a very big problem with all the religions that are based on fear", Timo wrote at the tour diary. That's not a nice subject to discuss about, but, anyway, I would like to write some words.

Unfortunately, the most of the people think/say the catholicism is based on fear, and I ask myself from where the hell did they take this conclusion. Catholicism is based on LOVE, but, obviously, it depends on the way you look at it.

When bible talks about "salvation", it not exactly talks about entering a golden gate of another world. Actually it talks about our self-destruction, that's what Timo wrote right after that statement about his problem with religions.

I am catholic. If you ask me: "Where is God?" I would say "Look around, me included". If you ask me "Who/What is God?" I would say "God is the nature - and not only the nature of the Earth, but the nature of all the Universe". Correct me if I'm wrong, but we are not talking about different things.

That's just what I would like to say, as a catholic: our religion is not based on fear, even if some persons inside this religion take it like this.

Thank you

browneyedgirl · Post by **browneyedgirl** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 3:17 am

Well, some people think alot of people just follow a religion because they are scared God will find them unworthy/sinful, and send them to Hell after they die, or on the Judgment Day. Or, that God will punish them somehow if they do something that is considered wrong in God's eyes.

Some people may hate me for saying this but, sometimes I hope atheists are right, because if atheists are wrong--I feel very sorry for them!

The Final Judgment by God to an atheist would be a terrible shock! I may not be saved either, of course, but I never have blasphemed God.... Although my faith has lessened over the years.
I think some people deny God to relieve their own guilty consciences---if God does not exist--then ANYTHING goes! I'm not saying an atheist cannot be moral or good, I'm just saying when they do things Society deems unacceptable in a religious standpoint, they don't have as much weight on their shoulders.

Inventariado · Post by **Inventariado** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 3:46 am

I appreciate the existence of this Topic. I consider it very interesting.
As a catholic, I understand StratoHeart's opinion. I also believe there's a lot of love inside the Bible.

But I also think there is a lot of wisdom in Timo's words. Religion is a complicated word, full of human nature. That makes it imperfect.

So, catholic religion, because of human nature, has this "fear" working somehow in our hearts. There's an example: In almost every chrurch there is the image of Christ bleeding, suffering. I can't deny that is true. He awfuly died because of us. But I think there are many other things to remember about Jesus, and that could get us into light instead of guilt.

I think we should go straight to God, by loving him and any other creature, including ourselves. To be attached blindly to a religion means to take all the rules that have been written by men.

Just let's keep talking about this. It's not easy, but... it's worthy.

Stealth · Post by **Stealth** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 5:22 am

browneyedgirl wrote:The Final Judgment by God to an atheist would be a terrible shock! I may not be saved either, of course, but I never have blasphemed God.... Although my faith has lessened over the years.
I think some people deny God to relieve their own guilty consciences---if God does not exist--then ANYTHING goes! I'm not saying an atheist cannot be moral or good, I'm just saying when they do things Society deems unacceptable in a religious standpoint, they don't have as much weight on their shoulders.

People keep thinking that atheism equals anarchy. I've heard that "anything goes" comment over and over again. I'm atheist and I don't think that anything goes. Besides, I don't want to be offensive, but to give my honest opinion, if atheists don't believe in god just to avoid feeling guilty, then I could say that religious people sin freely because they know that they can confess their sins in church and feel like their sins magically disappear during their confessions, thus releasing them from guilt.
I don't deny god to relieve my guilty conscience; in fact, I don't even feel guilty. And I don't really like the word "denial" in this context, because it sounds dogmatic. Imagine if I said "religious people DENY the fact that god is nothing more than an imaginary being created by men in order to give meaning to their lives"... now that doesn't sound right.
Also, I must say that the final judgment would not be a shock for me. This does not mean that I have doubts about god's existence. I don't believe in god, but, HYPOTHETICALLY speaking, even if I did believe, I shouldn't fear god's wrath, after all, if he is all-loving, he would certainly forgive me for not believing in him. On the other hand, still hypothetically, there's a general belief that believing in god automatically means acknowledging his love for mankind. So (always hypothetically) supposing I did believe in god, I don't think he should judge me; if anything, I should judge god for doing such a terrible job with this planet. The poverty and misery on Earth are present everywhere, and yet god is supposed to be all-loving and almighty. If he doesn't do a better job, then it means that a) He is all-loving but not almighty, which means that he doesn't have the power to change the current situation on Earth; or b) He is almighty but not all-loving, which means that he has the power to make things better but he just doesn't want to. In my mind, it doesn't take much to realize that this being could simply not be both all-loving and almighty. This is where many people say "it's a matter of faith", and usually conversations about religion end with that statement because it's hard to continue the conversation once faith comes in. And by the way, although I'm not a man of faith (at least not in the religious sense) I'm more than ok with people who base their religious beliefs on faith; I'm just expressing my views here; I don't mean to imply that religious people suck

I have no problem with people believing in whatever they believe. Still, I do think that many religions control people through fear, and Catholicism is one of those religions.

fifthtea_sausage · Post by **fifthtea_sausage** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 6:23 am

I must say that when it comes to certain religions, it isn't the religion that upsets me, but the interpretation of that religion by the Church. I mean this, in particular, to the Catholic church. If you look back in history, you can see that the Catholic church, in the medieval times, was more than a modern-day-church as you may see it today. It was similar to a country, and an organisation. And as such, its main quest was to gain power and get followers. So naturally, saying that god will condemn you to hell if you do not join our religion was a natural thing for them to do.

So? They can do what they want. I do not believe that a catholic must attend the catholic church. Catholicism is a set of ideals. You are free to interpret and apply those ideas as you see fit. It is not the Church's place to interpret them for you.

For an example, I am a Christian. However, I am an Atheist and I do not attend church. Why is that? Because I hold the christian morals, beliefs, and culture. Some parts of it I do not agree with, but I'm not going to tell the church to give me a moral code to follow. It isn't their business. They don't represent god, they are regular people like you and me.

I do not believe, furthermore, in pressing your ideals upon another person. The concept of missionaries, like the Mormon missionaries I see so often, is, in my opinion, blatant and rude. Find a religion, interpret it as you see fit, and leave others alone.

Find your own voice
Unleash the power within
Go find your own truth and let (the) others be
Let your own light guide your way through life
Find your own way
Make your own paradise

Nightmare1z · Post by **Nightmare1z** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 7:58 am

The Catholic Church always gets a bad rep for its past, but find me any religion that's perfect or without flaws.

There are many Christians (note the word) who find flaws or disagree with the practices of their church and believe in God but have problems with religion.

However, people are also widely misinformed.

One of my ex-girlfriends mother (Who taught a Baptist class at her church) thought the Catholic Church did something incredibly odd that wasn't even true in the first place. I can't remember the details - but it was a big WTF moment.

There are also people who think Catholics still participate in indulgences to get to heaven.

However, I think it's too broad a statement to say it's based on fear. I can see how that argument is made, but that's being very broad for something so complex.

Stealth · Post by **Stealth** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 8:47 am

I don't think it's complex; I think people make it complex. Besides, interpreting one's religion is ok to a certain degree, but if you are, let's say, catholic, then there are many facts about catholicism which you have to accept as true, otherwise, with the excuse of personal intepretation, people manage their religions in thousands of different ways to their advantage. Again, it's fine if people have their own views, but there has to be certain hard facts that apply to all believers of a specific religion, because too much interpretation results in manipulation. In other words, many people (though not everyone) manipulate religion to their advantage, rather than simply interpret it in a different way. The thing is, if 10.000 people have 10.000 different views on a given religion, then you have to ask if they really follow the same religion at all, because each interpretation might feel like a different religion.

Lapazeus · Post by **Lapazeus** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 11:54 am

Christianity in a nutshell:

God says to people: I'll give you free will. Oh, and by the way, if you don't do as I say you're going to hell. And you will burn there. Eternally.
Where's the free will in that? some might ask. Those people are on their way to hell for questioning my authority.

Oh, and every non-believer is going to hell as well, that's how loving I am.
Even those who haven't heard about Jesus, Bibble or me. Lovely, isn't it.

I'd say that is based on fear. "You do as I say or suffer". Pretty simple.

Does anyone know why God's personality changes some much between the Old Testament and the New Testament?

And why do christians care about the Old Testament anyway? It's for Jews. The New Testament is for Christians. It is unambiguously said so in the Bible. Ten Commandments are nice, but is so is pork. Why do christians get to eat pork while the Jews don't? It's all or nothing. You either follow everything in the Old Testament or you don't. You can't just pick the parts you happen to like.

And don't even get me started with the First Council of Nicaea. A bunch of Bishops get together and decide which texts are holy.

eternity_strato · Post by **eternity_strato** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 12:51 pm

[brutal offtopic]

For Helloween, mrs.God is the devil

[/brutal offtopic]

Let everyone be as they want. For some people, religion is the way to save their lives. For the other, it's just a big business where millions of people follow something unseen as dumb.

browneyedgirl · Post by **browneyedgirl** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 4:32 pm

What I have a problem with are people who say they believe one way, yet act another. I know a person who literally despises Christians, yet she/he preaches some of their Dogma. This individual says,"When a person has a Stillborn Child, that person was unfit to breed anyway!" (I can show the post where he/she stated that BS) This is how some Christians, that this person hates, believe.

:
Basicly, I think people have the right to believe any way they want(or not believe at all). But, nobody has the right to ram a belief system down another's throat! Discussing Pros&Cons like we are doing in a peaceful manner is fine, IMO. And, no religion has the right to use "God's Wrath" to recruit anyone.
There is a saying:
"If you believe in Nothing--then, you will Fall for Anything!" Which explains why so many weird&dangerous Cults with their Selective mentality, gain a foothold in Society. So, if a person believes, or Not, they should do so with Zeal&Gusto! Stand your Ground, whether you are atheist, Christian, Pagan, Buddhist, Agnostic, Catholic, Jew, 7th Day Adventist, Church of Christ, Baptist, Etc.
Freedom of Religion&Expression is meant to be as a gift, and we should be grateful that we have it!

Livia Dencker · Post by **Livia Dencker** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 6:55 pm

Well... I'm not Catholic...
But I think I know what Timo was thinking when he wrote that lines...
It's nice read here about people who thinks God = Love...
But there's a lot of people who still fears God... And there's a lot of people who uses God to control people...
I know a girl who was forbidden to take Holy Communion because she went to Sepultura's show... isn't it intolerance, and a way to control people, based in threat?
It happened in Brazil, and Catholic Church...
Sometimes, church says one thing, but does another...

stratoplayer · Post by **stratoplayer** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 8:39 pm

I have yet to read the other posts since im in a hurry but here are my 2 cents

catholisim started fine (based of the jews) but then it got verry corupted in the middleages and so on, so their goals changed, priests had political power, that was when the whole religion went to hell (pun intended

) then the priests started preaching about how god is to be feared, held in awe and he shalt smite thine ass if thou are sinful!!!

i stopped being catholic because i started to see the church (not the ideals, the organiized human institurion) as hypocritical, megalomaniac, greedy, oppressive and very much paranoic, so i said see you in hell!

Witchmaster · Post by **Witchmaster** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 9:33 pm

I think catholic church is a lot based on fear. The fear of going to hell if you sin is very important. Even if you have sinful thoughts youre supposed to be afraid because of that. That to me is total bullshit

eternity_strato · Post by **eternity_strato** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 10:53 pm

That's like I feel. For some members of my family is just a big circus where everyone follows something which can't be demostrated its existence. So they're following a ghost (and losing so much time

) But other people think that it's someone/something to help us.

The question for me is not about God is "good" or "bad". You can think that he is "bad" when terrible things like twisters happen and he doesn't make anything to stop it. But also you can think is "good" (for example in a lucky way things happen, miracles like you end unharmed from an accident or when someone you love recovers from an heavy illness)

Although it can sound boring and repetitive, i recommend the lyrix Timo wrote on FYOV.

Go find your own truth and let (the) others be

It's sad that wars are happening nowadays because of religions. Isn't it ironic? All religions talk about respect and love the people even when they are the complete opposite to you. And look the world...

I still think there's a way to paradise ... on earth

stratoplayer · Post by **stratoplayer** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 11:29 pm

yes, booze

but seriously speaking, inner peace (paradise if you will) can be acheived by oneself (sort of like budhists, without shaving your head and livinig in a mountain temple)

browneyedgirl · Post by **browneyedgirl** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 4:43 am

The Golden Rule is basicly the best religious belief, but the way people in Society are with their selective mentality, expectations, hypocrisy, lies, etc. it is so hard to practice it! Nobody is perfect, but it seems people always expect the other person to be perfect, or the way THEY want them to be. People are expected to fit a damn mold&if they don't--they are rejected.
The religious author James Dobson wrote some very depressing shit. He said Looks are the Golden Key to Life(especially for women)&Intelligence was the Silver Key. And people who lack both fall into poor self-esteem and take their angry out on Society&God. Then, he says if people become a Christian&realize God loves&accepts them the way they are--Life is suddenly all better!

What a CROCK! Man is not an island---unless a person becomes a hermit an individual has to mingle with people&try to be accepted by them. Somehow.
So, the Golden Rule comes into play. And these days, not many are willing or able to abide by it!

Sorry to be so depressing, but like I said--I have became cynical a bit. But, actually, it should be called Realistic!

fernando_levy · Post by **fernando_levy** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 5:54 am

Hello everyone,

As for this religious topic, I must say I agree with stealth and stratoplayer.

I don't believe in god, but, HYPOTHETICALLY speaking, even if I did believe, I shouldn't fear god's wrath, after all, if he is all-loving, he would certainly forgive me for not believing in him.

I was raised a devout Catholic since I was a kid by my relatives that are deeply Catholic. However, time has gone by; I'm now 18 and, since now I can see religion from a different perspective, my opinion about it has changed a lot. First of all, like stratoplayer said, there's nothing that can convince me that the Church represents God. They're humans, they're not perfect, I can assure you many of them have sinned; they have sinned since ancient times and they sin nowadays, so, why should I go to them for enlightenment? What makes the Church think they have the power to send people to heaven/hell when they have tortured thousands of persons to death for having different beliefs? What kind of tolerance/love is that?

That's why I've been getting away from the Church little by little. Now I feel pretty comfortable. I think the only one that can judge me is me, and only me. However, I do have my moral code. For example, I believe damaging other people intentionally and not in self-defense is wrong. I believe my freedom ends once I damage someone else's. But that's my common sense and mentality. I don't need a religious code to have a moral guide and be happy. I can eventually reach my own conclusions about what's the best for myself. I respect every religion in the world. However, I would just like to tell you that, whatever your religion is, don't be afraid to have your own opinion and conclusions. Believe whatever you want to believe as long as you don't hurt others. That's what I think.

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 10:50 am

Religion is a good idea, but with very poor execution.

StragOvariuS · Post by **StragOvariuS** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 4:31 pm

its based on fear
its based on money
its based in a lie

Christianity has a good intention, but, their followers missed the right intention of the thing that is LOVE, BROTHERHOOD and other good things...i dont see that, i dont see nothing good around that big fucking shit called religion.

And we know(brazilians)that in every corner you can find a church to take your money away, dont want mix up the things...but they're a part of religion...and they struck the fear in those poor innocent people and steal them, so im totally fucking against religion. What we got in 2000 years of religion? wars, deaths, lies...

And pope is just a old man choosed by another old men wearing dresses to be the dipshit symbol of the catholics.

stratoplayer · Post by **stratoplayer** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 6:12 pm

Jack wrote:Religion is a good idea, but with very poor execution.

Those are some very wise words, my friend!

browneyedgirl · Post by **browneyedgirl** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 6:22 pm

stratoplayer wrote:
Jack wrote:Religion is a good idea, but with very poor execution.
Those are some very wise words, my friend!

Thats EXACTLY what I was thinking!

But religions neglect one thing, ALWAYS: the influence of---REALITY/REAL LIFE!

I imagine its easy for SOME people to be Christians&follow God, etc--but for those who do not fit in with society's little expectations, its pretty hard.

: That would take some explaining, and right now I just do not have the time, but I think most will "get my drift"!

stratoplayer · Post by **stratoplayer** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 6:28 pm

i think i get, sort of how cristians are FORBIDDEN TO KILL, yet if its me or them, you sort of... generally... lean towards self preservation, or for the good of others its good to kill that sonmabitch, is that your point??

Stealth · Post by **Stealth** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 7:34 pm

Jack wrote:Religion is a good idea, but with very poor execution.

To me, it is plainly a bad idea.

Religion relies on the help a supernatural being can provide; in my opinion, we have to learn to deal with things ourselves instead of expecting help from above. Religions are also arrogant if you think about it: "god created man according to his own image". First, that's implying that men are the most important creatures on this planet and that god prefers men over other insignificant creatures like fish, insects, etc., even though those creatures are also his creations. Only men would consider themselves to be god's favourite creation, so the statement mentioned above sounds more like a human statement than like something god would say. Second, if god created man according to his own image, then what does god really look like? Is he black? Does he look oriental? Is he blonde with green eyes? Does he have curly black hair? Is he obese? There are so many phenotypical differences among men that I find it hard to determine which of all the images is the one god originally created. And third, we have another hint that god was created by men and not vice versa: Throughout history, in most societies women have been subordinated to men (at least to a certain degree). Surprise surprise, god is always refered to as "he". Why couldn't god be a woman? Because human history dictates that men are always in a superior position, which means that god has to be a "he". On the other hand, if god has no sex, then why is he treated like a man instead of being called by a neutral name, like "it". Couldn't people say "Earth was created by it" instead of saying "Earth was created by him"? And if people don't use "it" because the word refers to a thing and not a being, then they should come up with a new word.
For the record, since I don't believe in god, I refer to god as "him" for the sake of simplicity, since that's what most people call... emm... him.

stratoplayer · Post by **stratoplayer** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 9:10 pm

you bring an interesting point stealth, and you reminded me of something else...

what was the one universal truth that wester society held dear in the middle ages? EARTH WAS THE CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE!!! now we know that was total crap, the thoery behind it was that god created man and the earth so if man was his own image then he would naturally hold us dear in its/his/her heart and place us in the middle with everything else revolving around us to contemplate his glory. SURPRISE the earth revolves around the sun, which is a small star in the outer reaches of the milkiway who in turn is spinning around the universe! well, that had better put things into perspective dont you think!

browneyedgirl · Post by **browneyedgirl** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 11:23 pm

IMO, the people who are obnoxious&childish are those who BASH Christians-YET, they have some kind of belief&if it is Criticized/Discussed, they cannot take it! I mean if you can dish it out-be prepared to take it!

StragOvariuS · Post by **StragOvariuS** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 3:18 am

browneyedgirl wrote:IMO, the people who are obnoxious&childish are those who BASH Christians-YET

we can say the same of those christians that exterminate and massacrated the pagans in the past, right?

browneyedgirl · Post by **browneyedgirl** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 3:58 am

StragOvariuS wrote:
browneyedgirl wrote:IMO, the people who are obnoxious&childish are those who BASH Christians-YET
we can say the same of those christians that exterminate and massacrated the pagans in the past, right?

Did I say ANYTHING about Pagans? I was talking GENERALLY! And, 2 wrongs do not make a right.
For instance, last year in Off-Topic we had a Topic such as this--a peaceful one until someone thought they would start bashing other peoples opinions&this person Ruined that thread for everyone else. The author understandably was NOT amused!

This one so far has been good--no bashing, fingerpointing, name calling. It will remain so as long as people keep an objective attitude.
I think we should keep Tolkki's general premise in mind. No one should bash, or sling shit toward anyone.
So far, this is good, peaceful thread.
And, like I said, I hope the Atheist ARE right, because Otherwise.......

StragOvariuS · Post by **StragOvariuS** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 2:19 pm

browneyedgirl wrote:
StragOvariuS wrote:
browneyedgirl wrote:IMO, the people who are obnoxious&childish are those who BASH Christians-YET
we can say the same of those christians that exterminate and massacrated the pagans in the past, right?
Did I say ANYTHING about Pagans? I was talking GENERALLY! And, 2 wrongs do not make a right.

I just comment something

not offenses or bashings

was just to compare...because you know that them bash each other.

StratoHeart · Post by **StratoHeart** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 2:44 pm

"Christianity has a good intention, but, their followers missed the right intention of the thing that is LOVE, BROTHERHOOD and other good things...i dont see that, i dont see nothing good around that big fucking shit called religion."

Are you sure that you're searching in the right place?

I can accept everything abou the attitude of some who call themselves catholics but they aren't, but yes, you can get something good around religion, you just need to believe that this can be true. We already gave a lot of smilies to faces which almost forgot what was a smile. We already recovered a lot of persons from drugs and alchool, and if there is nothing good about it, please tell me and I'll stop doing. I do it from the deep of my heart and I don't expect anything back, that's what my religion talks. Is it really bad?

Nobody would give you something you don't want, except those ones who don't like you. Even God wouldn't do it. People always say that they don't see any signal of God in their lives, but they don't open their hearts and say yes, I want it. Well, if you don't want, what is God supposed to do?

StratoHeart · Post by **StratoHeart** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 3:03 pm

"Religion relies on the help a supernatural being can provide; in my opinion, we have to learn to deal with things ourselves instead of expecting help from above."

That's another wrong point about what catholicism preaches. There is a very strong phrase (for us, of course) which says: "Faith is NOTHING without actions". Jesus Christ also said that. As I already wrote here (a long time ago, maybe BEG do remember) Jesus always told about human being and its power. When he made his miracles, hw always said: "Do you believe I can do that?". He also said that if we have faith like a grain of dust we could talk to a mountain "Move and throw yourselnf on the sea" and the mountain would do it.

In portuguese, we call prayer means ORAÇÃO

ORAR: to pray
AÇÃO: actions

We don't throw our hands in the air asking for the divine providence. We ask for power to carry on and make things happen. You might know a lot of persons who don't think the same, but if you go (openminded) to a church, maybe you could get something different.

I repeat: the words of Jesus was related more to the human power than to the power from above. But he also told how the power from above can help us and give us strenght to go ahead. Hope you all get me.

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Religions Based on Fear

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I agree with stealth and stratoplayer

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