When Moutains Fall - Like it or not?

shg · Post by **shg** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:57 am

LauriPorra wrote: We are all influenced by something.

That is the point!

Thank you Lauri.

EDIT: ps. Lauri, what do you think about nefertari's suggestion? Would it be possible to make Finnish lyrics into WMF?

Hubble86 · Post by **Hubble86** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:49 am

LauriPorra wrote:
Ragehead91 wrote: Anyway, I hate WMF and I hope they NEVER EVER will take Forever out of the setlist to play this shitty ballad.
Sorry dude, i didn´t mean to spoil the album for you

I didn´t really knowingly set out to write a Forever knockoff when i wrote that song, it was just a song that was in my head. Naturally i understand that people want to compare it to Forever, i guess that is the fate of every single ballad that Strato will ever put out as it is such a great masterpiece. It is definately one of my all time favourites. The lyrics in WMF are somewhat in paraller to the song Forever is today, but from a different perspective.

We all are influenced by everything we hear, these influences come out in our music. Sometimes knowingly most times we don´t even know it when we write it.

btw. are you familiar with the chorus of this song (starts around 1:03) from the 70´s. Finnish version of it by Taiska called "Moi moi vaan" was quite popular in finland...

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/GEk0xO2u1YA&hl ... ram><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/GEk0xO2u1YA&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

We are all influenced by something.

Lauri You are the best!!Your songs are the best. And I'm influenced by you. Dont care about that German. He is from Hessen and he sounds terrible...

RazielSR · Post by **RazielSR** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:01 am

I'm shocked listening the video that Lauri posted. 1:03 it's like Forever! Well I don't know if that was a copy or just coincidence but it's a clear example that many times, we don't know why, but a lot of songs are similar even having really different "environments". Like Blind / Take on me for example.

After all, it's music.

It's normal to compare the new songs that the new Stratovarius is creating, with the old ones. I'm the first maybe who is doing that all the time. It's normal, sometimes it helps me, sometimes not. We compare, cause we have a lot of albums and incredible, really incredible tracks created by Timo Tolkki. So now, a lot of songs are gonna be compared. If some new song have just some kind of similitudes with some old one, we are gonna talk about and compare. When mountains fall and Forever are really similar, but I don't think Lauri's intention was to copy Forever. Cmon, we are talking about a musician who is composing songs like Forever is today, Emancipation, Falling Star...do you see similitudes between that songs¿? Do you really think it's Lauri's intention to copy a song, when it's CLEAR that he can compose a really wide range of songs?

Yes, someday Lauri was thinking, cmon I'm gonna make a "Forever remix"... :/

WMF is just a song that Lauri had in his head and of course he is influenced. Tolkki was influenced too -even by his own songs-(listen Soul of a vagabond and then Revolution Renaissance, listen to Paradise and then We are magic.)
I'm influenced too, when I say my opinions here, and you and the other.

The song Falling Star is somekind of song I've never heard in Stratovarius discography (the same for Deep Unknown by Matias).
Falling Star was a song that I just said...meh...And now I'm always listening to that song cause I like it A LOT. The lyrics, the meaning, the possible interpretations, the chorus...I love the chorus..."noooooow I rideeeee above the skyyyyy! it cannot hold me back!" And the beginning it's just wonderful, I'm really feeling like a falling star

. And the song have a lot of influences too.

Well, I meant with all that things about Falling Star, that I don't think Lauri was trying to copy Forever while composing WMF. Mainly because he is showing us really different and wonderful songs if he wants, and another more typical Strato-fast-melodic tracks too.

Forever is today for example is ( for me ) my second Speed of light and I like a lot when FIT reminds me SOL.

And Ragehead...cmon dude, I think there are other better ways to express you feelings regarding a song. Calling WMF "shitty ballad", it's not fair.

The lyrics are shitty for you? Have you read the lyrics? How can you love lyrics like the new Jani's album, Gather the faithfull, talking about impossible loves and sharing kingdoms with a princess and say this is a shitty ballad? Please, put some lyrics you consider shitty and at the other side lyrics that you consider wonderful, and then we all can analyze your thoughts, cause I'm a bit lost with your comments. Mayhem and you are the most insane forumites in the forum! One saying Stratovarius won't be remembered by E-P-I-S-O-D-E and another saying WMF is a "shitty ballad".

Arkash · Post by **Arkash** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:26 am

Forever is today for example is ( for me ) my second Speed of light and I like a lot when FIT reminds me SOL.

Never noticed the similarity, gonna listen to both of them right away!

RazielSR · Post by **RazielSR** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:27 am

You don't have to see it. I was talking about me. Maybe you won't see any similitude.

Anyway, the intro is Heroes 100%.

Maybe the song is more similar to Heroes than Speed of light, but I want that FIT reminds me SOL, so that's it.

Arkash · Post by **Arkash** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:28 am

Yeah, but well, I'm curious to see if I can find something between the two, too...

RazielSR · Post by **RazielSR** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:31 am

And the first part ot the Matias solo ( I can't tell you right now from what second ) reminds me and it's similar to one part of the riff in Damnation game by Symphony X.

mayhem-for-all · Post by **mayhem-for-all** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:37 pm

One saying Stratovarius won't be remembered by E-P-I-S-O-D-E and another saying WMF is a "shitty ballad

Hey I thought I already cleared that misunderstanding in the Insane forumite thread.

Yet I'm insane

Irinia · Post by **Irinia** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:44 pm

I like the song

Although I understand that it is being compared to Forever as they are the "same type" of song.

Star_Ocean · Post by **Star_Ocean** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:36 pm

Neutral, for me, but I certainly don't hate it. Maybe because I have Winter Skies, my least favorite Stratovarius song ever, to compare it to.

Rage1979 · Post by **Rage1979** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:59 pm

LauriPorra wrote:
Ragehead91 wrote: Anyway, I hate WMF and I hope they NEVER EVER will take Forever out of the setlist to play this shitty ballad.
Sorry dude, i didn´t mean to spoil the album for you

I didn´t really knowingly set out to write a Forever knockoff when i wrote that song, it was just a song that was in my head. Naturally i understand that people want to compare it to Forever, i guess that is the fate of every single ballad that Strato will ever put out as it is such a great masterpiece. It is definately one of my all time favourites. The lyrics in WMF are somewhat in paraller to the song Forever is today, but from a different perspective.

We all are influenced by everything we hear, these influences come out in our music. Sometimes knowingly most times we don´t even know it when we write it.

btw. are you familiar with the chorus of this song (starts around 1:03) from the 70´s. Finnish version of it by Taiska called "Moi moi vaan" was quite popular in finland...

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/GEk0xO2u1YA&hl ... ram><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/GEk0xO2u1YA&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

We are all influenced by something.

I love your songs most on the album, except this one =) an also Jens´king of nothing

Intiaani · Post by **Intiaani** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:49 pm

Oh and Tolkki's said himself that his songs are heavily influenced / they actually ARE iskelmä ("oldies", I think). He also said he stole his idea to Black Diamond from... whatever Katri Helena song it was.

And I believe him. It's no miracle if Forever resembles some Taiska song a lot. That's just what Tolkki does, turns that stuff into his metal. Of course he composes his own stuff a lot, too.

And the remaining guys' songs sounding like Stratovarius made them not change their name after all. Or thus Kotipelto says in the Finnish Soundi magazine (I can't remember and can't bother to check the issue's number). They just wrote what they wanted and then checked the results - well, it's still Stratovarius. We can't denie that. Of course no means to plagiarize anyone. Says me, even though I think When Mountain Fall is too close to Forever somehow. I'd care about the song more if it wasn't placed after the new dawn, but somewhere in the middle instead.

Possibly to get those Forever Is Today and Higher We Go apart from each other.

And of course the comparison between Tolkki and the current band is what happens now, and it might be unconscious as well. And of course Tolkki left his influence to the band's music. And sound. Or actually the sound is the band's, not just one man's.

I've also heard All Children Have Superpowers solo album by Lauri, and that doesn't resemble his Strato works at all. Now that man has very, very wide range in composing music!

Post by **JensJohansson** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:17 pm

RazielSR wrote: I'm shocked listening the video that Lauri posted. 1:03 it's like Forever! Well I don't know if that was a copy or just coincidence but it's a clear example that many times, we don't know why, but a lot of songs are similar even having really different "environments". Like Blind / Take on me for example.

I had heard something before of "some 70s song" which had a chorus similar to Forever... I think it was Tuomas Wäinölä who I heard talking about it.

I had no idea it was THIS similar until I saw that video just now (Take me High/ Moi Moi Vaan). Donno what to say really. It's an exact interval-for-interval, rhythm-for-rhythm and chord-for-chord similarity that covers something like 98% of the duration of the chorus... I don't think TT intentionally stole it, but for sure sometimes a melody springs out of your head because someone else put it there first. And there is no easy way to tell when you write.. did I come up with this all on my own or was it something I heard. Complicated stuff!!

Maybe whoever wrote the melody in the 70s had access to a time machine and stole the melody from the future?

The choruses of "Take on me" and "Blind" of course start with completely different intervals. A fifth vs a fourth. So no similarity whatsoever and if there is it's completely intentional since Stratovarius already had a "Hunting high and low" just like A-Ha!

Post by **JensJohansson** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:19 pm

Intiaani wrote:Oh and Tolkki's said himself that his songs are heavily influenced / they actually ARE iskelmä ("oldies", I think). He also said he stole his idea to Black Diamond from... whatever Katri Helena song it was. And I believe him. It's no miracle if Forever resembles some Taiska song a lot. That's just what Tolkki does, turns that stuff into his metal. Of course he composes his own stuff a lot, too.

It's not "resembles", it's exactly the same melody, rhythm, and chords .. I'm pretty shocked actually, I had no idea!

I always thought the initial "Black Diamond" riff was from "Moskau"..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQAKRw6mToA

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/BQAKRw6mToA&hl ... ram><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/BQAKRw6mToA&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

I suppose it begs the question whose art it is we are actually pissing on!

AAAAAAAAAA · Post by **AAAAAAAAAA** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:27 pm

LauriPorra wrote:
Ragehead91 wrote: Anyway, I hate WMF and I hope they NEVER EVER will take Forever out of the setlist to play this shitty ballad.
Sorry dude, i didn´t mean to spoil the album for you

Its ok this time, but don't make a habit of it

(I actually loved WMF)

Intiaani · Post by **Intiaani** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:18 pm

So, maybe I should

1) actually open the link and listen to the "original" and
2) get my facts straight anyway; I don't think "I think Tolkki said that in the year 2006 or such" is that reliable information for anyone.

And now that you guys mention it, and I actually open the link...

The singing melody is absolutely the same from "Take me high, in the sky" all the way to almost the very end... I always thought TK had something to do with those, but I might be wrong.

RazielSR · Post by **RazielSR** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:19 pm

JensJohansson wrote: I had heard something before of "some 70s song" which had a chorus similar to Forever... I think it was Tuomas Wäinölä who I heard talking about it.

I had no idea it was THIS similar until I saw that video just now (Take me High/ Moi Moi Vaan). Donno what to say really. It's an exact interval-for-interval, rhythm-for-rhythm and chord-for-chord similarity that covers something like 98% of the duration of the chorus... I don't think TT intentionally stole it, but for sure sometimes a melody springs out of your head because someone else put it there first. And there is no easy way to tell when you write.. did I come up with this all on my own or was it something I heard. Complicated stuff!!

Well, I suppose it is a mix of both things. Maybe Timo liked that "band" of the video and he was influenced and made the melody that similar intentionally (at least it seems). Complicated stuff, yes...Just Tolkki knows.

Maybe whoever wrote the melody in the 70s had access to a time machine and stole the melody from the future?

The choruses of "Take on me" and "Blind" of course start with completely different intervals. A fifth vs a fourth. So no similarity whatsoever and if there is it's completely intentional since Stratovarius already had a "Hunting high and low" just like A-Ha!

Yes, but the whole song reminds Take on me. That's what I was saying. Being different, reminds. Not as clear as Forever and Take me high, cause that is REALLY similar. I would say it's almost the SAME.

Curious, shocking.

EDIT: No, I would say it's the SAME. Fuck, it's THE SAME. I'm shocked.

lalodrums2 · Post by **lalodrums2** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:48 pm

I think (as i wrote before) that WMF sounds like a copy of Forever but (and thanks to Lauri for his reply) Polaris has NOTHING to do with the old Stratovarius (with Timo Tolkki). Every musician has his own influences.

"Old stratovarius" and "New stratovarius"? Well, it's the "name" only.

This is other band and yes, it's amazing, I like it. But there's nothing to compare with "The old Stratovarius".

Polaris is an amazing album, it rocks

Cheers to Polaris.

Erase and rewind.

Ragehead91 · Post by **Ragehead91** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:02 pm

There is no old or new Stratovarius. There is just Stratovarius, a band that went through a number of line-up changes in the past.

lalodrums2 · Post by **lalodrums2** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:45 pm

Ragehead91 wrote:There is no old or new Stratovarius. There is just Stratovarius, a band that went through a number of line-up changes in the past.

I think you are right, there are "chapters" within the name of the band.

Pre Timo Tolkki, With Timo Tolkki, Post Timo Tolkki...

Arkash · Post by **Arkash** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:18 pm

Well for me, there is no such a thing as chapters, there is one spirit, one music, eternaly powerfull and quite perfect!

lalodrums2 · Post by **lalodrums2** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:39 pm

Arkash wrote:Well for me, there is no such a thing as chapters, there is one spirit, one music, eternaly powerfull and quite perfect!

It's difficult to say that you have one "spirit" and one "music" because no one is an original member anymore, that's why i think is more like chapters, every chapter is different because each musician have their personal influences, so can't be always the same style...

For example, to me is like "fright night, twilight time, dreamspace, forth dimension" one chapter... "episode, visions, destiny, infinite, elements, stratovarius 2005" the second one... and "polaris...etcetera" the third one. That's my perception, always amazing but different, not the same thing.

But one thing is for sure, stratovarius rocked in the past, rocks now and i'm sure will rock in the future

You cannot have always the same "spirit" within the band, it's a combination of vibes, talents, apportations, ideas, between the members I guess.

Different chapters, always awesome music!

cheers

Arkash · Post by **Arkash** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:38 pm

Yeah, actually, presented like that, it's true, yeah, I think, actually, that the chapters image is bloody true!

Ragehead91 · Post by **Ragehead91** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:28 pm

I just hope that the next album will have more guitar, less keyboards, more fast songs, less ballads and a Timo Kotipelto singing like he did on the Cain's Offerning CD.

Arkash · Post by **Arkash** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:44 pm

No, more keyboard, I freaking love the sound of keyboards, and with a such talented musician, they become necessary for the whole song, maybe just in back, but always there!

Ragehead91 · Post by **Ragehead91** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:49 pm

No. Less Keyboards. I dunno why, but I always had a problem if a keyboard is the lead instrument in a band. I don't like it. Now Stratovarius handled that very good in the past by making the 2 instruments "equal" in their music. But Polaris had just WAY too much keyboard. I want to see Matias do more flashy, fast solo stuff.

lalodrums2 · Post by **lalodrums2** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:50 pm

Keyboard is awesome !!! Don't even think about taking it away!! In that case, more guitar to be "equal" would be cool

Arkash · Post by **Arkash** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:54 pm

Well, actually, that big use of keyboards is one of the things I like most in Strato. 'm not saying that it's all I like, but it really gives their songs that quite divine, majestic, cosmic...celestial (that's the word that describes Strato best for me) dimension, so, actually, I'd ask even more!

Ragehead91 · Post by **Ragehead91** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:57 pm

Well, okay, keep the amount of keyboards. But make the guitar equal. I know that Jens is a genious. I don't need to be reminded of it. I want to hear more of Matias guitar playing.

Intiaani · Post by **Intiaani** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:57 pm

lalodrums2 wrote: It's difficult to say that you have one "spirit" and one "music" because no one is an original member anymore - -

Well, there were none since the drummer Tuomo Lassila left the band to be exact.

lalodrums2 wrote:Keyboard is awesome !!! Don't even think about taking it away!!

Yeh. It's sad but they're gonna fire Jens tomorrow.

<EDIT> My nerd-glasses smiley turned out to be the sunglasses guy after all... so "8]" then?

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