Timo Tolkki's Avalon Pt. 3 and tour

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adrian9
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Re: Timo Tolkki's Avalon Pt. 3 and tour

Post by adrian9 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:08 pm

I believe naples its also the place that gave us Pizza, so...you gotta take the good with the bad I guess.
A9

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Re: Timo Tolkki's Avalon Pt. 3 and tour

Post by robocop » Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:05 pm

You guys were right about him apologizing because he needs some cash, lol. His next post he is literally eating the cheapest shit you can buy.

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He doesn't need much, right? Just 1500mg of sodium and enough preservatives to make you piss coca-cola. :lol:

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Re: Timo Tolkki's Avalon Pt. 3 and tour

Post by NeverendingAbyss » Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:39 pm

He could have bought any instant noodle and he chose the worst of all. :lol:
What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch?!

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Re: Timo Tolkki's Avalon Pt. 3 and tour

Post by AAAAAAAAAA » Thu Jul 30, 2020 8:49 pm

robocop wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:05 pm
You guys were right about him apologizing because he needs some cash, lol. His next post he is literally eating the cheapest shit you can buy.

Image

He doesn't need much, right? Just 1500mg of sodium and enough preservatives to make you piss coca-cola. :lol:
LMAO good one! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Timo Tolkki's Avalon Pt. 3 and tour

Post by robocop » Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:24 pm

Tossin a salad. Needs more ketchup for true Tolkki style:

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Re: Timo Tolkki's Avalon Pt. 3 and tour

Post by NeverendingAbyss » Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:15 pm

I don't understand what's the point of sharing food online?
What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch?!

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Re: Timo Tolkki's Avalon Pt. 3 and tour

Post by Pancio » Sun Aug 02, 2020 2:40 am

NeverendingAbyss wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:15 pm
I don't understand what's the point of sharing food online?
Telling people he reached the "retarded age".
"Retarded age" is a point, during a person's life, in which we can observe the progressive and fast degradation in the use of social media: stupid emoticons, random punctuation, useless caps lock, religious/ethical stuff without a context and so on

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Re: Timo Tolkki's Avalon Pt. 3 and tour

Post by robocop » Sun Aug 02, 2020 10:22 am

NeverendingAbyss wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:15 pm
I don't understand what's the point of sharing food online?
I always post pizza, bro. :lol: Although my friends list consists of 1,000 random spam bots and Indians and other foreign people. Plus Pancio, Zenith...anddddd FLAVIOOOOO!!! :lol:

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Re: Timo Tolkki's Avalon Pt. 3 and tour

Post by ZenithMC » Sun Aug 02, 2020 6:51 pm

NeverendingAbyss wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:15 pm
I don't understand what's the point of sharing food online?
It's so when we discover, through the power of magical science, a way to stick our hands through the computer screen and grab some grub, we can finally end world hunger! :crazy1: :lol:

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Re: Timo Tolkki's Avalon Pt. 3 and tour

Post by robocop » Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:16 pm

Image

Image


He also posted some dude with herbalife mlm pyramid scheme shit. :lol: It seems he might be getting in on it since that girl he sees is with avon, another pyramid scheme. :lol: :eyes

Image

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Re: Timo Tolkki's Avalon Pt. 3 and tour

Post by ZenithMC » Sun Aug 02, 2020 10:11 pm

Tolkki cracks me up with this stuff. :rotflmao1: :rotflmao2: :rotflmao1: :rotflmao2:

Key to the universe is Mexican spiritual energy. :pray:

Why is it that, when Tolkki posts, he always uses sporadic capitalization? ???

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Re: Timo Tolkki's Avalon Pt. 3 and tour

Post by robocop » Sun Aug 02, 2020 10:35 pm

ZenithMC wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 10:11 pm
Tolkki cracks me up with this stuff. :rotflmao1: :rotflmao2: :rotflmao1: :rotflmao2:

Key to the universe is Mexican spiritual energy. :pray:

Why is it that, when Tolkki posts, he always uses sporadic capitalization? ???
Probably since he types it on a phone, if you have the keyboard settings all weird it’ll add periods and capitalize random words. I’ve seen a massacre with a friend of mine. :lol:
Sometimes the texts look like:
Hey. An.d what Was th.e last Time you coomed?
:lol:
And they’re usually too lazy to fix it, even if you’re posting it to hundreds of worshippers who bow at your feet. Bahahaha.

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Re: Timo Tolkki's Avalon Pt. 3 and tour

Post by Pancio » Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:01 pm

His brain is fried (or fired, if you wish).

Anyway, it seems that the drummer from "Timo Tolkki Infinite Visions of Fire and the Mighty Emerald Sword of Doom and Destiny entwined with the Dark Lord of the Deep Down Abyss" started the demo (?) recording session.
You can see a snippet from band's "official page".

The guy is solid but the backing guitar track is pure shit while the drum parts are a blatant copy/paste from every up-tempo (Fields of Avalon in particular).
Last edited by Pancio on Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Timo Tolkki's Avalon Pt. 3 and tour

Post by robocop » Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:24 pm

:lol:
More like fields of coom, am I right?? *knee slapper*

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Re: Timo Tolkki's Avalon Pt. 3 and tour

Post by Pancio » Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:42 am

Fields of "I'm not able to sell a single album without ripping-off my old songs while hinting I was/will be involved in Stratovarius just to be sure my 25 hardcore fans remember it and bow to me", yes :lol:

The good news is: Stratovarius uploaded a lot of stuff on their "Official YouTube Channel" and a lot of stuff appeared also on Spotify; they also updated their Facebook page quite a lot for their standards.
Good news on the horizon?
- Maybe the new fucking album? It's been 5 years since "Eternal" and 2 from "Intermission pt.2" and a lot of moss has grown on my scrotum.
- Maybe the other fucking remastered albums? It's been 4 years since "Destiny" and "Visions of Europe" and I want more (if I'm not mistaken Jens and Timo were in Hamburg, a couple of years ago, to record some "bonus contents")

AHAH, NOT AT ALL, GUYS.

THEY WILL ANNOUNCE STRATOUNITED WITH TUOMO LASSILA, ANTTI IKONEN, STAFFAN STRÅHLMAN, JYRKI LENTONEN, JARI BEHM, JARI KAINULAINEN, JÖRG MICHAEL!
SPECIAL GUESTS: ALEX LANDENBURG AAAAAAND... DRUM ROLL... MIKA ERVASKARI (at least his bones).

Tolkki will be invited in the backstage for a photo with the band, of course.

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Re: Timo Tolkki's Avalon Pt. 3 and tour

Post by robocop » Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:49 am

:lol:
I think he’d rather write songs for Justin Bieber tbh. :lol:
That would be awesome if they remastered some old ones. I honestly don’t hate the production. I don’t usually go back too far in their discography, though. All I want is an audio commentary from Tolkki on the old albums as a bonus disc.
*Burp* so...uhhh this was when I bought a new pair of tennis shoes. It inspired me to write this album.

I’d love to listen to the old albums remastered on vinyl. Or maybe mp3 rips of it. :D

I found a site with Elysium in FLAC format to buy..I may get it. 🤘🏻

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Re: Timo Tolkki's Avalon Pt. 3 and tour

Post by NeverendingAbyss » Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:04 pm

I'd personally would like to hear Dreamspace and Fourth Dimension remastered. I think those two needed some additional mastering hours in the first place.

Episode is fine. It still sounds good, except for Uncertainty. Twilight Time can remain as is. Didn't Fright Night get a remaster? I'm not too fond of the songs for me to listen to it.

Infinite remaster would be grand, but that's the last album to really need a polishing. All other productions (well, except Eternal) were exceptional.
What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch?!

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Re: Timo Tolkki's Avalon Pt. 3 and tour

Post by SentineLEX » Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:11 pm

Pancio wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:42 am
Fields of "I'm not able to sell a single album without ripping-off my old songs while hinting I was/will be involved in Stratovarius just to be sure my 25 hardcore fans remember it and bow to me", yes :lol:

The good news is: Stratovarius uploaded a lot of stuff on their "Official YouTube Channel" and a lot of stuff appeared also on Spotify; they also updated their Facebook page quite a lot for their standards.
Good news on the horizon?
- Maybe the new fucking album? It's been 5 years since "Eternal" and 2 from "Intermission pt.2" and a lot of moss has grown on my scrotum.
- Maybe the other fucking remastered albums? It's been 4 years since "Destiny" and "Visions of Europe" and I want more (if I'm not mistaken Jens and Timo were in Hamburg, a couple of years ago, to record some "bonus contents")

AHAH, NOT AT ALL, GUYS.

THEY WILL ANNOUNCE STRATOUNITED WITH TUOMO LASSILA, ANTTI IKONEN, STAFFAN STRÅHLMAN, JYRKI LENTONEN, JARI BEHM, JARI KAINULAINEN, JÖRG MICHAEL!
SPECIAL GUESTS: ALEX LANDENBURG AAAAAAND... DRUM ROLL... MIKA ERVASKARI (at least his bones).

Tolkki will be invited in the backstage for a photo with the band, of course.
TT is the opening act with Miss K on the vocals. Anders still refuses to show up despite repeated tags on Facebook that promise he'll be there

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Re: Timo Tolkki's Avalon Pt. 3 and tour

Post by SentineLEX » Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:13 pm

NeverendingAbyss wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:04 pm
I'd personally would like to hear Dreamspace and Fourth Dimension remastered. I think those two needed some additional mastering hours in the first place.

Episode is fine. It still sounds good, except for Uncertainty. Twilight Time can remain as is. Didn't Fright Night get a remaster? I'm not too fond of the songs for me to listen to it.

Infinite remaster would be grand, but that's the last album to really need a polishing. All other productions (well, except Eternal) were exceptional.
Only a rerecording can save Fright Night

I'd much prefer a rerecording of Twilight Timo though. Hands of Time with Koti on the vocals and Matias/Lauri singing the choruses was stellar

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Re: Timo Tolkki's Avalon Pt. 3 and tour

Post by robocop » Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:40 pm

The Destiny remaster I can’t really tell the difference. Except I didn’t listen to them side by side. Old and new. The old albums I never liked. Episode I start at and skip the self titled one. :lol: I listened to the albums so much over the years it’s hard for me to even listen again. Just the same old stuff I get tired of so a remaster that sounds way different may be interesting.

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Re: Timo Tolkki's Avalon Pt. 3 and tour

Post by Pancio » Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:43 pm

Oh yes, Anders Johansson and Katriina Wiiala.
How could I forget those two? :x

But Anders is in Manowar, nowadays, wearing plush panties and BDSM clothes: even a fake reunion with Tolkki would be a step above :lol:
I hate Manowar but, to me, Anders is one of the best drummers ever along with Minnemann and Jarzombek (and so on).

Anyway, about the remastered albums: Fright Night is bad, production wise, but good if you think about their budget and that was their first full-length.
Keep in mind that Kill 'Em All and Ride the Lightning original versions were much worse even tho they were from 83/84, not long before Fright Night.
Surely a remastered version is needed.
Twilight Time is quite okay while Dreamspace is weird and a little bit rushed, but I like it overall (I think they need minor changes).
Fourth Dimension is too much rushed and it definitely need a remastered version to fix EQ and levels as well.
Episode and Visions are almost perfect and shouldn't be touched since they're perfectly balanced.
Destiny is the worst "classic" album, I never liked it because it has a sort of rushed/live vibe in T.K. and T.T. parts, don't know how to describe it but the remastered slightly improved the quality (but wrong choices occurred during recording, I bet). The title track is perfect tho.
Infinite set the production bar too high for almost every band, at the time, and it's still hard to find bands that can match certain levels outside the mainstream circuit (with mainstream I mean band like Dream Theater (their production sucks since the self titled album tho) or even bigger bands).
Elements Pt.1 is the peak and my reference album while talking about production (not composition, of course): this is the perfection and I don't think there is a single band, in Metal, that has ever reached this level.
If the Black Album was a staple for '90s, Elements Pt.1 was the same for '00s and still is.
On the other hand the second part is rushed as fuck considering the performance, like a sort of B-Side/Bonus album.
Stratovarius is excellent, production wise.
Polaris is good, for what I can remember, while Elysium and Nemesis are great sounding even tho the triggered/sampled kick in Elysium is annoying as fuck.
Eternal, on the other hand, lacks clarity: it is hyper-produced and bombastic to overwhelming levels.
Also the vocals are placed too much in the background, they don't cut through the mix as they should.
I noticed that, in general, it is a constant in the newer productions (Blind Guardian's Beyond the Red Mirror and Luca Turilli's stuff are so dull I find them annoying) since they give a lot of prominence to orchestrations by layering the sound and this weights down everything.
Furthermore, mixing does not help because it's too unnatural, too forced within "flat n perfect response" killing a lot of dynamics.
Still the album production is better than most of the bands with the same budget.

I hope that with the new album they aim for a leaner and less "algorithmically perfect" production.

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Re: Timo Tolkki's Avalon Pt. 3 and tour

Post by robocop » Sat Aug 08, 2020 3:12 am

Pancio wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:43 pm
I noticed that, in general, it is a constant in the newer productions (Blind Guardian's Beyond the Red Mirror and Luca Turilli's stuff are so dull I find them annoying) since they give a lot of prominence to orchestrations by layering the sound and this weights down everything.
Furthermore, mixing does not help because it's too unnatural, too forced within "flat n perfect response" killing a lot of dynamics.
Still the album production is better than most of the bands with the same budget.

I hope that with the new album they aim for a leaner and less "algorithmically perfect" production.
I think if they don't keep up with modern production standards, lots of fans are going to complain that it doesn't sound good enough.

There is always the fans that would rather the natural sounding drums, etc. It's just easier to have the drums cut through the mix this way if they're sampled. Any modern metal is like this...besides if bands specifically want that sound and record themselves. I don't know, I'm not an expert. :wink:

The Turilli recent album I just couldn't get into. If some melody doesn't catch my ear, I get bored very easy due to my retardation. :lol:
If you hear an album like "Puritanical Euphoric Misanthropia" by Dimmu, you can hear how the real orchestra on most songs is blended well. And that was in 2001. I know most don't like this type of music here, just an example. The drums were mixed almost half triggered half natural mic'd drums on that album back then.

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Re: Timo Tolkki's Avalon Pt. 3 and tour

Post by AAAAAAAAAA » Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:31 am

Pancio wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:43 pm
Elements Pt.1 is the peak and my reference album while talking about production (not composition, of course)
[...]
On the other hand the second part is rushed as fuck considering the performance, like a sort of B-Side/Bonus album.
Stratovarius is excellent, production wise.
I agree with a lot of what you said! Especially the incredible production quality (not to mention peak-level performance in this era by Kotipelto, Johansson, and Tolkki). But these are two common beliefs that I never quite understood:

(1) That Elements Pt. 1 from a composition standpoint is not really that good. I think it is!

Eagleheart is a simple song but a power metal anthem. If you're patient, Elements (the song) is very beautiful and the chorus just rattles my skull with its sheer power. Soul of a Vagabond is another huge, powerful anthem with great dynamics. Fantasia may be cheesy for some, but the solo/instrumental bits in the second half are just priceless. They are just so well done, I can't think of any other band that can pull off a low key instrumental/symphonic section that is done so well. The way the song comes together at the end is also just awesome.

Find Your Own Voice and Learning to Fly are songs that deserve their own fuckin 'paragraph. Yes, the song structures are fairly formulaic, but these tunes are presented with such a blistering, eye popping virtuosity and energy that they make every other power metal band sound like a garage band by comparison. Don't believe me? Crank up the volume and check out the solos that lead into the final chorus.

Papillion is a musical roller-coaster ride with incredible dynamics- kind of reminds me of Season of Change or even a Tale that Wasn't Right. Not my favorite song on this album, but a really powerful, majestic piece.

The other two songs (Stratofortress, A Drop in the Ocean) are less essential, but still better than the best work of 95% of power metal bands out there.

Elements pt. 1 is like a symphonic power metal freight train and in my opinion compares very favorably with an album like Episode. While I love Episode, it is much more inconsistent, and there are some songs I would almost call fillers (Babylon, Uncertainty, Tomorrow).

(2). That Elements Pt 2 is significantly weaker than elements pt 1.

I have heard that Elements Pt. 2 is filler material, but I'm not 100% sure that is the case. I remember in an interview, JJ once said he even preferred the second one. From the two, I might _slightly_ give the first one the edge, but its a close call.

Season's of Faith's Perfection is one of the greatest Stratovarius ballads with one of the greatest solos. An incredible, underappreciated song. I actually can't think of a more powerful/moving "power ballad" (if you can call it that) in all of metal. I do like "Forever", but in my opinion, Season of Faith's Perfection is superior in every way- it just had the misfortune of being released in an era where people stopped paying attention to power metal.

Dreamweaver is also a tour de force that no one talks about. A very dark, depressing song, that conveys a tremendous amount of feeling. Another masterful solo, great chorus, really catchy, Its a riveting performance, that is six minutes of sonic perfection.

Liberty is a weird song in that it does not really fit in the album, sounds almost like something that belongs on Hymn to Life. But its still a really great tune. Yes the chorus is kind of similar to Helloween Guardians, but the rest of the song doesn't sound anything like it. You can tell it was written in one of Tolkki's "manic" phases and actually that's one of the things i love most about this band, all the raw emotion that shines through the songs. Very simple, innocent song that pulls at your heartstrings. I get it, its not "metal", but so what?

I'm Still Alive is admittedly kind of a generic from a songwriting perspective, but the performance, energy, chorus, and jaw dropping solo make it stand out to me as one of Stratovarius' best "fast" songs. One of my favorite tunes when i'm out for a bike ride.

Awaken the Giant and Luminous I will say, I don't really like, but they are not bad songs, and the incredible production quality and performance of the band operating at their peak make them quite passable tunes. As far as Know the Difference: I think the chorus needs to be reworked a bit, but the rest of the song is great. Some of the keyboard bits for example are fun. Not a bad tune but not a standout.

Anyway, there are enough great songs on Elements Pt. 2 that for me- I would give it a solid B+. Pt 1 is an A, end of discussion!

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Re: Timo Tolkki's Avalon Pt. 3 and tour

Post by ZenithMC » Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:12 am

While I really like some of the songs on the Elements albums, my enjoyment of it is ultimately cut short due to the fact that I'm just not a fan of symphonic metal. My favorites from those albums tend to be the less symphonic-oriented compositions. Some of the songs are also just too saccharine for my tastes. Darker sounding songs appeal to me the most.

I'm not a big fan of Eagleheart. It just reminds me too much of a lesser version of Hunting High and Low, which even that was derived from the SOS formula (AKA Tolkki's pop-oriented/maximum commercial appeal songwriting formula). I consider I Walk to My Own Song to be one of the best upper-mid-paced Tolkki era songs. I enjoy Awaken the Giant quite a bit, namely because of the intro and just due to the fact that it's so different-sounding than the rest of their discography. I also like its pre-chorus a bunch. Stratofortress is a cool instrumental and, correct me if I'm wrong, but it might be the fastest song of their discography. Regardless, the outro is also very cool; I always enjoy a good ol' Picardy third.

The title track, it's just too long-winded for my tastes. I'm not the most patient guy, when it comes to music, and become bored easily when there is even a slight lapse in the action, so to speak. The chorus is okay, but a bit repetitive. I really enjoy the solo section, though. A Drop in the Ocean would benefit greatly from not having three minutes of wave crashing noises. :lol: Likewise, Season of Faith's Perfection would benefit greatly from not having the wackiest & creepiest outro I can think of. :shock: :lol:
AAAAAAAAAA wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:31 am
Fantasia may be cheesy for some, but the solo/instrumental bits in the second half are just priceless. They are just so well done, I can't think of any other band that can pull off a low key instrumental/symphonic section that is done so well. The way the song comes together at the end is also just awesome.
My problem with Fantasia is that the sections are so utterly disjointed that it lacks continuity. Some parts really do sound like filler, particularly the section directly after the accordion solo. Also, I'm not a big fan of the Kirk Hammet solo. "Wah-Wah-Waaaah" :lol: Was Tolkki thinking that if he used a wah-wah pedal, people would associate Stratovarius with Metallica and become somehow more successful? Metallivarius. :lol:
AAAAAAAAAA wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:31 am
Find Your Own Voice and Learning to Fly are songs that deserve their own fuckin 'paragraph. Yes, the song structures are fairly formulaic, but these tunes are presented with such a blistering, eye watering virtuosity and energy that they make every other power metal band sound like a garage band by comparison. Don't believe me? Crank up the volume and check out the solos that lead into the final chorus.
The intro to Find your Own Voice is very cool; it's my favorite part of that song. I consider Learning to Fly to be their best fast song by a mile & a half, but Find your Own Voice is right behind it. Learning to Fly also has Kotipelto's second highest note, for additional cool points. 8) :lol: The section directly after the final chorus of Learning to Fly is also very cool.
AAAAAAAAAA wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:31 am
Papillion is a musical roller-coaster ride with incredible dynamics- kind of reminds me of Season of Change or even a Tale that Wasn't Right. Not my favorite song on this album, but a really powerful, majestic piece.
That's an interesting take. I don't get Season of Change vibes at all from Papillion. Papillion is a nice song, it's just a shame that I find it kind of boring.
AAAAAAAAAA wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:31 am
Season's of Faith's Perfection is one of the greatest Stratovarius ballads with one of the greatest solos. An incredible, underappreciated song. I actually can't think of a more powerful/moving "power ballad" (if you can call it that) in all of metal. I do like "Forever", but in my opinion, Season of Faith's Perfection is superior in every way- it just had the misfortune of being released in an era where people stopped paying attention to power metal.
Personally, I consider Tears of Ice to be Stratovarius' most powerful ballad. I consider Forever to be their second best, although I found the lyrics in When Mountains Fall to be more moving. Besides those three, I don't get much out of their other ballads. Not sure if it's considered an official Strato song, but I consider Angel to be a fantastic ballad. The reason I like Angel so much is due to the chorus, really. That glacial synth sound is absolutely beautiful, to me, and it provides a stunning atmosphere. The diminished chord with that melody is incredibly delicious, to boot. Tolkki used a similar chord progression for Out of the Shadow's chorus. The verses are also quite good with their sorrowful vibe. It's funny; there's one very brief moment, during the verse, that reminds me of Lost Without a Trace's verse.
AAAAAAAAAA wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:31 am
As far as Know the Difference: I think the chorus needs to be reworked a bit, but the rest of the song is great. Some of the keyboard bits for example are fun. Not a bad tune but not a standout.
Know the Difference might possibly have the worst chorus in all of power metal. My issue with this song, specifically, rests with the melody. I think it's my least favorite Stratovarius song. Something about it just feels so generic & uninteresting.
AAAAAAAAAA wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:31 am
I'm Still Alive is admittedly kind of a generic from a songwriting perspective, but the performance, energy, chorus, and jaw dropping solo make it stand out to me as one of Stratovarius' best "fast" songs. One of my favorite tunes when i'm out for a bike ride. Makes me want to pull over and beat the crap out of someone. :lol:
I think I'd enjoy I'm Still Alive a lot more if it didn't plagiarize the chorus of Forever Free, no matter how slightly. It's bad enough to the extent that I sometimes confuse the two choruses.
AAAAAAAAAA wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:31 am
While I love Episode, it is much more inconsistent, and there are some songs I would almost call fillers (Babylon, Uncertainty, Tomorrow).
What's huh?! :shock: I wouldn't consider any of those tracks to be filler, not even remotely. Soul of a Vagabond is essentially symphonic Uncertainty, but with a better chorus. :lol: Both of those songs' verses sound like they are inspired by Black Sabbath's Heaven and Hell. Tomorrow is a god-tier song (with Kotipelto's highest sung note) but unfortunately has a rehashed solo (sounds very similar to Against the Wind's solo). Babylon provides variety to Episode, while also containing, perhaps, the most kick-ass solos on the album.

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Re: Timo Tolkki's Avalon Pt. 3 and tour

Post by NeverendingAbyss » Sun Aug 09, 2020 6:24 pm

Elements 1 is indeed Strato's opus magnum. I may have a personal bias since this was the first Strato album that I bought all by myself. :) I remember listening to Elements and Learning to Fly and be completely blown away. At first I assumed TK used some kind of auto-tune to get to his high notes, but that wasn't the case. His range in this album was extraordinary, and there's no way he can sing like that in any other album. The amount of work put by the guys really illustrates the quality of the band at the time. JM in Papillon was great. Nothing too vicious, just music.

Now Elements 2 should never have been called Elements 2. The sound quality is crisp, but it sounds nothing like Elements 1. It's not symphonic. It's modern as opposed to the first. I think the album title hurt it more than it did help promoting it. As a stand-alone album, it's great. Better than the black album, Destiny, or Fourth Dim. What really irks me is that it didn't have an epic track. If TT went full MP and at least cited a piece from Elements 1 then I would consider Elements 2 to be Elements 2. Nemesis then takes second place in album quality in my book.
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Re: Timo Tolkki's Avalon Pt. 3 and tour

Post by Pancio » Sun Aug 09, 2020 9:09 pm

Don't get me wrong, I don't dislike Elements albums at all.
I love almost every song in them and I have three copies of Pt.1 and two copies of Pt.2 BUT:

- I'm very aware that Tolkki's skills in composing were self-limited due to the fact that he knew how to write catchy melodies and progressions and he squeezed and recycled a lot of ideas from Dreamspace until now (Hold on to your Dream is basically the prototype of every catchy tune from him and you know where the song itself came from: "I want out" by Helloween) and a lot of stuff he composed was very much the same redundant "radiophonic" idea

- I'm also very aware that both Elements peaked in their genre and no one ever managed to come close to, at least, the first part when we're talking about production and extreme symphonic power metal (I hate the word "symphonic" related to this kind of music and I prefer "orchestral" tho). Elements was almost perfect but failed in reaching the perfection because of one thing: It is so extreme (speed, vocals), in some passages, that it becomes self-congratulatory without reaching the same level within the pure composition.
Songs are good, of course, but too predictable and linear and this clash against a perfect production and a perfect performance.

- To sum up: I recognize the value of Elements as the highest point in production but, at the same time, I find it was a failed attempt to reach the maximum apex in everything, failed due to an excessively lean (is it the right term?) songwriting, saved by the performances, by the crystalline production and orchestrations.
The music itself is pretty easy while I prefer more articulated songs and ideas (hence my preference of Episode and Nemesis or the Elysium suite).

Some other random personal and subjective thoughts:

- The best song to describe the classic era is Destiny (it's not the strongest one but it's the song that can show almost every facet of the band)

- The best song from the classic era is, no doubt, Visions

- The best album from start to finish is Visions but the highest number of hits, at least for me, are from Episode

- The album I like the most to overcome bad days is Infinite but the best way to heal "bad emotional injuries" is Destiny

- The albums I like to listen while happy or triumphant are Elements Pt.1 and Infinite

- If I have to choose one "album per era" my choices are: Dreamspace/Fourth Dimension, maybe Visions but probably Episode and Nemesis

- My chart by tastes is: Visions/Episode, Nemesis, Elysium, Infinite, Eternal, Elements Pt.1, Destiny, Dreamspace, Polaris, Fourth Dimension, Twilight Time, Elements Pt.2, Stratovarius and Fright Night

- My chart based on album's importance for the "metal world": Visions, Infinite, Elements, Episode, Nemesis, Destiny, Elysium, Eternal, Polaris, Fourth Dimension, Stratovarius, Dreamspace, Twilight Time and Fright Night

- The best top two songs ever from the band, imho, are: Elysium and Visions (I'm not able to choose a third place, too many good songs deserve it)


This is just to clarify that there are multiple approach at the same thing: when I listen to music I'm very much focused on composition skill, skill and production.
The average point between all this things tells me how the album is for me: a good album with good compositions but horrible production is good but not enjoyable and an average album with average compositions and top-notch production is average but enjoyable.
I prefer listening to the second but the "score" can be higher for the first, actually.
I'm strange :lol:

Sorry for any mistakes I may have made, I slept two hours and I'm literally broken :~(

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Re: Timo Tolkki's Avalon Pt. 3 and tour

Post by NeverendingAbyss » Sun Aug 09, 2020 9:34 pm

Pancio wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 9:09 pm
The average point between all this things tells me how the album is for me: a good album with good compositions but horrible production is good but not enjoyable and an average album with average compositions and top-notch production is average but enjoyable.
I really like this thought process. Perhaps this is the reason why I don't find Eternal to be so high up in my personal ranking. To me, even though Eternal has a great composition, it's a little easier to forget than Elements. I can recognize that the production does have a lot to do with it, but I'll have to disagree it is superior than Elements. Elements 1 brought simplicity to the table, and quite beautifully. If it were food, I will not be full but rather satisfied. Now with Eternal that's a buffet of musical direction, and while I may be full I will feel like it was too much to the point of getting heart burns. I hope this parallel makes sense. :lol:

Sure Elements isn't particularly surprising. It doesn't need to be. I see it as perfecting the recipe that Strato has worked so long to create a dish so well made that it's neither salty nor bland. It's spicy enough not to burn. It has just the amount of flavors in all directions.

Even though I like how the guys are participating in composing songs, I want the new album to be more monotonic than the last album. I can tell when JJ and LP write their own songs, or how TK and MK combine their talents to create a catchy song. With TT, at least peak TT, it was all wrapped in one idea. He ordered the whens and wheres and hows to come up with a comprehensive all-around album.
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Re: Timo Tolkki's Avalon Pt. 3 and tour

Post by SentineLEX » Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:46 pm

NeverendingAbyss wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 6:24 pm
Elements 1 is indeed Strato's opus magnum. I may have a personal bias since this was the first Strato album that I bought all by myself. :) I remember listening to Elements and Learning to Fly and be completely blown away. At first I assumed TK used some kind of auto-tune to get to his high notes, but that wasn't the case. His range in this album was extraordinary, and there's no way he can sing like that in any other album. The amount of work put by the guys really illustrates the quality of the band at the time. JM in Papillon was great. Nothing too vicious, just music.

Now Elements 2 should never have been called Elements 2. The sound quality is crisp, but it sounds nothing like Elements 1. It's not symphonic. It's modern as opposed to the first. I think the album title hurt it more than it did help promoting it. As a stand-alone album, it's great. Better than the black album, Destiny, or Fourth Dim. What really irks me is that it didn't have an epic track. If TT went full MP and at least cited a piece from Elements 1 then I would consider Elements 2 to be Elements 2. Nemesis then takes second place in album quality in my book.
+1 for Elements 1 being the best Strato album
+1 for Elements 2 sounding more like it should be called Infinite 2

Probably because it never went on tour and the 2004-2008 drama being right around the corner, but Elements 2 does have a lot of underrated songs. Seasons, Luminous, Dreamweaver and Liberty are some of my favorite songs in the discography. And TT wouldn't write another true epic track until Trinity.
At first I assumed TK used some kind of auto-tune to get to his high notes, but that wasn't the case.
I have the 2003 Tilburg concert on my phone, blows me away every time Timo hits those high notes in Find Your Own Voice

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Re: Timo Tolkki's Avalon Pt. 3 and tour

Post by AAAAAAAAAA » Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:36 pm

ZenithMC wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:12 am
AAAAAAAAAA wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:31 am
While I love Episode, it is much more inconsistent, and there are some songs I would almost call fillers (Babylon, Uncertainty, Tomorrow).
What's huh?! :shock: I wouldn't consider any of those tracks to be filler, not even remotely. Soul of a Vagabond is essentially symphonic Uncertainty, but with a better chorus. :lol: Both of those songs' verses sound like they are inspired by Black Sabbath's Heaven and Hell. Tomorrow is a god-tier song (with Kotipelto's highest sung note) but unfortunately has a rehashed solo (sounds very similar to Against the Wind's solo). Babylon provides variety to Episode, while also containing, perhaps, the most kick-ass solos on the album.
Thank you for your lengthy response!

In hindsight, it was too harsh to say Tomorrow is filler. I don't really like the song much though. If we want to talk about saccharine, this is it. Its kind of catchy but the vocal melody of the verses sounds awkward to me, and the lyrics are overdone. I also don't find anything musically interesting about it (e.g. an inventive passage or solo). Its a decent, inoffensive tune, but not quite to the level of the rest of the album.

These other tunes- Babylon and Uncertainty- you're absolutely right that they are inspired by Heaven & Hell! I never really made that connection.

With Babylon, its 2 minutes too long, too slow, too tedious, doesn't go anywhere. Probably the weakest song on Episode.

Uncertainty is better than Babylon in every way, but if Episode was full of songs like Uncertainty I would not think of it as the masterpiece that it is.

Episode has the really tremendous opening sequence of Father Time, WTSR, Eternity, and Speed of Light, that alone cement it as one of the greatest albums of all time. The rest of the album for me is all over the place, with some great tunes (Season of Change, Night Time Eclipse, Forever, and even the bonus track When the Night Meets the Day) , and other songs I find very average and not at all at the same level as the aforementioned.

I believe the best songs on Visions are slightly weaker than the best songs on Episode (exception: Black Diamond, Coming Home), but there are less tracks that miss the mark for me, so overall its about equivalent to Episode.

The only song on Visions I don't really like is Forever Free, mainly because of the chorus, but all things considered its still very good. To be honest, Visions is an album where the poor lyrics really bring the album down a bit: they are a little too "over the top", especially on Forever Free, Legions, Paradise.

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Re: Timo Tolkki's Avalon Pt. 3 and tour

Post by AAAAAAAAAA » Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:40 pm

ZenithMC wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:12 am
The title track, it's just too long-winded for my tastes. I'm not the most patient guy, when it comes to music, and become bored easily when there is even a slight lapse in the action, so to speak. The chorus is okay, but a bit repetitive. I really enjoy the solo section, though.
I didn't like this song for the first few playthroughs, but it really grew on me. And now, I love it- though I never listen to it anymore because its too intense. Its actually a song so powerful and majestic, it drains my body. :lol:
ZenithMC wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:12 am
A Drop in the Ocean would benefit greatly from not having three minutes of wave crashing noises. :lol: Likewise, Season of Faith's Perfection would benefit greatly from not having the wackiest & creepiest outro I can think of. :shock: :lol:
Yes, they are a bit weird. But it works for me.
ZenithMC wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:12 am
My problem with Fantasia is that the sections are so utterly disjointed that it lacks continuity. Some parts really do sound like filler, particularly the section directly after the accordion solo. Also, I'm not a big fan of the Kirk Hammet solo. "Wah-Wah-Waaaah" :lol: Was Tolkki thinking that if he used a wah-wah pedal, people would associate Stratovarius with Metallica and become somehow more successful? Metallivarius. :lol:
I agree that the song is a bit all over the place and disjointed. But the individual "joints" themselves are so beautiful and well done. And it does come together in the end in a chorus that's just so beautiful and touching. But you aren't the only one who has criticized this song.

I think Elements pt. 1 is too experimental and orchestral for more conservative fans that like tunes like Father Time, Paradise, etc. But this big sound is more what i'm chasing after.

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