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Re: New Stratovarius album: a list of demands

Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:19 pm
by ZenithMC
First SA song for me was Don't Say a Word. I watched the music video. I remember that day fondly, even after all of these years. :D

Re: New Stratovarius album: a list of demands

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:23 am
by AAAAAAAAAA
Zenith, it never ceases to amaze me how little common ground we have over subjects related to the music industry :lol: :lol:
ZenithMC wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:48 pm
Given the circumstances you've described, I would expect to see the music industry collapse under its own weight (bands included).
This is just begging for a Timo Tolkki joke.
ZenithMC wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:48 pm
If there are already too many power metal bands, how come they don't seem to be disbanding or dwindling in numbers?
I wouldn't go as far as to claim there are "too many" power metal bands, as that would require me to define how many there "should be" (an impossible and subjective task). I am making the much more narrow claim that there are more bands competing for less spotlight today than 1990-2005.

Why are power metal bands not dwindling in numbers? Partially because its fun to start and a band and there will always be an interest irrespective of market realities. But mainly, it has gotten massively easier to record and distribute music in the last few decades. But those bands are just glorified hobby projects with very limited commercial success: almost all commercially successful power metal bands today are from the 90s and living off their past legacies.

Yes, there are a few bands out there that might release a hit Youtube video and might occasionally get a couple million views- but the age of large worldwide headlining tours and multi-million dollar record sales for this genre are long gone. I guarantee you that guitarist or drummer up there works at Petco during the week :lol:.

Last I heard, melodeath was kind of trendy, and that is not too far from power metal I guess. Lets see how long it lasts. But strictly symphonic/classic power metal, its a thing of the past. There are no new bands that have the influence and commercial success of Gamma Ray, Blind Guardian, Helloween, Nightwish, Angra, Kamelot...fact! Surely you will give some explanation that they didn't work hard enough or promote themselves cleverly with social media, but its not that simple.

Its not just power metal. Rock music has in general dried up. The 70s produced Led Zeppelin, Queen, and Rolling Stones. What have the 2010-2020's produced at that level in rock music? I don't want to get into a discussion of whether the new bands are as good or better than the old ones, I am talking strictly about commercial success. I am not denying every band is (somewhat) unique and subjective.
ZenithMC wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:48 pm
The way that bands get ahead, in this line of work, is to market themselves well. A great example being Dragonforce, who gained a lot of publicity and popularity after their song, "Through the Fire and the Flames", was introduced in Guitar Hero 3 as the super-impossible-to-beat-on-expert song. It was a great win for them, as their over-the-top style was perfect for such a scenario. Funny enough, that was probably the first exposure to power metal in my life.
Right time, right place, and a stroke of luck. Their gimmick song aligned with Guitar Hero's product needs and they benefited immensely. But reality check: getting your song into Guitar Hero or other mainstream venues is no walk in the park, and every band is trying to market themselves well. Hard work and a desire for self promotion on the internet is not an assurance of anything.
I'll say this much: metal bands have it way better now than they did at the turn of the 1990's, where the music industry basically fucked them all by ignoring them and promoting grunge as their next big cash cow. It was very artificial. There are tons of bands that never recovered from that event, and those that did had to alienate their existing fanbase just to scrape by. Metallica adapted and rode that wave hard, becoming an alternative metal band for about 15 years, and gained a massive audience as a result.
Check out this figure ( a bit misleading maybe as its not in chronological order).

Image

If Metallica's sales have fallen that much imagine how Stratovarius must be doing. Probably 15-20k sales per album. A massively talented band with a huge legacy, and they spend all day promoting themselves on social media. They are hardly lazy or unwilling to use modern mediums.
I don't believe the music industry could ever successfully pull a stunt like that again, because music is becoming largely decentralized. You can make music, put it on YouTube, and gain an audience by promoting it on social media. The music industry, in the traditional sense, is essentially removed from that equation. It's not just music that this is affecting; it's everything. It's a massive paradigm shift.
The music industry still affects the underlying demand for a particular genre of music. Can you name me a single Power Metal band founded after 2010 that has sold over a million albums? There are plenty from the 90s that achieved this feat.
To say that power metal is 15 years past its prime doesn't make sense to me. What is the basis for your argument? Power metal (and metal, more generally) has substantial staying-power and I just don't see enthusiasm for it dwindling anytime soon, especially with the influx of new talent.
We must be living in two separate realities. :lol: How can it have staying power when its already gone?

The biggest power metal bands to this day are Helloween, Nightwish, Blind Guardian, and Rhapsody, aren't they? When were they founded? When did they sell the most albums? Do you think Stratovarius can get a million dollar advance now on their next album like they did back in the early 2000s?

Re: New Stratovarius album: a list of demands

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:00 am
by NeverendingAbyss
As a North American resident I can't say how big power metal truly is. It is indeed dwindling down, but I think it is even more noticeable here in the States (there were a few promising American bands in the last 2 decades or so, but I can't name a single band that started in 2010's). Obviously, concerts in Europe are far superior than here, but have they decreased in attendance? I think that the old continent has such great transportation hubs that if you want to check out a band play live you can easily take the train, perhaps come back home that same day.

I wonder if Strato will play in Atlanta, but I doubt it now. Even then it is extremely inconvenient to get there if you are 5+ hours away from the city. Driving is exhausting. Amtrak is not fast enough and it's still expensive. I don't have enough friends who like power metal to do a "road trip". Yet if I have the chance I will go, because they've been my favorite band since I was 12. I also want to yell "EGADS!" to Jens while he's on stage. :lol:

What personally sucks is that I find it difficult to find new fresh music. I can't connect to other genres as I do with metal. I'll listen to house, blues, or hip hop but it'd be for an hour or so. After that I get tired of it.

Re: New Stratovarius album: a list of demands

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:46 am
by ZenithMC
AAAAAAAAAA wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:23 am
Zenith, it never ceases to amaze me how little common ground we have over subjects related to the music industry :lol: :lol:
Your views on the music industry are too pessimistic for me! That's why. :shock:
AAAAAAAAAA wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:23 am
I wouldn't go as far as to claim there are "too many" power metal bands, as that would require me to define how many there "should be" (an impossible and subjective task). I am making the much more narrow claim that there are more bands competing for less spotlight today than 1990-2005.
Um... then why are you able to state that the music industry is over-saturated? Wouldn't that also require you to define how many bands there "should be", and to that end, how many are "too many"? :?

About your much more narrow claim: yes... I would agree if there was an easy way to quantify the number of bands actively competing for the spotlight compared to 15+ years ago. If I don't know even a rough estimate, then all I can say is "maybe". You aren't counting bedroom musicians in your claim, are you? :lol:

Hold on, I found something useful. Power metal bands formed from 1990 to 2005: https://www.metal-archives.com/search/a ... ame=#bands
That's a lot of power metal bands, from the glory days no less. Why aren't more of them big players in the power metal world? I mean, it should've been easier because that was the time and place for power metal, no?

Now here are the power metal bands formed from 2006 and beyond: https://www.metal-archives.com/search/a ... ame=#bands

3,596 formed 1990-2005. 2,332 formed 2006-current.
1,570 active 1990-2005. 1,798 active 2006-current.
So 228 more bands are competing for the spotlight, compared to the glory days. I was honestly expecting more, over the course of 15 years. Well, you are technically correct. 8)

One could argue that the spotlight has expanded. With most people listening to their music on the internet, it becomes much more easily accessible to people. Obviously, this is only accounting for publicity, not revenue.
AAAAAAAAAA wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:23 am
almost all commercially successful power metal bands today are from the 90s and living off their past legacies.
They'd better hope this is not the case, or they'll be overrun by newer, more interesting, talent eventually. At least, this is not the case for Stratovarius. Their discography is one of the most solid discographies I can think of. It is something for me to aspire to. If we're counting Sonata Arctica here... let's be honest: they simply are not a bona fide power metal band at this point in time and thus are not applicable to your claim. As for other groups, again, if they're resting on their laurels, people will get bored and seek more interesting bands out.
AAAAAAAAAA wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:23 am
But strictly symphonic/classic power metal, its a thing of the past. There are no new bands that have the influence and commercial success of Gamma Ray, Blind Guardian, Helloween, Nightwish, Angra, Kamelot...fact! Surely you will give some explanation that they didn't work hard enough or promote themselves cleverly with social media, but its not that simple.
I mean, is it fair to compare bands that are over 20 years old to bands that are less than 5 years old? Didn't it take almost 10 years for Helloween's keeper's albums to inspire the next generation of power metal bands (including Stratovarius' golden era sound)?
Speaking of Helloween, they are one of the most hit-or-miss bands I've ever heard, literally. One album is a huge success, the next is meh, then a huge success, then etc... :lol:

Anyway, it took Stratovarius about 10 years after their first album to reach those large album sales and worldwide tours you're speaking of. Give it time and we'll see if your assertion holds true for the newer power metal bands. "it's a thing of the past" lmao... You know what's a thing of the past? Disco. :lol: How in the world did Stratovarius chart no. 5 on the Finnish charts with Eternal if power metal is a has-been genre? https://finnishcharts.com/search.asp?ca ... ratovarius

Also... why in the world did Sonata Arctica chart higher with their most recent output than their earlier output? :? https://finnishcharts.com/search.asp?se ... tica&cat=a
AAAAAAAAAA wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:23 am
Its not just power metal. Rock music has in general dried up. The 70s produced Led Zeppelin, Queen, and Rolling Stones. What have the 2010-2020's produced at that level in rock music?
I'm not really going to try to refute this, as rock music is beyond my own interests. I know it's not within your epoch, but Volbeat is an incredibly popular modern rock band. They are constantly on the radio, to an annoying extent. Their music doesn't do it for me, personally. According to wikipedia: "their 2010 release Beyond Hell/Above Heaven was subject to widespread international critical acclaim, receiving double platinum in Denmark, platinum in Finland and Germany, and gold in the United States".

There's also Wolfmother, again outside of your epoch, but nonetheless a modern rock band. Their sound has a lot more in common with rock bands of the 70's.
AAAAAAAAAA wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:23 am
If Metallica's sales have fallen that much imagine how Stratovarius must be doing. Probably 15-20k sales per album. A massively talented band with a huge legacy, and they spend all day promoting themselves on social media. They are hardly lazy or unwilling to use modern mediums.
15-20k might actually be more generous a number than the number of sales they actually generate. The only album I could see the sales numbers for was Infinite, which was certified platinum in Finland at 20,000+ sales. If only I could find out if any of the albums reached gold (which I imagine they should have). Here's a somewhat interesting website for Finnish music sales: https://www.ifpi.fi/in-english/finnish-music-market/

Something to note: Are those 20,000+ sales only for records that were purchased in Finland or does it account for global record sales? If it is region-specific, then Stratovarius is easily making more than 20k sales an album.

Now, album sales have always been a small slice of the revenue pie for musicians. What needs to also be factored in is touring/live shows, merchandise, royalties (from radio & etc.), and streaming revenue. I'm too lazy to make a scenario and plug-in numbers, but touring and merchandise are the two main sources of revenue for musicians.
AAAAAAAAAA wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:23 am
The music industry still affects the underlying demand for a particular genre of music. Can you name me a single Power Metal band founded after 2010 that has sold over a million albums? There are plenty from the 90s that achieved this feat.
Are you talking about cumulative album sales or one-offs? If cumulative, then the answer is pretty obvious. From the 90's (actually 80's with Keeper's II) I know that Helloween has achieved this, also Sabaton in 2012 with Carolus Rex, and probably more, as you said. As for 2010+ bands... it's difficult because all I can find are chart positions, so I cannot confirm or deny your assertion. Also, how is the music industry affecting the underlying demand for a particular genre of music exactly?
AAAAAAAAAA wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:23 am
The biggest power metal bands to this day are Helloween, Nightwish, Blind Guardian, and Rhapsody, aren't they? When were they founded? When did they sell the most albums? Do you think Stratovarius can get a million dollar advance now on their next album like they did back in the early 2000s?
This blog begs to differ: https://www.viberate.com/blog/the-most- ... 019-part-i
Their reasoning is based on follower/subscriber count, though.

That's a question that's difficult to answer. I could guess, but my guess could be wrong. It's best to have actual data to work with when dealing with objective matters. But surely we cannot forget about Sabaton, who sold over 1 million dollars in records in 2012 (quadruple platinum in Sweden), a very inglorious year for power metal, according to you. Truly a genre on its last leg. :wink:

As for that million dollar advance, did that actually happen? Something's amiss here. If Infinite is confirmed ~20,000+ sales, and the price of an album is $15, that would only be $300,000 in revenue (minimum), which would then be divided between the band and the label. Let's say the label makes a %50 cut, so that's $150,000 for the band to divide amongst their staff. Anyway, the point is that $300,000 in sales is nowhere near $1,000,000 in sales... Maybe Sabaton will get a million dollar advance, who know?
NeverendingAbyss wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:00 am
As a North American resident I can't say how big power metal truly is. It is indeed dwindling down, but I think it is even more noticeable here in the States (there were a few promising American bands in the last 2 decades or so, but I can't name a single band that started in 2010's). Obviously, concerts in Europe are far superior than here, but have they decreased in attendance? I think that the old continent has such great transportation hubs that if you want to check out a band play live you can easily take the train, perhaps come back home that same day.
Here are all of the active power metal bands since the beginning of time, from the U.S. (only 697): https://www.metal-archives.com/search/a ... ame=#bands

All the power metal bands of all time (8,020): https://www.metal-archives.com/search/a ... ame=#bands
US power metal bands of all time (only 1,716): https://www.metal-archives.com/search/a ... ame=#bands
Active US power metal bands formed from 1990-2005 (only 188): https://www.metal-archives.com/search/a ... ame=#bands
Active US power metal bands formed from 2006-current (only 265): https://www.metal-archives.com/search/a ... ame=#bands

Power metal isn't very big at all in the states and it never really was. Surprisingly, there are 77 more bands today than during the "glory days". Approximately 21.4% of the world's power metal bands were formed in the U.S.

Re: New Stratovarius album: a list of demands

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:29 pm
by AAAAAAAAAA
ZenithMC wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:46 am

Um... then why are you able to state that the music industry is over-saturated? Wouldn't that also require you to define how many bands there "should be", and to that end, how many are "too many"? :?
I don't want to wrangle with semantics: my general point is that commercially this line of work is far less viable than it was in decades past, but I won't go so far as to say new bands should not go out and put their best foot forward regardless.
They'd better hope this is not the case, or they'll be overrun by newer, more interesting, talent eventually. At least, this is not the case for Stratovarius. Their discography is one of the most solid discographies I can think of. It is something for me to aspire to. If we're counting Sonata Arctica here... let's be honest: they simply are not a bona fide power metal band at this point in time and thus are not applicable to your claim. As for other groups, again, if they're resting on their laurels, people will get bored and seek more interesting bands out.
When I said the bands are living off their past legacies I don't mean they are resting on their laurels. To give a simple example, it doesn't matter if Iron Maiden releases ten shit albums in a row, or ten good albums, people want to hear Number of the Beast. Their fans are aging with the band and if you've ever been to a Maiden concert you'll see what I mean. They are reliving their childhood through these experiences.
How in the world did Stratovarius chart no. 5 on the Finnish charts with Eternal if power metal is a has-been genre? https://finnishcharts.com/search.asp?ca ... ratovarius

Also... why in the world did Sonata Arctica chart higher with their most recent output than their earlier output? :? https://finnishcharts.com/search.asp?se ... tica&cat=a
I cannot speak for the Finnish market of Finnish charts. Too many confounding factors. I mean internationally. Didn't Stratovarius sell like 300,000 copies of Infinite or something like that? Not exactly happening today. And if you think they are bridging the gap through Spotify revenue and social media promotion, well I disagree.
I'm not really going to try to refute this, as rock music is beyond my own interests. I know it's not within your epoch, but Volbeat is an incredibly popular modern rock band. They are constantly on the radio, to an annoying extent. There's also Wolfmother, again outside of your epoch, but nonetheless a modern rock band. Their sound has a lot more in common with rock bands of the 70's.
Yes, I saw this shit band at a festival last year. I'm not arguing that there aren't any commercially successful bands anymore. But Wolfmother and Volbeat are nothing compared to rock music in the 70s like Beatles, Zeppelin, and Floyd, where these guys were treated basically like gods and made hundreds of millions of dollars.

Now, album sales have always been a small slice of the revenue pie for musicians. What needs to also be factored in is touring/live shows, merchandise, royalties (from radio & etc.), and streaming revenue. I'm too lazy to make a scenario and plug-in numbers, but touring and merchandise are the two main sources of revenue for musicians.
Right, because album sales are gone. Its not as though touring / merchandise revenue has somehow skyrocketed in the last few years inexplicably.

This blog begs to differ: https://www.viberate.com/blog/the-most- ... 019-part-i
Their reasoning is based on follower/subscriber count, though.
These are all classic metal bands, mostly 20+ years old. Where are the up-and-cooomers, founded 5-10 years ago?

Out of curiosity, have you really not heard any modern musicians gripe about how bad the financial situation is for musicians these days compared to days past? I can't be the only one.
As for that million dollar advance, did that actually happen? Something's amiss here. If Infinite is confirmed ~20,000+ sales, and the price of an album is $15, that would only be $300,000 in revenue (minimum), which would then be divided between the band and the label. Let's say the label makes a %50 cut, so that's $150,000 for the band to divide amongst their staff. Anyway, the point is that $300,000 in sales is nowhere near $1,000,000 in sales... Maybe Sabaton will get a million dollar advance, who knows
Ok, I may have been wrong here, but I seem to remember vaguely that Stratovarius signed a huge record deal with Sanctuary that was close to a million back in the day. The times have changed- that kind of thing won't happen anymore with few exceptions. Not sure if Sabaton and Volbeat can do it, but Stratovarius and Sonata Arctica sure can't.

Re: New Stratovarius album: a list of demands

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:47 pm
by robocop
Creative endeavors don’t always fill in the void financially where a full time regular job would do. Some do it for the fulfillment it gives them, regardless if they get 200 million streams, sell out stadiums , etc. What I see here in these debates is A10 is always looking at the end game and making money and a living, where Zenith just wants to try his hardest with music and have multiple revenue sources like he mentioned in spam.

Throwing some music out there in an already saturated market to no response would still please a hardcore music guy. Simply because he can step back and see and be proud of what he’s done, even if there’s only 10 streams on the whole album.

There’s being delusional, then there is just being proud of what you accomplished for yourself.

Re: New Stratovarius album: a list of demands

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:09 pm
by NeverendingAbyss
One reason why I dislike The Voice/American Idol/America's Got Talent is because they place drama over talent. And talent in these shows is very generic. The timbre has to sound a certain way. It has to be smooth. It has to be high. It has to be low. When the talent becomes streamlined, it becomes dull. Creativity is thrown out the window to satisfy the sad childhood stories their viewers think they want to hear.

Diversity in the mainstream music industry is long gone. Every modern alt rock band sounds the same. I can't tell the difference between some pop artists because their voices are so damn identical.

It is obvious that if you want the national attention you need to sound like the system. This is very, very sad. Can you imagine if David Bowie tried out for American Idol? He wouldn't even have a chance to audition because his voice doesn't fit the shoes. Yet we all know he was magical in his own music.

Times change. Metal will be buried along with rock and roll. The bastardization of music in the US really hurt the artistic potential of so many bright people.

Re: New Stratovarius album: a list of demands

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 1:22 am
by ZenithMC
AAAAAAAAAA wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:29 pm
When I said the bands are living off their past legacies I don't mean they are resting on their laurels.
That was an unfortunate choice of words for you, then, because those phrases are synonyms. You aren't making it easy for me to interpret your words, are you? :lol:
AAAAAAAAAA wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:29 pm
I cannot speak for the Finnish market of Finnish charts. Too many confounding factors. I mean internationally. Didn't Stratovarius sell like 300,000 copies of Infinite or something like that? Not exactly happening today. And if you think they are bridging the gap through Spotify revenue and social media promotion, well I disagree.
I don't know. I'm becoming frustrated with the lack of information about this and thus, I cannot make a case for or against anything related to Stratovarius' record sales. I assume those 20,000+ sales only pertained to those in Finland, and not internationally (which I do not have data for). Since their record sales are an actual number and not subjective, I refuse to talk out of my ass by guessing their record sales.

This goes both ways. I cannot tell you have much their "glory days" albums sold and I also cannot tell you have much their modern albums sold. If we had data, then we could come to an actually definitive conclusion on this topic.
AAAAAAAAAA wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:29 pm
Yes, I saw this shit band at a festival last year. I'm not arguing that there aren't any commercially successful bands anymore. But Wolfmother and Volbeat are nothing compared to rock music in the 70s like Beatles, Zeppelin, and Floyd, where these guys were treated basically like gods and made hundreds of millions of dollars.
I don't know what else to say other than you are entitled to your opinion. I think I've listened to maybe 3 Beatles songs. They didn't really do it for me at all. Led Zeppelin, I enjoyed more, but again, not really my cup of tea. Pink Floyd has a cool atmosphere to their music, but it's also a bit too mellow for me.

The Beatles are still the most successful rock band of all time. They were a band that was highly publicized, performing on live television, and back then, there weren't too many channels and boomers were constantly hooked to them.

Wikipedia: "They gave their first live US television performance two days later on The Ed Sullivan Show, watched by approximately 73 million viewers in over 23 million households,[93] or 34 percent of the American population."

Yeah... no wonder they're the most successful rock band of all time. Look at those numbers, A10. That's the difference, right there. I think if I had 73 million viewers, I'd be super popular too. ffs, they have statues made in their likeness and asteroids named after them. :lol: They were also featured in films... I mean, this is some hardcore promotion! :lol:

If, instead of the media propagating reports of the corona virus, they swapped their segment out with my music, it would be known worldwide. Don't forget to wear your mask when you listen to Zenith! :lol:
AAAAAAAAAA wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:29 pm
Right, because album sales are gone. Its not as though touring / merchandise revenue has somehow skyrocketed in the last few years inexplicably.
Album sales are most certainly not gone. Popular long-time bands have large followings which generates a great deal of revenue through touring and merchandise sales. Stratovarius probably makes more money now through touring and merchandise sales than when they started out. *sigh* I really hate saying things like this, but when I don't have any data to verify my claims, all I can do is either shut my mouth or make assumptions.
AAAAAAAAAA wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:29 pm
Out of curiosity, have you really not heard any modern musicians gripe about how bad the financial situation is for musicians these days compared to days past? I can't be the only one.
Honestly, it sounds like some bullshit to me. Today is suddenly harder than yesterday... maybe that is true for those who do not understand how to adapt. There will always be entertainment in our world and there will always be a way to attain the spotlight. The only thing that changes here is how to attain the spotlight.

Any band that does not find some way to stand out from the crowd will fall under hard times. This was true in the past, this is true now, and it will be true in the future. Why don't you ask some of the unsuccessful musician's from the 70's how easy it was for them to put food on the table with their music? The past wasn't magically an easier time to become successful. When you can mention maybe a dozen popular bands from the old days, just remember that there were also hundreds of bands that just never made it.
robocop wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:47 pm
What I see here in these debates is A10 is always looking at the end game and making money and a living, where Zenith just wants to try his hardest with music and have multiple revenue sources like he mentioned in spam.
Yes, that's the plan. :) For some, success is to become filthy rich. For others, it's being able to survive while doing what you love.
NeverendingAbyss wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:09 pm
One reason why I dislike The Voice/American Idol/America's Got Talent is because they place drama over talent.
It's an overproduced TV show, so of course drama is placed over talent. :lol: Drama increases interest and viewership because people can't seem to do without it. They also have to go into their tragic backstory every time for maximum feels. Fuck all of that shit. :shake: I feel compelled to leave the room every time my parents have that show on the TV; I cannot stand it.

It reminds me also of American Ninja Warrior, which slowly but surely because overproduced sewage, too. Wah wah wah my sad sad sob story! Shut up! I came here to see people run through an obstacle course, not connect with them emotionally. :lol: I also don't need a couple of commentators hamming it up the whole time either. :roll: 10 years ago, the show was actually in an acceptable format. The contestants showed up and ran the damn course. Simple.

I guess some people just want feels before reals...
NeverendingAbyss wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:09 pm
Diversity in the mainstream music industry is long gone. Every modern alt rock band sounds the same. I can't tell the difference between some pop artists because their voices are so damn identical.
Yeah. The mainstream sound is very homogenized. Screw the mainstream crowd; they're all far gone. They constantly have the media tell what they should do and what they should like, and are completely divorced from whatever their own opinions would be ('cause they don't have any). There's no integrity in appealing to an echo chamber.
NeverendingAbyss wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:09 pm
Times change. Metal will be buried along with rock and roll.
According to history, this is guaranteed to happen eventually. I doubt it will happen within my lifetime, though.
NeverendingAbyss wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:09 pm
The bastardization of music in the US really hurt the artistic potential of so many bright people.
Those concerned about their artistic integrity should only appeal to what they themselves desire, not to what others tell them to desire.

Re: New Stratovarius album: a list of demands

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:39 pm
by robocop
Hey budd ZENITH, what’s your opinion on the YouTube vids that get more views than that show you mentioned? Seems some even have billions. :D

Re: New Stratovarius album: a list of demands

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:48 pm
by ZenithMC
robocop wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:39 pm
Hey budd ZENITH, what’s your opinion on the YouTube vids that get more views than that show you mentioned? Seems some even have billions. :D
What YouTube videos do you have in mind? I tend to just play video games to entertain myself, so I'm not really familiar with too many popular YouTube videos, personally. I do know that some of them are also overproduced, or have become overproduced over time. Good advice for creative endeavors: don't overthink anything. Keep it simple and to the point; authentic. Having the biggest budget to purchase the best camera, or the best microphone, or the best lighting equipment doesn't make it any more entertaining. Those are nice things to have, but they should never become the priority.

There should be a law of some sort, if there isn't one already, called the law of overproduction. There is a balance to be maintained between production value and entertainment value. Once the production value threshold is reached, if the production value increases, the entertainment value decreases.

Re: New Stratovarius album: a list of demands

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:52 pm
by robocop

Re: New Stratovarius album: a list of demands

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:03 pm
by ZenithMC
robocop wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:52 pm
Wikipedia:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... ube_videos
Interesting statistics! I haven't seen a single one of those videos, though. :lol: It's interesting to me that most of those videos seem to be music videos.

Re: New Stratovarius album: a list of demands

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 9:10 pm
by AAAAAAAAAA
ZenithMC wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 1:22 am
AAAAAAAAAA wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:29 pm
When I said the bands are living off their past legacies I don't mean they are resting on their laurels.
That was an unfortunate choice of words for you, then, because those phrases are synonyms. You aren't making it easy for me to interpret your words, are you? :lol:
They aren't the same thing at all. Bands like Deep Purple, Iron Maiden, Black Sabbath, have their core fan base from their releases in the 70s (that's what I mean when I say they are living off their past legacies). Go to their shows and ask around, many of the fans (if not most) have no clue about their recent releases. That doesn't mean they are resting on their laurels. They are trying their best but classic bands just tend to get defined by their classic material because music touches our hearts in a different way when we're in our teenage years. We grow up as adults and want to relive those old memories.

This is less true of Stratovarius than for example, Deep Purple, but true nonetheless. And yes, I'm sure you can find exceptions, etc.

That's what I mean when I say, living off your past legacy and resting on your laurels are different things.

ZenithMC wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 1:22 am
This goes both ways. I cannot tell you have much their "glory days" albums sold and I also cannot tell you have much their modern albums sold. If we had data, then we could come to an actually definitive conclusion on this topic.
Right, I suppose I also don't have the concrete data to prove numbers are way down. I think if you talk to bands like Stratovarius and other major players, they will tell you that the numbers aren't what they used to be, but i can't really "prove" it.

In the 70s, rock was mainstream, and in the 80s, hard rock+metal was kind of mainstream. These days there is more interest in hip hop/rap (total trash) and pop, maybe a bit of electronic.
ZenithMC wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 1:22 am
I don't know what else to say other than you are entitled to your opinion. I think I've listened to maybe 3 Beatles songs. They didn't really do it for me at all. Led Zeppelin, I enjoyed more, but again, not really my cup of tea. Pink Floyd has a cool atmosphere to their music, but it's also a bit too mellow for me.
I am not getting into an argument about what band is best. I'm just saying, those bands were treated like gods back then. The newer generation bands you point out (up and comers) don't have the same visibility, financial backing, and interest.
ZenithMC wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 1:22 am
Stratovarius probably makes more money now through touring and merchandise sales than when they started out.
Not sure why you believe this, but yeah I agree that neither of us can prove it either way.
ZenithMC wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 1:22 am
Honestly, it sounds like some bullshit to me. Today is suddenly harder than yesterday... maybe that is true for those who do not understand how to adapt. There will always be entertainment in our world and there will always be a way to attain the spotlight. The only thing that changes here is how to attain the spotlight.
It seems you believe the opportunities in every field are constant and uniform throughout time and not subject to any external influences or factors. I am more partial to the belief that there is an ebb and flow (push and tow) to this kind of thing. I still believe that if you are very talented, work very hard, and have a decent amount of luck, you can make a living as a musician and get some eyeballs.
ZenithMC wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 1:22 am
Any band that does not find some way to stand out from the crowd will fall under hard times. This was true in the past, this is true now, and it will be true in the future. Why don't you ask some of the unsuccessful musician's from the 70's how easy it was for them to put food on the table with their music? The past wasn't magically an easier time to become successful. When you can mention maybe a dozen popular bands from the old days, just remember that there were also hundreds of bands that just never made it.
I've never claimed that it was somehow trivial back then. A career in entertainment is always financially an uphill battle, because the currency you are paid with is mostly non-financial in nature.

Re: New Stratovarius album: a list of demands

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 9:16 pm
by AAAAAAAAAA
robocop wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:47 pm
What I see here in these debates is A10 is always looking at the end game and making money and a living, where Zenith just wants to try his hardest with music and have multiple revenue sources like he mentioned in spam.

Throwing some music out there in an already saturated market to no response would still please a hardcore music guy. Simply because he can step back and see and be proud of what he’s done, even if there’s only 10 streams on the whole album.

There’s being delusional, then there is just being proud of what you accomplished for yourself.
Very good post.

I would hate for anything I have said to dissuade Zenith from pursuing his dreams, because I heard his music and like it a lot. His expectations are realistic and the talent is clearly there.

I think this whole discussion started with me claiming Stratovarius's legacy is in place and won't budge much if they release the best album of their life, or the worst. For a lot of reasons I described in various answers, but I guess the main one is that most of the fans are adults and I don't see a new generation of fresh faced teenagers getting into the band. This isn't Stratovarius's problem, its a common phenomenon in the industry.

I never meant to claim that music is not a worthy endeavor, etc.

Re: New Stratovarius album: a list of demands

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:23 am
by ZenithMC
AAAAAAAAAA wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 9:10 pm
They aren't the same thing at all. Bands like Deep Purple, Iron Maiden, Black Sabbath, have their core fan base from their releases in the 70s (that's what I mean when I say they are living off their past legacies). Go to their shows and ask around, many of the fans (if not most) have no clue about their recent releases. That doesn't mean they are resting on their laurels. They are trying their best but classic bands just tend to get defined by their classic material because music touches our hearts in a different way when we're in our teenage years. We grow up as adults and want to relive those old memories.

This is less true of Stratovarius than for example, Deep Purple, but true nonetheless. And yes, I'm sure you can find exceptions, etc.

That's what I mean when I say, living off your past legacy and resting on your laurels are different things.
...Fine. I guess it's technically the fans' faults for not recognizing the bands' newer material (that or they aren't super hardcore fans). I've never been a casual listener. In fact, I might lack the ability to listen casually, so I need to soak up all the info about a band that I'm into and listen to their entire discography. :lol:

Anyway, of course old fans want to hear old material. That's why they fell in love with the band in the first place; it's nostalgic! Newer fans might not have those same feelings and might more equally enjoy the band's discography. I'm the latter, with Stratovarius. I love the old Strato-sound and the new Strato-sound almost equally. I listened to their discography in release order, and by the time I listened to Dreamspace, I had to immediately buy it... and everything else! :lol:
AAAAAAAAAA wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 9:10 pm
Right, I suppose I also don't have the concrete data to prove numbers are way down. I think if you talk to bands like Stratovarius and other major players, they will tell you that the numbers aren't what they used to be, but i can't really "prove" it.
Jens! Where are you? Please help (if you have spare time, of course)! :)

Anyhow, 2020 is basically a ruined year for all touring musicians. Concerts and large gathering were among the first on the chopping block, due to govt. policies surrounding COVID-19. Any data from this year will be absolutely horrendous, in terms of touring and merchandise revenue (a lot of merch sales happen at the venue itself). In the meantime, a possible remedy would be to stream concerts and sell merch on those platforms.
AAAAAAAAAA wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 9:10 pm
In the 70s, rock was mainstream, and in the 80s, hard rock+metal was kind of mainstream. These days there is more interest in hip hop/rap (total trash) and pop, maybe a bit of electronic.
This is very true for the United States, but does it apply worldwide? I feel there are still very sizable fan bases for power metal in Europe, Japan, and South America. In the US, there was also a surge in popularity for nu-metal and metalcore around the 2000's. Those bands still enjoy higher visibility than other metal sub-genre bands, to this day. I know this because there were tons of kids in my school wearing Slipknot, Killswitch Engage, etc shirts. There I was, with my Strato shirt. :lol:
AAAAAAAAAA wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 9:10 pm
It seems you believe the opportunities in every field are constant and uniform throughout time and not subject to any external influences or factors.
This is far too all-encompassing and vague, and I disagree with it. Opportunities can completely vanish when technologies become obsolete, but there is a silver lining to that dark cloud. New opportunities can be found with the succeeding technology, so those who adapt by learning the about the new technology may thrive. Anyways, what I said was specifically about achieving success in the entertainment industry, which will always exist in a society as long as food is readily available.
AAAAAAAAAA wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 9:16 pm
I would hate for anything I have said to dissuade Zenith from pursuing his dreams, because I heard his music and like it a lot. His expectations are realistic and the talent is clearly there.
You, sir, are a man of many A's! :luv1: :luv2: :luv3: :luv4:

Re: New Stratovarius album: a list of demands

Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 5:19 pm
by robocop
Just posting some info. Hope you guys are having a good Sunday.

https://soundcharts.com/blog/music-stre ... es-payouts



https://www.informationisbeautiful.net/ ... -compared/

Image

This graph may be outdated.

Re: New Stratovarius album: a list of demands

Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:02 pm
by NeverendingAbyss
I own an xbox and I've never heard of xbox music lol.

Re: New Stratovarius album: a list of demands

Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:14 pm
by ZenithMC
NeverendingAbyss wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:02 pm
I own an xbox and I've never heard of xbox music lol.
lmao! I was just thinking the same thing. Their payout is much higher probably because nobody uses it or is aware that it exists. :lol:

Re: New Stratovarius album: a list of demands

Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:46 pm
by ZenithMC
Spotify payout example, annually

40 artists = 200 albums / 5 avg (giant guess)
104,400,000 annual streams, spotify = 200,000,000 annual streams * 0.522 spotify alloc
$414,468 annual revenue (before cut), spotify = 104,400,000 * 0.00397 spotify rate
$207,234 annual revenue for all artists combined, spotify = $414,468 * 0.50 label cut (giant guess 2)
$5,180.85 annual revenue for individual artists*, spotify = $207,234 / 40 artists

An additional $5,180.85 of annual income would be welcomed by me and that's just for spotify streams alone. Keep in mind, these numbers came from a mid-sized indie label with approximately 200+ album catalog generating over 200m+ streams annually. I'm not sure how these numbers would be altered if a major record label were used in the study. I never considered streaming revenue to be a serious source of income anyway, though.

Side-note: Hmm... time to setup my own music label. :lol:

*There's no way all of these artists would have equal popularity, but there's also no way to gauge this from the numbers presented. I divided the total revenue evenly for convenience, in lieu of accuracy.

Re: New Stratovarius album: a list of demands

Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:41 pm
by robocop
ZenithMC wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:14 pm
NeverendingAbyss wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:02 pm
I own an xbox and I've never heard of xbox music lol.
lmao! I was just thinking the same thing. Their payout is much higher probably because nobody uses it or is aware that it exists. :lol:
I was going to say it too. It must be defunct. :lol: How old is that graph I posted?!? :lol:

Re: New Stratovarius album: a list of demands

Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:51 pm
by ZenithMC
robocop wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:41 pm
ZenithMC wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:14 pm
NeverendingAbyss wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:02 pm
I own an xbox and I've never heard of xbox music lol.
lmao! I was just thinking the same thing. Their payout is much higher probably because nobody uses it or is aware that it exists. :lol:
I was going to say it too. It must be defunct. :lol: How old is that graph I posted?!? :lol:
The graph's probably from 2012 to 2015. Xbox Music became Groove Music (still rings zero bells :lol:) from 2015 and beyond. First, they started out with Zune (which I vaguely remember) and then they succeeded it with Xbox Music.

Re: New Stratovarius album: a list of demands

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 4:27 am
by AAAAAAAAAA
ZenithMC wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:46 pm
Spotify payout example, annually

40 artists = 200 albums / 5 avg (giant guess)
104,400,000 annual streams, spotify = 200,000,000 annual streams * 0.522 spotify alloc
$414,468 annual revenue (before cut), spotify = 104,400,000 * 0.00397 spotify rate
$207,234 annual revenue for all artists combined, spotify = $414,468 * 0.50 label cut (giant guess 2)
$5,180.85 annual revenue for individual artists*, spotify = $207,234 / 40 artists

An additional $5,180.85 of annual income would be welcomed by me and that's just for spotify streams alone. Keep in mind, these numbers came from a mid-sized indie label with approximately 200+ album catalog generating over 200m+ streams annually. I'm not sure how these numbers would be altered if a major record label were used in the study. I never considered streaming revenue to be a serious source of income anyway, though.

Side-note: Hmm... time to setup my own music label. :lol:

*There's no way all of these artists would have equal popularity, but there's also no way to gauge this from the numbers presented. I divided the total revenue evenly for convenience, in lieu of accuracy.
I was able to google around and figure out the very vague range that artists get 15-50% of the streaming revenue. I'm going to go with a happy medium of 25% in my calculations (I think in general 50% is way too high).

If you're in a band that gets 500,000 streams per month, you are far from a hobby project. You're obviously not Metallica, but you have a sizable audience and probably a significant back catalog.

500,000 streams * .0039 cents per stream is about $2000/month from Spotify. Your cut of that would be $500/month.

Now, consider a few more factors:
- Most bands have 5 members, so really that's $100/month per person before tax. That's basically just gas money.
- If you're a one man band you get to pocket the full $500, but then don't have a chance to tour (at least as a metal musician).

Now, in case I seem totally obsessed with money, i think its just the general shift in my way of thinking from say ten years ago. Back then, living at home with most of my expenses covered, doing what I love and making a few hundred a month from it sounded awesome. Eventually your financial needs change and it becomes a bit of a scramble to pay the bills.

Again, absolutely none of this is meant to discourage or dissuade you. From our previous discussions, your interest in releasing music for personal fulfillment (and to just see where it goes) and supplementing that with income from audio engineering, tutoring, other odd jobs, sounds totally great and i'm excited to see you succeed. I will buy your album the first day its released. :)

In fact I think doing what you love is really the greatest and most noble thing (though I recognize we need to be practical too from time to time).

Re: New Stratovarius album: a list of demands

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 5:54 am
by ZenithMC
AAAAAAAAAA wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 4:27 am
500,000 streams * .0039 cents per stream is about $2000/month from Spotify. Your cut of that would be $500/month.
Nowadays, I could probably make more just through Patreon e-begging. :lol: The world's a strange place. :shock:

Anyway, $500 a month is still quite good. That works out to $6,000 a year. Of course, the other people in my band (if I go that route) will deserve to be paid as well, so I'd gladly divide it by 5 (or how ever many people) for them.
AAAAAAAAAA wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 4:27 am
Now, consider a few more factors:
- Most bands have 5 members, so really that's $100/month per person before tax. That's basically just gas money.
- If you're a one man band you get to pocket the full $500, but then don't have a chance to tour (at least as a metal musician).
I've definitely considered this, it's just that I'm not sure how I want to go about it. I'm either going to hire full-time musicians or just live musicians for Zenith.
AAAAAAAAAA wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 4:27 am
I will buy your album the first day its released. :)
Thanks! You're a pal. :D
AAAAAAAAAA wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 4:27 am
Again, absolutely none of this is meant to discourage or dissuade you.
Don't worry about it. I'd do this no matter what. :)
AAAAAAAAAA wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 4:27 am
In fact I think doing what you love is really the greatest and most noble thing (though I recognize we need to be practical too from time to time).
There's nothing more valuable to me than producing something that is useful, in any way, to someone else. Albeit, my desire to write music was born out of my own need for a certain sound that I wanted to hear more of; something stylistically similar to epic dark power metal, or anything with a strong melody and a melancholy-tinged atmosphere.

Re: New Stratovarius album: a list of demands

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 6:27 am
by AAAAAAAAAA
ZenithMC wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 5:54 am
There's nothing more valuable to me than producing something that is useful, in any way, to someone else. Albeit, my desire to write music was born out of my own need for a certain sound that I wanted to hear more of; something stylistically similar to epic dark power metal, or anything with a strong melody and a melancholy-tinged atmosphere.
Sounds great! So what does your timeline look like? Do you have specific milestones you hope to achieve at specific times?

Re: New Stratovarius album: a list of demands

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:48 pm
by ZenithMC
AAAAAAAAAA wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 6:27 am
Sounds great! So what does your timeline look like? Do you have specific milestones you hope to achieve at specific times?
That is one of my greatest vices, actually. I'm a disorganized disheveled mess who cannot maintain a schedule. Years of "groundhog days" at school made me detest a routine lifestyle. That's not to say I can't meet a deadline, it's just that my work schedule is incredibly sporadic and at a moment's whim. I did have a schedule for the album at one point, but it has since become abandoned.

Another matter is one of an A/C unit that needs replacement. I don't want to run my equipment in this soupy hot atmosphere for fear that it will damage it. Well, seeing as it's already August, recording might as well begin again in autumn because choosing who to install a new A/C unit is too strenuous for my family. Hell, the A/C's been broken for over a year already, so I don't know why they waited until the summer to actually address it again. :-(

If I were smart, I would have a timeline and milestones; alas, I'm an idiot. I do have a spreadsheet to see how much of the album is complete and if I did another crunch time recording session, I could easily finish up the lead guitars. That would leave just the keyboards and vocals remaining.

*sigh* Next time around, I'm going to track the album song by song instead of instrument by instrument. It just leaves everything in a semi-complete state when done the latter way. :yuk:

Re: New Stratovarius album: a list of demands

Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:09 am
by robocop
Post some samples. Do you know anybody else who is more involved than us about it all?!? :lol: