Stratovarius steals songs?

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kusmuk
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Stratovarius steals songs?

Post by kusmuk » Wed Nov 08, 2006 3:03 pm

Stratovarius' Black Diamond and Twilight Symphony songs seem too much inspired from Alice Cooper song Steven.

Famous intro of Black Diamond is very closer to Stevens intro. And guitar solo in Steven starting in 2:20 is very SAME as Twilight Symphonys outro solo. I'm a die hard fan of Strato and I'm so sad after these discoveries :(

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Re: Stratovarius steals songs?

Post by browneyedgirl » Wed Nov 08, 2006 3:16 pm

Its just a coincidence&just getting an idea is not stealing.
I always thought the Intro to BD resembled a Megadeth song.
But, thats the point, many musicians have songs which resemble other songs, yet are entirely different.

I would not lose any sleep over it if I were you. :roll:
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Re: Stratovarius steals songs?

Post by kusmuk » Wed Nov 08, 2006 3:20 pm

No. Maybe you can explain the intro as a resemble, but solo is SAME in every note. Did you listen the Steven song from 2:20?
browneyedgirl wrote:Its just a coincidence&just getting an idea is not stealing.
I always thought the Intro to BD resembled a Megadeth song.
But, thats the point, many musicians have songs which resemble other songs, yet are entirely different.

I would not lose any sleep over it if I were you. :roll:

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Re: Stratovarius steals songs?

Post by Maniac » Wed Nov 08, 2006 4:41 pm

OK it's not the first time that it happens. You can notice that in any band! For example Deep Purple's Black Night, or Scorpions Always Somewhere remind of other songs (Lynyrd Slynyrd and another band that I can't remember its name) The point is to try and adapt the influence you have taken from an other artist to your music. Just think, is Steven a hit of Alice Cooper? Of course not! On the other hand BD is Strato's most popular song! :wink:

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Re: Stratovarius steals songs?

Post by NeonVomit » Wed Nov 08, 2006 5:09 pm

Happens all the time.

I once wrote a song I was proud of. Turns out the riff was exactly the same as 'Cold Winter Nights' in every way, shape and form. I was rather annoyed at that.

Also, there are striking similarities between 'Alma Mater' by Moonspell and 'Dying Wish' by Anathema. And they're both big hits for each band!
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Re: Stratovarius steals songs?

Post by miditek » Wed Nov 08, 2006 5:25 pm

The estates of blues artists Willie Dixon and Memphis Minnie successfully pursued and won cases against Led Zeppelin for "Whole Lotta Love" and "When the Levee Breaks", respectively. George Harrison was also sued for his #1 "My Sweet Lord" which was allegedly copied from an old hit by the Chiffons.

With only 12 tones in the chromatic scale, there are bound to be some similarities.

I don't think that Stratovarius are what I'd call plagiarists though. Robert Plant's keyboardist sampled Zeppelin on "Tall Cool One", but could Plant possibly plagiarize himself? :D
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Re: Stratovarius steals songs?

Post by D.Murray » Wed Nov 08, 2006 6:14 pm

i think you can't call this by stealing... that's not true, the first riff you can hear everywhere, it's common classical riff and in the song "steven" is only first part in comparison with "black diamond".. i would say, Stratovarius just made better this riff, and in the middle of song "Steven", is another common clasical riff.. i think we can straight put question , where did Alice Cooper steal this two riffs from? :)

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Re: Stratovarius steals songs?

Post by stratoplayer » Wed Nov 08, 2006 6:35 pm

Considering how most metal musicians (at least power metal and to a certain extent heavy metal) are influenced by classical and neoclassical music it is not surprising they overlap sometimes. Take Will The Sun Rise? its interlude is taken straight from a Bach composition, and Malmsteen in his newest album features a song which is that interlude entirely, so don't worry about it.
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Re: Stratovarius steals songs?

Post by D.Murray » Wed Nov 08, 2006 6:40 pm

heh Mamlsteen, there we can talk about stealing :lol: but good stealing

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Re: Stratovarius steals songs?

Post by Inventariado » Thu Nov 09, 2006 7:10 am

I'm reading all this comments and some words from Jens come to my mind. I'll quote him:

"Yngwie copied JSB, Uli, Eddie, Paganini, me, Allan, and a little bit of Ritchie, and added a lot of his own stuff.

I copied JSB, John Lord, Ritchie, Yngwie, Eddie Jobson, Allan, and a little bit of Zappa, and added a lot of my own stuff.

Tolkki copied JSB, Ritchie, Iron Maiden, Yngwie, Queensryche, Helloween, and a little bit of ABBA, and added a lot of his own stuff.

JSB himself copied Buxtehude, Albinoni and other contemporaries, and added a lot of his own stuff."


Note: JSB = Johann Sebastian Bach of course.

There's also a long contribution to this matter in his web site:
Take a look on http://www.panix.com/~jens/faq-more.par

:)
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Re: Stratovarius steals songs?

Post by kusmuk » Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:53 am

Okay, inspiration or copying or else, I think these should have limits I say.

The solo in "Will the sun rise" is directly a tribute to Bach, thats ok. But please add "Steven" to your playlist and then put Black Diamond. Steven ends with its main theme, without any change, Black Diamond starts.

Thats ok, you say this is a widely used classical piece of work, so has no copyright of Alice Cooper, thats ok.

But solo in 2:20 is "imho" unforgiveable. This solo for 17 SECONDS is same in Steven song and we should be over-optimistic to believe that its a coincidence. This is no coincidence, no inspiration, same in 17 seconds in every note.

If you guys say that "okay, 17 seconds is not a problem, Malmsteen did it, Deep Purple did it, so its ok".. Hmm..

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Re: Stratovarius steals songs?

Post by MetalPlatypus » Thu Nov 09, 2006 12:36 pm

kusmuk wrote:Okay, inspiration or copying or else, I think these should have limits I say.

The solo in "Will the sun rise" is directly a tribute to Bach, thats ok. But please add "Steven" to your playlist and then put Black Diamond. Steven ends with its main theme, without any change, Black Diamond starts.

Thats ok, you say this is a widely used classical piece of work, so has no copyright of Alice Cooper, thats ok.

But solo in 2:20 is "imho" unforgiveable. This solo for 17 SECONDS is same in Steven song and we should be over-optimistic to believe that its a coincidence. This is no coincidence, no inspiration, same in 17 seconds in every note.

If you guys say that "okay, 17 seconds is not a problem, Malmsteen did it, Deep
Purple did it, so its ok".. Hmm..
Just go away. Obvious troll :lol: Don´t have anything better to do you music police :lol:

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Re: Stratovarius steals songs?

Post by kusmuk » Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:16 pm

Haha, friend, you call me Troll but I call you 'friend', stratovarius is my last ten years and thats a serious thing.
MetalPlatypus wrote:
kusmuk wrote:Okay, inspiration or copying or else, I think these should have limits I say.

The solo in "Will the sun rise" is directly a tribute to Bach, thats ok. But please add "Steven" to your playlist and then put Black Diamond. Steven ends with its main theme, without any change, Black Diamond starts.

Thats ok, you say this is a widely used classical piece of work, so has no copyright of Alice Cooper, thats ok.

But solo in 2:20 is "imho" unforgiveable. This solo for 17 SECONDS is same in Steven song and we should be over-optimistic to believe that its a coincidence. This is no coincidence, no inspiration, same in 17 seconds in every note.

If you guys say that "okay, 17 seconds is not a problem, Malmsteen did it, Deep
Purple did it, so its ok".. Hmm..
Just go away. Obvious troll :lol: Don´t have anything better to do you music police :lol:

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Re: Stratovarius steals songs?

Post by MetalPlatypus » Thu Nov 09, 2006 3:20 pm

kusmuk wrote:Haha, friend, you call me Troll but I call you 'friend', stratovarius is my last ten years and thats a serious thing.
MetalPlatypus wrote:
kusmuk wrote:Okay, inspiration or copying or else, I think these should have limits I say.

The solo in "Will the sun rise" is directly a tribute to Bach, thats ok. But please add "Steven" to your playlist and then put Black Diamond. Steven ends with its main theme, without any change, Black Diamond starts.

Thats ok, you say this is a widely used classical piece of work, so has no copyright of Alice Cooper, thats ok.

But solo in 2:20 is "imho" unforgiveable. This solo for 17 SECONDS is same in Steven song and we should be over-optimistic to believe that its a coincidence. This is no coincidence, no inspiration, same in 17 seconds in every note.

If you guys say that "okay, 17 seconds is not a problem, Malmsteen did it, Deep
Purple did it, so its ok".. Hmm..
Just go away. Obvious troll :lol: Don´t have anything better to do you music police :lol:
Is it a serious thing you troll?:) If Strato is so important to you than you say it is, then why register here and start bashing the band that has made 12 albums of music and call them stealers? Why not say something positive about Stratovarius if it means so much to you than you claim you troll? :D

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Re: Stratovarius steals songs?

Post by kusmuk » Thu Nov 09, 2006 5:12 pm

Haha, dear Troll hunter dude. I'm having a quick look about your claims:

- we HAVE TO say good things for 30 years band with x albums.
- we CANNOT criticise their songs because we didn't say anything before in site forum.

I have a little suggestion for you man, don't be a fanatic, don't be blind. Stealing is not virtuous.

In fact I'm writing down these words to official forum to hear some explanation from composer, Tolkki.
Or maybe anyone can here explain these from any interviews which I don't know.

I'm not a new guy on band commentary, to read my other comments on band for last 7 years; you can visit http://sozluk.sourtimes.org/show.asp?t= ... us/@kusmuk, if you can read turkish.

But as far as I witness, no explanation will be given and "some" blind fans don't care about this.

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Re: Stratovarius steals songs?

Post by browneyedgirl » Thu Nov 09, 2006 5:47 pm

@kusmuk, frankly people don't really care what you say. No one is going to listen&what does it matter if it is true? You have to convince about 50 million fans worldwide&thats gonna be one tough job! :lol:

@kusmuk, when your nick is reversed, its "kumsuk", were you aware of that? :D

Oh, whats the use. Why do I take the time to defend them? :(
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Re: Stratovarius steals songs?

Post by MetalPlatypus » Thu Nov 09, 2006 7:07 pm

kusmuk wrote:Haha, dear Troll hunter dude. I'm having a quick look about your claims:

- we HAVE TO say good things for 30 years band with x albums.
- we CANNOT criticise their songs because we didn't say anything before in site forum.

I have a little suggestion for you man, don't be a fanatic, don't be blind. Stealing is not virtuous.

In fact I'm writing down these words to official forum to hear some explanation from composer, Tolkki.
Or maybe anyone can here explain these from any interviews which I don't know.

I'm not a new guy on band commentary, to read my other comments on band for last 7 years; you can visit http://sozluk.sourtimes.org/show.asp?t= ... us/@kusmuk, if you can read turkish.

But as far as I witness, no explanation will be given and "some" blind fans don't care about this.
Hahaha, typical fanatic. Now how come I guessed u are turkish:) I also guessed right, u are (somekind of) music critic and without a question a very bad one. U find fault with songs, while true music lovers LISTEN and ENJOY the songs.
Although you claim you love Strato, u haven´t written NOTHING positive about them. Hahaha. So you found 2 similarities in the songs and that is in your eyes somekind of a crime and you are gonna "contact" Tolkki about that. Man, how much more arrogant can you get? Do us a favour and go back where u came from with your critics that nobody wants to hear except the person you love the most:yourself :D PS. Even though your own band cant make it, dont take it out on others;)

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pachelbel

Post by crayc » Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:19 pm

have a look at this!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pachelbel%27s_Canon

it´s one of my favourites @ wikipedia
500 years of music.... and still the same...

this is how good music works: one half you expect, one half is new to you.

if you "steal" or quote, you have to do it on a high level...

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Re: Stratovarius steals songs?

Post by D.Murray » Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:21 pm

i think talking about this theme is absolutely useless.. today is a lot of music!! almost always you compose something, you can make sure yourself, that your idea will be similar to something! there is only 12 tones..:) i'm sure that middle solo of song "steven" and outro of "twillight symphony" i've heard not les than 50times,it's so common melody and harmony and it's used by many composers singers and ....that's about it, and if "as it happens" T.T. stole this part, i think it's not something so bad.. you cannot investigate every tone, Strato music is about feeling and concretely this outro solo in "Tw.Sym." fits perfectly to this song, so why not put it in it...??? :x :)

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Re: Stratovarius steals songs?

Post by MetalPlatypus » Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:25 pm

D.Murray wrote:i think talking about this theme is absolutely useless.. today is a lot of music!! almost always you compose something, you can make sure yourself, that your idea will be similar to something! there is only 12 tones..:) i'm sure that middle solo of song "steven" and outro of "twillight symphony" i've heard not les than 50times,it's so common melody and harmony and it's used by many composers singers and ....that's about it, and if "as it happens" T.T. stole this part, i think it's not something so bad.. you cannot investigate every tone, Strato music is about feeling and concretely this outro solo in "Tw.Sym." fits perfectly to this song, so why not put it in it...??? :x :)
Trust me, it´s not worth to argue with this guy. He registered here just to tell us his "amazing discovery" and expects everybody to give him credit for that. But you are right, talking about this is useless. And its been done many times already. Its just so obvious what this guy is doing that it pisses me off. Also that Turkey stole lot of things from Greek culture and calls it their own. It´s the same thing.

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Re: Stratovarius steals songs?

Post by kusmuk » Thu Nov 09, 2006 10:42 pm

Hey, MetalPlatypus, what kind of anger is this, eh? You listen Strato's songs of peace and love, then you scream your anger of Turkey. Anyway, Strato doesn't agree with you, they came here in Turkey and had a great gig with lots of people.

I cannot say any bad things for Greeks of course, two hellen dudes came to visit izmir and I hosted them in a pleasure. We were like brothers.

Secondly, Tolkki even gives reply to criticsms on albums cover, even we talked about it HERE IN THIS FORUM for Elements Pt. 1 album in 2002. So you can be new here and can be novice ok, but please hide your racism for yourself. Thats silly.
MetalPlatypus wrote:
D.Murray wrote:i think talking about this theme is absolutely useless.. today is a lot of music!! almost always you compose something, you can make sure yourself, that your idea will be similar to something! there is only 12 tones..:) i'm sure that middle solo of song "steven" and outro of "twillight symphony" i've heard not les than 50times,it's so common melody and harmony and it's used by many composers singers and ....that's about it, and if "as it happens" T.T. stole this part, i think it's not something so bad.. you cannot investigate every tone, Strato music is about feeling and concretely this outro solo in "Tw.Sym." fits perfectly to this song, so why not put it in it...??? :x :)
Trust me, it´s not worth to argue with this guy. He registered here just to tell us his "amazing discovery" and expects everybody to give him credit for that. But you are right, talking about this is useless. And its been done many times already. Its just so obvious what this guy is doing that it pisses me off. Also that Turkey stole lot of things from Greek culture and calls it their own. It´s the same thing.

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Re: Stratovarius steals songs?

Post by kusmuk » Thu Nov 09, 2006 10:48 pm

Thank you for your kind reply,

Okay, agree with you. There are many "cute" pieces are already composed and used many times and I have no words for that. For example, first keyboard bridge in Eternity (about 0:50) seems like song Kashmir but this is okay for me. But as I say many times above, its 17 seconds man. Its "copied" from Steven or someone else older, this is a personal comment, its not okay to copy it. You can inspire it, rearrenge it but this is a direct copy. I'd expect more than that from a such quality band, Stratovarius.

Anyways, all these show me that other Strato listeners don't agree with me :) No problem.
D.Murray wrote:i think talking about this theme is absolutely useless.. today is a lot of music!! almost always you compose something, you can make sure yourself, that your idea will be similar to something! there is only 12 tones..:) i'm sure that middle solo of song "steven" and outro of "twillight symphony" i've heard not les than 50times,it's so common melody and harmony and it's used by many composers singers and ....that's about it, and if "as it happens" T.T. stole this part, i think it's not something so bad.. you cannot investigate every tone, Strato music is about feeling and concretely this outro solo in "Tw.Sym." fits perfectly to this song, so why not put it in it...??? :x :)

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Re: Stratovarius steals songs?

Post by browneyedgirl » Thu Nov 09, 2006 10:54 pm

@kusmuk, its probably the "Helen of Troy" thing. I mean, its one thing to think a guys wife is a babe, but quite another to kidnap&ravish her! :D
Boy, that incident set up some serious competition for years! :lol:


*Just trying to put alittle humor in this topic.
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Re: Stratovarius steals songs?

Post by kusmuk » Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:06 pm

Haha, dear Browneyedgirl, this (in your words) "competition" can take no longer, cause I love greeks and have no problem with 10 millions of people :)

You closely know Tolkki's racism phases, songs against war, ideas of racism, and finally Gottemgamerrung song :) But I'm not in that phases, its just silly to be a warrior behind the keyboard.

So keep yourself relaxed about this.
browneyedgirl wrote:@kusmuk, its probably the "Helen of Troy" thing. I mean, its one thing to think a guys wife is a babe, but quite another to kidnap&ravish her! :D
Boy, that incident set up some serious competition for years! :lol:


*Just trying to put alittle humor in this topic.

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Re: Stratovarius steals songs?

Post by D.Murray » Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:36 pm

KUSMUK,
can you believe, that this "stolen" idea is only chance event???? i really think it is... and although i wrote there many things how this can happen, you always jabber the same things! hmm, going to sleep....

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Re: Stratovarius steals songs?

Post by D.Murray » Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:43 pm

now playing: !! Twillight Symphony !! that's much better than some steven :twisted:
but really :roll: :!:

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Re: Stratovarius steals songs?

Post by IceBreaker » Fri Nov 10, 2006 2:39 am

kusmuk wrote:Secondly, Tolkki even gives reply to criticsms on albums cover, even we talked about it HERE IN THIS FORUM for Elements Pt. 1 album in 2002. So you can be new here and can be novice ok, but please hide your racism for yourself. Thats silly.
Just two things to mention, otherwise I don´t care about this discussion. (there has been too many like this already here...)

Mr. Tolkki has stated many times nowadays he don´t read this forum anymore, either the whole band has no interest for this place too. So, you cannot get here any explanations from the band...

Were you later on banned from this forum or why to register some years later again?
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Re: Stratovarius steals songs?

Post by browneyedgirl » Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:10 am

IceBreaker wrote:
kusmuk wrote:Secondly, Tolkki even gives reply to criticsms on albums cover, even we talked about it HERE IN THIS FORUM for Elements Pt. 1 album in 2002. So you can be new here and can be novice ok, but please hide your racism for yourself. Thats silly.
Just two things to mention, otherwise I don´t care about this discussion. (there has been too many like this already here...)

Mr. Tolkki has stated many times nowadays he don´t read this forum anymore, either the whole band has no interest for this place too. So, you cannot get here any explanations from the band.....
IB, I would not swear that the band does not read this forum ;) there is the Hidden mode, plus it would not be illegal if they took another nick to post anonymously&have privacy. Seriously, if you were a member of a band would you totally abandon the official forum&never read it at all? Think about that. ;) Also, TT made some quotes recently about posts from this forum&they were recent posts. So, IMO, I think the band does read the forum, at least sometimes! :) I mean, its only natural they would want to know how the fans feel&think on certain issues, especially regarding the band! :)
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Re: Stratovarius steals songs?

Post by kusmuk » Fri Nov 10, 2006 7:43 am

Hi IceBreaker,

I travelled back to 2004 archives and even in first screen I saw "stratovarius is rippers!" claim. So you're right, I'm not the first and it must be boring for those spent years in this forum actively.

I'm not a forum guy. I don't prefer forums, instead prefer other kind of interactive sites. But this time I thought this issue is only can repliable by band members and close fans. In fact I got valuable replies above, about cannons etc. and will think about on my ripping off claims again.

But there is a general belief that inactive forums members can't critise band unless they are trolls. Anything else in Wikipedia or other sites are not like this.

For your question : It was just hard to read a such active forum, so I left. After reinstall of the forum, seemed my account was deleted. You can find me in Strato fanbase too if it still lives. (Ah I found it, here; http://www.stratovarius.com/index2.php? ... ber=kusmuk)

IceBreaker wrote:
kusmuk wrote:Secondly, Tolkki even gives reply to criticsms on albums cover, even we talked about it HERE IN THIS FORUM for Elements Pt. 1 album in 2002. So you can be new here and can be novice ok, but please hide your racism for yourself. Thats silly.
Just two things to mention, otherwise I don´t care about this discussion. (there has been too many like this already here...)

Mr. Tolkki has stated many times nowadays he don´t read this forum anymore, either the whole band has no interest for this place too. So, you cannot get here any explanations from the band...

Were you later on banned from this forum or why to register some years later again?

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Re: Stratovarius steals songs?

Post by MetalPlatypus » Fri Nov 10, 2006 10:37 am

Hey, MetalPlatypus, what kind of anger is this, eh? You listen Strato's songs of peace and love, then you scream your anger of Turkey. Anyway, Strato doesn't agree with you, they came here in Turkey and had a great gig with lots of people.
I don´t necessarily subscribe their peace and love message. I think they never came back to Turkey because it is a dangerous country.
Secondly, Tolkki even gives reply to criticsms on albums cover, even we talked about it HERE IN THIS FORUM for Elements Pt. 1 album in 2002. So you can be new here and can be novice ok, but please hide your racism for yourself. Thats silly.
Tolkki doesn´t read this forum anymore and partly because of arrogant people like you. Plus he is in no way "obligated" to answer to your "amazing discovery" :lol: I mean what do you think music is? Get real man. Every single band has similarities in the music, sometimes on purpose, sometimes not. Big deal, get over it and get a life. Or if you do have a need to criticize, then do it in a more polite way than starting with "stratovarius steals songs?". First of all your headline is wrong, because according to your theory, Tolkki "stole" just couple of parts, not entire songs. Secondly one can make the assumption based on your headline, that strato steals entire songs on purpose. So do you really think that you will get any credits in stratovarius forum with posts like these?
ABout racism, im not a racist, but realist. What i wrote is true and a fact.

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