Riots in France&The Problems that Led To Them

[browneyedgirl]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9891709/


This story scared me, and woke me up. I do not live in France, so its problems do not bother me personally. However, I did not realize the inner turmoil this country seems to be having: skyrocketing unemployment, a growing juvenile problem, an educational system going downhill, etc.
Is it really all that bad, or is this simply a case of Media exaggeration?

All I know is that these Riots have been going on for days&its all over USA-TV News.
Can any of you from France shed any light on this story?

[Morgana]

I'm not from France, but such riots are usual in my country...

[MaFiaBoY]

I couldn't tell you if this is exaggerated or not, fortunately I do not live in this area. Hadn't I heard it on the news, I wouldn't have known about it either. But this is a vast problem. The only way for those people to draw attention on their problems (unemployment, poverty...) is to create turmoils like that, but it creates racism (when ppl see this on TV they think "Those Africans are all just carburners), which makes it more difficult for them to find a job, which makes them burn more cars, etc, etc... And this has been goin on for at least 20 years.

[NordicStorm]

Immigration is a huge problem in parts of France, there are suburbs that are essentially ghettos. Given that the immigrants aren't properly assimilated into society, massive unemployment, run down infrastructure etc, it's hardly surprising that shit would hit the fan eventually.
The situation isn't helped by minister of idiocy...sorry, minister of the interior and probable 2007 presidential contender Sarkozy running around making stupid statements and just generally being an asshole.
But hey, if all else fails, now might a good time for a sixth republic

[stratohawk]

By the way: Those riots are going on for years, but they haven't been as severe as they are now. This time I also have the impression that it has become somehow "fashionable", cool, for more young people, because they realized that they have the attention of the media.

[Heiserich]

By the way: Those riots are going on for years, but they haven't been as severe as they are now. This time I also have the impression that it has become somehow "fashionable", cool, for more young people, because they realized that they have the attention of the media.

Yes, perhaps it is fashionable for some of them... but to get to this point, that this is the only way for you to get attention, you must really have become quite desperate. I think, underlying to this is a general problem that all modern industrialized societies face today to some degree: Productivity is rising, the number of jobs are falling; more and more people are excluded from societies, where productivity and dignity are bound together in the perceptions of most people.

This won't go on like that forever. I think, the riots that you have in France today is something we all could face in the not too farest future, probably even more intense.

[browneyedgirl]

That is very frightening--that rioting&lawlessness are the only options that a certain group of people have to call attention to their plight.
In USA there have been isolated serious riots like this: in 1992 when the verdict over the Rodney King beating occured in Los Angeles&martial law was almost called. During the Viet Nam Era many isolated, but serious riots occured with loss of life in some cases, (The Kent State Masacre).

It is becoming very perilous times everywhere, all over the world&we must all be very observant to these incidents and the reality of what is occuring around us.

[MaFiaBoY]

The situation isn't helped by minister of idiocy...sorry, minister of the interior and probable 2007 presidential contender Sarkozy running around making stupid statements and just generally being an asshole.

Sarkozy won't win in 2007, because he's the one everyone thinks will win. Remember Balladur in 1995 and Jospin in 2002. If he makes it to the second turn, his followers will vote for him but everyone else will vote for the other guy because they will think "Anyone is better than Sarko". Here is a very good article by a french newspaper explaining why Sarkoy wn't be president in 2007 :

http://www.marianne-en-ligne.fr/archive ... anne.phtml

[cliff]

Can any of you from France shed any light on this story?

Well well.

I live in a kind of place like that myself.

I could write one full page about the situation, but all I can say right now, is that those riots are the results of the massive uncontroled north-african immigration from 70's til now, and of the "kindness"/"blindness" of politicians against their crimes and so on.

one good example : try to imagine how it feels to walk with your girlfriend, suddenly a group of "people" come around you, stares at you, says "we are going to fuck french girls and kick french guys out from here!", or to walk back home, and have a group of people jumping on you and kicking you almost to death just because you were smiling and accidently you looked in their direction.
I'm not overacting (many people in here knows that I'm not a kind of "stupid" person) : it happened to me, it also happened to many people where I live and the other members in here from France can confirm.

Sorry to sound so pessimistic, but the situation is even worse than it "seems". Hopefully the governement will wake up soon and send the army. That's not just a riot. It's a civil war going on.
Personnally I don't "care" much because I will move abroad in a couple of months. I just feel terribly sorry for all the other people, the parents, the grand-parents, the children and so on.

[MaFiaBoY]

I have to strongly disagree with you here cliff. As a noth-african immigrant's child, I can't let one tell that the only cause of what's happening is immigration. In the people burning cars, there is as many "white" people as aricans. You certainly are not stupid but you ARE overacting. "civil war", "send the army"... You sound like an old "beauf" who watch TF1 all day long, and vote FN "pour foutre ces sales bougnoules dehors". Really, I didn't think you were like that...

[Patricia]

I live in a kind of place like that myself.

Not me, i live in a cottage for the moment..But i should move in few months near a big town, and it is not cool to think about to move there now.

I could write one full page about the situation, but all I can say right now, is that those riots are the results of the massive uncontroled north-african immigration from 70's til now, and of the "kindness"/"blindness" of politicians against their crimes and so on.

one good example : try to imagine how it feels to walk with your girlfriend, suddenly a group of "people" come around you, stares at you, says "we are going to fuck french girls and kick french guys out from here!", or to walk back home, and have a group of people jumping on you and kicking you almost to death just because you were smiling and accidently you looked in their direction.
I'm not overacting (many people in here knows that I'm not a kind of "stupid" person) : it happened to me, it also happened to many people where I live and the other members in here from France can confirm.

I'm so sorry to hear that Cliff!
I've never live that kind of situation fortunately, but i know from other friends that it's quite common in different towns.
Indeed, only a smile can turn very bad! One of my friend (fortunately he's still alive nowadays) had a fight one time but with a white guy because he just smiled at him, so the guy wanted to stab my friend..just like that!
So my friend used some karate defense for saving his own life. And it worked.
I think that whatever is the color of the skin, violence is here, and we can see white, black, or others different people who act in that bad and sad way.

Sorry to sound so pessimistic, but the situation is even worse than it "seems". Hopefully the governement will wake up soon and send the army. That's not just a riot. It's a civil war going on.

Indeed! If the solutions are not found it will turn worse and worse.

Personnally I don't "care" much because I will move abroad in a couple of months. I just feel terribly sorry for all the other people, the parents, the grand-parents, the children and so on.

Yes, but by my side i dare to stay positive and to think that the things will be better soon! Hopefully!

[MaFiaBoY]

I live in a kind of place like that myself.

Not me, i live in a cottage for the moment..But i should move in few months near a big town, and it is not cool to think about to move there now.

Which city will you move to, Patricia ? Bordeaux, most likely. I've lived there for about six years and never got any problems. Those problems are very localied, you just hae to avoid the bad places :p

[Patricia]

I live in a kind of place like that myself.

Not me, i live in a cottage for the moment..But i should move in few months near a big town, and it is not cool to think about to move there now.

Which city will you move to, Patricia ? Bordeaux, most likely. I've lived there for about six years and never got any problems. Those problems are very localied, you just hae to avoid the bad places :p

Probably near from Bordeaux. But i've never had some problems neither when i went there. And of course, i know all the places so..
But well, i live and just let's see what's happen in a near future.
Problems are localied yes, but until when tough?
Well..

[NordicStorm]

Sarkozy won't win in 2007, because he's the one everyone thinks will win. Remember Balladur in 1995 and Jospin in 2002. If he makes it to the second turn, his followers will vote for him but everyone else will vote for the other guy because they will think "Anyone is better than Sarko".

Yeah, but that got you Chirac for an additional five years in 2002...I'm not well versed enough in French politics to have a preferred candidate, personally. I'm not particularly fond of Chirac or Sarkozy, though. I probably wouldn't like de Villepin either.

Sorry to sound so pessimistic, but the situation is even worse than it "seems". Hopefully the governement will wake up soon and send the army. That's not just a riot. It's a civil war going on.

Indeed! If the solutions are not found it will turn worse and worse.

I don't think "sending in the army" would be a good solution though. To me that sounds like escalating the conflict, without addressing the underlying problems at all.

Much like hurricane Katrina shocked a lot of people by revealing that there are, in fact, a large number of people living in poverty in America today, perhaps these riots will serve as a wake-up call for the powers that be? Although, with the esteemed Mr. Sarkozy apparently being on top of things, perhaps I'm being a bit optimistic...

[Patricia]

I don't think "sending in the army" would be a good solution though. To me that sounds like escalating the conflict, without addressing the underlying problems at all.

Much like hurricane Katrina shocked a lot of people by revealing that there are, in fact, a large number of people living in poverty in America today, perhaps these riots will serve as a wake-up call for the powers that be? Although, with the esteemed mr. Sarkozy apparently being on top of things, perhaps I'm being a bit optimistic...

I also hope that it will be a kind of wake-up for the politicals and that they will try to find the good solutions to these problems.
I'm an optimistic myself, so that's why i said above, that i dare to think that the things will be better soon.
And for Sarkozy i think he won't win some points for the next presidential elections...

[MaFiaBoY]

Sorry to sound so pessimistic, but the situation is even worse than it "seems". Hopefully the governement will wake up soon and send the army. That's not just a riot. It's a civil war going on.

Indeed! If the solutions are not found it will turn worse and worse.

I don't think "sending in the army" would be a good solution though. To me that sounds like escalating the conflict, without addressing the underlying problems at all.

EXACTLY !

Much like hurricane Katrina shocked a lot of people by revealing that there are, in fact, a large number of people living in poverty in America today, perhaps these riots will serve as a wake-up call for the powers that be?

The governments have always known there were problems like that but when it was a left-wing government they said "Oh, it's terrible ! Those people who burn cars are just victims, let's give them more and more money." and when it was a right-wing government, the first thig he did was cancelling everything the left government befor had done (some of it being actually good) and then sending more and more policement who act just the same way as the thugs they're supposed to fight : people respect them because they're afraid of them. Respect by fear is precisely what Hitler did, and today's "racailles", as Sarko called them, and policement do just the same.

Although, with the esteemed mr. Sarkozy apparently being on top of things, perhaps I'm being a bit optimistic...

Soon Sarko won't control anything anymore


Pour les français, je vous invite à vous procurer le numéro de cette semaine de Marianne, dont l'édito de notre cher JFK est d'une pertinence rare dans la presse de nos jours...

[cliff]

In the people burning cars, there is as many "white" people as aricans.

How can you be so sure about that ?
Have you been there, watching every people taking part on the riots?
Have you already seen, at least ONCE, a sort of riot like that ?
I think I have, just in front of my house, and many times. And enough for me to make my own conclusions.

You certainly are not stupid but you ARE overacting. "civil war", "send the army"...

What is the solution you would offer to solve the problem?
Think twice, the situation is really near to a war. What would you do ?
Ask politicians to and meet and talk about the problems for a couple of weeks, while there are more and more cars, buildings, schoold burning ?

You sound like an old "beauf" who watch TF1 all day long, and vote FN "pour foutre ces sales bougnoules dehors". Really, I didn't think you were like that...

Well? I don't really watch TF1 and don't think like you just wrote.
Actually, to be totally honest with you, I don't give a shit about what you might think about me. You dunno anything of me at all.

[browneyedgirl]

This is an interesting discussion, but I am so thankful I do not live amongst the riots&the animosity, socially speaking. Hopefully, this will shortly be resolved in a civilized manner!

[MaFiaBoY]

This is an interesting discussion, but I am so thankful I do not live amongst the riots&the animosity, socially speaking.

Same here. But living in the country creates some problems too. Like you hvae to drive one hour or more to find a decent record-shop (not to mention 7 or 8 for a neurosurgeon )

[ac666]

Not living in France, I can't really comment on the situation other than how sad it is to see. But the mention of race in the riots doesn't sit right with me. It's ALWAYS got far more do with the socio-economic situation than the colour of one's skin; obviously it is generally harder to make a decent living in a new country in this day and age of automated overkill.

Even in my country , Australia, which is generally regarded as a safe type of place, we have similar problems. We have riots every now and then in Sydney (my nearest large city). The two main examples that stand out in my mind are the riots in Macquarie Fields and Redfern. In Macquarie Fields, the rioters were white Anglo-Saxon, in Redfern, they were aboriginals.

What did they have in common? Low employment prospects, little prospect for improvement and the areas are neglected by government officials. This is a global problem, and the skyrocketing cost of living has created desperate need in places where it should not be.

If governments fail to take notice of this, global class war will erupt - perhaps these riots are merely the first skirmishes. I hope like anything this is not the case, but I am a fairly pessimistic person.

[Jester]

Violence is violence, and destruction is destruction.

Nothing should excuse this type of behavior, in France, the US, Russia, or anywhere else in the world. This kind of shit just gets old. We don't need to coddle criminals, which is exactly what you are when you destroy public property, or the property of others who worked hard to get what they have. Instead of crying for those who were out destroying things, maybe we should be crying for the people who can't drive to work tomorrow because their car has been burnt to a crisp, or for those whose homes and (or) apartments were burned to the ground.

There are other ways to get your point across. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr did more to expose stupidity, bigotry, and injustice than anyone in my memory. He did so without throwing rocks, molotov cocktails, or setting anything on fire.

Sorry, but this is how I see it.


Jesse

[cliff]

Those riots had been going on since 10 nights now, and they are becoming bigger and bigger (reaching more and more cities).

Everything started last week, when 3 "people" were chased by few policemen. To escape from them, they went to hide themselves in a electric power central (or wharever is the name in english). 2 of them died because of that (poor of them, they hadn't seen the huge panel "electric shock, risk of death"). The 3rd one went to tell to other people "this is because of the police!", and they were pissed off and started to burn cars and so on.

This is not the first time that such a thing happens. Not far from last month, 2 "people" stole a car, used it to mug a store, then the police started to chase them, but those "people", they had an accident (they were driving too fast, of course, to escape from the police car), they died, and then the "people" started to burn many cars, one policestation and other stuffs, telling that it's the policemen who killed them.
What kind of attitude is that ? What kind of country allow this to happen ?
They just don't want the police, they want to make their own rules.

Something else happened the same day that those riots started, but I'm not sure that the newspapers and news reports from abroad talked about it (so I am) : one guy was with his wife and his little daughter in one of those "guetto", to take pictures of some street lamps. Few "people" from those guetto, they came in order to steal his photocamera, and to get it, they hit the guy, and the poor man died in one minute, in front of his wife and his daughter.
That kind of story, I hear every day in the place where I live.
For ex, some "people" from my district, they used to wait in front of a cash machine until elderly people get their cash, and then, they hit and kick them in order to get their money. One old woman, she almost passed away because of that, and those gangsters, they went in jail for one month, and then, they were told "ok, you can leave. but please don't do that again, this is bad!".
One fucking month, to almost kill someone ? And at the same time, they put people in jail for 18 months if they don't pay their tax on time! What the f ?

Back to the riots. Those "people" started burning cars at first, then they started to throw stones on firemen, now they shot on policemen, burn policestations, plus buses (with people inside !), shops and schools... what is next ?

Another one fact to those riots is when Sarkozy said "we're going to clean those people from the rabble ('racaille').
Those "people" got angry, pretending that the word "racaille" is racist or something. This is a big liar, this word had been existed for a long time, and its meaning is "bad guy, doing crimes and so on".
How do they want to be called ? The "Guetto's Angels" ?

No matter if people like Sarkozy or not, if they think that bringing the army is a good idea or not, something MUST be done, and really quick.
Are they going to wait until there is nothing left in here or what ?

And one last word for Mafiaboy : don't call me racist. I just bring facts.

[NordicStorm]

No one is excusing their behaviour by trying to understand what exactly their beef is. If someone commits a crime, of course they should go to jail and of course it should be a priority of the government to maintain law and order.
But thinking that throwing them all in jail will solve anything in the long term is incredibly short-sighted. The underlying problems will persist, as will the violence.
Just because you're tough on crime doesn't mean you have to be stupid on crime.

[cliff]

But thinking that throwing them all in jail will solve anything in the long term is incredibly short-sighted. The underlying problems will persist, as will the violence.

Of course not. But on the other hand, if you close your eyes on such crimes, 1/ the citizen will feel that there is no justice anymore => growing of Extreme Right. 2/ the people committing those crimes will commit more and more.

And this is exactly what's going on in France.

[Patricia]

I remember when the last presidential elections were there, already people started to vote for the Extreme right, because of all this insecurity...and a lot of others people went to the streets for manifesting against it..
That's why a lot of people to the second tour precipitated to vote for Chirac and that he won with 82% of the votes.

I'm a bit afraid that the "%" vote in France of Extreme right could grow more and more for the next presidential elections. If anything is done in a social and respectuous way very quick, it will happen, i mean that people want more justice and then they'll vote in that Extreme right way.

[Heiserich]

@ cliff: I'm afraid, it is quite a normal human reaction to categorize people, especially when you've been a victim of violence and crime yourself. But however, this is always unjust. As I read in the newspaper today, the vast majority of the muslim inhabitants of the banlieus are strictly against these violent riots. Actually, they are suffering from this themselves.

Of course you cannot let violent guys like these run around and commit crimes as they please. They have to be punished, because it's just no way of protesting against social problems to burn schools, playschools and busses (especially not with person in them). There actually is no excuse for that, but it's important to care about the reasons why somebody gets to this point. Noone is born as "rabble".

The underlying problems have to be adressed, and that means - my opinion - thoroughly rethinking about the way our polities and economies are organized. Capitalism hasn't fallen from the sky, it's no gift or order from god to live in a market economy. If it doesn't work, we should be free enough to rethink it. No reason to make a dogma out of this.

[MaFiaBoY]

Everything started last week, when 3 "people" were chased by few policemen. To escape from them, they went to hide themselves in a electric power central (or wharever is the name in english). 2 of them died because of that (poor of them, they hadn't seen the huge panel "electric shock, risk of death"). The 3rd one went to tell to other people "this is because of the police!", and they were pissed off and started to burn cars and so on.

And the worst is that those 3 people were NOT chased by the police. They just thought they were... And, sorry but I'll keep calling you a racist as long as you say "people". The quotes have a ver pejorative effect, like if those people were not human or something.

Of course not. But on the other hand, if you close your eyes on such crimes, 1/ the citizen will feel that there is no justice anymore => growing of Extreme Right. 2/ the people committing those crimes will commit more and more.

And this is exactly what's going on in France.

This is 100% true. Seems our politics aren't able to find a right compromise between the left government's laxism (I don't know if the word exists in english) and the right's "just send the CRS"-attitude. It's really a shame.

[cliff]

@ cliff: I'm afraid, it is quite a normal human reaction to categorize people, especially when you've been a victim of violence and crime yourself. But however, this is always unjust. As I read in the newspaper today, the vast majority of the muslim inhabitants of the banlieus are strictly against these violent riots. Actually, they are suffering from this themselves.

Of course, and I entirely agree with you.
However, you misunderstood what I meant (and I'm sorry for that).
I meant that most of the people who do that are muslims.
I NEVER meant that ALL the muslims do that!

And, sorry but I'll keep calling you a racist as long as you say "people". The quotes have a ver pejorative effect, like if those people were not human or something.

You really seem to look for every escuse to call me a racist!
I used those quotes because I didn't know how to call them, as "racaille" is a forbidden word and I am totally against calling them "the youngsters" (les jeunes), like the media calls them, because it would means that every young people are like that, and that's not true. So "people", with those quotes, had a meaning : "replace this word but whatever you want" (like %people% or $people$).

One little thing : you mentionned "people", be treated as humans : what do you personally think of the fact that those people throw stones on firemen (the people who are meant to save life and protect citizen, and risk their own life every day) and burn primary school ?
No matter how angry someone can be, no matter how bad the situation is, firemen, schools, hospitals, cemeteries and religion buildings (like mosquée, church or whatever) should NEVER be hurt.
Do you call someone killing or hitting a fireman, for fun, a human being ? I don't.

[MaFiaBoY]

And, sorry but I'll keep calling you a racist as long as you say "people". The quotes have a ver pejorative effect, like if those people were not human or something.

You really seem to look for every escuse to call me a racist!
I used those quotes because I didn't know how to call them, as "racaille" is a forbidden word and I am totally against calling them "the youngsters" (les jeunes), like the media calls them, because it would means that every young people are like that, and that's not true. So "people", with those quotes, had a meaning : "replace this word but whatever you want" (like %people% or $people$).

One little thing : you mentionned "people", be treated as humans : what do you personally think of the fact that those people throw stones on firemen (the people who are meant to save life and protect citizen, and risk their own life every day) and burn primary school ?
No matter how angry someone can be, no matter how bad the situation is, firemen, schools, hospitals, cemeteries and religion buildings (like mosquée, church or whatever) should NEVER be hurt.
Do you call someone killing or hitting a fireman, for fun, a human being ? I don't.

OK, so I misunderstood the quotes, all my apologies And I also think that throwing stones on firemen and such things are the worst things possible and should be severely punished. BUT it doesn't change anything to the fact those people are human from the biological point of view. Hitler WAS human, Staline WAS human as well and those people who burn cars are also humans. Evil ones maybe, but still humans.

[cliff]

BUT it doesn't change anything to the fact those people are human from the biological point of view. Hitler WAS human, Staline WAS human as well and those people who burn cars are also humans. Evil ones maybe, but still humans.

Well, it depends what meaning do you give to "humans".
Humans can be a human being = someone alive.
but it also has a second meaning, for ex "who shows humanity" = who cares of others (like a humanitarian mission, to help people in need for ex in Africa or India). Then, I would not call any of those "people" (expecially Hitler) a human.