WWIII -?

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Shurik
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Re: WWIII -?

Post by Shurik » Mon Aug 07, 2006 10:09 am

Israel is condemned for doing its best to follow the rules of the Geneva convention while nothing is said of Hezbollah violating virtually every clause of the protocol, in terms of the rules of engagment, identification, and keeping distance from the civilians.
Actually, Amnesty International declared that Hizballa commits war crimes by deliberately shooting into civilian areas after visiting destroyed houses in Carmiel and destroyed hospital in Nahariya. However, I bet that it will have absolutely no impact on the media because it's damn fun to blame everything on Israel and pay no attention on what's going on here.
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Re: WWIII -?

Post by NeonVomit » Mon Aug 07, 2006 10:28 am

Why do you continue to believe I sympathise with Hizbollah when I've repeatedly said that I have nothing but contempt for them? I have said, again and again, that what they're doing is worse than what Israel is doing, it's just that you wouldn't expect anything more from a terrorist organisation. They're behaving exactly as one would expect them to.

I don't think anyone in their right mind could support Hizbollah's actions. That is a non-issue, and one not even worth discussing. Accusing Hizbollah of war crimes is like saying Hitler was a bad man, or that the sky is blue. "Tell us something we don't know!"

I have said many times that I'm angry at both sides in this conflict. Please don't overlook that, it's a rather fundamental point. I didn't give the example of my dad's friend for no reason.
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Re: WWIII -?

Post by Heiserich » Mon Aug 07, 2006 11:19 am

Shurik wrote:This may sound bad, but after almost a month of about 10 sirens per day, ruined semester and any other things I really don't care about rights of the citizens of the country that declared war on my country.
But you should… The civilians that are hit by the IDF are not the ones who declared war on your country. They (or at least the vast majority of them) are just normal people who are standing between to fighting parties without contributing anything to the conflict. I can’t believe that you don’t care for the death of innocent children, just because they are Lebanese citizen. In the first place, they are children, not parts of a warfaring nation
MetalAngel wrote: The real thing is to think about the consequences of telling that Israel is violating human rights : that's bringing to terrorist organisations as Al Qaeda a very precious support on a silver plate. And that's playing the game of radical muslims. :roll: You should be more opened and going more into the real facts and not to state about some false or fake informations.
And NO, I'm not afraid by real discussions. I'm just pissed off by people's reactions to always criticize what Israel does or doesn't. No one has who doesn't live in there has the right to invade into Israeli inner politic. They only defend themselves against terrorism and that's normal.
IMO, violations of human rights should always be criticized, no matter who commits them for what reason and whatever extremists try to use this criticism for. If you believe in human rights as an UNIVERSAL value, there can be no excuse for violating them, no matter if the victims are radicals, terrorists, extremists or whatever. Of course the terrorists of the Hizbollah who began the conflict have to be defeated. And as long as they are combattants, there is no problem with that in terms of human rights. However, every party to the conflict has to do everything possible to avoid the loss of innocent civilians; it doesn’t seem to me, that the IDF is really doing that. Therefor it deserves to be criticized.
And what about Lebanese people who have kidnapped three israeli soldiers and killed them? Isn't that violation of human rights?? :roll:
Of course it is. Noone wants to excuse the deeds of the Hizbollah. They are terrorists, they target civilians, they don’t give a damn about human rights. For that they deserve to be punished or, as long as they are combattants, even killed. However, you cannot blame ordinary lebanese people for the crimes commited by the Hizbollah. The violations of human rights commited by one of the parties to the conflict are by no means an excuse for the violations of human rights commited by the other one. I don’t expect the Israeli government to inactively watch its citizens being killed by katjuscha-rockets. Of course Israel has the right to defend itself. But it has NOT the right to shoot on every living human being on lebanese territory. Especially because Israel is a modern western democracy I expect them to respect the geneva convention, the human rights of the civilian population and the commensurability of the measns they use.
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Re: WWIII -?

Post by MetalAngel » Mon Aug 07, 2006 3:15 pm

Heiserich wrote:If you believe in human rights as an UNIVERSAL value, there can be no excuse for violating them, no matter if the victims are radicals, terrorists, extremists or whatever.
For me, the World would be better if all the terrorists were dead. That's all! And I don't consider "radicals, terrorists, extremists" as victims when they are killed, but as shit. They are shit even after their death. We can't define them as "humans" at all. They kill for their religion and not to defend the civilians (as Israel does).
Heiserich wrote: But it has NOT the right to shoot on every living human being on lebanese territory.
Almost all the people in Lebanon support or protect the Hezbollah and that's why Israël cannot make what the armies call "clean war" by doing surgery strikes. That's impossible as almost every one in there is used (and is volonteer for that) as a human shield...But to defend your country you must kill all the enemies, even if it can costs some innocent lives. That's the "kill or be killed" principle. I would like to see you in the same situation : would you hesitate to protect your family if the only solution to stop all this was to go to the neighbour's place and to kill them? That's the jungle law, man, that God brought in this world. :roll: The thing that Israeli people want is to live in peace, but how can they live in peace if they are attacked every day? I understand Israeli people at 500%. And as Ehud Olmert said, Israel will stop their strikes ONLY if Hezbollah stops its crimes against innocent people.
And remember : Israel won't never surrender. They follow the "eye for an eye" principle. And has the right to do that until they can live in peace.

Btw, I'm not for the war. I'm a guy who would like wars have never existed at all and peace should live into this World. That could be great and wonderful if all the people on this planet could unite and become one. But, actually, it's impossible to do otherwise to protect both Israel and the World, until religion disappears.
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Re: WWIII -?

Post by NeonVomit » Mon Aug 07, 2006 4:19 pm

MetalAngel wrote:But, actually, it's impossible to do otherwise to protect both Israel and the World, until religion disappears.
Agreed.

Only when organised religion as a political and social force vanishes, will the world truly know peace.
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Re: WWIII -?

Post by Heiserich » Mon Aug 07, 2006 4:43 pm

MetalAngel wrote: For me, the World would be better if all the terrorists were dead. That's all! And I don't consider "radicals, terrorists, extremists" as victims when they are killed, but as shit. They are shit even after their death. We can't define them as "humans" at all.
So you don't believe in human rights as an universal value. Well, I have to accept that, but I think your very wrong with that.
Almost all the people in Lebanon support or protect the Hezbollah and that's why Israël cannot make what the armies call "clean war" by doing surgery strikes. That's impossible as almost every one in there is used (and is volonteer for that) as a human shield...
Come on, you just told me not to believe everything that "anti-israeli" media tells us. But you obviously totally believe in israeli propaganda. All (or almost all) the lebanese civilians are keen on destroying Israel and have nothing else to do with their lifes than providing their bodies as human shields for the Hizbollah? Do you really believe that? And again, what about the dead children? Are they born as terrorists? With such arguments you can justify every single atrocity on earth. It's not that simple.
I would like to see you in the same situation : would you hesitate to protect your family if the only solution to stop all this was to go to the neighbour's place and to kill them? That's the jungle law, man, that God brought in this world. :roll: [...] They follow the "eye for an eye" principle.
The jungle law that god brought into this world? Well, I'm not really a christian (still thinking about that since quite a long time already), but as far as I know it was something like love and forgiveness what Jesus told us. BTW, the eye-for-an-eye motive means: Do to the others what they did to you. Israel doesn't primarily hit the culprits, and the death toll on the lebanese side is ten times as high as the one on the israeli side. One eye for ten eyes was not what's standing in the old testament...
Btw, I'm not for the war. I'm a guy who would like wars have never existed at all and peace should live into this World. That could be great and wonderful if all the people on this planet could unite and become one.
Well, at least in that point we seem to have the same point of view :wink:
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Re: WWIII -?

Post by miditek » Mon Aug 07, 2006 5:20 pm

MetalAngel wrote:
Heiserich wrote:If you believe in human rights as an UNIVERSAL value, there can be no excuse for violating them, no matter if the victims are radicals, terrorists, extremists or whatever.
MetalAngel wrote:For me, the World would be better if all the terrorists were dead. That's all! And I don't consider "radicals, terrorists, extremists" as victims when they are killed, but as shit. They are shit even after their death. We can't define them as "humans" at all. They kill for their religion and not to defend the civilians (as Israel does).
Sadly, no country or principality is immune from terror. I agree with your assessment that all terrorists must be destroyed. Unfortunately, there is no quick fix or magic bullet to these problems.

If the Lebanese army and Hezbollah were truly concerned about the Lebanese civilians, they would help their citizens, and not place them in harm's way.
Heiserich wrote: But it has NOT the right to shoot on every living human being on lebanese territory.
MetalAngel wrote:Almost all the people in Lebanon support or protect the Hezbollah and that's why Israël cannot make what the armies call "clean war" by doing surgery strikes. That's impossible as almost every one in there is used (and is volonteer for that) as a human shield...
If 85% (as one recent poll suggests) of the Lebanese people support Hezbollah, then they are bringing destruction upon themselves. That is completely crazy. No wars are ever completely clean, as history illustrates. That should underscore the importance of statecraft and diplomacy; because if they fail, civilians will most definitely suffer.

MetalAngel wrote:But to defend your country you must kill all the enemies, even if it can costs some innocent lives. That's the "kill or be killed" principle. I would like to see you in the same situation : would you hesitate to protect your family if the only solution to stop all this was to go to the neighbour's place and to kill them?
An accurate assessment, MetalAngel. To win wars, the enemy must be brought to its knees, and the punishment must be so severe that the enemy sues for peace. For example, Germany and Japan were so devastated following WWII that they have not started a war with anyone in over 60 years. They learned that their past behavior was not acceptable. Churchill had an interesting quote that was worth mentioning;

"The Hun is always either at your feet or at your throat".

I am very pleased that modern Germany has not only recovered, but is also peaceful,successful, and eventually made Churchill's initially accurate assessment obsolete.

Wars, unlike elections, cannot be won if public opinion polls are the barometer for success. The media are clearly biased against Israel. The media seems to think it can convince everyone that Lebanon is a victim of Israeli "aggression", and that just reeks of hypocrisy. The UN wants a cease fire? Guess what, so does Israel!

But Israel cannot accept anything less than the permanent dismantling of Hezbollah and for the attacks to stop. Israel can be taken for its word; as MetalAngel pointed out Olhmert's words; stop the attacks and Israel will stop its attacks.

Anything less, as Shurick pointed out, will be perceived as weakness, and will only invite more trouble in the future. Hezbollah cannot be permitted to regroup and to resupply.
MetalAngel wrote:That's the jungle law, man, that God brought in this world. :roll: The thing that Israeli people want is to live in peace, but how can they live in peace if they are attacked every day? I understand Israeli people at 500%.
Yes, definitely. Israel has had almost daily attacks in one form or another for the last 59 years! Does anyone not believe that they are sick and tired of all of these attacks? Who wouldn't be? They made peace treaties, negotiated, evacuated territories, and made great strides. Unfortunately, it seems that nothing Israel does is ever "enough"; and that somehow it needs to do more to ensure peace with people that do not want peace.
MetalAngel wrote:And as Ehud Olmert said, Israel will stop their strikes ONLY if Hezbollah stops its crimes against innocent people. And remember : Israel won't never surrender. They follow the "eye for an eye" principle. And has the right to do that until they can live in peace.
I believe that Hezbollah's days are numbered, and that very soon, Nasarallah will reach the martyr status that he seems to long for. His gamble has backfired on him, and now it is time to pay the piper, so to speak.
MetalAngel wrote:Btw, I'm not for the war. I'm a guy who would like wars have never existed at all and peace should live into this World. That could be great and wonderful if all the people on this planet could unite and become one. But, actually, it's impossible to do otherwise to protect both Israel and the World, until religion disappears.
I would say that only a very, very slim minority of people in any country would actually want war. Lunatics. General Guderian of the German army remarked in his memoirs (Panzer Leader) that not one single German general wanted to go to war in 1939. In fact, Guderian advised against it.

He felt that Germany had obtained its rightful place through diplomacy and thought the war was completely unnecessary. The Third Reich was a prime example of what happens when gangsters from the gutter are placed in positions of power.

Calling for the destruction of an entire people will only result in further tragedy.
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Re: WWIII -?

Post by MetalAngel » Mon Aug 07, 2006 5:23 pm

Heiserich wrote:So you don't believe in human rights as an universal value. Well, I have to accept that, but I think your very wrong with that.
I don't believe in human rights as an universal value for the simple and good reason that terrorists are violating human rights to exist and to live by killing innocent people. Why should those criminals be protected by human rights when they rape these rights? :roll:
Come on, you just told me not to believe everything that "anti-israeli" media tells us. But you obviously totally believe in israeli propaganda.
Hehe, these informations came not from the israeli side but from french news (which are not specially pro-israeli). But, man has to sort good and fake informations, to read between the lines. Perhaps the people who has the same point of view as yours would open the eyes if they'd sorted these informations...:wink:
All (or almost all) the lebanese civilians are keen on destroying Israel and have nothing else to do with their lifes than providing their bodies as human shields for the Hizbollah?
Both in TV and by some contacts that I have there (in Lebanon), they all confirmed me that the majority of people of this country thinks that Hezbollah (and Nasrallah) is a good organisation that gives them food and all that they need to have a correct life...the same thing happened in Germany a little bit more than 60 years ago, when german people thought the same about Nazis and Hitler. People had not learn anything from a not so distant history...this kind of thinking is dangerous, you know. Now, I read an article on a french newspaper which is very worrying : 95% of the Lebanese population is ready to fight for Hezbollah and to protect this organisation even if they must to give their lives for that. Is that a thinking of innocent people? :roll:
Do you really believe that? And again, what about the dead children? Are they born as terrorists? With such arguments you can justify every single atrocity on earth. It's not that simple.
To see dead children is tragic and very sad. But to see children involved in a rasistic and anti-semitic demonstration against israeli people and having a weapon in their little hands, in Palestinia, is maybe more cruel view, because these children lost completely their precious innocence. And in some of documentaries realised by a french journalist, who is totally against Israel (Karl Zero) and who have interviewed only terrorists and never israeli representatives, I saw children (12 years old) telling that they hate all the Western world and that they will kill people who are not muslims. Are these words coming from (innocent) children? :roll:
The jungle law that god brought into this world? Well, I'm not really a christian (still thinking about that since quite a long time already), but as far as I know it was something like love and forgiveness what Jesus told us. BTW, the eye-for-an-eye motive means: Do to the others what they did to you. Israel doesn't primarily hit the culprits, and the death toll on the lebanese side is ten times as high as the one on the israeli side. One eye for ten eyes was not what's standing in the old testament...
Well, that's not only a christian point of view, because myself is believer but I'm not practising. This "law of the jungle" is something created by the Nature. Life is going like that.
Forgiveness has nothing to do with terrorists and Hezbollah. Theses monsters can't be forgiven because the way they act can't be forgiven.
And I don't agree with the words that "the death toll on the lebanese side is ten times as high as the one on the israeli side. One eye for ten eyes was not what's standing in the old testament...", simply because jews have suffered a million times more death all over the centuries (the diaspora caused by the Romans, the Enquiry, the Shoah) than all the suffer that Lebanese people can undergo now. Why the people always see the Evil only on the Jews and Israeli side? :roll:
Btw, the christians and the muslims have surely more things and more slaughters and killings to reproach themselves than the jews all over the history...and in so far as I know, Jesus Christ has never told to kill the Jews and christian people tend to forget that Jesus, their prophet, was a Jew...That's why they shouldn't criticize the Jews and Israel and spit on them.
Well, at least in that point we seem to have the same point of view :wink:
Good.
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Re: WWIII -?

Post by Shurik » Mon Aug 07, 2006 7:41 pm

Especially because Israel is a modern western democracy I expect them to respect the geneva convention, the human rights of the civilian population and the commensurability of the measns they use.
Well, as far as I'm familiar with Geneva convention, Israel respects it ... The other side, however, does not respect it, but what can you expect from terrorist organization ... Again, as a former sodier in IDF I can assure you that deliberately targeting civilians is not IDF's policy ...

Offtopic part:
General Guderian of the German army remarked in his memoirs (Panzer Leader) that not one single German general wanted to go to war in 1939. In fact, Guderian advised against it.
German blitzkrieg tactics were a brainchild of Guderian. I woudn't trust his memoirs in this matter because he was writing them while in US captivity and he certainly wanted to present himself as an innocent soldier who was just following orders. He wasn't an innocent soldier - the forces that he commanded took Kiev in september 1941 and and grave violations of every possible article in Geneva convention took place there. His forces are responsible of executing thousands of Soviet POWs, of Babiy Yar massacre happened during that time and by SS units that were part of his force and of many more ...

Many german generals wrote similar memoirs but none of them was entirely clean. Example - general Erich von Manstein was a witness in Nuremberg trials, but he was part of an army group that also had SS Totenkopf division. This division is responsible of some of the most horrible crimes that were done during WW2 and there's no way he din't know what this division was doing. Manstein got 18 years for commiting war crimes but was after just 4 years due to his health and after his release he was a military advisor to Western Germany's government and was involved in NATO. Also, there's a nice quote of him in Wikipedia:
Manstein's adjutant Alexander Stahlberg reported to Bryan Mark Rigg (author of "Hitler’s Jewish Soldiers") the following: Stahlberg pressed von Manstein about the huge numbers of Jews being slaughtered, von Manstein fixed him with a stare. "Do you really believe that?" the field marshal said. Stahlberg said he did. "Well, if this really happened," Manstein said, "they're only Jews."
Another example is Wilhelm Mohnke, SS general. He also wrote memoirs and also said there that was an innocent soldier and was just following orders, but his SS division was responsible of executing British and Canadian POWs during invasion of Normandy. He spent 10 years in Soviet captivity and british government tried to prosecute him for war crimes until the late 1980s, it wasn't completely proven that he actually gave the order to execute the prisoners.
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Re: WWIII -?

Post by miditek » Mon Aug 07, 2006 10:59 pm

Shurik wrote:German blitzkrieg tactics were a brainchild of Guderian. I woudn't trust his memoirs in this matter because he was writing them while in US captivity and he certainly wanted to present himself as an innocent soldier who was just following orders. He wasn't an innocent soldier - the forces that he commanded took Kiev in september 1941 and and grave violations of every possible article in Geneva convention took place there. His forces are responsible of executing thousands of Soviet POWs, of Babiy Yar massacre happened during that time and by SS units that were part of his force and of many more ...
I don't think that Guderian was innocent, nor Manstein, von Weichs, or a whole host of them, for that matter. I am well aware of Babi-Yar, which makes me sick when I think of it, and other terrible things, and believe that the Heer (army) was in no way innocent, either. Sorry if you took it that way. :(

Guderian and Manstein were indeed the originators of Blitzkrieg tactics, and it is true that he did write his memoirs while a POW, and surely wanted to present himself as a "good" German. The General staff made a deal with the devil (Hitler), and their complicity cannot be questioned.

I did believe Guderian though in the point that he and many of the generals did not want war (at least Hitler's idea of it), and was probably speaking as a father with two sons that were going to the front, and he also spoke of the sacrifices that many parents were to make. Rommel, Stupenagel, Graf von Stauffenberg (a colonel) and many other officers were executed on Hitler's orders.

The generals that did express a desire to avoid war in no way absolves the ones that did commit atrocities, or permitted them to occur under their command.

Closer to the subject at hand, the situation in the Middle East seems eerily familiar; particularly the rhetoric coming from Tehran, as well as the Hitler Youth type groups that are being raised by Hamas and Hezbollah- teaching their children to hate in and of itself is a crime worthy of death, in my opinion.


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Re: WWIII -?

Post by Shurik » Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:18 am

Closer to the subject at hand, the situation in the Middle East seems eerily familiar; particularly the rhetoric coming from Tehran, as well as the Hitler Youth type groups that are being raised by Hamas and Hezbollah- teaching their children to hate in and of itself is a crime worthy of death, in my opinion.
There's also another similarity - Europe's reaction to the situation in Iran. As if 70 years didn't pass - Europe tries again to talk with the guy who impersonates Hitler, using the same rhetorics.
Sorry if you took it that way.
It's OK, I was just saying that none of them was really innocent.
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Re: WWIII -?

Post by stratoplayer » Tue Aug 08, 2006 3:17 am

IMO no general is innocent, simply because they are trained to be so, but one thing is being a militant the other is wanting to go to war, which is why all of those generals were screwed, they have to follow orders, hell how many of the soldiers were executed simply becaues of disobediance. But I digress.

From my point of view, either Israel wipes out the terrorist organizations and completely takes away the muslim fighting spirit or this will become a long and bloody war of attrition, there is no other way from my perspective.
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Re: WWIII -?

Post by Shurik » Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:10 pm

From my point of view, either Israel wipes out the terrorist organizations and completely takes away the muslim fighting spirit or this will become a long and bloody war of attrition, there is no other way from my perspective.
This is why it's so important not to give Hizballa or Lebanon anything that can be concidered as victory - not a single cm of land, not prisoners, nothing. It's like cancer - if you don't eliminate every single cell, it will grow again. It's also Lebanon's interest to kick terrorists out of their land but Seniora prefers to cry like a little girl rather than stand tall and proud and tell Hizballa and their masters to get the fuck out of Lebanon. If he's afraid (understandable, concidering what happened to Rafik Hariri and probably will happen to everyone in Lebanon who said even one word against Hizballa), he must ask USA and Europe to support and help him.

BTW, here's a good article about Europe's part in current conflict:
http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=10182
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Re: WWIII -?

Post by Bathory Killcraft » Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:16 pm

stratoplayer wrote:From my point of view, either Israel wipes out the terrorist organizations and completely takes away the muslim fighting spirit or this will become a long and bloody war of attrition, there is no other way from my perspective.
From my point of view the only way is to nuke the whole Middle East from Israel to Pakistan and sink it at least 1000m below sea level. In that way a new sea will be created where we can go surfing. Only problem is, there'll be huge amount of radioctivity present so we won't be able to enjoy surf as much but we'll think something about it.

This is the ONLY solution. No Israel, No Arab countries - NO PROBLEM.
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Re: WWIII -?

Post by MetalManiac » Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:22 pm

But the truth is, as long as there is Israel, there will be terrorist activity too. It can't be eliminated. From my point of view the whole war thing is completely in vain.
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Re: WWIII -?

Post by Shurik » Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:30 pm

Bathory Killcraft wrote:
stratoplayer wrote:From my point of view, either Israel wipes out the terrorist organizations and completely takes away the muslim fighting spirit or this will become a long and bloody war of attrition, there is no other way from my perspective.
From my point of view the only way is to nuke the whole Middle East from Israel to Pakistan and sink it at least 1000m below sea level. In that way a new sea will be created where we can go surfing. Only problem is, there'll be huge amount of radioctivity present so we won't be able to enjoy surf as much but we'll think something about it.

This is the ONLY solution. No Israel, No Arab countries - NO PROBLEM.
I think it's better to nuke Europe, then there will be no whining about human rights and "disproportional response" and USA+Israel will finish off everyone who poses a threat and there will be peace. The only country I'd spare is Britain, they have funny accents ...
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Re: WWIII -?

Post by MetalManiac » Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:32 pm

Whining about human rights? So you say the world would be a better place without them? Think again..
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Re: WWIII -?

Post by Bathory Killcraft » Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:42 pm

Shurik wrote:....and USA+Israel will finish off everyone who poses a threat and there will be peace.
A threat to YOUR interests. Which we don't and shouldn't give a shit about.

And as Schmier from Destruction says: "What is the biggest lie of mankind? That the Americans(and Israelis if I may add) are the good ones".
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Re: WWIII -?

Post by Bathory Killcraft » Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:46 pm

MetalManiac wrote:So you say the world would be a better place without them?
Yes, absolutely. Without the USA too but that's the next phase of my nuking plan.
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Re: WWIII -?

Post by miditek » Tue Aug 08, 2006 3:00 pm

Shurik wrote:This is why it's so important not to give Hizballa or Lebanon anything that can be concidered as victory - not a single cm of land, not prisoners, nothing. It's like cancer - if you don't eliminate every single cell, it will grow again. It's also Lebanon's interest to kick terrorists out of their land but Seniora prefers to cry like a little girl rather than stand tall and proud and tell Hizballa and their masters to get the fuck out of Lebanon.
An observation that I'd like to add is that is seems that the UN, the EU, and the nutty American media want to consider Hezbollah as a 'moral equivalent' to Israel.

Expelling Hezbollah is probably not the best idea. The PLO was booted from Lebanon, and lived to fight another day. Hezbollah is a criminal organization, and as such, should be outlawed and dismantled, or preferably, destroyed.
Shurik wrote:If he's afraid (understandable, concidering what happened to Rafik Hariri and probably will happen to everyone in Lebanon who said even one word against Hizballa), he must ask USA and Europe to support and help him.
Which underscores the importance of a joint effort to eradicate Hezbollah, as well as putting Iran and Syria on notice that this type of behavior will not be tolerated. I think that too many bureaucrats fail to see this.
Shurik wrote:BTW, here's a good article about Europe's part in current conflict:
http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=10182
I read this article, and am in complete agreement with it. This is sort of like the old automobile mechanic story; "you can pay me now, or you can pay me later".
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Re: WWIII -?

Post by miditek » Tue Aug 08, 2006 3:07 pm

Bathory Killcraft wrote:
Shurik wrote:....and USA+Israel will finish off everyone who poses a threat and there will be peace.
A threat to YOUR interests. Which we don't and shouldn't give a shit about.

And as Schmier from Destruction says: "What is the biggest lie of mankind? That the Americans(and Israelis if I may add) are the good ones".
If you wish to make excuses for facists like Nasarallah, Ahmandinejad and Assad, then that is certainly your privilege. Plenty of people made excuses for Hitler, and when Europe was presented with the bill, I do believe that they found the price to be quite high.

WWII served notice that any future global conflict will be far more destructive- by an order of magnitude.
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Re: WWIII -?

Post by Bathory Killcraft » Tue Aug 08, 2006 3:28 pm

miditek wrote:WWII served notice that any future global conflict will be far more destructive- by an order of magnitude.
As long as it involves the complete erasure of the Middle East and USA off the map I am totally ok and cool with it.
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Re: WWIII -?

Post by Heiserich » Tue Aug 08, 2006 4:08 pm

Great plan, Bathory Killcraft... Why don't we simply wipe out the complete world, that's the best garantee that peace will prevail forever. I guess it is step 3 in your nuking plan :?
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Re: WWIII -?

Post by Shurik » Tue Aug 08, 2006 4:52 pm

MetalManiac wrote:Whining about human rights? So you say the world would be a better place without them? Think again..
I was joking, I thought that my last line about funny accents showed that :)
Why don't we simply wipe out the complete world, that's the best garantee that peace will prevail forever.
Sure - no people, no wars. The ultimate peace ...
Expelling Hezbollah is probably not the best idea. The PLO was booted from Lebanon, and lived to fight another day. Hezbollah is a criminal organization, and as such, should be outlawed and dismantled, or preferably, destroyed.
Destroying it won't help much either because their patrons are still intact. Dealing with Syria and Iran will be much more effective because those 2 countries supply Hizballa with weapons and provide political, ideological and logistical help ...
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Re: WWIII -?

Post by NeonVomit » Tue Aug 08, 2006 6:31 pm

Shurik wrote:
Destroying it won't help much either because their patrons are still intact. Dealing with Syria and Iran will be much more effective because those 2 countries supply Hizballa with weapons and provide political, ideological and logistical help ...
The best way to deal with Iran is... that's a tough one. A direct war on Iran would be a complete disaster, look at Iraq, then imagine something ten times worse. A total nightmare, one which I think no one in their right mind would be willing to get involved in.

Perhaps 'decapitation' would be the best, knock out the leadership and the circle of Ayatollahs which really rule the country, and encourage the population to take over.
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Re: WWIII -?

Post by miditek » Tue Aug 08, 2006 7:53 pm

NeonVomit wrote:The best way to deal with Iran is... that's a tough one. A direct war on Iran would be a complete disaster, look at Iraq, then imagine something ten times worse. A total nightmare, one which I think no one in their right mind would be willing to get involved in.

Perhaps 'decapitation' would be the best, knock out the leadership and the circle of Ayatollahs which really rule the country, and encourage the population to take over.
Decapitation of the mullahs inner circle is certainly one option, but how would this not lead to a general war? They won't give up their hold on power without a fight, and the Revolutionary Guards and secret police are certainly in place to enforce the leaders' will.

Operation Valkyrie (where Graf von Stauffenberg placed a bomb at Wolf's Lair) failed to bring down the Third Reich. It is very, very difficult to stage a successful coup in a totalitarian state. I do not know of very many successful attempts.

However, failing to do this will eventually lead the West to face blackmail and threats from a nuclear armed Iran, which in turn will lead to war with far greater losses than going in now.

It is admittedly, a catch-22 situation.
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Re: WWIII -?

Post by NeonVomit » Tue Aug 08, 2006 7:59 pm

miditek wrote:
It is admittedly, a catch-22 situation.
Precisely. If it wasn't for the Iraq thing, perhaps a proper war would've been feasible... but maybe not even then.
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Re: WWIII -?

Post by Shurik » Tue Aug 08, 2006 9:59 pm

Actually the general Iranian population, especially the youth, is not as dumb and maniacal as their leaders, people get tired of ayatollas rule. The question is whether they are brave enough to face the ayatollahs ... May be help in this direction could bring Iranian people to overthrow the maniacs that rule Iran now ... After ayatollahs are gone, Syria will shift sides at the speed of light, because it's helpless without their patrons ...

So, the problem is Iran.
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Re: WWIII -?

Post by miditek » Tue Aug 08, 2006 10:06 pm

NeonVomit wrote:
miditek wrote:
It is admittedly, a catch-22 situation.
Precisely. If it wasn't for the Iraq thing, perhaps a proper war would've been feasible... but maybe not even then.
There is an interesting article at the following website waronjihad dot com that is entitled How Hamas and Hezbollah will Demolish the Middle East.

There is a list of increasingly violent events that eventually escalate into a frightening nuclear war in the Middle East. Three of the events on the list have already happened.

Note: I personally feel that while some of these events will happen, I do believe that the actual outcome will probably be worse. More natural disasters, for instance are bound to happen.

Check your hotmail.com account for the specific URL's that I'm sending on these stories.
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Re: WWIII -?

Post by Shurik » Tue Aug 08, 2006 11:25 pm

Another interesting site on how the press covers the current situation:

Warning - it contains gory images:
http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/
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