"Hypocrites!"

[browneyedgirl]

Does an innocent six year old child deserve to die of a horrible illness, because the world is a rotten place? While corrupt criminals can live a long life of luxury? Is that meant to be justice? "Oh they'll be judged in the afterlife and spend eternity in hell" for some reason, doesn't sound very comforting to me. I care about this life.

I thought the whole point of Jesus dying for our sins was meant to cover that...

And you don't see people killing in the name of a famous musician, or movie star. Or any famous musicians saying they will grant you eternal life, and that they created the universe. Bit of a difference there. Yes, some people do get obsessed and idolise famous people, but they mostly grow out of it after puberty, except for some isolated cases in which they have mental difficulties.

Blind, all-accepting faith in ANYTHING is wrong. I have a friend of mine who's in a relationship with this girl, whom he is completely obsessed with. He sees her as the most perfect person to walk the earth, the most ideal creation in the universe. Luckily for him she's also a good person at heart, so she doesn't manipulate him, but it's creepy, he's lost his character being with her.

I really prefer religious people who are well-informed, question and are eager to find out more than what they just hear from their preacher/imam/prayer leader/whatever. To seek their own answers, to find their own conclusions. I've met a few like that, and I wish there were more of them. The world would be a much more peaceful place.

The answer is so simple most of us overlook, or do not understand--or choose not to. The answer is there are lots of things we were NOT MEANT to understand this side of this life. I'd like to know why 2 of my babies died, then I had a beautiful perfect baby boy that was hardly ever ill&had skills way ahead of his age range. Vic was(and is) everything a mother could want&desire in a child! But, why the first two died? I almost drove myself insane trying to figure out why God would do this to me, but then I realized there are things only God knows&understands. Now, 25 years later, I do understand. It does not hurt any less, but I understand why this happened to me. It was no punishment for my sin, or anything my babies did. Apart from that, death is just a part of life, something we have to accept. When someone we love is ripped out of our life like that it seems to be the cruelest thing God could ever do, but we know not the future or what it holds.

If everything worked out the way we wanted, if everything went smoothly in this world, if there were no struggles for what we need, if there were no death, pain, sorrow etc. It would not be a life we would be living, but a fairy tale, a delusion.
We make our own way in this world, and there are no coincidences.
Oh, there are accidents&man is not an island--sometimes others create problems&pain for us. But, once again, that is that free will thing.
Man did have a place that was like people describe as a Utopia: no death, no sickness, everyone living forever, nobody had to work, etc. that was called Eden&mankind screwed that option up, so that is how death, pain&sorrow entered the picture.
If anyone still wants to question God's mysterious ways&demand answers, I suggest you wait 'til Judgment Day&take that issue up with Adam and Eve who got us into all this mess. But, that was mankind's Destiny&meant to happen.

[miditek]

I gave the Inquisition as an example of the horrible things that are carried out in the name of religion. Any religion.

Medieval period examples, such as the Inquisition and the Crusades seem to be the most frequently cited examples of opposition to "organized religion", which in my opinion is a thinly veiled critique of Christianity itself, and therefore is at least a bit hypocritical.

Why not cite more modern examples of religious extremism, such as the Balkan Wars, Rwanda, 9/11, the Khobar Tower bombings in Saudi Arabia, or other recent events? The examples you cited are hundreds of years old, and again, as a Protestant, I can say that we take no orders from Rome, not now, and not ever.

How many Baptists, Methodists, or Lutherans do we have these days running around with suicide belts on?
Even the Catholics don't do that, and I couldn't even imagine them doing so in this day and age. How many Jews are blowing themselves up? How many Hindus? How many Buddhists? How many Sikhs? And you guys are worried about kids watching the "Jesus Camp" videos- so does this mean that the kids in the mosques (including the one in Germany that was recently raided by the polizei) watching Jihad 101 get a pass?

Really, are there any other religions today (other than radical Islam) that have members that are going around and blowing up pizza parlors and parked cars? Please cite some verifiable examples and then I'll be convinced.

Again, I am not anti-Christian, I am anti-organised religion It has been used as a tool by politicians for centuries to get people to kill each other.

But we're not seeing examples of you criticizing let's say, Judaism, or God forbid, Islam. Perhaps what all of this means is that Christianity is a collection of myths that the world can do without, preferably via EU or UN legislation, while Islam itself adds to the "diversity" that European and American leftists endlessly parrot and extol the virtues thereof.

However, I think religion has a place in life, and society. Because science will never hold the answers for everything (although I think it does for most things), and I think something supernatural and beyond human comprehension exists. That's all.

That presents some interesting questions that I'd like to present:

a) Can America survive without its Judeo-Christian
heritage and traditions?

b) Can the West survive without America? Pretend that
America has been reduced to the status of a third
world entity, and no longer plays a significant
role in world affairs. France and Germany might
applaud and even welcome such a notion, but what
plans would they have to offer in lieu of US
leadership?

c) How many books at your local bookstore carry warnings about the dangers of the religious right in America vs. how many books carry similar warnings about the dangers of radical Islam?

[Carcass]

You almost entirely ignored the word any in what you quoted. I can't speak for NeonVomit, but I tend to label all religious behaviour as one. Your polarized view is very alien to me. Times change, religions change. As a history student, I do not think that considering historical facts is unfounded.

During the Ottoman Empire Islam was actually a fairly tolerant religion. And even today, majority of muslims do not hate The West, nor do they form a single united front (sometimes I interpret your words as if you actually believed it is so). Why do you think they are emigrating westwards? To blow themselves up?

Really, are there any other religions today (other than radical Islam) that have members that are going around and blowing up pizza parlors and parked cars? Please cite some verifiable examples and then I'll be convinced.

The Tamil Tigers are Christian, Hindu and Muslim. The Muslim faction of the Tamil people is not very supportive of cause of Tamil Tigers, in fact they have been cleansed from some areas, if I'm not mistaken. By the way, they came up with the idea of putting explosive inside vests in the first place.

Their female suicide bomber killed India's former prime minister:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/date ... 504739.stm

The second example are the Japanese Kamikazes few years back. Luftwaffe pilots did some pretty suicidal stuff aswell. I can think of no other examples.

But does it really make a difference if they blow themselves up? To me it's the same as planting a bomb in a car and detonating it with a remote. The idea of sacrificing oneself like that might be very strange to us, but it doesn't make the act of terrorism worse in any way, in my opinion. In fact, shouldn't you be glad that they are punished for their crime right away? If we eliminate the suicide thingy from the equation, we can add many more religions, minorities and nations to the list. In this sense I don't see suicide bombers that different from IRA, ETA (who killed two Ecuadorians the other day and thus broke the negotiations, fucking idiots), Terra Lliure, Brigate Rosse, Baader-Meinhof League etc.

[NeonVomit]

I gave the Inquisition as an example of the horrible things that are carried out in the name of religion. Any religion.

Medieval period examples, such as the Inquisition and the Crusades seem to be the most frequently cited examples of opposition to "organized religion", which in my opinion is a thinly veiled critique of Christianity itself, and therefore is at least a bit hypocritical.

Why not cite more modern examples of religious extremism, such as the Balkan Wars, Rwanda, 9/11, the Khobar Tower bombings in Saudi Arabia, or other recent events? The examples you cited are hundreds of years old, and again, as a Protestant, I can say that we take no orders from Rome, not now, and not ever.

How many Baptists, Methodists, or Lutherans do we have these days running around with suicide belts on?
Even the Catholics don't do that, and I couldn't even imagine them doing so in this day and age. How many Jews are blowing themselves up? How many Hindus? How many Buddhists? How many Sikhs? And you guys are worried about kids watching the "Jesus Camp" videos- so does this mean that the kids in the mosques (including the one in Germany that was recently raided by the polizei) watching Jihad 101 get a pass?

Really, are there any other religions today (other than radical Islam) that have members that are going around and blowing up pizza parlors and parked cars? Please cite some verifiable examples and then I'll be convinced.

Islamophobia again. Seikh radicalists have caused a lot of trouble in India, but we don't hear about it because nobody cares about them. Suicide attacks, indiscriminate killings, the lot. Hindus as well have perpetrated attacks on muslims in India too. And in the Malaccan Islands, even *gasp* Christians have killed Muslims in the secterian violence that's ongoing there (mostly revenge killings... real good example of 'turning the other cheek' huh?). And let us not forget the saddest of all, Northern Ireland... Christians in a wealthy developed country killing each other, over differences between Catholicism and Protestantism. The Balkan wars were again, mainly religiously motivated. You mentioned those anyway. ETA have recently broken their own self-declared ceasefire and killed two Ecuadorians with a bomb attack.

Not all terrorists are Muslims. Face it.

We all know you think Islam is the most evil thing in the world today and you can't wait for that global genocide of all muslims to take place, and that Christianity and America (being one and the same in your view) are completely infallible. Unfortunately, things are never as black-and-white as that.

Again, I am not anti-Christian, I am anti-organised religion It has been used as a tool by politicians for centuries to get people to kill each other.

But we're not seeing examples of you criticizing let's say, Judaism, or God forbid, Islam. Perhaps what all of this means is that Christianity is a collection of myths that the world can do without, preferably via EU or UN legislation, while Islam itself adds to the "diversity" that European and American leftists endlessly parrot and extol the virtues thereof.

We're talking about Christianity in this thread. I think if you read through a couple of my earlier posts, I mentioned something about critisizing Islam being akin to shooting fish in a barrel. I lived in Saudi Arabia for 9 years, I know it far too well. I really wouldn't even know where to begin. Although there's a few things you'd probably really like about it...

However, I think religion has a place in life, and society. Because science will never hold the answers for everything (although I think it does for most things), and I think something supernatural and beyond human comprehension exists. That's all.

That presents some interesting questions that I'd like to present:

a) Can America survive without its Judeo-Christian
heritage and traditions?

b) Can the West survive without America? Pretend that
America has been reduced to the status of a third
world entity, and no longer plays a significant
role in world affairs. France and Germany might
applaud and even welcome such a notion, but what
plans would they have to offer in lieu of US
leadership?

c) How many books at your local bookstore carry warnings about the dangers of the religious right in America vs. how many books carry similar warnings about the dangers of radical Islam?

I'm not in a position to answer the first question, I do not live in America. I'd like to think America was more than just about God and Jesus, like freedom, enterprise and equality, and with such powerful ideals America could still be great. Those things are beyond religion for me. But that's just my view as a non-American.

The world would be different if the US lost its power/influcence, similar to how the world would be if Japan lost its economic might or the EU fell. Or how it was when the Soviet Union collapsed. Or if China suddenly was consumed by massive infighting and internal strife. I'm not saying better or worse, but different. Of course, you seem to think that America has been given a mission by God to defend all freedom and justice against the evil Islam and it's horrible European allies (who they've attacked as well but let's conveniently forget about that), so it would be the end of the world, in your view. I personally think it would be a massive reorganisation of the world order, but hardly the end of it.

I think everyone is pretty much aware of the danger posed by radical Islam, if you chose to remember the July 7th bombings of the London transport network or the Madrid train bombings (along with the problems France has had in the past with Islamic extremists... but of course Europe prefers to protect and help these people... right?) It's so obvious it doesn't need to be said. That's like saying the sky is blue.

But are you trying to justify religious extremisim in Christianity? "If they do it, why not us?" What scared me about Jesus Camp is that the kids were sent there by their parents out of choice. Madrassas in Pakistan (a hotbed for Islamic radicalist thinking and indoctrination) are often the only places poor parents in those areas can give their children an education (classes in science, mathematics, geography and history are given in between the brainwashing sessions). They're an example of the theory that religious fundamentalism mostly flourishes in impoverished areas, or amongst those who are marginalised by the societies they live in.

The scary thing about Jesus Camp is that Christianity is by far and away the dominant faith in America, and America is a wealthy country with a very high standard of living. These are not normal conditions for extremism to ferment. Do you believe it's right? Many devout, educated Christians I've spoken to were disgusted by what they saw in that film.

[browneyedgirl]

I don't think anyone has to worry about either USA or christianity becoming the dominant force in the world with all the obvious hatred&hostility toward both of them. Deny it&sugarcoat it all you want to--Actions always speak louder than words!
For example I know of 3 seperate forums that are overrun with Pro-New Age topics(nothing against New Age), and I would bet my life if someone, or a group of someones, were to post a bunch of Pro-Christianity topics-even tolerate ones--these people&their topics would be tarred, feathered, and ran out on a rail. OR, kept around as scapegoats for others to bash to high heaven.

Actually, in the "last days" America&all her allies are supposed/prophesized to fall, so I guess alot of folks in the world will celebrate that, in their hearts. But, their joyousness will not last because in America's downfall there will be eventual destruction of the world. It is evident it is fruitless to discuss it. And, for the MILLIONTH time, nobody is happy about such calamity events because, NEWSFLASH, nobody is going to win!
But, people who believe in such stuff are branded as nutcases/senile/village idiots. Thats OK, because Jesus even spoke of that-----there have been many cases througout history where people ignored the people scapegoated as "village idiot"at their own peril, and demise.
However, Have some famous person utter sheer garbage out of their mouth&people believe it! Actions speak, once again! Like I said before, have a member of some band become a Christian&there will be lots of fan conversions. And, you are right---I don't have much faith in humanity anymore! At least after death nobody has to worry about impressing anyone anymore--and failing, trying to be cool so people will like ya, there won't be any opportunists around to ruin everything, and nobody will judge&analyze anyone else anymore, or reject anybody anymore if they don't fucking measure up to to the idea of "coolness". Christianity is hope for the hopeless&just because you might have it made in life does not mean others do--so DON'T try to take that hope away from the outcasts of the world, the hurt, and the dying. And, BTW, just because I say this stuff does NOT mean I am full of hate, spreading negative energy or a hateful person. I'm sick of these fluffy bunnies who think people supposed to be hahaha laughing all the time to qualify as a loving, warm person. Real life is not a fairy tale--its hard work, problems, pain&hurt. And everyone is entitled to hurt&feel anger as much as happiness and elation!

I imagine when Noah was sailing away in the Ark safe&dry, all the big-shots and disbelievers who had made fun of him&had spat upon him were clawing at the door trying to get inside to be around the outcast they hated and did not want to know--did not think he was good enough to know. What a trip!

People will believe what they want to believe, pure&simple. A person can state facts&proof, but people as a whole are still subjective in how they look at things.
It is nothing wrong in questioning&wondering, but odds are if you are searching for a "pat" answer you will be disappointed. And, the same questions get asked over&over&over again!

[NeonVomit]

I imagine when Noah was sailing away in the Ark safe&dry, all the big-shots and disbelievers who had made fun of him&had spat upon him were clawing at the door trying to get inside to be around the outcast they hated and did not want to know--did not think he was good enough to know. What a trip!

Depends how you take that story. If it's metaphorical (which I believe it is), then it's a lot more complicated than that.

If you take it literally... well, um. Ok.

[Carcass]

If you take it literally... well, um. Ok.

Imagine the size of the ark, to build something like that you have to cut down each and every tree in the Middle East. Seriously, if you add species we've found fossils of to the ones currently alive, the ark must have been ridiculously big. Like a floating town.

[browneyedgirl]

I imagine when Noah was sailing away in the Ark safe&dry, all the big-shots and disbelievers who had made fun of him&had spat upon him were clawing at the door trying to get inside to be around the outcast they hated and did not want to know--did not think he was good enough to know. What a trip!

Depends how you take that story. If it's metaphorical (which I believe it is), then it's a lot more complicated than that.

If you take it literally... well, um. Ok.

Archeologists did find fossil remains of a big ship/vessel on Mt.Ararat where supposedly the Ark got landlocked. if it did happen I imagine it comes under the heading, "with God all things are possible."
Thats one of those things that we will all understand someday, I guess.

@Carcass, can you imagine the smell? :yuk: 40 days&40 nights with animals like elephants, horses, cows, etc. Phew! Wasn't a healthy situation. No wonder Noah got drunk after it was over!

And, the 3 sons&their wives were told to go, multiply&replenish the Earth. Man, there must've been a set of triplets born every year for 40 years to each couple to accomplish that feat!
There is the theory that 1 son produced the White race, 1 produced the Black race, and one produced the Yellow race.
I think the book of Genesis makes everyone, even Christians, ask many questions.

[NeonVomit]

I imagine when Noah was sailing away in the Ark safe&dry, all the big-shots and disbelievers who had made fun of him&had spat upon him were clawing at the door trying to get inside to be around the outcast they hated and did not want to know--did not think he was good enough to know. What a trip!

Depends how you take that story. If it's metaphorical (which I believe it is), then it's a lot more complicated than that.

If you take it literally... well, um. Ok.

Archeologists did find fossil remains of a big ship/vessel on Mt.Ararat where supposedly the Ark got landlocked. if it did happen I imagine it comes under the heading, "with God all things are possible."
Thats one of those things that we will all understand someday, I guess.

@Carcass, can you imagine the smell? :yuk: 40 days&40 nights with animals like elephants, horses, cows, etc. Phew! Wasn't a healthy situation. No wonder Noah got drunk after it was over!

And, the 3 sons&their wives were told to go, multiply&replenish the Earth. Man, there must've been a set of triplets born every year for 40 years to each couple to accomplish that feat!
There is the theory that 1 son produced the White race, 1 produced the Black race, and one produced the Yellow race.
I think the book of Genesis makes everyone, even Christians, ask many questions.

I can prefer someone saying 'God made it possible, the end' rather than try to show something akin to scientific evidence for something as physically impossible as every species of land animal in the world being able to fit in a boat which (according to the measurements in the bible) wasn't actually that big. Or 6 people (half of them from the same family!) repopulating the entire world.

I think the book of Genesis is not meant to be taken literally, at all. The stories in there are meant to be taken as studies and hypothetical examples of God's way of working. But that's just my opinion as a filthy heathern who will burn in hell