Jerry Falwell kicks it

[NeonVomit]

Good riddance. It's people like him who've made me hate religion.

Shortly after the 11 September 2001 attacks, he said that gays, atheists, civil-rights activists and legal abortions in the US had angered God and "helped this happen".

And he wasn't lynched for saying that?

[miditek]

Good riddance. It's people like him who've made me hate religion.

"If you ever find a perfect church, don't join it. You'd ruin it"- C.S. Lewis

[browneyedgirl]

I hate to hear about anyone dying, even if I disagree with their political or religious views&yes, I hated Falwell's extremism. Its men with views like his which help create frigid women&people with hang-ups. I would have hated to have been his daughter.
But, thats between him&God to thrash out now. And, we all will have to face the same judgement before God as Jerry.
I don't hate the guy, because if I did I'd be guilty of the same sin he was: Intolerance.
Whether we like it or not, everyone, even fanatics have a right to their beliefs. Cringe, grin&bear it. Its supposedly a free world.
So, RIP, Jerry, I hope you finally find peace because from the way it seems, he never had it in life.
To say the things he did, he wasn't too happy I don't think.

[Stealth]

Jerry who?

[Carcass]

Civil-rights activists?!?! I can understand the reasoning behind saying that the rest are ungodly people, but civil-rights activists... far fucking out.

When I hear about ill people like him, I'm glad I live in an übersecular Nordic country.

I think Muhammad was a terrorist. I read enough by both Muslims and non-Muslims, [to decide] that he was a violent man, a man of war.

And God of the Old Testament then?

[browneyedgirl]

Well, Jerry would've hated me because I'm a feminist&contrary to what some people think, all feminists are not lesbians or man-haters. I have came to the realization LONG AGO that lots of Christians are no different in their attitudes toward women than the "worldly people" that they claim to hate. (Christian guys are no less an octopus than a non-Christian )But, thats another topic. I imagine whenever a Playboy-bunny type female walked into Jerry's church he'd break his chubby neck to get to know her--as a "person/child of God" of course --(Proverbs 31:30 is a bunch of pure BS in reality--just ask any female who is judged unattractive by males in society, Christian or not)

However, Falwell dying will not change the world, or anything, or anyone in it. Thats why its stupid to be glad he is dead.

And if you think God is such a Badass, LOL, you haven't seen anything yet!
But, Hell, us outcasts need that hope that God will set things even&right because that is what keeps many from giving up hope or going totally insane. Take God out of the framework completely&I guarantee there would be an epidemic of VTechs all over the world.

[miditek]

When I hear about ill people like him, I'm glad I live in an übersecular Nordic country.

I'm not so sure if it is what I'd call ubersecular- let me know what you think about the numbers in this US State Department report on religious freedom in Finland. It was published last year. I think that it would be interesting to see a Finn's take on this.

state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2006/71379.htm

I think Muhammad was a terrorist. I read enough by both Muslims and non-Muslims, [to decide] that he was a violent man, a man of war.

And God of the Old Testament then?

God certainly had His angry moments in the Old Testament, and really, how could one blame Him? From a theological standpoint, God became incensed with the Israelis as described in Exodus 32, which highlighted "The Golden Calf". If there is one thing that really gets under His skin, it is the sin of idolatry- or worshiping other gods.

He'd sent various plagues upon Egypt to secure the release of His people. He gave them a leader in Moses, as well as his brother and lieutenant Aaron. He allowed Moses the power to part the Red Sea, and then drowned the Egyptians that were pursuing.

He fed them manna while in the wilderness, and when the complained about that, he gave them quail. He gave them a whirlwind to guide them in the desert during the day, and a pillar of fire to guide them at night.

He gave them His law through the Ten Commandments, and after still all of this, they still complained, and when Moses came off of Mount Sinai, they were dancing around the golden calf- which infuriated Moses to the extent that he smashed the tablets that had been inscribed by the very hand of God itself. God was so angry that He wished to destroy the Israelis, but Moses plead and argued their case before Him.

Exodus 32:11-14 (NIV) Moses pleads his case to God

11 But Moses sought the favor of the LORD his God. "O LORD," he said, "why should your anger burn against your people, whom you brought out of Egypt with great power and a mighty hand?

12 Why should the Egyptians say, 'It was with evil intent that he brought them out, to kill them in the mountains and to wipe them off the face of the earth'? Turn from your fierce anger; relent and do not bring disaster on your people.

13 Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Israel, to whom you swore by your own self: 'I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and I will give your descendants all this land I promised them, and it will be their inheritance forever.' " 14 Then the LORD relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.

There are many examples of God's love, interspersed with His discipline, throughout the Bible. What would you do if God said (similar to the movie 'Bruce Almighty' starring Jim Carrey);

"OK. I've had about enough complaints about how I am running things. If you think you can do better, then here is your golden opportunity. The two rules are that you cannot reveal yourself as Deity, and you cannot interfere with freewill. I'll check back with you periodically to see how things are going."

Then, here's what would happen:

a) You would get to hear all of the complaints
b) You would see how lost mankind truly is
c) You'd see how little people appreciate you
d) You'd constantly be reminded how trendy atheism is
e) You would also realize that the world needed you a
lot more than you needed it.
f) You'd wonder why the real God even cares anymore.

Falwell said some stupid things in his career (who hasn't?), but just how many people did he decapitate?

I find it incredibly naive for people to cry and complain about Christian ministers (endlessly!) and yet do not see the real threat even when it is obvious, and quite real. Also, it's also important to remember that is is the secular regimes from Europe (and Asia) that have killed tens of millions of people in the 20th century.

Marx, Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, and Mussolini became the gods of Europe, and with results that were entirely predictable, and not to mention, avoidable. And then people complain about Jerry Falwell, and then call us the American Taliban?

Even now, Europe is probably not as secular as your university professors would have you believe. As I'd said before, the churches may be either empty or on the decline for sure, but the mosques are anything but. Ever wonder what is being said inside there during the sermons? Even the French spy on mosques in their own country, although I am sure it is not the politically correct thing to do.


There are and were plenty of religious related conflicts in Europe in the late 20th and early 21st centuries.

a) Protestant vs. Catholic strife in N. Ireland
b) Basque separatist violence in Spain
c) Balkan Wars
d) Chechnya

[NeonVomit]

Even now, Europe is probably not as secular as your university professors would have you believe. As I'd said before, the churches may be either empty or on the decline for sure, but the mosques are anything but. Ever wonder what is being said inside there during the sermons? Even the French spy on mosques in their own country, although I am sure it is not the politically correct thing to do.

We don't need university professors to tell us how secular Europe is, we see it in the streets every day (except Greece and Cyprus, where the church's influence is still far too strong for my liking, meddling with politics and the real estate market is NOT their territory IMO)

Mosques are usually filled with immigrants over here. There is a problem with immigration in the EU, and yes, people are getting a bit fed up with it (Sarkozy's tough stance on it was one of the things that helped him win the election) And besides, really, since when have the French cared about political correctness? Rainbow Warrior anyone? Pacific nuclear tests?

I really don't understand the dislike many Americans have for the French, and vice versa. You guys share an awful lot in common! Both will do what they believe is right for their interests and won't really care what anyone else thinks/says, something that takes guts in today's world. And besides, both France and the USA have helped each other out on a number of occasions. Get along already!

Believe me, I'd be just as happy if Osama or Mullah Omar had been blasted to pieces. And please, please don't tell me you agree with anything Fred Phelps has to say. Anyone who holds the military with as high regard as you do cannot have a good thing to say about him, which is the main reason I despise him as much as I do regardless of his religious views. I can't see how anyone else who's served in uniform couldn't.

I don't discriminate. I hate all religion equally

Criticising Islam is like shooting fish in a barrel, I don't even need to say anything... extremist Christians are more fun to take down.

Bottom line, Jerry Falwell preached hate (supported Apartheid in South Africa and was verhemently opposed Brown v. Board of Education, for example) and said that 9/11 was America's own fault, essentially for protecting freedom of speech, expression and lifestyle. Oh he made a half-assed 'apology' for saying that, yeah, that was convincing.

The problem was, Falwell did not live in some rural backward country in Eastern Europe or Africa or Asia, where such attitudes and beliefs can be 'expected'. Falwell lived in the United States of America.

America is the Land of the Free. You can say what you want, do what you want, live how you want, and I think people who have never had their freedom under threat simply do not grasp what a vast, crystalline, pure, beautiful concept that is. The American Ideal is incredible, what essentially all countries on earth should aim for. Jerry Falwell and all his ilk stood against that freedom. He was using that freedom to say what he wanted, but didn't like people with different views also using that same freedom.

'Love it or Leave it' is a common cry heard in America.

Jerry Falwell should've shipped off long ago, in my opinion.

And here we have a pretty good round-up of his life and actions, rather than the rather annoying statements of US politicians about him, eager not to offend the religious right in order to secure more votes in the next elections.

[stratoplayer]

Not the most unbiased article there...

But I have to agree with a lot (had he kept his demeaning word tone a bit down then it would have seemed to have been taken out of a newspaper) of what he said, I have no love for the idiotic morons that deem themselves perfect and condemn everything different.

[Carcass]

I'm not so sure if it is what I'd call ubersecular- let me know what you think about the numbers in this US State Department report on religious freedom in Finland. It was published last year. I think that it would be interesting to see a Finn's take on this.

At the end of 2005, 83.1 percent of the population belonged to the Evangelical Lutheran Church, and 1 percent belonged to the Orthodox Church. The percentage for the Evangelical Lutheran Church was 83.6 percent a year earlier. A total of 33,043 people left the Evangelical Lutheran Church, some 6,000 more than in 2004. The number of those who joined the Church increased by 9,559.

Well, to me they are pretty grim. These numbers do not include the babtized babies, I gather dead people are not included either. It's very easy to leave the church nowadays, just fill in a form in internet.

A 2003 Gallup poll showed that Finns held a more positive view toward Christian churches and religious groups than in a similar poll taken in 1999. Over one-half of those interviewed believed that one was accountable in an afterlife for one's deeds.

I think this "over one-half" number is more telling about the religiousity of the Finnish people than the 83.1% given above. A lot of people belong to the church cause they've been in it from the birth, it's something they hardly think of. I have very few religious friends, if any, and yet I know only two who have quit the church. They are twins and it is quite telling that their parents are agnostics. Hell, even I'm in the church. Why? Well, I haven't really thought about it.

A lot of people belong to the church only for getting married, buried and that sort of stuff. For traditions. My cousin got married in a church and neither he or his wife are religious in any way.

...confirmation classes were the flagship of the Church's youth work, and in 2004 as many as 57,000 youngsters, i.e. some 90 percent of the age group (approximately fifteen years), attended.

A lot of kids attend the confirmation classes, I did too. Usually the classes are given in the summer in a remote place for the course of a week. In my case it was an island with nice cabins. When you atted you are 14 or 15. That's an age when you are confused and many, to a certain extent, are interested to hear what the priest has to say, but equally attracting is the fact that you are going to spend a week with your mates, smoke cigarettes and talk trash.

Conserning the rest of your post, NeonVomit put it better than I could've. It's the same thing as with GITMO or Jesus Camp. There are few buffoons like Jerry in Europe (although there is one very, very influential, namely the Pope), seeing people like him having a lot of influence in US, that after all is one of us, is... shall I say dissapointing.

But we do have one thing that you do not, turn our flag 90 degrees clockwise and you have... A CROSS!!! And we have a state church aswell, in fact we have two. Try to top that.

Falwell did not live in some rural backward country in Eastern Europe

...where the parliament seeks to proclaim Jesus Christ as their king.

[NeonVomit]

Not the most unbiased article there...

But I have to agree with a lot (had he kept his demeaning word tone a bit down then it would have seemed to have been taken out of a newspaper) of what he said, I have no love for the idiotic morons that deem themselves perfect and condemn everything different.

The website name should give an idea of the attitudes and methods prelevant on that website

Extremely biased, and the writing style is, well, Ruthless....

[browneyedgirl]

America, home of the free? Do as we want? Say what we want? Believe what we want?
What State is that? I want to move there.
Maybe in principal that is true, but in reality&practice that is a bunch of BS!
You put those words in practice&I promise you that you will land in jail, get murdered, or have your teeth knocked down your throat!
There is no such thing as true fredom in this life--NOWHERE!

Humans are held accountable for what they say&do. Society judges. That is what teaches humans to act like humans. NOBODY can do&say what they please.
For example, sometimes I'd like to tell my Boss to go to Hell but, does the freedom of speech give me the right to do that? There are people I work with that are so annoying that I'd love to take them to a dark alley&flail them until they scream for mercy. Does the freedom to "do as I want" allow me to do that? Thank God, NOT! And, there are people in society that if allowed to do as they want would surely destroy themselves&others in their quest to be "free". FREEDOM is a much abused word. NOTHING in life is ever totally free. Everything has its price sooner or later.
Even this hatred for God in word&actions is going to bite us all in the ass sooner or later. Disregard&ignore what I say--its OK, its your right. But it will happen.

I find it very interesting that many people who claim to be so damn tolerant have a field day rambling, ranting, and criticizing God&Christianity. And, yes, Christianity IS different.
Thank you! †

One more thing, if you think Christianity is a weird belief, go LIVE with the Muslims&LIVE their religion. But, I'd advise you not to wink, flirt or even smile at their sisters or daughters!

[NeonVomit]

I find it very interesting that many people who claim to be so damn tolerant have a field day rambling, ranting, and criticizing God&Christianity. And, yes, Christianity IS different.
Thank you! †

One more thing, if you think Christianity is a weird belief, go LIVE with the Muslims&LIVE their religion. But, I'd advise you not to wink, flirt or even smile at their sisters or daughters!

Oh, I'm tolerant of religions. People can believe what they want to as long as they don't try to shove it down my throat or threaten my by saying I'll go to hell if I don't share their beliefs. I only have a field day rambling and criticizing those who do exactly the same, by preaching hate and perverting the bible (I'm sure I read something in there about Love thy neighbour, funny how so many of these radicals manage to forget it).

The thing I'm not tolerant of is the stupidity that comes with religion most of the time My parents are religious, as are most of my family. Am I ashamed of that? No, because they made conscious decisions and accept other people for what they believe or choose not to believe. They're not brainwashed, they're intelligent people (like, they produced me, so they must be ) who have come to a conclusion after years of consideration. In fact many priests I've spoken to have been some of the most insightful people I've ever had the pleasure of conversing with.

I just cannot stand idiots like Fred Phelps, Falwell, Pat Robertson, every Imam who claims the way to Paradise is to kill unbelievers. They are dangerous to the world, especially as long as there are small minded idiots who will follow them.

Criticise Christianity as a whole? Why do that? It's brought a lot to the world, and still does through organisations like Christian Aid (who, shock! horror! I volunteered for 2 years ago in the aftermath of the asian tsunami to help raise relief funds.) In Greece, the church was instrumental in maintaining Greek national identity, literature, history and education while under Ottoman occupation for 400 years.

Islam has its virtuous points as well, things like self discipline and charity. Have a look at the Five Pillars of Islam sometime, they're a pretty good guide to living life I think, in a similar to the Ten Commandments.

I am intolerant of intolerance, however paradoxical that sounds. Every single bad thing I have to say about Christianity or Islam or any other religion is over intolerance.

It is extremist religion I hate, and which has put me off religion in general.

I will never think less of anyone for being religious. I could spit out the typical 'lots of my friends are Christians/Muslims/whatever' line but I don't need to, you know what I speak is the truth. I will think less of someone if they are closed-minded and wilfully ignorant and there are plenty of atheists and agnostics like that. Religion is irrelevant when I think of someone.

And, funny you should mention living in a Muslim country, I did just that for nine years, as a matter of fact, in Saudi Arabia due to my dad's job. As I've said many times (last time being about 2 posts ago), just don't let me get started on radical Islam, I'd never finish. I infinately prefer living in a Christian-based society, purely because it is MORE tolerant and MORE free. I hated every day living in that hellhole (much of it to do with the climate), but easily the worst thing was the stifling, oppressive atmosphere of a theocratic state that looked upon me as evil simply because I didn't share their beliefs.

Don't think I say things without knowing what I'm talking about! If I lack knowledge on a subject I simply wouldn't say anything at all

Even this hatred for God in word&actions is going to bite us all in the ass sooner or later. Disregard&ignore what I say--its OK, its your right. But it will happen.

Assuming God even exists at all. What if he doesn't? I've yet to see conclusive proof that he does. And I've yet to see conclusive proof that he doesn't.

Until I see either, count me out of the system.

[browneyedgirl]

I hate Extremism, too&I think we all know the path that Extremism has led to throughout history: Masada, the Crusades, the Inquistion, the Roman Coliseum sports, Ruby Ridge, WTC, Waco, Jonestown, OKC Bombing, Solar Temple, Boudicca's Revenge, KKK, Nazi's, etc.etc.etc.......

I try to sit on the fence on these matters&try to see both sides, and defend each as needed. Sometimes I think that is the least respectable position to be in. I mean, for example, Falwell&his ilk really annoys me with their backward Victorian attitudes, yet at the same time, Christianity&its ideals cannot be just swept under the rug. And, yes, I admit if I had been born&raised a Jew or Muslim, Buddhist, etc. I'd be defending them, too!

[stratoplayer]

The thing is that one thing is the ideals and the beliefs of group and another ENTIRELY different thing is how they are preached, taught and followed. Christian (or insert another religion here if you wish, I don't care) values are quite noble as values and ideas, but the belief system as a whole is something I don't like, and I really hate those who don't want to or can't see another point of view.

Robertson might think he is doing the best for his country, but maybe he and his cronies can't see that Lesbians, Gay, Abortionist, Minorities, etc etc are just as much a part of their country as they are, so who know what they ARE trying to protect and preserve.

[browneyedgirl]

Oh, I think alot of those tele-evangelists are just in it for the money. Period. When all is said&done, thats a big chunk of it. And IMO, thats a complete shame.

[NeonVomit]

And, yes, I admit if I had been born&raised a Jew or Muslim, Buddhist, etc. I'd be defending them, too!

BEG, for that single statement, you have displayed honesty and clarity of thought that is far beyond my years (and most other peoples' on this forum). As if you needed someone of my age to show 'approval' of this! Many other Christians would not have had the courage to admit that.

[browneyedgirl]

And, yes, I admit if I had been born&raised a Jew or Muslim, Buddhist, etc. I'd be defending them, too!

BEG, for that single statement, you have displayed honesty and clarity of thought that is far beyond my years (and most other peoples' on this forum). As if you needed someone of my age to show 'approval' of this! Many other Christians would not have had the courage to admit that.

The "Goldie Hawn" in me doesn't quite get it, but thanks.
I think.

Its like that old Three Stooges short---the one about Heredity vs. Environment. What influences a person, is what the environment is&what a person grows up in.
Seperate twins at birth--place 1 in a Christian home&another in a Muslim(or atheist, Jew, etc), and there you have it!
Of course, people can change their minds later as to which religious path they seriously follow, or not to follow anything---which, actually is where I am now. I was born into Christianity, and its my beliefs. But, I don't practice it. Haven't been to church since 1989.
Of course, a person does not have to go to church to declare themselves a religion. I think its what a person feels in their heart&how they live their life.(Good God--I sound like that priest/knight on Kingdom of Heaven ) But, that is true, IMO.