Why do People Hate Jews and Christians?

[browneyedgirl]

Right on, smiley-face girl, I have been saying that all along!

[:)]

I just had a brilliant idea, lets change the topic of this thread to "Happy 21st Birthday Smiley Face Girl!" Because it's my birthday tommorow (or today or yesterday depending on when you read this post.)
7/28/1986
Whoot whoot!

[Neorave]

I just had a brilliant idea, lets change the topic of this thread to "Happy 21st Birthday Smiley Face Girl!" Because it's my birthday tommorow (or today or yesterday depending on when you read this post.)
7/28/1986
Whoot whoot!

We shall ask the Muffin Budda! He says "It'll be blueberry, and it shall be made so."...yes!

Btw, I completely agree with your opinion. Some things humans will never know, because many things that we try to figure goes beyond human knowledge. We may not be able to comprehend everything.

[TimoTolkki]

I think..... that Hitler was actually a care bear that turned to the dark side of the force when he found out that Darth Borat was his father and his brother. Then he escaped to the mountains of Ethopia to embark on a deep spiritual awakening. When he returned from Ethopia he traveled, on foot, to Istanbul. Taking with him only 2 tissues, a toothpick, a stick of butter, a saftey pin and a twinkie, and was able to make the journey in only 3 days. Once he arrived in Istanbul he changed his name to Marty, and set up a lemonade stand. Where, over the course of 5 years he made his fortune, he sold his lemonade stand for a quarter to an asian gnome that was passing by. Using the Segway he bought in Istanbul, he traversed over a great distance to a cave in south eastern France, where he rallied an army of middle aged walruses and antelope, and declared war on the indigenous migets, who fled to a pirate cove in Whales and were never seen or heard from again.
The End

I also believe that animals go to heaven when they die.

You're killing me...

You're a real story teller. Should start a new career. Would beat J.K. Rowlings and Harry Potter for sure.

-Bow bow-
Thank you! thank you! I'll be here all week! hahahahahaha
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And in relation to this "real discussion" that is going on in this topic (mostly TT and BEG) I think arguing what's right and wrong, and what particular view is correct on ANY religion is kind of a never ending debate that there are no set, definate answers for. Unless you were there and know first hand, you'll never be 100% certain what is accurate. I think the best way to go is, believe what you want to believe, as long as it doesn't harm your fellow man, and as long as your actions and words improve the quality of life for you and those around you.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But that's just my opinion.

Yes.The purpose of internet forum is to have discussions eh. I have never ever claimed to be right or to possess a superior knowledge. I am all about freedom. Of course if and when i feel that religions in generally are harmful, then I will say my opinion. It´s not about who is "right" or "wrong". Things are never black and white.

[Rantanen]

Yes, indeed. We should teach each other those scales of grey in between the black and white. Of course, human nature is human nature. And to blame all this on humanity is probably a mistake. We are what we are, but life is always changing. Everything changes, and in the end everything must cease. There's a lot of f***ed up sh*t in this world, but one can be still a functioning human being without being a part of the things that are fuc*ed up, with a positive attitude. I know it's not easy.

[:)]

I think..... that Hitler was actually a care bear that turned to the dark side of the force when he found out that Darth Borat was his father and his brother. Then he escaped to the mountains of Ethopia to embark on a deep spiritual awakening. When he returned from Ethopia he traveled, on foot, to Istanbul. Taking with him only 2 tissues, a toothpick, a stick of butter, a saftey pin and a twinkie, and was able to make the journey in only 3 days. Once he arrived in Istanbul he changed his name to Marty, and set up a lemonade stand. Where, over the course of 5 years he made his fortune, he sold his lemonade stand for a quarter to an asian gnome that was passing by. Using the Segway he bought in Istanbul, he traversed over a great distance to a cave in south eastern France, where he rallied an army of middle aged walruses and antelope, and declared war on the indigenous migets, who fled to a pirate cove in Whales and were never seen or heard from again.
The End

I also believe that animals go to heaven when they die.

You're killing me...

You're a real story teller. Should start a new career. Would beat J.K. Rowlings and Harry Potter for sure.

-Bow bow-
Thank you! thank you! I'll be here all week! hahahahahaha
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And in relation to this "real discussion" that is going on in this topic (mostly TT and BEG) I think arguing what's right and wrong, and what particular view is correct on ANY religion is kind of a never ending debate that there are no set, definate answers for. Unless you were there and know first hand, you'll never be 100% certain what is accurate. I think the best way to go is, believe what you want to believe, as long as it doesn't harm your fellow man, and as long as your actions and words improve the quality of life for you and those around you.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But that's just my opinion.

Yes.The purpose of internet forum is to have discussions eh. I have never ever claimed to be right or to possess a superior knowledge. I am all about freedom. Of course if and when i feel that religions in generally are harmful, then I will say my opinion. It´s not about who is "right" or "wrong". Things are never black and white.

A religion SHOULD be people who come together sharing a common, or several common beliefs about God, or some sort of superior being. It's just like people who join potato chip clubs. "I'm going to join the potato chip club because i believe potato chips are awesome and i want to hang out with people who share the same belief." People natuarally want to associate with people who share a similar belief structure with them. It's when people turn to violence and attempting to force beliefs on other people that the problem comes.
I cant believe I'm posting a serious reply in this thread.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Once upon a time there was a camel named Pooku who lived in an ice cave in sweden many years ago. Pooku was a wooly saber toothed camel. It was the ice age. Pooku was a lonely wooly saber toothed camel... so he decided to go out into the big frosty beyond and find a friend. So that wednesday he got on his snowboard and began boarding the icy terrain until he wound up in Rhineland, where he met the love of his life, Nati, a pink and orange striped wombat. They lived happily together for many many years until, one fateful day.....
Pooku and Nati fell through a thin spot in the ice where they were break dancing and were frozen there.
-Several thousand years later-
Marty had traveled the world several times over on foot and on his Segwey. It was winter in Rhineland and he was walking over an icy lake when he saw two figures trapped deep below the ice, he immediately began to use the cigarette lighter in his pocket to melt a hole in the ice, which took him several weeks, as it was a cigarette lighter.But finally he got through to the two trapped figures and was able to thaw them out. Pooku, Nati immediately became the best of friends and opened up a new lemonade stand, which was a huge success. And they all lived happily ever after.

[cliff]

In my opinion, there are pros and cons with religions.

Religion can help people who are in despair, for ex : an old man whose wife just passed away. Religion can help this man to survive after the loss of his dear. Some people can find help in work, drugs, alcohol or suicide.
So, if someone decides to get his help from God instead, I don't see how bad it can be!

On the other hand, when you look around, religion is the main source of conflict between men.
Ex, all those Al-Caida fkg fanatics who think that their achievement in life is to sacrifice themselves for "God" and kill innocent people, just because they have a different believe.

Besides, I think the Bible is just a sci-fi novel.
I don't mean that nothing mentionned on it is pure fiction, I just say that no one can be sure at 100% that the facts mentionned in it did happen for real. Some people are so much into religion that they believe everything which is written on the Bible, and blame you if you dare to say the opposite! No one can be 100 % sure of anything, for ex that Jesus was a man. Maybe Jesus was a woman, maybe an animal, or maybe just a spirit.


I am absolutely ok with any religion, as long as the people respect others (including the ones with different believes).
I just hate when the people who are devoted to God, they try to give lessons to non believers, telling that we cannot be happy, that we will end up in Hell and so on. Everybody is free to believe (in) anything they want, as long as they respect others and don't harm anyone!

I personally don't believe in God, but i do believe that there is something above us, I just don't want to give "it" any name or any form.
For ex, how can someone explains the creation of Life, the perfect environnement on Earth for Life (oxygen, light, water...), that the human body is a perfect machine, that we are able to eat, drink, breath, move. That everything a human body needs is around us. Or how the reproduction system is amazingly perfect (that men and women's "body" fit perfectly together). The cycles of life. The change of seasons...
I mean, even with the most-scientific mind and knowledge, it's not possible that all those things happened either "by coincidence", either with "Evolution". There is definitely something (or someone) who helped.
I just think it's stupid to give it a name, and try to explain it just with one book which was written 2000 years ago!
After all, maybe God's real name is Yngwie Malmsteen?

Long and boring post, sorry.

[TimoTolkki]

In my opinion, there are pros and cons with religions.

Religion can help people who are in despair, for ex : an old man whose wife just passed away. Religion can help this man to survive after the loss of his dear. Some people can find help in work, drugs, alcohol or suicide.
So, if someone decides to get his help from God instead, I don't see how bad it can be!

On the other hand, when you look around, religion is the main source of conflict between men.
Ex, all those Al-Caida fkg fanatics who think that their achievement in life is to sacrifice themselves for "God" and kill innocent people, just because they have a different believe.

Besides, I think the Bible is just a sci-fi novel.
I don't mean that nothing mentionned on it is pure fiction, I just say that no one can be sure at 100% that the facts mentionned in it did happen for real. Some people are so much into religion that they believe everything which is written on the Bible, and blame you if you dare to say the opposite! No one can be 100 % sure of anything, for ex that Jesus was a man. Maybe Jesus was a woman, maybe an animal, or maybe just a spirit.


I am absolutely ok with any religion, as long as the people respect others (including the ones with different believes).
I just hate when the people who are devoted to God, they try to give lessons to non believers, telling that we cannot be happy, that we will end up in Hell and so on. Everybody is free to believe (in) anything they want, as long as they respect others and don't harm anyone!

I personally don't believe in God, but i do believe that there is something above us, I just don't want to give "it" any name or any form.
For ex, how can someone explains the creation of Life, the perfect environnement on Earth for Life (oxygen, light, water...), that the human body is a perfect machine, that we are able to eat, drink, breath, move. That everything a human body needs is around us. Or how the reproduction system is amazingly perfect (that men and women's "body" fit perfectly together). The cycles of life. The change of seasons...
I mean, even with the most-scientific mind and knowledge, it's not possible that all those things happened either "by coincidence", either with "Evolution". There is definitely something (or someone) who helped.
I just think it's stupid to give it a name, and try to explain it just with one book which was written 2000 years ago!
After all, maybe God's real name is Yngwie Malmsteen?

Long and boring post, sorry.

A big Yngwie fan died and went to heaven. He was walking there and suddenly he heard "Black Star" from somewhere. He went to one angel and asked: "Did Yngwie die, I heard him playing here"?. "No no, Yngwie is alive, not here", the angel aswered. Then the next day the Yngwie fan was walking and now he heard "Heaven Tonight". He rushed to another angel and asked the same question only to hear the same answer. No no, Yngwie is still alive. Next day came and the fan was again walking and now heard "Trilogy Suite". Now he could not take it anymore. He rushed to the first angel and almost shouted:"Yngwie must be dead!! I hear him playing every day here in heaven". The angel responded:" oh no no my son. You have misunderstood. That´s just God, he thinks he´s Yngwie".

[JensJohansson]

I have this car accident and see me and other people flying around like puppets, so vulnerable, fragile, as the vehicle fall off the road. Then, for some reason I don't think "please God, save me". Instead of that In that very moment I think or feel "men, we are that fragile and in hands of Destiny or Fate that we (mankind) created this God to feel protected".
Then I stopped to believe in God!! I cannot stop to seeing religion as just an invention, but I doubt thet there are a plot to control people. If so, why don't think the same about every other religious, mystical or "new-age" belief ?

This reminded me of something I read in April:

https://forum.textdrive.com/viewtopic.php?id=15218

[JensJohansson]

I think..... that Hitler was actually a care bear that turned to the dark side of the force when he found out that Darth Borat was his father and his brother. Then he escaped to the mountains of Ethopia to embark on a deep spiritual awakening. When he returned from Ethopia he traveled, on foot, to Istanbul. Taking with him only 2 tissues, a toothpick, a stick of butter, a saftey pin and a twinkie, and was able to make the journey in only 3 days. Once he arrived in Istanbul he changed his name to Marty, and set up a lemonade stand. Where, over the course of 5 years he made his fortune, he sold his lemonade stand for a quarter to an asian gnome that was passing by. Using the Segway he bought in Istanbul, he traversed over a great distance to a cave in south eastern France, where he rallied an army of middle aged walruses and antelope, and declared war on the indigenous migets, who fled to a pirate cove in Whales and were never seen or heard from again.
The End

I also believe that animals go to heaven when they die.

I met Marty... he smelled a lot like walrus. As the old story goes... just like a plumber, he likes a tight seal. Har har har

Animals have consciousness, so I would agree! But what does the Bible have to say about that?

[JensJohansson]

I do understand what you're saying, but have you or Tolkki actually ever read the Bible before? Not what we call "Bible Bingo"- just randomly reading verses, but the entire thing, cover to cover?

I can't speak for Timo, but I never did. Just the bingo version. I suspect you're more versed in "Das Kapital" than I am in the Bible! I read neither cover-to-cover.

I also understand that both of you were probably brought up in secular households in your respective countries. There's certainly nothing wrong with that, which probably explains why you view the Bible as the same as you would, let's say, Norse mythology- the whole Odin, Thor, and Loki thing.

Yeah.. actually the countries themselves are heavily secularized, and in a more-than-average secular household in an already secularized country I suppose you can imagine all religions get pretty equal space among the choices (or non-choices as in my case).

I know the usual argument is that atheism or agnosticism or secular humanism or whatever is also a religion, but to me that's like saying that bald is a hair color.

I guess the good news is that we agree that most of the gods in the world don't exist. We just disagree about that one God who planted his cross on a bunch of European flags! And at that we might not even disagree that much. It's just some of the more political and concrete or literal points of Christianity that I disagree with. Some of the more philosophical aspects I agree with. But I realize that Christianity is a pretty definite set of ideas, and I can't pick and choose ideas and still call myself a Christian. Therefore I can state conclusively that I am not a Christian.

Some of the Norse mythology is pretty brilliant! I would much rather hang out with Loki than the arch-angel Gabriel. Even though it probably would cost me dearly, I'd have my hair cut, a bunch of my tools stolen, my food eaten, etc.

Well, America was founded partially due to what was considered the tyranny of the Anglican (a/k/a Episcopal) church, and many of the original colonists decided to "rough it" over here in what was the wilderness of the New World, rather than continue to be controlled by either Canterbury or for that matter, Rome. So yes, I can completely understand your points above.

It's hard also for anyone to comprehend the scope of destruction that sectarian violence wreaked on Europe the last 1500 years or so without burying yourself in history books. The scope of those disasters makes (for instance) the present sunni/shia conflicts look like a nice little sunday picnic... and it's a past that some would rather just forget...

So people really are supicious for a reason.. and I think the framers of the US constitution were very determined not to repeat the mistake of having any sort of "state church".

I was well aware of the Soviet era propaganda, and we have seen the results of what seven and a half decades did for them. Tens of millions murdered by the state and for the sake of none other than the state itself, and now a state that exists solely for profit- sort of a combination oligarchy and kleptocracy along with a growing dose of Fascism.

I don't know so much about how it is in Russia nowadays, but i know it's better this way than how it was.. at least people are allowed to leave now!

But I had no idea that the kids in Sweden were indoctrinated with the Socialist propaganda, and the things that you've described.

Definitely.. some programs were just ridiculously blatant. To the point of being comical, even to a kid. The 70s were definitely the worst.

At that time, I remember that I was rather (pleasantly) surprised that the authorities allowed you guys to even play there. I'm sure that "Kooperativ" probably helped to relieve the overall boredom of the tour bus or airplane!

I don't think i ever played it. What's the point of playing monopoly if you can't monopolize things and generally behave like an evil robber baron!?!

My father was in St. Petersburg on business (Leningrad) about a year or two after you guys played there, and he said that it was a beautiful, although very dangerous city. His interpreter told him not to leave his hotel room at night, and to not answer the door. He remembers hearing automatic weapons fire all night long in the streets nearby.

It's better than that nowadays, that i can say for sure!

It hasn't been only the Church and Communism, there were also the Nazis, and other thuggish monarchies and dictatorships that have plagued Europe for a long time.

Between say 800 AD and mid 1800s the dictatorships (kingdoms, or whatever they may have been called) were heavily interdependent with Christianity. It's only the last 150 years that the "preaching class" lost their grip on politics. Usually the monarch was said to rule with divine authority, and that was that.

My current concern is that Europe has utterly no will to confront radical Islam before it's too late. All in all, it's my opinion that Communism, Socialism, and Fascism did far more damage to the people of Europe than the church ever could have, and that radical Islam just may be the final nail in the coffin, so to speak. Just my $0.02 though.

Radical islam is not at all entrenched in European power structures though, and I at least think it would be very difficult for it to get a foothold, precisely because of the deep suspiciousness toward radical-anything, be it the radical islamic imperialism of Osama Bin Dustbin, the radical Christian imperialism of emperor Ferdinand I, the radical socialism of Stalin, or the radical nationalism, antisemitism and social darwinism of Hitler... old Adi got the most -isms because he was the worst so far, maybe not percentage wise (killed as percent of the european population) but in absolute numbers he was the worst......... so far.

And then over here in the States, I recently saw an amusing story entitled: "Tom Cruise: Scientology's new Goebbels?" The irony that he is scheduled to being filming "Walkyrie" and starring as Graf von Stauffenberg was not lost on me.

Germans have had some REALLY bad experiences with cults... ; ) think of it as an allergic reaction.

[JensJohansson]

Religion can help people who are in despair, for ex : an old man whose wife just passed away. Religion can help this man to survive after the loss of his dear. Some people can find help in work, drugs, alcohol or suicide. So, if someone decides to get his help from God instead, I don't see how bad it can be!

Pretty much mirrors the review of Dennett's "Breaking the Spell" in New York Times, but with a bit more understanding.

ny times

or if that link doesnt work (it looks a bit suspcious to me..)

http://www.stratovarius.com/forum/denne ... ltier.html

I think the book is pretty good, by the way.

[:)]

I think..... that Hitler was actually a care bear that turned to the dark side of the force when he found out that Darth Borat was his father and his brother. Then he escaped to the mountains of Ethopia to embark on a deep spiritual awakening. When he returned from Ethopia he traveled, on foot, to Istanbul. Taking with him only 2 tissues, a toothpick, a stick of butter, a saftey pin and a twinkie, and was able to make the journey in only 3 days. Once he arrived in Istanbul he changed his name to Marty, and set up a lemonade stand. Where, over the course of 5 years he made his fortune, he sold his lemonade stand for a quarter to an asian gnome that was passing by. Using the Segway he bought in Istanbul, he traversed over a great distance to a cave in south eastern France, where he rallied an army of middle aged walruses and antelope, and declared war on the indigenous migets, who fled to a pirate cove in Whales and were never seen or heard from again.
The End

I also believe that animals go to heaven when they die.

I met Marty... he smelled a lot like walrus. As the old story goes... just like a plumber, he likes a tight seal. Har har har

Animals have consciousness, so I would agree! But what does the Bible have to say about that?

It very -OBVIOUSLY- only matters what *I* have to say about it. Because I have the last word on animals.

[RammaGun]

I have this car accident and see me and other people flying around like puppets, so vulnerable, fragile, as the vehicle fall off the road. Then, for some reason I don't think "please God, save me". Instead of that In that very moment I think or feel "men, we are that fragile and in hands of Destiny or Fate that we (mankind) created this God to feel protected".
Then I stopped to believe in God!! I cannot stop to seeing religion as just an invention, but I doubt thet there are a plot to control people. If so, why don't think the same about every other religious, mystical or "new-age" belief ?

This reminded me of something I read in April:

https://forum.textdrive.com/viewtopic.php?id=15218

Like everybody, I have had that feeling of conection with others, specially respect to dear beings (near family, wife, friends). Only the sociopaths do not have it because they are incapable of empathy. I agree whereupon if we were more conscientious of the others, the world would be better. In fact, I believe that without loving and being loved, we simply can't survive, which is one of the reasons for which we looked for to belong to a group. Now, there is something bad respect to how we act as members of a group: we tend to magnify the differences that we have with the people who do not belong to our group. This, partly, generates hostility feelings, because the other people are perceived like more different than they really are (from to consider them "different" to "enemy", there are, sometimes, a short stretch). Then, we created verbal and nonverbal rules, rites, languages. This "over differentiation" is, I think, one of the problems that religions or other systems of organized beliefs have. But, to be happy or fulfilled we needed, in addition, to have a sense, a deep intention (perhaps you know the book of Viktor Frankl "for Man's search for meaning"). For me this continues being the question (as it says certain song of certain band): Why Are We Here?

[stratoplayer]

I personally don't believe in God, but i do believe that there is something above us, I just don't want to give "it" any name or any form.
For ex, how can someone explains the creation of Life, the perfect environnement on Earth for Life (oxygen, light, water...), that the human body is a perfect machine, that we are able to eat, drink, breath, move. That everything a human body needs is around us. Or how the reproduction system is amazingly perfect (that men and women's "body" fit perfectly together). The cycles of life. The change of seasons...
I mean, even with the most-scientific mind and knowledge, it's not possible that all those things happened either "by coincidence", either with "Evolution". There is definitely something (or someone) who helped.
I just think it's stupid to give it a name, and try to explain it just with one book which was written 2000 years ago!
After all, maybe God's real name is Yngwie Malmsteen?

Long and boring post, sorry.

I agree with most of what you said, but the last paragraph can be explained as such, the universe, us, everything didn't start out perfect, well, most physical laws/behaviors are pretty much perpetual, just the way things are, but this planet is dumb luck, we humans evolved and adapted to oxygen, to our environment and it took a whole lot of time and many died trying to adapt.

What I'm trying to say, and it is sort of my mantra, things happen either by luck or by sheer will! (A combination of both is also good!)

[:)]

Religion can help people who are in despair, for ex : an old man whose wife just passed away. Religion can help this man to survive after the loss of his dear. Some people can find help in work, drugs, alcohol or suicide. So, if someone decides to get his help from God instead, I don't see how bad it can be!

Pretty much mirrors the review of Dennett's "Breaking the Spell" in New York Times, but with a bit more understanding.

ny times

or if that link doesnt work (it looks a bit suspcious to me..)

http://www.stratovarius.com/forum/denne ... ltier.html

I think the book is pretty good, by the way.

Just out of curiosity, jens, do you feel that there is a baseline connection between hitler and the relative shape of bananas?

[JensJohansson]

Just out of curiosity, jens, do you feel that there is a baseline connection between hitler and the relative shape of bananas?

Yes!! Of course!

<img src="http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpre ... 517_rs.jpg" width=500px>

[:)]

Just out of curiosity, jens, do you feel that there is a baseline connection between hitler and the relative shape of bananas?

Yes!! Of course!

<img src="http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpre ... 517_rs.jpg" width=500px>

:)
hahahahahahahahaha

[miditek]

I do understand what you're saying, but have you or Tolkki actually ever read the Bible before? Not what we call "Bible Bingo"- just randomly reading verses, but the entire thing, cover to cover?

I can't speak for Timo, but I never did. Just the bingo version. I suspect you're more versed in "Das Kapital" than I am in the Bible! I read neither cover-to-cover.

I guess it's safe to say that I've read more than enough Marxist and Trotskyite propaganda that I'd care to admit.

I also understand that both of you were probably brought up in secular households in your respective countries. There's certainly nothing wrong with that, which probably explains why you view the Bible as the same as you would, let's say, Norse mythology- the whole Odin, Thor, and Loki thing.

Yeah.. actually the countries themselves are heavily secularized, and in a more-than-average secular household in an already secularized country I suppose you can imagine all religions get pretty equal space among the choices (or non-choices as in my case).

Excellent analogy- and it's certainly something that I can relate to. As I'm sure that you're already well aware, there are plenty of secular households here in America as well.

Sometimes I think that it's a wonder that I actually have the beliefs that I do, considering I was a the offspring of this type of dysfunctional household:

Parental alter-egos

wrestleinfo.com/Img76.jpg

geocities.com/Wellesley/3657/danapics/church_l.jpg

I know the usual argument is that atheism or agnosticism or secular humanism or whatever is also a religion, but to me that's like saying that bald is a hair color.

Yes, that is frequently an argument that many Christians will use, although it is not one that I've subscribed to for the most part. The overall lifestyle differences in secularists and truly religious people are like night and day. So it is rather difficult to describe the choice of non-belief as an organized set of beliefs in and of itself. Even Spock himself would probably find such a notion to be, well, illogical.

I guess the good news is that we agree that most of the gods in the world don't exist. We just disagree about that one God who planted his cross on a bunch of European flags! And at that we might not even disagree that much.

And for some reason, you really don't seem to get quite as excited or irritated when discussing religious concepts as others (both religious and secular) do, and that is a pretty rare thing in this day and age.

It's just some of the more political and concrete or literal points of Christianity that I disagree with. Some of the more philosophical aspects I agree with. But I realize that Christianity is a pretty definite set of ideas, and I can't pick and choose ideas and still call myself a Christian. Therefore I can state conclusively that I am not a Christian.

Even the great Christian author and apologist C.S. Lewis had his moments of doubt and disagreement with the Almighty. In chapter 8 of his classic book, "The Problem of Pain", he wrote:

"In an earlier chapter it was admitted that the pain which alone could rouse the bad man to a knowledge that all was not well, might also lead to a final and unrepented rebellion. And it has been admitted throughout that man has free will and that all gifts to him are therefore two-edged."

"From these premises it follows directly that Divine labour to redeem the world cannot be certain of succeeding as regards every individual soul. Some will not be redeemed. There is no doctrine which I would more willingly remove from Christianity than this, if it lay in my power."

Lewis also described even more disagreements with God in another classic, "A Grief Observed", when his faith was shaken to its very foundations after the death of his American wife, Joy Gresham. Their marriage was very brief and her life was cut short by cancer.

Some of the Norse mythology is pretty brilliant! I would much rather hang out with Loki than the arch-angel Gabriel. Even though it probably would cost me dearly, I'd have my hair cut, a bunch of my tools stolen, my food eaten, etc.

Believe it or not, I learned about the Æsir gods in a Norse literature class at, of all things, a parochial (Anglican) school, no less. I was fascinated with all of the texts that we had to read, and was especially interested in Thor, of course, as well as the epic battle of Ragnarök. I sort of viewed it as Pagan eschatology, if such a thing exists!

I'm not so sure that I'd want Loki as a drinking buddy, though. If he were anything like some people I've known, you might wake up with half-shaved eyebrows, full makeup, toothpaste in your ear and shaving cream in your shoes!

Since it's unlikely that Gabriel or St. Michael indulge in alcohol, I would personally feel at least a bit safer around either of them.

Well, America was founded partially due to what was considered the tyranny of the Anglican (a/k/a Episcopal) church, and many of the original colonists decided to "rough it" over here in what was the wilderness of the New World, rather than continue to be controlled by either Canterbury or for that matter, Rome. So yes, I can completely understand your points above.

It's hard also for anyone to comprehend the scope of destruction that sectarian violence wreaked on Europe the last 1500 years or so without burying yourself in history books. The scope of those disasters makes (for instance) the present sunni/shia conflicts look like a nice little sunday picnic... and it's a past that some would rather just forget...

Absolutely true. Most people either don't know, or they don't care. Two unfortunate situations, in other words. Although I think that the worst violence in Europe was certainly within the past 100 years, and probably had very little to do with religion nearly as much as it did with politics. The Church certainly has had its share of crimes, but as far as scale and capacity, the secularists like Hitler and Stalin certainly stand heads above all the rest.

So people really are suspicious for a reason.. and I think the framers of the US constitution were very determined not to repeat the mistake of having any sort of "state church".

I think that you are probably right about this, although I do think that the Founding Father's original intent was the freedom to worship as they chose to do so. Nowadays, that has been misinterpreted as a guarantee of "freedom from religion" by a very loud, obnoxious, and vocal minority here. No one is dragging people to the church (or for that matter, the dunking plank or the gallows a la the Salem Witch Trials), but to hear some people talk, they think that all religions should be completely abolished.

I was well aware of the Soviet era propaganda, and we have seen the results of what seven and a half decades did for them. Tens of millions murdered by the state and for the sake of none other than the state itself, and now a state that exists solely for profit- sort of a combination oligarchy and kleptocracy along with a growing dose of Fascism.

I don't know so much about how it is in Russia nowadays, but i know it's better this way than how it was.. at least people are allowed to leave now!

Yes, that has definitely changed. In addition to the average Soviet citizen, there were many Jews that were held against their will during both the Czarist and Communist eras. It was sort of like, "we don't want you, but then again, you are not permitted to leave, either."

But I had no idea that the kids in Sweden were indoctrinated with the Socialist propaganda, and the things that you've described.

Definitely.. some programs were just ridiculously blatant. To the point of being comical, even to a kid. The 70s were definitely the worst.

Did you find yourself laughing at the said programs, or did you simply try to ignore them? Also, was there eventually a backlash among the Swedish voters because of this, or did the programs just eventually fall out of favor or become obsolete?

At that time, I remember that I was rather (pleasantly) surprised that the authorities allowed you guys to even play there. I'm sure that "Kooperativ" probably helped to relieve the overall boredom of the tour bus or airplane!

I don't think i ever played it. What's the point of playing monopoly if you can't monopolize things and generally behave like an evil robber baron!?!

By the way, who is your all time favorite robber baron? Murdoch? Gates? Trump? Branson?

Personally, I used to be a big fan of the fictional oil baron J.R. Ewing on "Dallas" when I was younger.

My father was in St. Petersburg on business (Leningrad) about a year or two after you guys played there, and he said that it was a beautiful, although very dangerous city. His interpreter told him not to leave his hotel room at night, and to not answer the door. He remembers hearing automatic weapons fire all night long in the streets nearby.

It's better than that nowadays, that i can say for sure!

Thank God for that! I haven't personally known a great deal of Russians, but the ones that I do known I've actually liked quite a bit. Most of the ones that I've known are fascinating people.

It hasn't been only the Church and Communism, there were also the Nazis, and other thuggish monarchies and dictatorships that have plagued Europe for a long time.

Between say 800 AD and mid 1800s the dictatorships (kingdoms, or whatever they may have been called) were heavily interdependent with Christianity. It's only the last 150 years that the "preaching class" lost their grip on politics. Usually the monarch was said to rule with divine authority, and that was that.

The preaching class was eventually replaced by the gutter (Nazis and Communists). I'm not sure who was worse (in their hearts/minds), but the Nazis and Soviets were certainly more efficient, given the apparatus and technology of the modern police state, led by despots that were not restrained by anything, not even traditional Judeo-Christian ethics. No belief in God sort of equated no fear (or respect) of God, with tragic consequences.

My current concern is that Europe has utterly no will to confront radical Islam before it's too late. All in all, it's my opinion that Communism, Socialism, and Fascism did far more damage to the people of Europe than the church ever could have, and that radical Islam just may be the final nail in the coffin, so to speak. Just my $0.02 though.

Radical islam is not at all entrenched in European power structures though, and I at least think it would be very difficult for it to get a foothold, precisely because of the deep suspiciousness toward radical-anything, be it the radical islamic imperialism of Osama Bin Dustbin, the radical Christian imperialism of emperor Ferdinand I, the radical socialism of Stalin, or the radical nationalism, antisemitism and social darwinism of Hitler...

I think that's an accurate assessment- the not currently entrenched in European power structures type of thing. However, I do believe that radical Islam is given far more tolerance than it should- and therein lies the danger.

If Europe wants "diversity", then it should look no further than itself- but as individual states. Trying to change cultures as diverse as the ones in Europe to one, big, giant multi-cultural super state (at the expense of the uniqueness that is inherent in each European country)is a recipe for folly, in my opinion. The former Austro-Hungarian Empire, as well as the former Republic of Yugoslavia are two more modern and prime examples of why this approach typically does not work.

old Adi got the most -isms because he was the worst so far, maybe not percentage wise (killed as percent of the European population) but in absolute numbers he was the worst......... so far.

I see that you noted so far twice. I also think that Hitler was the worst so far as well. Hindenburg once said, "That man, for Chancellor? I'll make him Postmaster and he can lick stamps with my head on them, but Chancellor? Never!" although I personally believe that one is coming (in fact, he may already be here) that will make both Stalin and Hitler (combined) look like rank amateurs.

And then over here in the States, I recently saw an amusing story entitled: "Tom Cruise: Scientology's new Goebbels?" The irony that he is scheduled to being filming "Walkyrie" and starring as Graf von Stauffenberg was not lost on me.

Germans have had some REALLY bad experiences with cults... ; ) think of it as an allergic reaction.

I did read an article that said that the Heer (German army) has stated that they will not assist in the filming of this picture, and that the army will not be used as a vehicle in which to promote a cult like Scientology. So I can see where the allergic reaction analogy could also apply to them as well.

[browneyedgirl]

Here are some C.S. Lewis quotes... He was a very intelligent man!

C.S. Lewis Quote Page
"The Moral Law tells us the tune we have to play: our instincts are merely the keys..."
--Mere Christianity
"The proper rewards are not simply tacked on to the activity for which they are given, but are the activity itself in consummation."
--The Weight of Glory
"You and I have need of the strongest spell that can be found to wake us from the evil enchantment of worldliness."
--The Weight of Glory
"Perfect humility dispenses with modesty."
--The Weight of Glory
"If God is satisfied with the work, the work may be satisfied with itself."
--The Weight of Glory
"When humans should have become as perfect in voluntary obedience as the inanimate creation is in its lifeless obedience, then they will put on its glory, or rather that greater glory of which Nature is only the first sketch."
--The Weight of Glory
"As long as this deliberate refusal to understand things from above, even where such understanding is possible, continues, it is idle to talk of any final victory over materialism."
--The Weight of Glory
"No Christian and, indeed, no historian could accept the epigram which defines religion as 'what a man does with his solitude.'"
--The Weight of Glory
"We live, in fact, in a world starved for solitude, silence, and private: and therefore starved for meditation and true friendship."
--The Weight of Glory
"To make Christianity a private affair while banishing all privacy is to relegate it to the rainbow's end or the Greek Calends."
--The Weight of Glory
"100 per cent of us die, and the percentage cannot be increased."
--The Weight of Glory
"When you invite a middle-aged moralist to address you, I suppose I must conclude...that you have a taste for middle-aged moralizing."
--The Weight of Glory
"Whenever you find a man who says he doesn't believe in a real Right and Wrong, you will find the same man going back on this a moment later."
--The Case for Christianity
"This year, or this month, or, more likely, this very day, we have failed to practise ourselves the kind of behaviour we expect from other people."
--The Case for Christianity
"Human beings, all over the earth, have this curious idea that they ought to behave in a certain way, and can't really get rid of it."
--The Case for Christianity
"Safety and happiness can only come from individuals, classes, and nations being honest and fair and kind to each other."
--The Case for Christianity
"Reality, in fact, is always something you couldn't have guessed. That's one of the reasons I believe Christianity. It's a religion you couldn't have guessed."
--The Case for Christianity
"Badness is only spoiled goodness."
--The Case for Christianity
"God has landed on this enemy-occupied world in human form...The perfect surrender and humiliation was undergone by Christ: perfect because He was God, surrender and humiliation because He was man."
--The Case for Christianity
"Now is our chance to choose the right side. God is holding back to give us that chance. It won't last forever. We must take it or leave it."
--The Case for Christianity
"It is in the process of being worshipped that God communicates His presence to men."
--Reflections on the Psalms
"I think we delight to praise what we enjoy because the praise not merely expresses but completes the enjoyment; it is its appointed consummation."
--Reflections on the Psalms
"The Psalmists in telling everyone to praise God are doing what all men do when they speak of what they care about."
--Reflections on the Psalms
"Every poem can be considered in two ways--as what the poet has to say, and as a thing which he makes."
--A Preface to Paradise Lost
"The modern idea of a Great Man is one who stands at the lonely extremity of some single line of development--"
--A Preface to Paradise Lost
"Disobedience to conscience is voluntary; bad poetry, on the other hand, is usually not made on purpose."
--A Preface to Paradise Lost
"Reasoning is never, like poetry, judged from the outside at all."
--A Preface to Paradise Lost
"Only the skilled can judge the skillfulness, but that is not the same as judging the value of the result."
--A Preface to Paradise Lost
"Who can endure a doctrine which would allow only dentists to say whether our teeth were aching, only cobblers to say whether our shoes hurt us, and only governments to tell us whether we were being well governed?"
--A Preface to Paradise Lost
"Everything except God has some natural superior; everything except unformed matter has some natural inferior."
--A Preface to Paradise Lost
"Without sin, the universe is a Solemn Game: and there is no good game without rules."
--A Preface to Paradise Lost
"In the midst of a world of light and love, of song and feast and dance, [Lucifer] could find nothing to think of more interesting than his own prestige."
--A Preface to Paradise Lost
"It is in their 'good' characters that novelists make, unawares, the most shocking self- revelations."
--A Preface to Paradise Lost
"People blush at praise--not only praise of their bodies, but praise of anything that is theirs."
--A Preface to Paradise Lost
"To fight in another man's armour is something more than to be influenced by his style of fighting."
--The Allegory of Love
"The heart never takes the place of the head: but it can, and should, obey it."
--The Abolition of Man
"It still remains true that no justification of virtue will enable a man to be virtuous."
--The Abolition of Man
"Without the aid of trained emotions the intellect is powerless against the animal organism."
--The Abolition of Man
"As the king governs by his executive, so Reason in man must rule the mere appetites by means of the 'spirited element.'"
--The Abolition of Man
"A great many of those who 'debunk' traditional...values have in the background values of their own which they believe to be immune from the debunking process."
--The Abolition of Man
"The preservation of society, and of the species itself, are ends that do not hang on the precarious thread of Reason: they are given by Instinct."
--The Abolition of Man
"If we did not bring to the examinations of our instincts a knowledge of their comparative dignity we could never learn it from them."
--The Abolition of Man
"An open mind, in questions that are not ultimate, is useful. But an open mind about the ultimate foundations either of Theoretical or of Practical Reason is idiocy."
--The Abolition of Man
"Wherever any precept of traditional morality is simply challenged to produce its credentials, as though the burden of proof lay on it, we have taken the wrong position."
--The Abolition of Man
"If we are to have values at all we must accept the ultimate platitudes of Practical Reason as having absolute validity..."
--The Abolition of Man
"What we call Man's power over Nature turns out to be a power exercised by some men over other men with Nature as its instrument."
--The Abolition of Man
"Man's conquest of Nature turns out, in the moment of its consummation, to be Nature's conquest of Man."
--The Abolition of Man
"No doubt those who really founded modern science were usually those whose love of truth exceeded their love of power."
--The Abolition of Man
"You have gone into the Temple...and found Him, as always, there."
--from a letter "To A Lady"
"Relying on God has to begin all over again every day as if nothing had yet been done..."
--from a letter "To Mrs. L." (50)
"...art can teach without at all ceasing to be art."
--from a letter to "I.O. Evans"
"If the universe is so bad...how on earth did human beings ever come to attribute it to the activity of a wise and good Creator?"
--The Problem of Pain
"Love is something more stern and splendid than mere kindness."
--The Problem of Pain
"Love may forgive all infirmities and love still in spite of them: but Love cannot cease to will their removal."
--The Problem of Pain
"When we are such as He can love without impediment, we shall in fact be happy."
--The Problem of Pain
"When God becomes a Man and lives as a creature among His own creatures in Palestine, then indeed His life is one of supreme self-sacrifice and leads to Calvary."
--The Problem of Pain
"If we will not learn to eat the only food that the universe grows...then we must starve eternally."
--The Problem of Pain
"Everyone feels benevolent if nothing happens to be annoying him at the moment."
--The Problem of Pain
"Unless Christianity is wholly false, the perception of ourselves which we have in moments of shame must be the only true one..."
--The Problem of Pain
"The 'frankness' of people sunk below shame is a very cheap frankness."
--The Problem of Pain
"We have a strange illusion that mere time cancels sin. But mere time does nothing either to the fact or to the guilt of a sin."
--The Problem of Pain
"It is by human avarice or human stupidity, not by the churlishness of nature, that we have poverty and overwork."
--The Problem of Pain
"God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks in our conscience, but shouts in our pains: it is His megaphone to rouse a deaf world."
--The Problem of Pain
"[Pain] removes the veil; it plants the flag of truth within the fortress of a rebel soul."
--The Problem of Pain
"We regard God as an airman regards his parachute; it's there for emergencies but he hopes he'll never have to use it."
--The Problem of Pain
"It matters enormously if I alienate anyone from the truth."
--The Problem of Pain
"Those who would like the God of scripture to be more purely ethical, do not know what they ask."
--The Problem of Pain
"[God] is not proud...He will have us even though we have shown that we prefer everything else to Him."
--The Problem of Pain
"If God were a Kantian, who would not have us till we came to Him from the purest and best motives, who could be saved?"
--The Problem of Pain
"Tribulations cannot cease until God either sees us remade or sees that our remaking is now hopeless."
--The Problem of Pain
"Those who would most scornfully repudiate Christianity as a mere "opiate of the people" have a contempt for the rich, that is, for all mankind except the poor."
--The Problem of Pain
"Every uncorrected error and unrepented sin is, in its own right, a fountain of fresh error and fresh sin flowing on to the end of time."
--The Problem of Pain
"Heaven offers nothing that a mercenary soul can desire."
--The Problem of Pain
"Be sure that the ins and outs of your individuality are no mystery to Him; and one day they will no longer be a mystery to you."
--The Problem of Pain
"God will look to every soul like its first love because He is its first love."
--The Problem of Pain
"No good work is done anywhere without aid from the Father of Lights."
--Reflections on the Psalms
"An Ulster Scot may come to disbelieve in God, but not to wear his weekday clothes on the Sabbath."
--Surprised by Joy
"To be discontinuous from God as I am discontinuous from you would be annihilation."
--Letters to Malcolm
"'You come of the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve,' said Aslan. 'And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor in earth.'"
--Prince Caspian
"Christ died for men precisely because men are not worth dying for; to make them worth it."
--The World's Last Night
"Surely what a man does when he is taken off his guard is the best evidence for what sort of man he is..."
--Mere Christianity
"Nothing is yet in its true form."
--Till We Have Faces
"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world."
--Mere Christianity
"If you are really a product of a materialistic universe, how is it that you don't feel at home there?"
--Encounter with Light
"It now seemed that...the deepest thirst within him was not adapted to the deepest nature of the world."
--The Pilgrim's Regress
"Though I do not believe that my desire for Paradise proves that I shall enjoy it, I think it a pretty good indication that such a thing exists and that some men will."
--Transposition and Other addresses
"We are born helpless. As soon as we are fully conscious we discover loneliness..."
--Transposition and Other addresses
"It was when I was happiest that I longed most...The sweetest thing in all my life has been the longing...to find the place where all the beauty came from."
--Till We Have Faces
"There is a kind of happiness and wonder that makes you serious. It is too good to waste on jokes."
--The Last Battle
"The very nature of Joy makes nonsense of our common distinction between having and wanting."
--Surprised by Joy
"All joy...emphasizes our pilgrim status; always reminds, beckons, awakens desire. Our best havings are wantings."
--from an unknown letter
"Joy is the serious business of Heaven."
--Letters to Malcolm
"'You would not have called to me unless I had been calling to you,'" said the Lion."
--The Silver Chair
"A young man who wishes to remain a sound Atheist cannot be too careful of his reading. There are traps everywhere--'Bibles laid open, millions of surprises,' as Herbert says, 'fine nets and stratagems.' God is, if I may say it, very unscrupulous."
--Surprised by Joy
"Thus, and not otherwise, the world was made. Either something or nothing must depend on individual choices."
--Perelandra
"Try to exclude the possibility of suffering which the order of nature and the existence of free-wills involve, and you find that you have excluded life itself."
--The Problem of Pain
"If God thinks this state of war in the universe a price worth paying for free will...then we may take it it is worth paying."
--Mere Christianity
"Until you have given up your self to Him you will not have a real self..."
--Mere Christianity
"Critics who treat adult as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves."
--On Three Ways of Writing for Children
"The worst attitude of all would be the professional attitude which regards children in the lump as a sort of raw material which we have to handle."
--On Three Ways of Writing for Children (100)
"Truth and falsehood are opposed; but truth is the norm not of truth only but of falsehood also."
--The Allegory of Love
"If nothing is self-evident, nothing can be proved. Similarly if nothing is obligatory for its own sake, nothing is obligatory at all."
--The Abolition of Man
"The human mind has no more power of inventing a new value than of planting a new sun in the sky or a new primary colour in the spectrum..."
--Christian Reflections
"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike...Unless we return to the crude and nursery-like belief in objective values, we perish."
--Christian Reflections
"Atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning..."
--Mere Christianity
"If we retain only what can be justified by standards of prudence and convenience at he bar of enlightened common sense, then we exchange revelation for that old wraith Natural Religion."
--'Notes on the Way', Time and Tide
"When you are arguing against Him you are arguing against the very power that makes you able to argue at all."
--Mere Christianity
"If naturalism were true then all thoughts whatever would be wholly the result of irrational causes...it cuts its own throat."
--A Christian Reply to Professor Price
"Unless thought is valid we have no reason to believe in the real universe."
--Christian Reflections
"A universe whose only claim to be believed in rests on the validity of inference must not start telling us the inference is invalid..."
--Christian Reflections
"The laws of thought are also the laws of things: of things in the remotest space and the remotest time."
--Christian Reflections
"Morality or duty...never yet made a man happy in himself or dear to others."
--English Literature in the 16th Century
"You would not call a man humane for ceasing to set mousetraps if he did so because he believed there were no mice in the house."
--Mere Christianity
"There is nothing indulgent about the Moral Law. It is as hard as nails...If God is like the Moral Law, then He is not soft."
--Mere Christianity
"Morality, like numinous awe, is a jump; in it, man goes beyond anything that can be 'given' in the facts of experience."
--The Problem of Pain
"All men alike stand condemned, not by alien codes of ethics, but by their own, and all men therefore are conscious of guilt."
--The Problem of Pain
"[Consciousness] is either inexplicable illusion, or else revelation."
--The Problem of Pain
"The road to the promised land runs past Sinai."
--The Problem of Pain
"Of all bad men religious bad men are the worst."
--Reflections on the Psalms
"It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies."
--The Humanitarian Theory of Punishment
"Those that hate goodness are sometimes nearer than those that know nothing at all about it and think they have it already."
--The Great Divorce
"I'm on Aslan's side even if there isn't any Aslan to lead it. I'm going to live as like a Narnian as I can even if there isn't any Narnia."
--The Silver Chair
"Certain things, if not seen as lovely or detestable, are not being correctly seen at all."
--Letters to Malcolm
"[One] can regard the moral law as an illusion, and so cut himself off from the common ground of humanity."
--The Problem of Pain
"Human intellect is incurably abstract."
--Myth Became Fact, World Dominion
"The more lucidly we think, the more we are cut off: the more deeply we enter into reality, the less we can think."
--Myth Became Fact, World Dominion
"You cannot study Pleasure in the moment of the nuptial embrace, nor repentance while repenting, nor analyze the nature of humour while roaring with laughter."
--Myth Became Fact, World Dominion
"The surest way of spoiling a pleasure [is] to start examining your satisfaction."
--Surprised by Joy
"History is a story written by the finger of God."
--Christian Reflections
"This moment contains all moments."
--The Great Divorce
"Where, except in the present, can the Eternal be met?"
--Christian Reflections
"So many things--nay every real thing--is good if only it will be humble and ordinate."
--Letters
"There are no variations except for those who know a norm, and no subtleties for those who have not grasped the obvious."
--An Experiment in Criticism
"If there is equality it is in His love, not in us."
--Transposition and Other Addresses
"Authority exercised with humility, and obedience accepted with delight are the very lines along which our spirits live."
--Transposition and Other Addresses
"Beauty is not democratic; she reveals herself more to the few than to the many..."
--'Notes on the Way' Time and Tide
"Democracy demands that little men should not take big ones too seriously; it dies when it is full of little men who think they are big themselves."
--'Notes on the Way' Time and Tide
"The claim to equality, outside the strictly political field, is made only by those who feel themselves to be in some way inferior."
--The Screwtape Letters
"They do not get their qualities from a class: they belong to that class because they have those qualities."
--'Delinquents in the Snow' Time and Tide
"He who surrenders himself without reservation to the temporal claims of a nation, or a party, or a class is rendering to Caesar that which, of all things, most emphatically belongs to God: himself..."
--Transposition and Other Addresses
"The true enjoyments must be spontaneous and compulsive and look to no remoter end."
--The World's Last Night
"The moment good taste knows itself, some of its goodness is lost."
--Surprised by Joy
"We have had enough, once and for all, of Hedonism--the gloomy philosophy which says that Pleasure is the only good."
--'Hedonics' Time and Tide
"Many things--such as loving, going to sleep, or behaving unaffectedly--are done worst when we try hardest to do them."
--Studies in Medieval and Renaissance Literature
"Conquest is an evil productive of almost every other evil both to those who commit and to those who suffer it."
--Studies in Medieval and Renaissance Literature
"The universe rings true wherever you fairly test it."
--Surprised by Joy
"Heaven will solve our problems, but not, I think, by showing us subtle reconciliations between all our apparently contradictory notions."
--A Grief Observed
"The notion that everyone would like Christianity to be true, and therefore all atheists are brave men who have accepted the defeat of all their deepest desires, is simply impudent nonsense."
--Encounter With Light
"Now that I am a Christian I do not have moods in which the whole thing looks very improbable: but when I was an atheist I had moods in which Christianity looked terribly probable."
--Mere Christianity
"Looking for God--or Heaven--by exploring space is like reading or seeing all Shakespeare's plays in the hope that you will find Shakespeare as one of the characters..."
--'The Seeing Eye', Christian Reflections (150)
"Books on psychology or economics or politics are as continuously metaphorical as books of poetry or devotion."
--Miracles
"Unless the religious claims of the Bible are again acknowledged, its literary claims will, I think, be given only 'mouth honour' and that decreasingly."
--They Asked for a Paper
"Odd, the way the less the Bible is read the more it is translated."
--Letters (25 May 1962)
"Poetry too is a little incarnation, giving body to what had been before invisible and inaudible."
--Reflections on the Psalms
"For whatever else the religious life may be, it is the fountain of self-knowledge and disillusion, the safest form of psychoanalysis."
--Book Review, Review of English Studies
"The most valuable thing the Psalms do for me is to express the same delight in God which made David dance."
--Reflections on the Psalms
"We may ignore, but we can nowhere evade, the presence of God."
--Letters to Malcolm
"The difference [God's] timelessness makes is that this now (which slips away from you even as you say the word now) is for Him infinite."
--Letters (1 August 1949)
"Perfect goodness can never debate about the end to be attained, and perfect wisdom cannot debate about the means most suited to achieve it."
--The Problem of Pain
"No philosophical theory which I have yet come across is a radical improvement on the words of Genesis, that 'In the beginning God made Heaven and Earth'."
--Miracles
"Though we cannot experience our life as an endless present, we are eternal in God's eyes; that is, in our deepest reality."
--Letters to Malcolm
"Mercy, detached from Justice, grows unmerciful."
--The Humanitarian Theory of Punishment
"Pure, spiritual, intellectual love shot form their faces like barbed lightning. It was so unlike the love we experience that its expression could easily be mistaken for ferocity."
--Perelandra
"God has paid us the intolerable compliment of loving us, in the deepest, most tragic, most inexorable sense."
--The Problem of Pain
"'Yes,' said Queen Lucy. 'In our world too, a Stable once had something inside it that was bigger than our whole world.'"
--The Last Battle
"'How can I step out of [God's] will save into something that cannot be wished?'"
--Perelandra
"'Don't you mind him,' said Puddleglum. 'There are no accidents. Our guide is Aslan.'"
--The Silver Chair
"'Safe?' said Mr. Beaver...'Who said anything about safe? 'Course he isn't safe. but he's good. He's the King, I tell you.'"
--The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe
"'Then instantly the pale brightness of the mist and the fiery brightness of the Lion rolled themselves together into a swirling glory and gathered themselves up and disappeared.'"
--The Horse and His Boy
"Only He who really lived a human life (and I presume that only one did) can fully taste the horror of death."
--Letters (c. September 1940)
"Where, except in uncreated light, can the darkness be drowned?"
--Letters to Malcolm
"'When a willing victim who had committed no treachery was killed in a traitor's stead, the table would crack and Death itself would start working backwards.'"
--The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe
"Some people probably think of the Resurrection as a desperate last moment expedient to save the Hero from a situation which had got out of the Author's control."
--Miracles
"The idea which...shuts out the Second Coming from our minds, the idea of the world slowly ripening to perfection, is a myth, not a generalization from experience."
--The World's Last Night
"To play well the scenes in which we are 'on' concerns us much more than to guess about the scenes that follow it."
--The World's Last Night
"'Something of God...flows into us from the blue of the sky, the taste of honey, the delicious embrace of water whether cold or hot, and even from sleep itself.'"
--'Scraps', St. James' Magazine
"'We do not truly see light, we only see slower things lit by it, so that for us light is on the edge--the last thing we know before things become too swift for us.'"
--Out of the Silent Planet
"These things are not strange, Small One, though they are beyond our senses."
--Out of the Silent Planet
"A creature revolting against a creator is revolting against the source of his own powers--including even his power to revolt...It is like the scent of a flower trying to destroy the flower."
--A Preface to Paradise Lost
"Really, a young Atheist cannot guard his faith too carefully. Dangers lie in wait for him on every side."
--Surprised by Joy
"You must not do, you must not even try to do, the will of the Father unless you are prepared to 'know of the doctrine'."
--Surprised by Joy
"Every sin is the distortion of an energy breathed into us..."
--Letters to Malcolm
"We poison the wine as He decants it into us; murder a melody He would play with us as the instrument...Hence all sin, whatever else it is, is sacrilege."
--Letters to Malcolm
"...of that intimate laughter between fellow professionals, which of all earthly powers is strongest to make men do very bad things before they are yet, individually, very bad men."
--That Hideous Strength
"And then she understood the devilish cunning of the enemies' plan. By mixing a little truth with it they had made their lie far stronger."
--The Last Battle
"To admire Satan [in Paradise Lost] is to give one's vote not only for a world of misery, but also for a world of lies and propaganda, of wishful thinking, of incessant autobiography."
--A Preface to 'Paradise Lost'
"The extremity of its evil had passed beyond all struggle into some state which bore a horrible similarity to innocence."
--Perelandra
"Hatred obscures all distinctions."
--'On Science Fiction', Of Other Worlds
"Sleeping on a dragon's hoard with greedy, dragonish thoughts in his heart, he had become a dragon himself."
--The Voyage of the 'Dawn Treader'
"The gravitation away from God, 'the journey homeward to habitual self', must, we think, be a product of the Fall."
--The Problem of Pain
"All that we call human history--money, poverty, ambition, war, prostitution, classes, empires, slavery--[is] the long terrible story of man trying to find something other than God which will make him happy."
--Mere Christianity
"Every story of conversion is the story of a blessed defeat."
--Foreword to Joy Davidman's Smoke on the Mountain
"The natural life in each of us is something self-centred, something that wants to be petted and admired, to take advantage of other lives, to exploit the whole universe."
--Mere Christianity
"[The natural life] knows that if the spiritual life gets hold of it, all its self-centredness and self-will are going to be killed and it is ready to fight tooth and nail to avoid that."
--Mere Christianity
"This act of self-will on the part of the creature, which constitutes an utter falseness to its true creaturely position, is the only sin that can be conceived as the Fall."
--The Problem of Pain
"The essence of religion, in my view, is the thirst for an end higher than natural ends..."
--A Christian Reply to Professor Price' Phoenix Quarterly
"From the moment a creature becomes aware of God as God and of itself as self, the terrible alternative of choosing God or self for the centre is opened to it."
--The Problem of Pain
"At this very moment you and I are either committing [selfishness], or about to commit it, or repenting it."
--The Problem of Pain
"The dangers of apparent self-sufficiency explain why Our Lord regards the vices of the feckless and dissipated so much more leniently than the vices that lead to worldly success."
--The Problem of Pain
"Prostitutes are in no danger of finding their present life so satisfactory that they cannot turn to God: the proud, the avaricious, the self-righteous, are in that danger."
--The Problem of Pain (200)
"The terrible thing, the almost impossible thing, is the hand over your whole self--all your wishes and precautions--to Christ."
--Mere Christianity
"'Nothing, not even what is lowest and most bestial, will not be raised again if it submits to death.'"
--The Great Divorce
"A blessed spirit is a mould ever more and more patient of the bright metal poured into it, a body ever more completely uncovered to the meridian blaze of the spiritual sun."
--The Problem of Pain
"For in self-giving, if anywhere, we touch a rhythm not only of all creation but of all being."
--The Problem of Pain
"What is outside the system of self-giving is no earth, nor nature, nor 'ordinary life', but simply and solely Hell. Yet even Hell derives from this law such reality as it has."
--The Problem of Pain
"That fierce imprisonment in the self is but the obverse of the self-giving which is absolute reality..."
--The Problem of Pain
"Love is not affectionate feeling, but a steady wish for the loved person's ultimate good as far as it can be obtained."
--Answers to Questions on Christianity
"In the moral sphere, every act of justice or charity involves putting ourselves in the other person's place and thus transcending our own competitive particularity."
--An Experiment in Criticism
"In coming to understand anything we are rejecting the facts as they are for us in favour of the facts as they are."

[NeonVomit]

One might call Hitler and Stalin secularists, but I don't.

They simply 'removed' established religion and created their own, with themselves as gods. Contemporary example: North Korea. Kim Il Sung is treated with the same reverance that Christ or Muhammed is. Kim Jong Il is something akin to the Pope. I find North Korea a particularly fascinating example of men establishing themselves as gods and have researched it in depth and it would be almost comical were it not for the immense human suffering occurring there. There's not even the whole 'back then' excuse, it's happening now, in the 21st century. Easily the weirdest place on earth.

'Religion is the opiate of the masses', and a fantastic way to control populations. Stalin was perfectly aware of this and used it to the full extent. The USSR had its own Holy Trinity of Leader, State and Party. Nazi Germany was almost the same. Mao's Little Red Book was probably meant to be pretty damn similar to the bible or koran.

The similarities between a theocratic state and a 'secular' dictatorship are endless.

[:)]

Oh! I know I know! The reason people hate other people from different religions is because they're human!

[stratoplayer]

Damn the walls of text... I feel crushed!

[miditek]

One might call Hitler and Stalin secularists, but I don't.

We may have to agree to disagree on that particular talking point, although I do understand what you're getting at.

They simply 'removed' established religion and created their own, with themselves as gods.

I've always viewed Communism and Nazism to be a type of political cult (as they had always preached that this supposed God that did not exist was already dead.) The Germans had their Fuhrer and the Russians had their Vozhd ; in fact I tended to agree with Churchill's assessment that apart from a few economic and financial differences, the worst excesses of both systems were virtually indistinguishable from each other. Both systems were also extremely cruel to the Jews, and both systems are (at least in Europe), kaput.

Contemporary example: North Korea. Kim Il Sung is treated with the same reverence that Christ or Muhammad is. Kim Jong Il is something akin to the Pope. I find North Korea a particularly fascinating example of men establishing themselves as gods and have researched it in depth and it would be almost comical were it not for the immense human suffering occurring there. There's not even the whole 'back then' excuse, it's happening now, in the 21st century. Easily the weirdest place on earth.

I still consider NK to be secular, although respect and reverence for the Boss is certainly advisable if one is concerned about his or her's own well-being.

I think that a more illustrative modern example was the Imperial Japanese family, such as Hirohito, was literally worshiped as a god. After the Japanese surrender in 1945, the Emperor, under the direct orders of Supreme Allied Commander (and later, U.S. Military Governor of Japan) General Douglas MacArthur, made a radio broadcast address clearly and plaining stating that he was not a Deity and that it was wrong for anyone to refer to him as such.

'Religion is the opiate of the masses', and a fantastic way to control populations.

The 'opiate' example is probably the most famous of core Marxist theoretical quotes, in addition to the "Workers of the world, unite!" proclamation. However, I can plainly state as a Christian of over thirty four years' experience, 'religion' does not 'control' me. At the core, I'm a stubborn son-of-a-bitch, (wouldn't you agree? I'd bet some real money that Tolkki or Stratohawk would! ), and more of a 'creature of habit' type, as opposed to one of David Koresh's or Muhammed's brainwashed drones.

Faith is a conscientious choice of believing and especially living (that free will and those damned lifestyle choices again!) one's life under the presumption that, through God's grace, the Patient will become a much better person, and that he or she will also be a blessing to those around them. Choosing to not be a Christian is really much easier, and that path certainly has a lot of 'peer pressure' and 'crowd control measures' in and of itself, if you ask me.

Pagans and atheists have certainly always claimed that they are happier than Christians, and lead a more carefree lifestyle. However, I can personally state from personal experience that I've found that the secular lifestyle is truly one of the most dreary and miserably isolated existences that a person could go through. One without God, to lean on, and especially after once a person has actually felt His presence in their lives.

Those are truly the most pitiable types of all; not the atheist nor the agnostic, but the Christian that has fallen out of fellowship with the Almighty. I've been there, and it was a place that I stayed in for (too) many years!

You could almost look at this like you would a simple firewall. There's over 7,000 promises that God offers us (in this lifetime!), and we can compare a few with their associated ports:

Grace -> TCP/80 /inbound
Forgiveness -> TCP/25 /inbound
Love <-> TCP 8080 /inbound, /outbound

and so on. We can choose to block those ports, or we can choose to enable them. The only thing here is that what we are blocking (or enabling/accepting) are not binary threats, but spiritual blessings, and not to mention, salvation.

Stalin was perfectly aware of this and used it to the full extent. The USSR had its own Holy Trinity of Leader, State and Party. Nazi Germany was almost the same. Mao's Little Red Book was probably meant to be pretty damn similar to the bible or koran.

I still think that we're basically comparing apples and oranges here. In Communism and Nazism the State takes precedent over the individual...period. The individual is utterly inconsequential. With Christianity, the individual is indeed, indispensable, and the very reason why God even cares. That's a pretty significant difference.

[NeonVomit]

Oh I'm not saying they're exactly the same, but similarities are undeniable.

[TimoTolkki]

Okay Miditek and BEG, who seems to be the Christians here.
I would be very curious to hear some answers according to your religion:

1 Is the heaven and is there hell? Based on what one goes to which if there is?

2 What is Christianity at the end of the day? Isn´t it divided to many
sections? Doesn´t this mean, that some of them must be false?

3 Is Christianity God´s religion and all the others not?

4 Does Christianity condem homosexuality?

5 Does Christianity accept military actions even if it means that a lot of
innocent civilians could die?

6 Is the Bible the source and guidebook for Christian religion and it is
to be taken literally or to be interpreted?

7 Is there such a thing as Christian Dogma?

[browneyedgirl]

Great post, miditek! *applause*

There are more than just us two who have Christian beliefs----many just have more imprtant things to do than debate religious issues.

Once again, for the 100th time----I am not really a Christian. Christianity is more than just the belief, its a lifestyle, and as of now I am not of the title. But, yes, the basic tenets are what I believe&I grew up raised as Christian believer, so there you go.
BTW, TT, my Mom hates the RCC beliefs as you do, and so does the CoC who dubs the Catholic Church as "the Whore of Babylon".

Besides, miditek is much more articulate and expressive than I to explain all you have asked, Timo.

[JensJohansson]

This link explains who Cain's wife was&where she was from. Of course, I think most people know the simple answer anyway.
http://www.absolutetruth.com/creation/page16.html

I think this link at least explains that the people at absolutetruth.com had a less than absolute sense of when their ISP bill was due??

There is something here from something like "google bible cain wife":

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c004.html

In short, "the unnamed wife was his sister but what were they to do, there were no other humans around?"

Then it goes into genetics.. how Adam and Eve had "perfect genes" [sic]. So incest wouldn't have mattered at this early stage anyways.

Interestingly (even though I disagree sternly I really am trying not to be facetious), later in the article at that link it exlains that there was variations in the human gene pool once the population grew. These "genetic mistakes" were caused by the Curse, which seems to be related to the original sin. The buildup of these "degenerative mistakes" is what made the prohibition against siblings and other close relatives to marry necessary in the first place.

I take it this may not be the official bridging together of genetics and biblical scripture, or that there may not be an official one....

Color me "not convinced" by all that anyway. "Perfect genes"..

[miditek]

Okay Miditek and BEG, who seems to be the Christians here.I would be very curious to hear some answers according to your religion:

1a) Is the heaven and is there hell?

Most Christians would almost certainly answer in the affirmative to both.

1b) Based on what one goes to which if there is?

I think that the following quote sums it up rather simply.

"No one comes before the Father except through Me" John 14:6-9

However, if one is truly curious about God, and therein lies great hope and above all, salvation, with the following words:

"Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me."

(Revelation 3:20)

2a) What is Christianity at the end of the day?

Being a subjective question, I suppose that really depends on whom you ask. For over 2 billion of the world's people, God and Jesus are essentially (or

at the very least, supposed to be) the central part of their very lives, and are the reason why we are here to begin with. Christians also look far beyond the mere flesh that we are wrapped in, and into the very soul itself.

For others, it's merely hocus pocus fairy tales and mythology that can make for great fun and spawned a rather dreadful brand of intellectual parlor games, particularly when made at the expense of unwitting believers and/or seekers.

2b) Isn´t it divided to many sections?

Yes, you are quite correct. As I'm sure that you're well aware, there are many different denominations, which presents a form of 'your mileage may vary', so to speak, but most Christians of all stripes typically agree upon the Holy Trinity, the Birth of the Messiah by the Virgin Mary, and that Christ the Son remains the sole mediator and savior between mankind and God the Father.

Unfortunately, interdenominational strife, such as the Troubles in Northern Ireland, as well as the Lebanese civil war back in the 1970's, have caused a lot of unnecessary and unwanted bloodshed and suffering. Even intradenominational strife has led to lawsuits, criminal indictments, adultery, rape, murder, embezzlement charges, and other horrible things.

These are the types of things that would bring glee to the eyes of characters such as the fictional demonic entity "Screwtape", as well as his nephew "Wormwood." Even though, "Screwtape" would probably be just as would be just as satisfied with vaingloriously self-righteous egotism and whispered curses, as he would with a bomb planted by the IRA or the UDF.

Another annoying characteristic that I've found is that most denominations spend at least some time discussing how everyone else in the "other" denominations are all headed for hell anyway, and are wasting their time at Church (X) or Church (Y).

On a related note, we also realize that Judaism has three major denominations, which includes; the Orthodox Congregation, the Conservative Congregation, as well as the Reform Congregation. There are other smaller groups, such as the Messianics, although their Jewishness is probably a lively topic of debate for the newly recommissioned Sanhedrin Council. Morever, it remains quite certain that the various Muslim sects, such as Sunni, Shia, and Wahabbi, are also well known, even to the secular world.

2c) Doesn´t this mean, that some of them must be false?

Again, a subjective question that could easily return a veritable multitude of potential answers, and each of them could be potentially right, or potentially wrong- and many would look to their priest, pastor, or friendly neighborhood theologian for the "correct" interpretation, rather than getting on their knees and getting to know God a bit better, by spending more time with Him, and less time on which denomination has God's favor over the other. And with that, many parishioners will completely, and not to mention, unfortunately, miss the point.

3a) Is Christianity God´s religion and all the others not?

Religion is merely mankind's interpretation of the Almighty. The Rev. Peter Lord, an evangelist I once heard, had said; "How we live is who we are as Christians; everything else is merely religious jargon.", and it made perfect sense to me. God Himself, being the Supreme Being needs no religion in and of Himself. In fact, religion is probably one of the most abused words in the English language. Christianity does teach though, as I described earlier, that none may come to God, except through the Son.

4) Does Christianity condemn homosexuality?

God condemns homosexuality as "an abomination", but also pretty much classifies it as one of the "sins of the flesh", as it were. Christians are of course, under strict orders from God to avoid not only homosexual activity, but also sexual activity of any form outside of marriage.

5) Does Christianity accept military actions even if it means that a lot of innocent civilians could die?

This is much more of a personal type of belief, and is certainly not monolithic to Christianity itself. One such Christian, let's take Congressional Medal of Honor (our country's highest military award) winner Desmond Doss, who was a medic at Iwo Jima. He was a conscientious objector and refused to carry a weapon- not even a sidearm for personal protection. But he was credited with single handedly saving the lives of over 75 wounded Marines, despite the fact that he himself was wounded several times. After the battle, his superior officers had the troops scour the battlefield and found his blood-soaked Bible. Other Christians have chosen to be combat soldiers, including those that shared PFC Doss's Adventist faith.

No Christian solider would ever want to see innocent people suffer, however, as we all know, that civilians will suffer during war. The Bible describes apocalyptic sequences in which one third of mankind will be wiped out by wars, famine, pestilence, and natural disasters. God Himself is known at times as the "Lord of Hosts", which obviously is a military type of term. Some wars are unavoidable, such as your country's Winter War. I am certain that you've heard of Simo Hayha- the celebrated sniper with 500 confirmed kills, who was feared by the Red Army, and was known as the "White Death". His biography stated that while he was a man of peace for the vast majority of his long life, he could not stand by and watch his people suffer. I am uncertain of his religious affiliation, if any.

6) Is the Bible the source and guidebook for Christian religion and it is to be taken literally or to be interpreted?

Again, this depends upon whom you ask. As an Evangelical Protestant, I personally consider it to be the veritable and literal Word of God, as well as a road map for this life. In turn, I consider this life to be a sort of terrestrial 'boot camp' that prepares us for eternity. Interpretations of this Book vary widely, of course. For instance, a Catholic might think nothing of having a glass or two of wine (or even scotch) after a long day at the office. On the other hand, a Baptist would be horrified at the notion of getting caught with a drink in their hand, or being spotted inside the liquor store by another fellow parishioner.

7) Is there such a thing as Christian Dogma?

Of course! Just ask Ted Turner or any other Big Media operative the next time you're in Atlanta!

[miditek]

Footnote to Tolkki: your questions were interesting, and I just ran across an article by Father Jonathan Morris, and noticed some of his key points also address some of your questions-

Bill Maher's Absurd Take on Religion
foxnews.com/story/0,2933,293366,00.html

Although I do not always agree with everything that the Padre has to say, I have enjoyed reading his columns, and hoped that you might find it to be insightful- from a non-layperson's point of view.