Sarkozy calls French riots "unacceptable"

[miditek]

Sarkozy calls French riots "unacceptable"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071128/ap_ ... e_violence

Looks like the Ahmadinejadjugen are at it once again. I've added a new poll that contains some possible solutions for the French government.

[Shurik]

Arrest and prosecute. Criminals should be behind bars, no matter who they are and where they came from.

[Stealth]

Arrest and prosecute. Criminals should be behind bars, no matter who they are and where they came from.

How would putting Sarkozy behind bars change anything?

[StratoTimo]

They must be nice to everybody... So they won't do anything... except smile

[Carcass]

Shooting at people, be it a police officer or a dustman, is never acceptable. But one has to wonder what the causes for these riots are. That they are black or Mahdijugen (read Muslims, Ahmadinejadjugen is a bit missleading, most muslims living in France are from Algeria, I gather) is not good enough. It will be interesting to see what Sarko will do in his new role as the Head of State. Few years back as Interior Minister he called the rioters 'scum'.

I don't think the French need our help in doing the right thing, they have their own way of dealing with these things and a long tradition of street riots and protests.

...but I'm kind of vacillating between the first and the last option, in case somebody's interested in my opinion.

[Stealth]

I don't think the French need our help in doing the right thing.

I think they do. They have never done the right thing. I have studied in one of my classes the ways in which the French construct French nationalism and it's not pretty. Immigrants are second class citizens. I don't agree with the riots, but I would be lying if I said I didn't see them coming.
Expect more in the near, not-so-near, and/or distant future.

[Carcass]

I was just refering to the handling of the riots, whether to use rubber bullets, live rounds etc...

Immigrants are second class citizens the world over.

[miditek]

How would putting Sarkozy behind bars change anything?

[Stealth]

Again, using rubber bullets, live rounds, etc... not doing the right thing.

I don't think that immigrants are second class citizens everywhere. I'm an immigrant in Canada and I have never been treated like a second class citizen. I feel and I am protected by the Canadian state. I felt protected even before getting my Canadian citizenship. Racism in France is much more explicit and widespread (of course there's racism here too, but nowhere near the same level).

[stratoplayer]

Again, using rubber bullets, live rounds, etc... not doing the right thing.

I don't think that immigrants are second class citizens everywhere. I'm an immigrant in Canada and I have never been treated like a second class citizen. I feel and I am protected by the Canadian state. I felt protected even before getting my Canadian citizenship. Racism in France is much more explicit and widespread (of course there's racism here too, but nowhere near the same level).

Theres racism everywhere and discrimination, it is a basic human impuls to stick with your "equals" or similar people and shun "outsiders". Fact is it won't change, BUT in no way should it be acceptable or encouraged, any favoritism is against human rights and just sleazy behavior.

[Carcass]

I'm an immigrant in Canada and I have never been treated like a second class citizen.

That reminds me of one (very hot ) second generation immigrant who was eager to point out that she's French.

"My parents are from Congo, but I'm French!"

Oh and Sarkozy's father is Hungarian and mother a Greek Jew.

Racism in France is much more explicit

Could you please elaborate a bit?

[miditek]

Arrest and prosecute. Criminals should be behind bars, no matter who they are and where they came from.

Although I voted for "Increase welfare benefits and apologize" strictly as satire, I would probably lean more towards "Arrest and deport", and specifically for those that are not French citizens. My reasoning is that people will do exactly what they think that they can get away with, and in this case, they are doing just that.

I am not sure if you are old enough to remember this, but I can recall seeing apartheid era riots in South Africa on CNN, and it showed the SA army in APC's (Armored Personnel Carriers) just mowing people down with .50 cal machine gun fire. It was just horrible, although it still does not excuse the rioters that were hacking other people to death with machetes and doing the "necklace" thing by placing and then lighting gasoline filled tires around people's necks.

That was an ANC (African National Congress) calling card, and I am pretty sure that Winnie Mandela (Nelson Mandela's former wife) got herself into some legal trouble for instigating violence of that type.

[browneyedgirl]

Whatever happened to good 'ol fashioned&peaceful marching?

The difference in these riots&the riots of 2005 are that in 2005 the rioter vandalized and burned cars and buildings---this time, they injured people! It gets worse every time.
These rioters get pissed off about society or the government, and go wild, venturing into lawlessness. This riot was scarey because they attacked the very people that supposed to protect the inocent public! The police semed to be outweaponed&outmanned.
What happens next? Call in the military?

Oh, I checked a couple newspages&it seems the riots are ebbing to some degree. Maybe the hooligans are geting the rage out of their system. Methinks they should pound a pillow, or go to Primal Scream therapy next time a desire to vandalize&riot hits them.

I say next time they are disgusted with society&government, organize a march&a rally, and leave the malatov cocktails at home.

And, yes, they rioters should be held responsible for their destruction&injuries they inflicted on others. When you play, you have to pay.

[NeonVomit]

Sarkozy calls French riots "unacceptable"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071128/ap_ ... e_violence

Looks like the Ahmadinejadjugen are at it once again. I've added a new poll that contains some possible solutions for the French government.

I fail to see what the Iranian government has to do with this in any way, shape or form.

Anyway. From what I gather the two who were killed were riding a motorbike without a road license, were speeding and were not wearing helmets, the police car they collided with was not persuing them.

Last time around, the two who were killed were hiding in an electricity substation and were electrocuted (do you see a pattern here? Darwin at work, people).

I just do not see how the incident justifies this sort of action on the part of the 'protestors' or whatever. If those two kids had crashed into any other vehicle, none of this would be happening and we'd never know about it. Anyone disagree?

After Carlos Menendes was wrongly, tragically killed by the Metropolitan Police in London in the aftermath of the 7/7 bomb attacks, we didn't see the entire Brazillian community of London take to the streets and burn cars did we? They protested and showed their anger, yes, but in a peaceful and civilised way and in that manner, got a lot of sympathy and understanding for their cause.

But simply arresting and deporting people isn't the solution. It's not a simple problem, so there isn't a simple solution. Many years of cultural misunderstanding have built up to result in such incidents taking place. The LA riots were sparked by a case of a black motorist being beaten by white policemen. In itself, a minor incident. But why did it set off such massive riots? Something to think about, and not entirely dissimilar to the situation Paris faces today.

As for using live ammunition, that would be unacceptable. This isn't Palestine or some sub-Saharan African hellhole. This is Paris we're talking about.

I think Sarkozy will handle this ok. He directly went to the source of the issue, met the parents of the boys who were killed in the accident and ordered a judicial inquiry, in order to prove that there was no 'justification' for this action. By satisfying the relatives of those dead, it takes away much of the pretext for the rioters to carry on. I much prefer his very hands-on approach.

But the underlying issues need to be addressed, and they are not things that can be solved overnight.

[cliff]

I dont understand how could 3 of you have voted "Increase their welfare benefits and apologize", knowing nothing about the situatio in France.
I have lived there for 28 years, in a sort of subborn. I don´t get that.
Someone who dies in a car accident because he was driving too fast and didn´t wear a helmet... now it´s the fault of the other driver? and it lead to riots? Fuck them, if they didn´t want to die, they jsut had to be careful!

As for increase the welfare benefit of those people. That must be a joke, right? Those people have much more money than most of French people who go to work every day (drug traffic and robbery help). They complain that they live in poor places where everything is broken. Well, who breaks those things? in the place where I used to live, we could not even keep a dog park open or a phonebox because they basically destroy everything. And they say that they cannot find a job because they are victim of discrimination ? Bullshit, they dont get any job because they dont look for it! Most of them dont even have any degree or an education, they prefer to be out from school and smoke pots all together.
I am also a second generation immigrant (my parents are italian), so what ? My parents (who were basically really poor, btw) have always taught me that if I wanted to get a job and have a nice life, I had to study. But those people dont give a fucking bullock about studying, and now they just expect the governement to give them a job? Fuck them. besides if they want to get a job, they must learn how to respect people.
THe tendency is that nowdays, they are offered jobs, even if they have no education or diploma. This is sooo great, now go and explain to the people who have studied really hard for many years "sorry we cannot give you this job, because we have to give it to some wankers". positive discrimination my ass.

Those "riots" are just an excuse for them to break everything, hit policemen and steal things from people or shops.

Anyway, why should I care, I don´t live in that stupid country anymore (and I´m glad for it)

[Stealth]

I am also a second generation immigrant (my parents are italian), so what ?

You are not a VISIBLE minority; you are not Arab or Algerian, etc., and you are not Muslim.

Those "riots" are just an excuse for them to break everything, hit policemen and steal things from people or shops.

Wow, now there's an oversimplification. Yeap, people break stuff for the fun of it; there are no social reasons that lead them to do that...
The funny thing is it's only happening in France... I wonder why immigrants in other places don't choose to have as much fun.

Those people have much more money than most of French people who go to work every day (drug traffic and robbery help)

The question is why do they have to resort to drug trafficking and stealing? (And no, they don't do it for the fun of it either).

And they say that they cannot find a job because they are victim of discrimination ? Bullshit, they dont get any job because they dont look for it!

Classic neoliberal interpretation. The poor are poor because they want to. Right...

Most of them dont even have any degree or an education

Maybe we should examine the issue of access to the educational system in more detail. And saying that university is free doesn't mean that everyone can attend if they wish so.

those people dont give a fucking bullock about studying

Not everyone wants to study. Some people might not like studying and they would prefer to work instead. What's wrong with that?

if they want to get a job, they must learn how to respect people

I'm not even going to mention the irony or the contradiction... Oh hell, I already did.

Sarkozy has a non-French background. That's very nice, but how many blacks are there in France? Just look at the soccer team, most of the players come from the colonies. There are LOTS of blacks in France. How many have ever made it to the government?

cliff, your post is pure Sarkozian politics at its best (which might be a good thing or a bad thing depending on where you stand in the political spectrum).

@ Carcass: I guess what I meant is that racism in France is more active (for example, Sarkozy calling the people from the suburbs "scum" is pretty active discrimination). Here in Canada, racism is more passive. In general, people here don't have any problems with immigrants (I said IN GENERAL), but at the same time, there's a lot of indifference and apathy, which is a more subtle form of discrimination. They will not tell you that you are scum (and they don't think so either) but sometimes people are indifferent and don't interact much with each other.

EDIT: I still want to make clear that I don't agree with the riots. I do think that there are serious social problems related to inclusion in France, but I don't think that rioting is the best way of dealing with them. If immigrants want change, they should resort to diplomacy.

[black death]

Those "riots" are just an excuse for them to break everything, hit policemen and steal things from people or shops.

Wow, now there's an oversimplification. Yeap, people break stuff for the fun of it; there are no social reasons that lead them to do that...
The funny thing is it's only happening in France... I wonder why immigrants in other places don't choose to have as much fun.

And they say that they cannot find a job because they are victim of discrimination ? Bullshit, they dont get any job because they dont look for it!

Classic neoliberal interpretation. The poor are poor because they want to. Right...

Have you ever lived in France for some longer time?? Or at a place where the similar problems are?
I don't think whoever of us can judge something what he/she doesn't know, what he/she can't see every day around himself/herself.
I know what Cliff is speaking about. We have here similar problems with gypsies, although it's not so "visible" internationally. They are complaining about everything (in how poor conditions they must live, how they can't do this and that, how they are discriminated etc.) and just make use of our generous social system. And then you see those poor guys...



...and think "Oh shit, they're soooo poor!"
But those are the same people who draw the support from state, who don't have a job 'cause they do NOT look for it, who live in terrible houses because THEY destroyed it (don't ask me how or why, I don't know ) etc.

Here in Canada, racism is more passive. In general, people here don't have any problems with immigrants (I said IN GENERAL), but at the same time, there's a lot of indifference and apathy...

This is the key issue...you don't have any problems with immigrants (in general)...if you had (in general), you would be speaking differently

I'm not a racist, but when you see that 90 % of some group of people is acting in the same way (bad or good, that's not important), you just can't pretend that it's not happening

[Carcass]

Jesus, man....

[stratohawk]

Always these polarizing topics and debates... Just like the "options" of that poll - only black and white, good and bad, hardliner or wimp. That's a much too simple way to generalize and categorize the world, its people, cultures and societies.

[StratoTimo]

Kikkelis kokkelis, sulla on mun luonto!


France = terrible cars...!
France = terrible leadership!

[miditek]

I dont understand how could 3 of you have voted "Increase their welfare benefits and apologize", knowing nothing about the situation in France.

As for increase the welfare benefit of those people. That must be a joke, right?

Sorry, Cliff. I wanted to say this a bit sooner, but have been tied up working. The "Increase welfare benefits and apologize" option was indeed a joke, and was solely intended as satire. In reality, I would probably lean more towards "Arrest & Deport" any immigrants, legal or otherwise, that riot and cause trouble, and then "Use Live Ammunition" on any of them that are in the streets and armed with firearms, with particular emphasis on the ones that were firing at the police. No one should tolerate that type of behavior anywhere, regardless of what country it is, but just my $0.02 cents though.

Those "riots" are just an excuse for them to break everything, hit policemen and steal things from people or shops.

With that, I can completely agree. The same things have happened here in the US as well, in places such as Los Angeles, Newark, and New Orleans, among other cities.

Anyway, why should I care, I don´t live in that stupid country anymore (and I´m glad for it)

I am almost envious of the folks that live in Finland, except during the dead of wintertime, of course.

[stratoplayer]

Kikkelis kokkelis, sulla on mun luonto!


France = terrible cars...!
France = terrible leadership!

Come on now, I`m perfectly happy with my Renaul Clio... It may not be THE shit but it isn't shit either.

[NeonVomit]

And I sometimes drive a Renault Senic to transport stuff... it's just fine!

[cliff]

You are not a VISIBLE minority; you are not Arab or Algerian, etc., and you are not Muslim.

So in your opinion, a "visible" minority means being Arab or musulm only?
What about asiatic people, for ex? Shouldn´t they be considered as a "visible minority" as well? However, medias do exactly the same than you did, consider that only the muslims can be considered as "visible minority"... just like "youngsters" is a shortcut for "badboys who break everything" to them.
Also, I might not be an Arab, but still, I look South Italian... not really the French type, if I might say,

cliff, your post is pure Sarkozian politics at its best (which might be a good thing or a bad thing depending on where you stand in the political spectrum)

Well, you´re wrong... I hate Sarkozy big time!!!

@ Carcass: I guess what I meant is that racism in France is more active (for example, Sarkozy calling the people from the suburbs "scum" is pretty active discrimination)

Wrong, wrong and again wrong!
Go to Scandinavia for ex. If you are black, people stares at you. In Russia some fuckers could come and hit you. France is one of the most cosmopolitan country in the world.

You all have an opinion about the situation in France from what you heard or read about it. Come to live in France for at least 2 wees, then you´ll know. I have been living there for 28 years, so... I think I know.

[Carcass]

Go to Scandinavia for ex. If you are black, people stares at you.

No they don't, at least not more than anywhere else in Europe (I'm showing great effort of will by not pointing out that you should go and live in Scandinavia before throwing such comments at this board).

According to one survey published not too long ago Sweden of all countries in Europe scored best in making immigrants feel at home.

By the way, Finland is not in Scandinavia if that's what you imagined. But our immigration policy is quite appaling, I give you that. Just yesterday one woman got deported to Rwanda, when it was perfectly clear that her future there will not be very bright. She tried to commit suicide by swallowing all the pills she could find when it became clear that the police is going to catch her. There was recently a similar case with an Iranian woman here in my town, she was sheltered and hidden by the church. For once I can say that I'm proud of being a member of our state church... yeah, that's right, I'm still a member of the lutheran church. Why? I don't really know...

EDIT: I did some editing.

[browneyedgirl]

The rioters would probably be very happy if Chavez was the Prez of France. Chavez is called the Champion of the Poor in Venezuela, and is revered as God to some folks.
If they could tolerate his smartass mouth, I guess!

[stratoplayer]

The rioters would probably be very happy if Chavez was the Prez of France. Chavez is called the Champion of the Poor in Venezuela, and is revered as God to some folks.
If they could tolerate his smartass mouth, I guess!

The spanish king became my hero when he said "¿Por qué no te callas Chávez?", made me proud of being a spanish citizen

[Carcass]

That surely was a funny incident, I couldn't believe my eyes when I first read about it.

But you have to bear in mind that the word 'fascist' has a very strong undertone in Spain, considering the civil war and the dictatorship that followed it. The civil war of the '30s is still a very hot and emotional topic.

EDIT: Juan Carlos is an old git (like all the monarchs).