At last..IDF finally responds

[JensJohansson]

I am so banned.

I suppose you can get a pass for being drunk and somewhat remorseful even in that state

Hey, Miditek ain't no Nazi. He might be a bit to the right of Genghis Khan politically, but he ain't no Nazi.

Why don't they make computers and phones with alco-locks, like the cars the courts issue drunks!? I'd pay for that.

[NeverendingAbyss]

I am so banned.

I suppose you can get a pass for being drunk and somewhat remorseful even in that state

Hey, Miditek ain't no Nazi. He might be a bit to the right of Genghis Khan politically, but he ain't no Nazi.

Why don't they make computers and phones with alco-locks, like the cars the courts issue drunks!? I'd pay for that.

One of my dad's "friends" has a device in his car that checks for his alcohol level in his blood. He MUST do that every time because he was drunk and caught so many times by the police. That information is sent to some kind of facility to see if he is drunk or not. Sucks, eh?

[JensJohansson]

If I remember correctly, Sweden wasn't part of any major military campain since something like 18th century. I guess getting your asses kicked by Peter The Great was enough BTW, until today one of the sayings in Russian that are used to describe an extremely heavy defeat is "was beaten like Swedes near Poltava".

Well you say "beaten", I say "the idiot king thankfully was corrected out of a dangerous delusion". I mean, a Swedish empire stretching to the Ukraine!? You'd think they would be able to just look at a map.. the whole idea is pretty retarded. Sweden doesn't even have any natural gas to throttle to try to control any uppity ex-provinces... what were we gonna say, "obey or we will throttle your supply of Ikea furniture"?

As he left Poltava, Karl XIIdiot supposedly muttered, "bah, leave these russians to themselves, in 250 years they will totally wreck the place and kill millions of their own like flies"..

Anyway, as history would have it, Karl, of course, was shot with a coat button a bit later, in the middle of yet another idiotic war of his. Legend has it the button came from a Swedish rifle. I believe it, someone probably had enough.

History lesson number 1: The last truly sovereign state within the current borders of Israel (more or less) that lasted more than a few years was a Hasmonean kingdom which was a result of a Maccabean rebellion against the Greeks in 165BC. Then Romans conquered it, than there was a Jewish revolt of 66-73 AD which resulted in burning of the second temple, than there were couple more revolts, than Byzantines got this land, then it fell to Sassanids (pre-islamic Iran), then to muslim Arabs during the initial islamic conquests, then crusaders, then muslims again, then there was a British mandate and then came the UN resolution which created 2 states - a Jewish one and an Arab one. Jews took the UN offer, Arabs didn't, and that's really not our problem.

I think this post pretty much sums it up....

Then there are some quibbles about this "offer". 1948 borders, or 1967? Who is to blame? Who is to suffer?

Hopefully in a few hundred years this all will be as irrelevant as where the Danish/Swedish border is today (pretty irrelevant) as compared to the mid 17th century (matter of stupid and bitter territorial wars.)

[icecab21]

I wonder why the people that write these "myth and fact" pieces don't bother to source information or report within any academic or journalistic standard?

[browneyedgirl]

I wonder why the people that write these "myth and fact" pieces don't bother to source information or report within any academic or journalistic standard?

The source for the article was right there on the page. It was written by Mitchell Bard.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... lktoc.html

Another good, informative article written by LAWYER Alan Dershowitz:
http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/middle ... rategy.asp

basicly asks the question of "where were all those loving protestors when all the Jewish kids were getting killed over the years?"

Well, maybe next time I'll get an article from one of those Palestine-biased leftist conspiracy theory sites which calls for the destruction of Israel, proscecution of Israel for war crimes, and which shows USA protestors in PLO garb, etc... etc.
I BET I won't get a single complaint, or asked for any "source" whatsoever.
And most of those folks who write for the conspiracy theory sites have no academic or journalistic credentials to speak of at all.

[icecab21]

I don't think this is a political issue where one side gets questioned and the other gets the benefit of the doubt. Every side has has their "myth and fact" pages.

[browneyedgirl]

Rockets fall in Israel after cease-fire declared - http://news.mobile.msn.com/en-us/articl ... d=28651944

Hamas is still firing rockets at Israel.

[miditek]

I am so banned.

I suppose you can get a pass for being drunk and somewhat remorseful even in that state

Hey, Miditek ain't no Nazi. He might be a bit to the right of Genghis Khan politically, but he ain't no Nazi.

Why don't they make computers and phones with alco-locks, like the cars the courts issue drunks!? I'd pay for that.

Yes! The Interlock(TM) device,it's a rather handy system that helps to keep pickled people off the road.

I did read recently that there is an Idiotlock (patent pending) device in the works, which is being sponsored by DAMM (Drunks Againt Mad Mothers) which kills the car's ignition whenever a cellular signal is detected in the interior of the car, with the goal of keeping the equally dangerous MADD (Mothers Against Drunk Drivers) chatterboxes off the road as well.

It seems that I also read about "Bhuddalock", a device that you must piss into and test negative for THC before the car will start, some time ago in Popular Mechanics.

;lol:

@beg- I wouldn't be too suprised that Hamas is still firing rockets- other than parading around infant corpses on al-Jazeera and CNN, it seems to be their favorite sport. There is a simple fix for that though- Gaza is rather small, have you ever heard of 'Puff the Magic Dragon'- aka the Spectre AC-130 gunship used by our Special Forces? That is one weapon system that I can guarantee would strike fear into the heart of any JihadisÞ and would literally riddle their launch sites with ordanance.

Now playing: Taco Flavored Kisses- by: Eric Cartman and Jennifer Lopez

[Bathory Killcraft]

@beg- I wouldn't be too suprised that Hamas is still firing rockets- other than parading around infant corpses on al-Jazeera and CNN, it seems to be their favorite sport. There is a simple fix for that though- Gaza is rather small, have you ever heard of 'Puff the Magic Dragon'- aka the Spectre AC-130 gunship used by our Special Forces? That is one weapon system that I can guarantee would strike fear into the heart of any Jihadist and would literally riddle their launch sites with ordanance.

Now playing: Taco Flavored Kisses- by: Eric Cartman and Jennifer Lopez

Now playing: Magic Dragon- by: Sodom - Agent Orange album.

[Bathory Killcraft]

Let us illustrate the Magic Dragon concept too...




And listen to the album too...it shreds.

[NeonVomit]

Wow, ok I re-read what I posted on Friday night... anyway! Sorry if I offended anyone.

Here's what I really think.

Masterfully played by Hamas. As inept as they have been in the actual war itself, they have been in complete control of the story of this war from day one, even though they were just as outgunned by the Israeli media machine as they were by the military one.

Israel's big mistake was not letting reporters in to Gaza, which they did for obvious reasons, and it probably seemed like a great idea at the time, but with most of the independent Palestinian reporters in Gaza being somewhere between sympathetic with Hamas(and why wouldn't they be, they live there), or in some cases actual members of Hamas, the spin on this entire conflict was carried out with supreme coordination. I'm not saying they made things up, (though that probably happened sometimes as well), they didn't have to, there were obviously tragic, terrible, real things going on in Gaza continuously for the last tree weeks. They just chose what to focus on like any reporter does. Depending on whose figures you believe civilian casualties were between 25%-50% That means, by their own admission, 600-800 Hamas fighters were killed in this war.

Have you ever seen one on TV? Either wounded or dead? Or even alive shooting at drones or choppers? I haven't, and Ive watched a lot of coverage. I haven't even seen a picture of one. Nothing but screaming kids with their legs blown off, teenagers with WP burns, burning UN buildings, dead babies and wailing mothers. If you didn't know that there was an actual war going on with people shooting at each other off camera, you would have thought from watching TV that Israel does nothing but fire artillery at hospitals, shoot kids, bomb homes, and drop WP on schools. Which was the whole point. I mean they did do all those things, but they also were killing Hamas at the same time. Somewhere.

Meanwhile the foreign press, who were getting more and more steamed about being kept out of the action and away from the story got tired of covering Jewish moms crying about how they have to run to the bomb shelter every fifteen minutes, or get shampoo in their eyes while running out of the shower because the air raid siren went off. So they went off script and started running stories like that one about the hill where all the Israeli spectators were sunbathing, eating sandwiches and watching Gaza get bombed. Or even worse sympathy pieces about the war they could hear going on just over the fence.

Add it all together and you have Israel taking their worst global PR beating since 82. Probably the worst ever honestly. This last piece though really tops it off. Olmert thought he was smart by setting up that unilateral ceasefire without even talking to Hamas. Saying that as long as Hamas didn't fire any more rockets then the offensive was over. Meanwhile he leaves the entire IDF parked in Northern Gaza, so not only do the Palestinians have all the same reasons from before to fire rockets, now they also have an army sitting inside their territory! And when they do fire rockets, Olmert can say that "these maniacs don't even want a cease fire!". I thought they fell for it too, they said they were going to continue attacks and they did, firing 4 rockets into Israel right after the ceasefire started.

Then about three hours later someone got all of Hamas together, along with Islamic Jihad who hate Hamas, and got them all to agree to stop firing rockets for a week as long as Israel pulls the army out of Gaza before those seven days are up. Now if Olmert does pull out, he looks like a pussy who agreed to a terrorist deadline just before he needs people to vote for him, if he doesn't then he looks like a total fucking warmonger after the people he has spent the last three weeks calling bloodthirsty maniacs completely stopped attacking and gave him a week to leave their territory.

There are definitely some smart people on the Palestinian side this time around who understand, more than ever, that their most powerful weapon is world opinion.

[Shurik]

Add it all together and you have Israel taking their worst global PR beating since 82. Probably the worst ever honestly. This last piece though really tops it off. Olmert thought he was smart by setting up that unilateral ceasefire without even talking to Hamas. Saying that as long as Hamas didn't fire any more rockets then the offensive was over. Meanwhile he leaves the entire IDF parked in Northern Gaza, so not only do the Palestinians have all the same reasons from before to fire rockets, now they also have an army sitting inside their territory! And when they do fire rockets, Olmert can say that "these maniacs don't even want a cease fire!". I thought they fell for it too, they said they were going to continue attacks and they did, firing 4 rockets into Israel right after the ceasefire started.

Then about three hours later someone got all of Hamas together, along with Islamic Jihad who hate Hamas, and got them all to agree to stop firing rockets for a week as long as Israel pulls the army out of Gaza before those seven days are up. Now if Olmert does pull out, he looks like a pussy who agreed to a terrorist deadline just before he needs people to vote for him, if he doesn't then he looks like a total fucking warmonger after the people he has spent the last three weeks calling bloodthirsty maniacs completely stopped attacking and gave him a week to leave their territory.

There are definitely some smart people on the Palestinian side this time around who understand, more than ever, that their most powerful weapon is world opinion.

Yeah, our biggest problem is Olmert and his gang of corrupt morrons. Thankfully, in 3 weeks he will be gone and hopefully we will have a sane and competent right-wing government headed by Binyamin Netaniyahu, and that Kadima abomination will be gone.

I honestly didn't think that this operation, while executed brilliantly from military point of view, will be lost from political point of view.

But this kind of press coverage and stories about "massacres" are not uncommon - in 2002, when IDF went on similar operation in West Bank after months of almost daily suicide bombings, there was a story about a "massacre" in Jenin. Palestinians claimed that IDF purposely killed 500 or so civilians and dumped them in mass graves, the story got into almost every news agency in the world. Later it was proven that the number of victims in Jenin was about 50, most of the terrorists, no mass graves ... But the damage was done. Same thing was with Sabra and Shatila in 1982, when christian phalangists massacred palestinians and IDF was blamed, the accusations sounded like Ariel Sharon personally killed all those 800+ people.
So yeah, Palestinians are good at manipulating the world's media. That and antisemitism make Israeli propaganda efforts useless by definition.

[NeverendingAbyss]

[NeonVomit]

Yeah, our biggest problem is Olmert and his gang of corrupt morrons. Thankfully, in 3 weeks he will be gone and hopefully we will have a sane and competent right-wing government headed by Binyamin Netaniyahu, and that Kadima abomination will be gone.

I don't think the words 'sane' and 'Netaniyahu' belong in the same sentence, but anyway. I heard him being interviewed recently and I think he's lost it even more since the '90s.

I honestly didn't think that this operation, while executed brilliantly from military point of view, will be lost from political point of view.

My main point was that no foreign journalists were allowed into Gaza... that really just pissed off the news organisations. A very badly calculated move and as I pointed out, meant that just whoever was on the ground in Gaza would be able to tell the stories, and not reporters from [insert name here].

So yeah, Palestinians are good at manipulating the world's media. That and antisemitism make Israeli propaganda efforts useless by definition.

Despite what you may think, most people (in Western countries, anyway) had given up being antisemetic towards Jews about two generations back. They have foreign immigrants to focus those sorts of feelings on now. So there really isn't as much of that as you might believe.

Israel is a democracy and has freedom of the press. They should not have barred reporters from Gaza.

And if anyone honestly believed that the world press would look favourably to Israel attacking Gaza, they were mistaken. Not the whole 'oh poor us' routine that we're all sick of hearing from both sides, but come on... UN buildings and schools being bombed will never look or sound good, and nobody cares if Hamas was supposedly firing from them, who will believe that? Were there any independant journalists on the ground to verify it? Nope...

[Shurik]

I don't think the words 'sane' and 'Netaniyahu' belong in the same sentence, but anyway. I heard him being interviewed recently and I think he's lost it even more since the '90s.

Well, he's the best we currently have. The alternative is Tzipi Livni (same useless Kadima shit, like Olmert) or Ehud Barak (the one who is directly responsible for second intifadah and the war in 2006). I prefer Netaniyahu over any alternative from the left, or the left in general.

My main point was that no foreign journalists were allowed into Gaza...

But why should they be allowed into the war zone? So that they'll get killed and it'll be another reason to blame Israel?

Despite what you may think, most people (in Western countries, anyway) had given up being antisemetic towards Jews about two generations back. They have foreign immigrants to focus those sorts of feelings on now. So there really isn't as much of that as you might believe.

So whose idea is to burn synagogues and shops owned by Jews or to attack Jews in reaction to the operation in Gaza? There were quite a few such a reports in local media. I guess most of those attacks were carried out by muslim immigrants, but still, it is seen here as an antisemitic attack.

UN buildings and schools being bombed will never look or sound good, and nobody cares if Hamas was supposedly firing from them, who will believe that? Were there any independant journalists on the ground to verify it?

Schools and kindergardens were hit in Beer Sheva, Ashdod, Ashkelon, Sderot etc too, and no one was firing from them - so why hitting a school in Gaza should look worse than purposely hitting school in Beer Sheva?

And there's no such a thing as independent journalist, at least not in this conflict.

[NeonVomit]

My main point was that no foreign journalists were allowed into Gaza...

But why should they be allowed into the war zone? So that they'll get killed and it'll be another reason to blame Israel?

Journalists go into war zones fully aware of the risks that await them. It obviously did no favours to block them in this instance, especially by a country which (I'm pretty sure) the freedom of the press is protected by law.

Despite what you may think, most people (in Western countries, anyway) had given up being antisemetic towards Jews about two generations back. They have foreign immigrants to focus those sorts of feelings on now. So there really isn't as much of that as you might believe.

So whose idea is to burn synagogues and shops owned by Jews or to attack Jews in reaction to the operation in Gaza? There were quite a few such a reports in local media. I guess most of those attacks were carried out by muslim immigrants, but still, it is seen here as an antisemitic attack.

There wasn't any of that here, or in Cyprus or Greece. Perhaps this did happen but I didn't hear about it and yes, it sounds like the kind of thing immigrants would be more likely to do than the locals of EU member states.

UN buildings and schools being bombed will never look or sound good, and nobody cares if Hamas was supposedly firing from them, who will believe that? Were there any independant journalists on the ground to verify it?

Schools and kindergardens were hit in Beer Sheva, Ashdod, Ashkelon, Sderot etc too, and no one was firing from them - so why hitting a school in Gaza should look worse than purposely hitting school in Beer Sheva?

And there's no such a thing as independent journalist, at least not in this conflict.

I don't think Hamas could purposefully hit anything - from what I gather, they just point their rockets in a general direction and fire.

And the fact of the matter remains, 1,300 Palestinians were killed in this conflict, and 13 Israelis. What is there going to be more of to report?

[Shurik]

I don't think Hamas could purposefully hit anything - from what I gather, they just point their rockets in a general direction and fire.

Yeah, they can't target anything, but they throw the rockets in the general direction of Israeli cities, with full intention to hit something civilian. Sadly, sometimes they succeed.

[NeonVomit]

I don't think Hamas could purposefully hit anything - from what I gather, they just point their rockets in a general direction and fire.

Yeah, they can't target anything, but they throw the rockets in the general direction of Israeli cities, with full intention to hit something civilian. Sadly, sometimes they succeed.

...whereas the world sees Israel purposefully targetting UN buildings and schools. Do you understand what I'm getting at here?

[miditek]

I don't think Hamas could purposefully hit anything - from what I gather, they just point their rockets in a general direction and fire.

Yeah, they can't target anything, but they throw the rockets in the general direction of Israeli cities, with full intention to hit something civilian. Sadly, sometimes they succeed.

...whereas the world sees Israel purposefully targetting UN buildings and schools. Do you understand what I'm getting at here?

A Time magazine cover that, other than Jens, Beg, and myself, is older than anyone else here in this forum.

Amazing how the media stupidly fawned over terrorists even almost forty years ago- this cover is from 1970.

[Neorave]

I don't think Hamas could purposefully hit anything - from what I gather, they just point their rockets in a general direction and fire.

Yeah, they can't target anything, but they throw the rockets in the general direction of Israeli cities, with full intention to hit something civilian. Sadly, sometimes they succeed.

...whereas the world sees Israel purposefully targetting UN buildings and schools. Do you understand what I'm getting at here?

A Time magazine cover that, other than Jens, Beg, and myself, is older than anyone else here in this forum.

Amazing how the media stupidly fawned over terrorists even almost forty years ago- this cover is from 1970.

Not surprising. I remember watching a old news film in my history class when the media talked about the children in Vietnam and how they were brain-washing them into killing Americans.

[icecab21]

So are these people terrorists to you before they attack civilians? Are they guilty as individuals or a collective to you? Do you see these actions as natural to their ethnic group or victims of culture and the environment of the way they have been raised?

[Bathory Killcraft]

Amazing how the media stupidly fawned over terrorists even almost forty years ago- this cover is from 1970.

Well back then they were not "terrorists" or "collective enemies of the West." They were "freedom fighters" struggling against x, y, z "brutally oppressing" or "foreign" regimes for a "just" cause. Where "foreign" = "against American interests" btw.

I am not talking Palestinians specifically. I am talking every single militant, revolutionary movement or regime the West and more specifically the US mindlessly supported, trained and financed throughout the years. Iran, Saddam, Osama, etc comes readily in mind...

[browneyedgirl]

I don't think Hamas could purposefully hit anything - from what I gather, they just point their rockets in a general direction and fire.

Yeah, they can't target anything, but they throw the rockets in the general direction of Israeli cities, with full intention to hit something civilian. Sadly, sometimes they succeed.

...whereas the world sees Israel purposefully targetting UN buildings and schools. Do you understand what I'm getting at here?

A Time magazine cover that, other than Jens, Beg, and myself, is older than anyone else here in this forum.

Amazing how the media stupidly fawned over terrorists even almost forty years ago- this cover is from 1970.

Not surprising. I remember watching a old news film in my history class when the media talked about the children in Vietnam and how they were brain-washing them into killing Americans.

Yeah, talk to many, many Vietnam War vets from USA, and they will tell you they had to fear the women and children as much as the Vietnamese soldiers! The "civilians" were trained to fight the USA just as viciously as the soldiers.
I'm sorry if the realities of life offend you, but that is not a fairytale, its how it was!

[Bathory Killcraft]

Yeah, talk to many, many Vietnam War vets from USA, and they will tell you they had to fear the women and children as much as the Vietnamese soldiers! The "civilians" were trained to fight the USA just as viciously as the soldiers.

What did you expect them to do, spread palm branches before them and give them candies?

sorry if the realities of life offend you, but that is not a fairytale, its how it was!

Oh these realities of life...

[browneyedgirl]

I don't think Hamas could purposefully hit anything - from what I gather, they just point their rockets in a general direction and fire.

Yeah, they can't target anything, but they throw the rockets in the general direction of Israeli cities, with full intention to hit something civilian. Sadly, sometimes they succeed.

...whereas the world sees Israel purposefully targetting UN buildings and schools. Do you understand what I'm getting at here?

A Time magazine cover that, other than Jens, Beg, and myself, is older than anyone else here in this forum.

Amazing how the media stupidly fawned over terrorists even almost forty years ago- this cover is from 1970.

I don't think its so bad when the media does this, after all we can ignore it/turn it off. But, when the populace starts fawning over terrorists, sympathizing with them, and more or less taking their side in squirmishes, all of us are in deep trouble.

Yeah, talk to many, many Vietnam War vets from USA, and they will tell you they had to fear the women and children as much as the Vietnamese soldiers! The "civilians" were trained to fight the USA just as viciously as the soldiers.

What did you expect them to do, spread palm branches before them and give them candies?

Some of the Vietnamese women did give the GIs sex, then murdered or injured them in horrible ways afterward. Great meet&greet, wouldn't you say?

Oh, I see.......its OK for some countries to defend themselves as long as its not the Jews or Israelis defending themselves! I see......

[Bathory Killcraft]

Some of the Vietnamese women did give the GIs sex, then murdered or injured them in horrible ways afterward. Great meet&greet, wouldn't you say?

Are you talking North Vietnamese? You know, those weird fuzzy people you were in war with?

Civilians fought the German forces throughout WWII and it was called resistance against an invading and occupying force. OK, you are not allowed to do that against GI Joe's I guess...

Btw, you killed them without even giving them sex...that's worse.

, I see.......its OK for some countries to defend themselves as long as its not the Jews or Israelis defending themselves! I see......

Defending themselves? You have rocks, molotov cocktails and hand made rockets against nuclear arsenal here. Probably the first time in history the defending party inflicts hundred times more casualties than the attacking...I am tempted to use a smilie here but it isn't even funny...

By the way why is that the IDF is suddenly packing it up from Gaza? Did they achieve their "military aims" now?

I am sure they miss Bush Jr already...

[stratoplayer]

By the way why is that the IDF is suddenly packing it up from Gaza? Did they achieve their "military aims" now?

I am sure they miss Bush Jr already...

More like the Defense Minister got the attention he wanted for the coming elections... I seriously doubt they killed anyone with the equivalent rank of a captain.

[Bathory Killcraft]

International Zionism is taking over this forum... My Magic Dragon image is gone!

OK OK, I 'll link to a smaller image you fuzzy monkeys...

Btw, while googling Agent Orange I stumbled upon images of victims (all of them Vietnamese of course) of this noble dioxine. Pretty sick to use this as a weapon for a supposedly civilised nation. But then, again what would you expect from the country that dropped the bomb...

[browneyedgirl]

Obama is not going to totally turn his back on Israel if thats what Palestine/Hamas-lovers are hoping.

What suprised alot of people is that they thought Bush would bomb Iran before he left office.

Now people don't have Bush to kick around any more, and hopefully all that badmouthing shit is over. Even people who did not like Bush were getting bored with that nonsense.

[Bathory Killcraft]

Obama is not going to totally turn his back on Israel if thats what Palestine/Hamas-lovers are hoping.

Of course not. I doubt anyone expects a big change in Middle East policy. Maybe Israel so they rushed into having this done before his swearing-in.

What suprised alot of people is that they thought Bush would bomb Iran before he left office.

And what would be the excuse?

Now people don't have Bush to kick around any more, and hopefully all that badmouthing shit is over. Even people who did not like Bush were getting bored with that nonsense.

He didn't get anything he did not deserve...