The Zeitgeist Movement

[Ultimo Mordecai]

I was just wondering if there are any other stratofans who happen to be fellow zeitgeisters (zeitgeisters? lol i dunno) everyone in the local chapter is into the more hipster-indy rock type stuff...

Out of curiosity, does anyone know if the members of Stratovarius are aware of the Zeitgeist movies or the movement? Considering some of their lyrics (especially on the last album) it seems like something they would be into.

Also, I guess this can just be a general discussion about the movement, questions, debates, etc, but let's keep it friendly

[robocop656]

Abandon all your conspiracy theories for The Scientific Method.

[browneyedgirl]

Everyone knows that 2012 is gonna be the end of the world as we know it. Why do you think there has been so many tornadoes this month. And such a cold, cold Winter. The poles are shifting, man. The axis of the Earth is about to be knocked askew. We are slowly turning into a tropical greenhouse as we speak. 2012. Watch for it.

[robocop656]

Get out of here with your pseudo-Science. If you actually took a Science class in High School, you'd realize how much of a lie all your worries are.

[TwilightEagle]

Everyone knows that 2012 is gonna be the end of the world as we know it. Why do you think there has been so many tornadoes this month. And such a cold, cold Winter. The poles are shifting, man. The axis of the Earth is about to be knocked askew. We are slowly turning into a tropical greenhouse as we speak. 2012. Watch for it.

Hope you're joking. In the Maya calendar the world won't end in 2012, but the new chronology will begin. The sensation seeking media is spreading that "we're all gonna die in 2012" message. Do you guys and girls remember the Y2K thing?

[Shurik]

Are you talking about this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Zeitgeist_Movement

From the descriptions there it sounds like a complete nonsense.

[adrian9]

Everyone knows that 2012 is gonna be the end of the world as we know it. Why do you think there has been so many tornadoes this month. And such a cold, cold Winter. The poles are shifting, man. The axis of the Earth is about to be knocked askew. We are slowly turning into a tropical greenhouse as we speak. 2012. Watch for it.

Hope you're joking. In the Maya calendar the world won't end in 2012, but the new chronology will begin. The sensation seeking media is spreading that "we're all gonna die in 2012" message. Do you guys and girls remember the Y2K thing?

that was different because Y2k was supposed to affect computers, and certainly did but not in a large scale. and did not affect many peoples life.
this whoever scares the shit out of me, because there are more and more natural disasters going on as we approach 2012, i guess we all gonna have to move to africa.

[mayhem-for-all]

Well in times like this its great to live in Finland.
No risk of tornadoes, earthquakes, volcano eruptions, tsunamis, rock slides or avalanches

[Ultimo Mordecai]

Are you talking about this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Zeitgeist_Movement

From the descriptions there it sounds like a complete nonsense.

Unfortunately yeah, the wiki page does a crap job explaining it.

The basic idea is that the current social and economic set up of our global society is primitive and damaging, and the movement advocates a ground up restructuring of the entire global society based on the scientific method (ie make society rationally, rather than based on a patchwork of ideologies and religions)

The primary goal, rather than maximizing GDP or conquering lands, would be to ensure the survival, health, and happiness of everyone on earth FIRST, then everything else second. Since this system would have no money, such a thing would actually be possible.

Obviously this is just a quick little explanation that will probably raise more questions than answer them, but that's the idea! (QUESTIONS RULE!)

As for all the 2012 talk, I'll just put an end to that right now:
They say on Dec 21, 2012, the earth will align with the center of the galaxy or something like that, and this great astronomical event is supposed to be significant. However, this happens EVERY year on Dec 21 lol. As far as the increase in natural disasters, that's mostly just because the world is more connected now, so we actually hear about all them in the media, whereas 10 years ago news travelled much slower. Also human initiated climate change is causing an increase in ocean temperatures which in turn causes an increase in the number and severity of extreme weather phenomena (hurricanes, etc)

I hope I gave you all plenty of new questions to ask!

[Shurik]

The basic idea is that the current social and economic set up of our global society is primitive and damaging, and the movement advocates a ground up restructuring of the entire global society based on the scientific method (ie make society rationally, rather than based on a patchwork of ideologies and religions)

How do you propose to achieve it peacefully?

[browneyedgirl]

Everyone knows that 2012 is gonna be the end of the world as we know it. Why do you think there has been so many tornadoes this month. And such a cold, cold Winter. The poles are shifting, man. The axis of the Earth is about to be knocked askew. We are slowly turning into a tropical greenhouse as we speak. 2012. Watch for it.

Hope you're joking. In the Maya calendar the world won't end in 2012, but the new chronology will begin. The sensation seeking media is spreading that "we're all gonna die in 2012" message. Do you guys and girls remember the Y2K thing?

Of course I'm joking. 2012 does not have anything to do with all those natural phenomenon. even the Mayans are pissed off at all the exaggerations of coming destruction and stuff coming with 2012.

The movie was pretty good though.

[browneyedgirl]

Well in times like this its great to live in Finland.
No risk of tornadoes, earthquakes, volcano eruptions, tsunamis, rock slides or avalanches

You all do not have poisonous snakes or spiders either!!! A very safe(but, cold)place to live!

[Ultimo Mordecai]

The basic idea is that the current social and economic set up of our global society is primitive and damaging, and the movement advocates a ground up restructuring of the entire global society based on the scientific method (ie make society rationally, rather than based on a patchwork of ideologies and religions)

How do you propose to achieve it peacefully?

That is the big question within the movement right now as well. Basically, there are 2 major thoughts on this, although the major objective right now is simply to spread awareness of the movement and encourage the idea of questioning society in every facet. Anyways:

The more idealistic approach is that over time, as the movement grows and more technical specs are created for the actual society, that eventually it will be recognized by people with power, maybe even the government of a country. Either way, the hope is that once an actualy demo city (or virtual city, as seems more likely) is made, that the idea will spread and a transition will slowly begin from there.

Unfortunately, the much more realistic outcome is that a large scale economic collapse (which is pretty much inevitable in the coming decades) will bascially cause the current society to self destruct, or at least enough people will lose faith in our current ways that people will want to change to a new system. At this point, it is very likely that we will either adopt a new system and humanity will move forward, or we will fall victim to our current vices and probably destroy ourselves. Either way, this outcome requires things to get a lot worse before they can get better.

Obviously the movement is pushing for the first scenario, but we're also preparing for the second one. That's why raising awareness is the key goal right now, so that if a collapse does happen, at least people will be aware that there's potentially another option out there.

[browneyedgirl]

@Ultimo, what do you think about the rise in gas prices, and what part will this energy crisis play in the upcoming supposed upheaval?

[Ultimo Mordecai]

@Ultimo, what do you think about the rise in gas prices, and what part will this energy crisis play in the upcoming supposed upheaval?

Actually, the oil/gas will play a critical part in the economic meltdown. Since oil/gas reserves are being used at a rediculous rate, the prices will continue to rise since the supply drops. While this is going on, the demand for oil/gas is kept high by major energy corporations lobbying governments to ensure policies are in their favour (ie stifling the advancement of alternate energy forms). It's actually a pretty brilliant plan initially: Oil/gas supply drops, demand keeps increasing, the end result is that companies make huge profits.
Unfortunately, you can see right away how this is a mathematical disaster waiting to happen: what happens when the supply is so low, that the price becomes too high for most people to afford gas? Unfortunately, the rising gas prices we see now are just a taste of what will most likely occur. And when that happens, I imagine people are gonna be pretty pissed...

[Rebel]

Jesus started this 2000 years ago, rough road getting there though.

[robocop656]

OK, I waited long enough to argue with you, you sophisticated Rebel. I suppose you believe in Buddha too, right? Wait, you probably don't. Do you believe in the Ancient Greek Gods? Wait, you probably don't either. Sorry to burst your christ bubble. Get back to your redneck yacht club.


P.S.

I am my own son. It's easy pie when you live in the sky in the clouds. Like an invisible sky daddy.

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[Ultimo Mordecai]

Woah there, let's remember to keep it friendly

But yeah I agree with the seizuring dolphin, if you believe in any one religious entity, there is no logical way to denounce the existence of any deities in any religion, not even the flying spaghetti monster (ESPECIALLY the flying spaghetti monster! Lol)

[TwilightEagle]

this whoever scares the shit out of me, because there are more and more natural disasters going on as we approach 2012

There has been always natural disasters in world's history. The media and the film industry is of course spreading that 2012 panic. Some believes it and some don't.

[Rebel]

OK, I waited long enough to argue with you, you sophisticated Rebel. I suppose you believe in Buddha too, right? Wait, you probably don't. Do you believe in the Ancient Greek Gods? Wait, you probably don't either. Sorry to burst your christ bubble. Get back to your redneck yacht club.


P.S.

I am my own son. It's easy pie when you live in the sky in the clouds. Like an invisible sky daddy.

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I have 4 finals to study for, so I'm going to have to cheat a bit here and not write you up a response, instead, I'll send you something I wrote up a few weeks ago and sent to my brother. It's my own work though (With ideas and stories taken from other works of apologetics)

I just read this analogy out of a book, and it's very apt. Two men are
riding on a train, they look out the window and see rocks in a
formation that reads "Canadian Railways welcomes you to Canada"

The first man turns to the second and says "That must have taken a lot
of effort to arrange", and the second man laughs and says "But you
have no proof that the rocks were arranged that way, not only are
there a surplus of other rocks in the area of the same sort, but
they're on a hill, they could have fallen in that formation"

A few minutes later, the second man turns to the first and says "Well,
we had better go get our currency changed to Canadian".

The second man not only discredits obvious order that might have very
irrationally occurred out of chaos, but then later on, decides that
the sign, which he didn't believe had any validity, has some sort of
meaning in it and he could draw a conclusion from his observed chaos.


This is the naturalist paradox. If you put bricks on dynamite in large
enough quantities, you could theoretically through a combination of
force, material and chaos, build the Taj Mahal. But you never would.
The same is true of the Big Bang and mankind, except that the Big Band
was infinitely more crude, and mankind infinitely more complex. But in
reality, instead of the train ride, you are led to believe the
(Downright absurd) scientific conclusion about the universe, because
of misconceptions and unimportant caveats of cultural religion.

Consider the alternative. Mankind, limited, prone to evil and
generally mistake prone, are too little to really understand the
origins of the universe, because there is something far bigger, that
is responsible for the individual order of the universe.

In theory, we can crudely create with our minds and our imaginations,
but have no sufficient scientific explanation for how this happens.
It's like the fluctuation between order and chaos. Science has two
responses to that aspect, they can either deny it completely, or take
the longer approach. They can observe it happening, and they offer
potential explanations, but due to the nature of what's happening,
there is no scientific proof for it.

However, due to the nature of who is giving the explanation, we more
readily accept this Junk Science, you holding an equally
scientifically unfounded viewpoint as I do.

The issue is that it is not a battle between Science and Religion. It
is a battle between Theism and Naturalism, Science is the battlefield,
and although a brief glance might imply Naturalism's strength,
strenuous exploration reveals the strengths of theism.

From there, let's say at a standpoint of equal plausibility, you then
look to social and historical evidence. If a God were to reveal
Himself, especially the personal God Christianity claims to worship,
then He would have to be pretty incredible. What's argued in, I
believe the book of Isaiah, is that miracles are useless to the
skeptical, which is most of us. A miracle may or may not individually
convince one of us, but for it to be effective on a mass scale, He
would have to consistently perform miracles for everyone, almost all
the time.

What then is faith? And more importantly, how significant is the
decision to follow that God? It's like the decision to breathe before
you get out of breath. God is a being of infinite good that seeks to
be understood. How could He be understood in those circumstances.

Before I get diverted, I will go back to the point of how does a
loving God then reveal Himself? He would have to do something that
defied human possibility without being essentially a circus act. One
thing that really was beyond Humanity was to make true prophecy. To do
something so strong would require the prophet to either have such an
understanding of the universal chaos as to predict everything (And
thus, be a superhuman who could probably crush them with his
thoughts), something so powerful that they could influence the events
to come, or so omnipresent that they could step outside time and view
the events to happen. Or have a communion with someone or something
that could do one of those 3. Regardless, this is a feat, if repeated
even a few times, creates the situation perfect for fostering the
faith journey

This is not the vague, easily misinterpreted "Prophecy" of men like
Nostradamus, but the harsh, specific truth of the fall of Jerusalem
(Which happened 37 years after the death and resurrection of Christ),
or even the mass of old testament prophecy that is even specific as to
say that his hands, feet, and side will be pierced.

Of course, the ever absurd believer in the most absurd circumstances
of chaos could still explain it by saying "That's just how everything
coincidentally happened". That's where we go back to the two men on
the train. The first who sees the obvious order and such, the obvious
work of a designer, and the second, stubborn who sees the potential
for chaos and ignores the more plausible explanation.

[robocop656]

WHY IS THERE SOMETHING RATHER THAN NOTHING? Faith is believing in something without evidence. We can be here all night, all day, all week. You might be talking about consciousness with the quote- "In theory, we can crudely create with our minds and our imaginations, but have no sufficient scientific explanation for how this happens"....AND, if not for the DOWNRIGHT ABSURD Science as it is said in that quote, you wouldn't be typing on your little computer and would have probably died of chickenpox 15 years ago.

This is a common intelligent design argument. Running around in circles. Do you really believe the earth was created 5,000 years ago? Do you believe jesus was a REAL zombie? Do you believe that they put 2 of each animal in the world in a boat? Do you believe in magic? Turning water into wine? I've got too much real life hellish experiences with my family and friends telling me repetitively about these arguments FOR YEARS, being disowned by them by these fucking LIES! How do you like that? If you deny Science, you deny all the progress humanity has made so far. Do you want to go back to the times where they stoned each other? (THEY STILL STONE PEOPLE IN THE MIDDLE EAST)

The times where we knew nothing. Or, how about in Leviticus 19:27 where it says you can't shave? How about when we are supposed to kill our enemies? (Luke 19:27) See, did you read that part? No? How about that? Do you want to take the bible literally and do unimaginable things to other people? Just like those radical muslims? NO, of course not, that's not your religion, that's not mine, it can't be.....excuses. Do you want to throw your problems AKA sins on a goat AKA scapegoat instead of dealing with them yourself? How about those parts in the Bible people misinterpret that nobody ever reads? What a bitch, huh!!

Two pictures for you.

[miditek]

Well in times like this its great to live in Finland.
No risk of tornadoes, earthquakes, volcano eruptions, tsunamis, rock slides or avalanches

Quite true, but let us not forget that Finland is also next door to....Russia.

[Stealth]

But yeah I agree with the seizuring dolphin, if you believe in any one religious entity, there is no logical way to denounce the existence of any deities in any religion, not even the flying spaghetti monster (ESPECIALLY the flying spaghetti monster! Lol)

Very true.

So you are from Edmonton? Go vote today! Unless you are planning on voting Conservative... If you are, stay home!!!
I'll be heading to the polling station soon.

[Rebel]

WHY IS THERE SOMETHING RATHER THAN NOTHING? Faith is believing in something without evidence. We can be here all night, all day, all week. You might be talking about consciousness with the quote- "In theory, we can crudely create with our minds and our imaginations, but have no sufficient scientific explanation for how this happens"....AND, if not for the DOWNRIGHT ABSURD Science as it is said in that quote, you wouldn't be typing on your little computer and would have probably died of chickenpox 15 years ago.

This is a common intelligent design argument. Running around in circles. Do you really believe the earth was created 5,000 years ago? Do you believe jesus was a REAL zombie? Do you believe that they put 2 of each animal in the world in a boat? Do you believe in magic? Turning water into wine? I've got too much real life hellish experiences with my family and friends telling me repetitively about these arguments FOR YEARS, being disowned by them by these fucking LIES! How do you like that? If you deny Science, you deny all the progress humanity has made so far. Do you want to go back to the times where they stoned each other? (THEY STILL STONE PEOPLE IN THE MIDDLE EAST)

The times where we knew nothing. Or, how about in Leviticus 19:27 where it says you can't shave? How about when we are supposed to kill our enemies? (Luke 19:27) See, did you read that part? No? How about that? Do you want to take the bible literally and do unimaginable things to other people? Just like those radical muslims? NO, of course not, that's not your religion, that's not mine, it can't be.....excuses. Do you want to throw your problems AKA sins on a goat AKA scapegoat instead of dealing with them yourself? How about those parts in the Bible people misinterpret that nobody ever reads? What a bitch, huh!!

Two pictures for you.

In response to the first picture, Leviticus is an instruction to a specific people for a specific time, these "Absurd" regulations are a kind of health and safety code that was, again, hundreds of years ahead of what we knew about sanitation and kept them safe and healthy

As to the second, if God were to stop evil, then he would also destroy good. Being a deity of infinite good, He wants us all to CHOOSE that love, fully understanding that some people will not. If he were to stop evil before it could, then He would be a tyrant. This is not to say that God is somehow inefficient or anything of the sort. This is however, to say that creating "Expectations" for God is foolish. He is what He is, unendingly powerful and loving, so much so that creations that served Him unconditionally would serve Him no purpose or satisfaction.


If you think Luke 19:27 is an instruction to kill people, you're dumber than I thought.

The Parable of the Ten Minas

11 While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once. 12 He said: “A man of noble birth went to a distant country to have himself appointed king and then to return. 13 So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas.[a] ‘Put this money to work,’ he said, ‘until I come back.’
14 “But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, ‘We don’t want this man to be our king.’

15 “He was made king, however, and returned home. Then he sent for the servants to whom he had given the money, in order to find out what they had gained with it.

16 “The first one came and said, ‘Sir, your mina has earned ten more.’

17 “‘Well done, my good servant!’ his master replied. ‘Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities.’

18 “The second came and said, ‘Sir, your mina has earned five more.’

19 “His master answered, ‘You take charge of five cities.’

20 “Then another servant came and said, ‘Sir, here is your mina; I have kept it laid away in a piece of cloth. 21 I was afraid of you, because you are a hard man. You take out what you did not put in and reap what you did not sow.’

22 “His master replied, ‘I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow? 23 Why then didn’t you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?’

24 “Then he said to those standing by, ‘Take his mina away from him and give it to the one who has ten minas.’

25 “‘Sir,’ they said, ‘he already has ten!’

26 “He replied, ‘I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what they have will be taken away. 27 But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’”


This is not an instruction from Jesus to His people, it is the context of a parable, a lesson being taught to his followers.

[adrian9]

double rainbow cross upon the sky yeahh yeahh eeeahheha so intense!

[Ultimo Mordecai]

Sorry guys, my computer crashed Sunday night, so I haven't been able to keep up, looks like there have been some interesting developments in this thread....

@Rebel: You're obviously very passionate about your position, unfortunately you're letting your amygdala blind your cerebrum (your emotions are clouding your judgement)

First of all, your argument that Science/naturalism, whatever you wanna call it (labels aren't important, I'm just gonna call it science since that's what it is) assumes both chaos and order simultaneously is logically invalid. The analogy you give about the rocks forming the sign is a great example that you have NO IDEA how science actually works.
If one sees a bunch of rocks that have been arranged into a sign, a scientist would NOT say 'prove to me those rocks didn't randomly arrange themselves like that' because that scenario has a much lower PROBABILITY of being true, than the scenario that someone arranged them that way. Science is not blind faith in chaos, it's accepting that the chaos of the universe is governed by ordered rules. In this case, the odds of rocks spontaneously arranging themselves into a sign is not statistically significant, in other words WE MUST ASSUME that someone put them that way given the information we have.
If you had EVER read a scientific paper in your life, you'd understand that science is all about probability and statistics; your black and white explanation of chaos vs. order is therefore logically invalid.

Before you start saying how it makes more sense that the universe was arranged by an intelligence like the rocks, keep in mind that this requires an extra assumption (that a creator exists) while the explanation that the randomness of the universe is governed by physical laws which created life requires no additional assumptions, and in fact is incredibly easy to see if you actually understand physics, chemistry, and biology. In other words, there is no logical reason to assume the existence OR the absence of a creator; science has thus far been sufficient enough to explain everything. Really the theism vs. atheism debate is totally pointless.

Your idea that miracles must be true because so many people believe them is also logically invalid. Personal testimony has been shown time and again to be the worst form of evidence in existence, and you're relying on testimonies from 2000 years ago by people who did not understand even the basics of how the universe works. Of course they all thought miracles existed, they didn't know any other way to explain things.

You also have yet to address my point that one cannot believe in a religion and logically discount any others. So I'll ask you directly: If you believe in Jesus, how can you logically NOT believe in Zeus, Brama or Quetzelcouatl?
Until you overcome this logical fallacy inherent in your beliefs, there is no reason for anyone to regard anything you say on this matter.

Your say good cannot exist without evil and that god wants us to choose for ourselves. I say this is illogical and irresponsible of god. If he wants us to act a certain way, it's on him to show us why and prove to us that he's worth listening to. And don't bother giving me that crap about "god doesn't want us to test him". If he's gonna make a universe that we understand through testing, he should expect to be tested as well. To expect otherwise is childish and immature, and I see no reason to worship such an entity.

Lastly, that parable teaches that those who are faithful will recieve the kingdom of heaven, while those who are not will recieve nothing. This is an absolutely terrible lesson, for it teaches that blind faith will somehow lead to rewards. This is exactly the kind of thinking that is wrong with the world, I don`t care if it`s in the bible or if Jesus himself said it: I refuse to buy into logical fallacies, even if god himself stood before me and spoke them.

I spent my whole life in Catholic School, so I am more than familiar with Christianity and it`s doctrines. And I can say from personal experience that this shit makes no sense lol

So there you go Rebel, feel free to post more ranting gibberish and ignoring logic if you wish, but be prepared your every argument to be utterly destroyed.

[robocop656]

This is way too much shit. All I know is rebel said I am much dumber than he thought. Is that a surprise? We are all dumb. Don't say you are some guy on a fucking podium now speaking down to us. Where are we? Strato forum, oh yeah. It was some passage about killing people. What else? Don't really care about explaining some bible passage, I'm not into cults. It's pointless...just like saying before, we can be here forever. You're brought up with people who believed in something. What if you were born in some other country that doesn't acknowledge any type of god? It feels like you take everything for granted and it's set it stone. There is nothing set in stone. When you start assuming things were always a certain way, it's a lot easier to think you are the right one. ALSO, why do you want to follow the teachings of some guy you never even met and blindly except whatever he says is true? Why not be free and do what you want? It's a game that was created to prevent you from living to your full potential.

[RazielSR]

I'm "amazed" of how people still believing in churches, christianity or other kind of religions.. It is that difficult to understand that religion, churches and beliefs are just a political weapon mainly since 2000 years ago? Why don't you read about the creation and which was the purpose of the Catholic Church?
I live in a country 90% christian (anyway almost nobody is going to churches, it is just christian let's say by tradtition) and I have been baptized, communion and all that. You don't know how FALSE and ABSOLUTELY a disgrace is all that environment, and how twisted is all that "world"... churches, mass, etc, etc...damn...incredible that people around the world is still inside all that things. I suppose it is necessary for the majority. All religions in this world, maybe not at the beginning, were created to control people, that's all. If you feel good going to mass and praying every night, of course you can and you should, but obviously to be here talking about the validity of the bible, the most twisted and plenty of manipulation book in the history (just read how in different councils it was decided which gospels were ok and which ones not) it is just mad.
For me the bible is just a curious book and really good to know about some historic events and important characters...and there are some good stories too.
But if somebody wants to follow that book in real life, he/she should know that the next stop will be a sanitarium.
Anyway, bishops, popes and all that fake human beings laugh a lot about this whole political creation when they are not praying in the mass while they see how people still almost in the same place they were more than 2000 years ago. The business continues, the business stills alive, what a fantastic and confortable way to make money.

[robocop656]

Great point. It IS a business. One big, huge, gigantic corrupted business. There are many things that are also funny. Like how christians took the pagan holidays and ceremonial clothing and called it their own. And the pagan pine tree day, christmas. How catholic priests can get away with molesting boys and screwing the kids whole lives up. You can say I'm picking and choosing now. And also, religion bores the living hell out of me. Don't know how people can take it serious.

[NeverendingAbyss]

Great point. It IS a business. One big, huge, gigantic corrupted business. There are many things that are also funny. Like how christians took the pagan holidays and ceremonial clothing and called it their own. And the pagan pine tree day, christmas. How catholic priests can get away with molesting boys and screwing the kids whole lives up. You can say I'm picking and choosing now. And also, religion bores the living hell out of me. Don't know how people can take it serious.

I would say the same thing. I, for one, am a spiritual man. I don't believe in God that the church describes him as (vengeful, almighty, etc...) but I do believe there is something greater.

I hate religion, mainly because of their "You're religion is wrong, praise mine!" policy. I love Jesus, Mohammed, the Buddha because they meant to change mankind. Why should an organization tell me what to think about one or the other? Fuck them.