"Hypocrites!"

[miditek]

The church i'm at we don't believe that we're the only ones going to heaven. We believe anyone who turns from sin, and turns to God, accepting him as the Saviour who died, and rose again, for sinners, and who live their lives for him, will go to heaven. No matter what denomination.

Which amounts to saying that your church believes that Christians are the only ones going to heaven...

On a more positive note, one of Christianity's main tenets is that salvation and grace are available to all.

[Carcass]

The church i'm at we don't believe that we're the only ones going to heaven. We believe anyone who turns from sin, and turns to God, accepting him as the Saviour who died, and rose again, for sinners, and who live their lives for him, will go to heaven. No matter what denomination.

Which amounts to saying that your church believes that Christians are the only ones going to heaven...

On a more positive note, one of Christianity's main tenets is that salvation and grace are available to all.

In theory.

EDIT: I mean that in theory it's available for everybody.

[browneyedgirl]

The church i'm at we don't believe that we're the only ones going to heaven. We believe anyone who turns from sin, and turns to God, accepting him as the Saviour who died, and rose again, for sinners, and who live their lives for him, will go to heaven. No matter what denomination.

Which amounts to saying that your church believes that Christians are the only ones going to heaven...

On a more positive note, one of Christianity's main tenets is that salvation and grace are available to all.

In theory.

No, its true. Anyone who WANTS and CHOOSES to follow Christianity and follows the plan of salvation as stated by God, and the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved. God is not a selective being like mankind is. Its a hard, rocky road but those who have the strength&courage to stay on the journey will be rewarded.

[Carcass]

The church i'm at we don't believe that we're the only ones going to heaven. We believe anyone who turns from sin, and turns to God, accepting him as the Saviour who died, and rose again, for sinners, and who live their lives for him, will go to heaven. No matter what denomination.

Which amounts to saying that your church believes that Christians are the only ones going to heaven...

On a more positive note, one of Christianity's main tenets is that salvation and grace are available to all.

In theory.

No, its true. Anyone who WANTS and CHOOSES to follow Christianity and follows the plan of salvation as stated by God, and the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved. God is not a selective being like mankind is. Its a hard, rocky road but those who have the strength&courage to stay on the journey will be rewarded.

Sure, but in practice the place where you are born determines your religion, with few exceptions. Choosing Christ in order to get to Heaven would be a very cruel game. If one faith is hammered to your head from birth, you don't go and change it just like that (could you imagine yourself converting to Islam or Hinduism?). Especially if you are an uneducated child of a farmer in, say, India who have barely heard of this chap called Jesus. The chances of this person accepting Christ as his saviour are between slim and nil.

[miditek]

The church i'm at we don't believe that we're the only ones going to heaven. We believe anyone who turns from sin, and turns to God, accepting him as the Saviour who died, and rose again, for sinners, and who live their lives for him, will go to heaven. No matter what denomination.

Which amounts to saying that your church believes that Christians are the only ones going to heaven...

On a more positive note, one of Christianity's main tenets is that salvation and grace are available to all.

In theory.

No, its true. Anyone who WANTS and CHOOSES to follow Christianity and follows the plan of salvation as stated by God, and the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved. God is not a selective being like mankind is. Its a hard, rocky road but those who have the strength&courage to stay on the journey will be rewarded.

Sure, but in practice the place where you are born determines your religion, with few exceptions. Choosing Christ in order to get to Heaven would be a very cruel game. If one faith is hammered to your head from birth, you don't go and change it just like that (could you imagine yourself converting to Islam or Hinduism?). Especially if you are an uneducated child of a farmer in, say, India who have barely heard of this chap called Jesus. The chances of this person accepting Christ as his saviour are between slim and nil.

Christians are promised in the Bible that suffering for the sake of Christ's name is assured, and that it will happen. It is one of our most basic beliefs. Also, regarding those that have never heard of Christ, the appropriate Biblical response to that question is from:

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." Matthew 24:14

Take a look at how Nero used to use Christians in the arena in Rome for mere sport, and that was only the beginning! More recently, several Christian teenagers were beheaded in SE Asia (Indonesia, if I am not mistaken) whose sole crime were being Christians. Of course, Christians are also in danger is Iraq, Afghanistan, China, and the eyewitness accounts of persecution certainly continue to accumulate.

I wouldn't personally consider this simply a cruel game- it is real life, and Christians that have to die for their faith are ready to accept this as a matter of fact.

[NeonVomit]

Also, regarding those that have never heard of Christ, the appropriate Biblical response to that question is from:

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." Matthew 24:14

That fails to make any sense. I don't see how the child growing up in an village in India, raised with Hindu beliefs and never having been exposed to Christianity, who is killed in a freak accident deserves to go to hell simply because of blind luck.

Nor how that quotation is supposed to somehow explain that.

Do you believe if you had happened to be born in a Muslim country, you would still end up a Christian?

[miditek]

There are certain strains of syphilis that have actually grown resistant to antibiotics. Now that is just downright scary. I've often wondered if atheists, nihilists, and/or naturalists blame mother nature for these plagues too?

Bacteria were here before us.. to them we are the newcomers, the invaders. Also, to some of them we're... dinner!!

I can hear the Western-themed commercial with Sam Elliot saying, "People. It's what's fer dinner." =)

I blame mother nature, absolutely, for any disease, no matter how it's transmitted. Inasmuch you can blame her for much of anything since she has given us so much.

Heredity and environments, I'm sure, play a role, but most STD's are contracted by the choices (the whole free will thing, again) that many people make.

(Incidentally, bacterial antibiotics resistance and the resulting arms race between us and bacteria for more and more broad spectrum drugs is neatly explained by evolutionary theories.)

Lots of theories of various forms of evolution are around, of course.

Open mindedness in a democracy is certainly good as well. However, wouldn't you say that there are plenty of other countries that are equally democratic, such as Canada, UK, Australia, and even Sweden? The collective GDP and military power of all of the other democracies mentioned combined is still dwarfed by that of the US.

There are more complex issues at hand I think than just the general godlessness (which does indeed flourish in Sweden).

Sweden, thankfully, is not a poor, nor primitive society, either. However, I do feel that 230 years of
widespread belief in and worship of God has been very good for the US. Compare this with what 70 decades of state-sponsored atheism in the USSR did for Russia, and not to mention her satellites.

The US as a nation (built on the idea of freedom, religious and other) is a lot less religiously structured than, say Sweden.

Historically, or currently?

After all... Sweden's flag has a huge cross right smack in the middle of it!

Your theory does have some merit, however, the Jews had been in conflict in the middle east thousands of years prior to the European pogroms.

Hey, weren't they thrown out of Egypt as well and that country went to total shit shortly thereafter??

According to the Bible, the problems (via a series of plagues) began before the Jews left Egypt. In fact, it was the Pharoh's refusal to allow them to leave that triggered off a series of unpleasant events.

Have you ever at least considered the possibility that the Jews actually are God's chosen people? After trying for 5,000 years, isn't mankind certainly clever and evil enough to have wiped all of them out by now?

Well, all my belief systems are basically incompatible with the idea of the creator of the universe singling out 0.2% of Earth's human population for greatness.

Well, God actually seems to bestow greatness onto the Gentiles (non-Jews) as well. One of the earliest examples of this is from Genesis 21 (for reference)
when an angel of God appeared to Hagar, the mother of Ishmael (and firstborn son of Abraham).

After the exile of Hagar and her 16 year old son began, the angel appeared to her and said;

"What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid; God has heard the boy crying as he lies there. Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation."

This is the beginning of a family feud that has gone on for over five millennia now. The house of Issac and the house of Ishmael.

Then comes the issue of who is a Jew and who is not. The issue of a "Jewish race" (like, Jewishness is genetically determined) being chosen for this or that I find downright troubling.

Being born to a Jewish mother generally qualifies a person to call himself a Jew. Some are also converts, often due to marriage, and the like. You are 100% correct in your assessment that the Jews are not a "race". The Germans accused them of this, but scientifically speaking, it just doesn't fly.

There are, of course, Jews of Caucasian extraction, but also there are those of Ethiopian descent, and still others that have very Middle Eastern (Arabic and/or Persian)appearances. There are different congregations of religious Jews, such as Orthodox (devout), Conservative, and Reform, in addition to a number of secular folks as well. That's a pretty broad range of people, both racially, as well as socially.

So I definitely agree with you that the Jews are not a race, but are really more of an ethnic group.

I could of course consider it, but immediately thousands of very strange questions and loads of cognitive dissonance would pop up.

I can just imagine! , and to the melody of the instrumental classic "Hocus Pocus" by Focus.

I also find it weird that some Christians say this; "Jews are the chosen people".. because as unbelievers in christ, how could they get to heaven?

Many Christians also believe though, that through God, all things are possible. The Bible has post-incarnate appearances in the New Testament of long dead Old Testament Jewish prophets that certainly predated Christ. For instance, Matthew 24 features an appearance by Abraham in the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man. Moses and Elijah, two other OT figures also made post-incarnate appearances in the New Testamant, at the event that was known as the Transfiguration, and event that is documented in three of the four Gospels- Matthew 17:1, Mark 9:1, and Luke 9:28, where they both briefly appeared and spoke with Christ. Not only do these events show (from a theological viewpoint) that these OT Jews went to Heaven, but also reveals that God is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living, as well.

All the chosen ones end up in hell with Freddy Mercury, Ellen Degeneres, Keith Haring, Angelina Jolie, Saddam, Hitler and the rest of us? I readily admit that I probably don't understand enough about Christian doctrine though.

If you wanted to pick a more complex or debated theological issue, you couldn't have done a better job than with this one. Many Christian doctrines also show at least some conversions (by Jews to Christianity) during the time of the Great Tribulation.

Well, the question does remain; what country or empire has prospered by tormenting the Jews? Naming just one would be great, but I don't think that there are any.

Me neither!! In Europe it has just been one country or empire after another... kick them out, and inevitably bad shit starts happening =)

Biblical accounts throughout history illustrate that God would use certain nations to occupy, exile, and/or otherwise punish the Jews for turning away from God, however, if a country exceeds it's commission or orders from God (and essentially goes too far), then that country too will be punished. Many of these events predate modern or even medeival Europe, and include the empires of the Egyptians, the Assyrians, the Medes, the Babylonians, the Persians, as well as, the Romans. Merely coincidental (over and over again]? I don't think so.

Also, the world currently seems to think that it's okay to commit genocide against other non-Jewish groups as well. Mao and Pol Pot did a great job of that in the 1970's, and people continue to ignore these types of problems to this very day (Rwanda?).

Yeah..

I don't know if Antisemitism is a final symptom or not. I do think that Hitler used it as a vehicle in the beginning to eliminate political opponents, and I guess that it eventually became the centerpiece of his entire program, which was certainly unveiled at the Wansee Conference. Hitler wasn't the only one to do this, but he was probably the most well known.

I like the theory about how he caught syphilis from a Jewish prostitute in Vienna. And it ties in nicely with neurosyphilis perhaps causing him to do some really retarded things (kill Jews, invade Russia, to mention two out of many)

I think that Hitler also was suffering from Parkinson's disease as well. However, as I pointed out, hatred of that scale and magnitude that emitted from Der Corporal's brain is simply not natural, in my opinion.

The government does tend to put its beak in frequently where it does not belong. I don't think that the Founding Fathers would exactly be jumping for joy with Mayor Bloomberg's anti-smoking and anti-saturated fat crusades. I feel that if you don't like smoke, go to the non-smoking area, and if you are really worried about excessive fat, you don't have to go to McDonald's- or if you do, don't get a Big Mac, get a salad instead. =)

I don't know if they would be rolling in their graves or thinking "wow, it's still sort of working". Maybe both! =)

Hard to tell, at any rate, I am sure that it would be culture shock for them to see the country as it is today. Heheh- !

They were the completely crazy revolutionaries of their day... generally, to commit treason toward one's king back then was probably as serious to them as if it would be for us to think of someone who's.. well... selling crack to 8-year olds, raping undreage nuns, setting kittens on fire and stomping on them, selling some high-grade suitcase nukes to Iran, and THEN just for the hell of it shooting the President (but only after putting a cigar in the ass of one of his interns).

Treason was a much more serious offense back then; nowadays, it seems to be downright fashionable here in the States. Bill Keller of the New York Times is now a poster child for enforcement of the country's treason and sedition laws.

People were not just killed for treason against the crown, they were very brutally tortured to death.

Ummm, yes. I am sure that there were many people drawn and quartered after having a falling out with, the boss!

[NeonVomit]

You use the Bible an awful lot as a source.

Is it a reliable source? Is it truly the word of God?

And are you confusing freedom of speech with treason? Critisizing the government (any and every government) is not only acceptable in my book, but downright vital. The government needs to be challenged and critisized at every turn, to keep it on its toes.

The people rule, not the government. That's the theory, anyway.

[miditek]

You use the Bible an awful lot as a source.

Of course, most Christians do. I know of many people that have used it as the basis for obtaining masters and doctorates at seminary.

Is it a reliable source? Is it truly the word of God?

I believe that it is absolutely reliable, and is the infallible word of God. =) Did the prophet Zechariah not say in Zech 12:3 that God would make Jerusalem itself a heavy burden for the entire world, and that all who lifted it would be severely injured?

Why not Cairo? Or Damascus (which according to Isaiah 17:1 in Biblical prophecy is a doomed city.) ? Or any other of the numerous capital cities in the Middle East. Why Jerusalem, and why has this (among many other prophecies) been fulfilled.

Just for once, try to imagine that these guys are actually right, and carefully consider the implications that they are.

And are you confusing freedom of speech with treason? Critisizing the government (any and every government) is not only acceptable in my book, but downright vital.

Our government's most basic and essential role is to protect the citizens of the United States. When Bill Keller began revealing covert operations that the Federal Government is involved in, he seriously weakened our national defense by compromising those operations. And that, in short, is not freedom of speech, but it is treason.

The press has absolutely no legal basis for leaking information out on clandestine operations during a time of war. What do you think would have happened to him if he had been Publisher of the Moscow Times? How long do you think Putin would have even allowed him to live, let alone remain unpunished. It is regrettable that Keller was not arrested, tried, and summarily shot for his crimes.

The government needs to be challenged and critisized at every turn, to keep it on its toes. The people rule, not the government. That's the theory, anyway.

The Bible also calls for obedience to government, and to the laws of the country in which a person lives. When lawlessness abounds, you can be for certain that a country's days are numbered, unless law and order are reestablished.

[Carcass]

Of course, most Christians do. I know of many people that have used it as the basis for obtaining masters and doctorates at seminary.

Ok, but did they use it as a source? I'm currently on a history seminary and I can tell you that my professor would NEVER allow me to use the Bible as a primary source to determine when and what happened. Nor would I use it as a scientific book, like Galilei said, nature itself is the book we should read.

On the other hand, it's a good source for examining attitudes, mentalities etc. of the times when its books were written, I can imagine.

I believe that it is absolutely reliable, and is the infallible word of God. =) Did the prophet Zechariah not say in Zech 12:3 that God would make Jerusalem itself a heavy burden for the entire world, and that all who lifted it would be severely injured?

If I remember correctly, according to one prophecy Jesus's name was to be Immanuel. And didn't Jesus preach about signs of the end of the world that would come during the life time of his contemporaries? (I might be wrong though, the Bible is not the first book on my reading list.)

There are a lot of prophecies in the Bible. Some of them coming true is inevitable.

[JensJohansson]

Heredity and environments, I'm sure, play a role, but most STD's are contracted by the choices (the whole free will thing, again) that many people make.

Of course! STD's are a very specific subset of communicable diseases. They can be completely avoided by sexual abstinence. Or the risk can be reduced by using condoms. The same thing sort of goes for a lot of non-sexually transmitted pathogen-borne diseases too. Eg, if you really don't want to catch the flu (or ebola if it ever spreads) you can choose to try to stay away from people, even if it means living in a hut in the wilderness. And if you're not interested in 100% certainty, it doesn't have to be that extreme, you can just choose to wash your hands frequently, wear a facial mask etc. Etc. The state of the world as it is now anyway, STD's are not very high on the list of problems which could become a civilization-shattering event. I understand that they are tied to "immoral behavior", in a biblical sense and in the sense of a lot of other belief system as well. But the big big problems will be from airborne pathogens, not penis-, ass- or vagina-borne pathogens. :\ Hopefully not anytime soon..

Lots of theories of various forms of evolution are around, of course.

Of course with such a wide and all-encompassing subject, yes, there is a lot of debate, which is healthy! That's fully normal even in any narrow field of science. I can imagine grammarians carrying on decades-long feuds about the use of certain verb forms in old Gothic text or something like that. With evolution, which in broad strokes neatly explains why and how we have the variety of species we have today on Earth (and have ever had), of course there's vibrant discussion on a lot of subjects. It's a lot brader than Gothic grammar. It has already invaded almost every exciting branch of science. The idea of evolution thru natural selection now stretches its little slimey tentacles into so many other scientific fields beyond mere taxonomy and biology; like medicine, cell biology, psychology, sociology (which had some horrific political results the last century.. scientific ideas cannot always be trusted to be used in a good way by politicians).. and many others.

So there is debate of course, but the main sweeping idea though I would say everyone agrees about, which is: living things use hereditary traits to replicate themselves. These traits can undergo mutation. Differential rates of success in copying the organism will favor certain traits and disfavor certain other traits. Repeated over trillions of generations of replication, this process creates what we call different species.

The problem that people who believe in the Bible being the Literal Truth have, is that it's very hard to reconcile that idea and this "main sweeping idea" as both being accurate descritions of the natural history of biology. I don't envy those who would even try. I am of course (if nobody guessed it yet...) a complete non-believer in the Bible as Literal Truth so I have it very easy! It would cause me a lot of gnashing of brains to make these two truths fit together. Actually I don't think I would be able to if I tried for a lifetime..

Sweden, thankfully, is not a poor, nor primitive society, either. However, I do feel that 230 years of widespread belief in and worship of God has been very good for the US. Compare this with what 7 decades of state-sponsored atheism in the USSR did for Russia, and not to mention her satellites.

Oh Soviet Russia.. that place was fucked up beyond belief. But I'll have you note that they were also extremely non-liberal! They kicked out and persecuted the Jews the same way Spain did at some point -- they became infected with that There Is Only One Correct Way To Think mental virus. The USSR is where the expression "politically correct" actually originated from. And it wasn't a joke. Political incorrectness resulted in your execution, in the 30s at least.

Sweden has always been quite liberal.. and has as far as I know never kicked any jews out either. Coincidence?? Who knows?! =)

I wonder if there was ever a liberal godless country or empire who still kicked out Jews? That would be the one interesting data point.

The US as a nation (built on the idea of freedom, religious and other) is a lot less religiously structured than, say Sweden.

Historically, or currently?

Historically. But a lot of the symbolical structures are still there (like in vestigial form.. like the flag, the king, the state church etc.)

Sweden is strange, because we truly started prospering only when we realized it's better to tstay the fuck out of all these insane wars. It's been like 200 years or something.

This is the beginning of a family feud that has gone on for over five millennia now. The house of Issac and the house of Ishmael.

Five millennia. Oy vey.

I can just imagine! , and to the melody of the instrumental classic "Hocus Pocus" by Focus.

This one!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yekVlhBeTA

I want a bag full of whatever drugs that keyboard player is on!!!!!

I think that Hitler also was suffering from Parkinson's disease as well. However, as I pointed out, hatred of that scale and magnitude that emitted from Der Corporal's brain is simply not natural, in my opinion.

I sadly think it's natural, by my definition. Natural.... but definitely not good!!

Ummm, yes. I am sure that there were many people drawn and quartered after having a falling out with, the boss!

What they did anyway took some SERIOUS fucking balls...

[JensJohansson]

And before anyone beats me to it, I realize I must come off as an arrogant prick to anyone who believes in the Bible etc. I simply am unable to wrap my head around the idea of giving up (me personally giving up) my belief in humanity's shared self-consistent system of explanations for so many things in observable reality which is rooted in the scientific method, and replacing it in faith in the literal word of a book that old and which by definition cannot be revised even given new knowledge. The last part I think is my more serious objection. If you can't add to it or change it, it's bound to become outdated.

This may be a deficiency in my head-wrapping abilities, but of course it doesn't feel as such to me. To me the evolution issue is almost worse than beating a dead horse.. the race ran already, the horse died and was made into glue, and what's being beaten is an empty glue bottle.

Of course this is SO typically what an arrogant prick would type... sorry.

On the other hand only an arrogant prick would mutter "and yet she moves" after being hauled before the inquisition..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair

other viewpoint:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v14/i1/galileo.asp

That took some balls too. Nowadays of course the scientific method is quite mainstream, and the inquisition is something of the distant past. So no balls were really required in writing this message...

[NeonVomit]

You use the Bible an awful lot as a source.

Of course, most Christians do. I know of many people that have used it as the basis for obtaining masters and doctorates at seminary.

Is it a reliable source? Is it truly the word of God?

I believe that it is absolutely reliable, and is the infallible word of God. =) Did the prophet Zechariah not say in Zech 12:3 that God would make Jerusalem itself a heavy burden for the entire world, and that all who lifted it would be severely injured?

Why not Cairo? Or Damascus (which according to Isaiah 17:1 in Biblical prophecy is a doomed city.) ? Or any other of the numerous capital cities in the Middle East. Why Jerusalem, and why has this (among many other prophecies) been fulfilled.

Just for once, try to imagine that these guys are actually right, and carefully consider the implications that they are.

You use the bible itself as proof of its own reliability. Somehow, that just doesn't really click. That's like a defendant at a trial acting as his own character witness.

I have seen no proof, however, to show that these guys are right, other than their own words, and those of their followers. I find it difficult to have absolute blind faith in something that there is no objective evidence for.

Much evidence supporting the bible's truth that I have read has followed similar reasoning and methods to firing an arrow into a wall at random, and then painting a target around it. It reminds me of astrology, paint vague pictures that the natrual course of events will inevitably fall into.

I simply cannot bring myself to believe it with such flimsy evidence. If the bible is the infallible word of God, then why has it been edited, re-edited, abridged and re-written by man so many times? And translated into so many languages, when each language can never be a perfect mirror of the other?

Who wrote it? When? How do you know it wasn't some crackpot who liked eating mushrooms, and then edited by an alcoholic? Unless I know the answers to these questions, I refuse to take the bible as a reliable source for anything. The book does contain much wisdom and insight into human nature, but it also contains an awful lot of total rubbish, like the story of Noah and the Ark. It's a nice story, but totally, completely impossible.

The biggest problem I have with Christianity is not only does it advocate blind faith, it openly demands it. The whole 'do not question' thing is highly unnatural. Man is by nature an inquisitive creature. Telling him not to question things is like telling a bird not to fly.

I will not imagine anyone is right unless I have a reason to, and evidence to show me that they are, in fact, correct. The bible is not meant to be taken literally at all, I believe. The only things that I think should be taken even remotely literally is the short section on the life and words of Christ himself. That section does have hard evidence supporting it, thanks to Roman records and the scholar Josephus, and while I'm not even sure God exists and therefore I am unsure about the divinity of Christ, for me the man was the revolutionary of all revolutionaries, with truly groundbreaking ideals and thoughts.

Whether Christ was the son of God or not is irrelevant to me. He was possibly the most amazing person to ever live, and it saddens me no end that his most proactive 'supporters' have now chosen to completely ignore all that he said and did in his life, twisting his words and stories to fit their own sick actions. Look at the Spanish Inquisition... the most horrible example of moulding Jesus' words for other means.

Maybe I am a form of Christian after all... I roughly follow Jesus' own ideals, he had some great ideas and knew what he was talking about. Whatever the Church says however, I don't even bother listening to. It just angers me.

[browneyedgirl]

With God, all things are possible.
I find it easier to believe&have faith in one God than all the hodgepodge&myriad of Gods that other religions believe&have faith in. But, whatever floats your boat is fine, IMO.
Well, if anyone is interested I have a link to a good Revelation site. However, I don't believe in the rapture theory, btw. And not just because as a Church of Christ I was not taught it----it just does not make sense to me.
http://www.apocalypsetheunveiling.com/t ... ntents.htm

[NeonVomit]

I find it easier to believe&have faith in one God than all the hodgepodge&myriad of Gods that other religions believe&have faith in. But, whatever floats your boat is fine, IMO.

You believe in God because it's easier than other religions? That's a pretty weak basis to choose your faith! But, of course, freedom of religion means you can choose to believe whatever you want, without fear of persecution!

And just so you know, I'm not anti-Christian or anything. I dislike all religions equally

[Carcass]

I find it easier to believe&have faith in one God than all the hodgepodge&myriad of Gods that other religions believe&have faith in.

My point exactly! You know what? Those subscribing to polytheistic religions too find their faith making a lot more sense. What a weak religion Christianity is, only one god to trust on. How moronic!

It's easier for you to believe in the christian God cause you got a Christian upbringing. This is how people "choose" a religion to believe in. Therefore, it is very cruel of God to throw one soul to China, another to India, few to Iran etc. What are their chances of getting to Heaven? Not good.

[browneyedgirl]

I find it easier to believe&have faith in one God than all the hodgepodge&myriad of Gods that other religions believe&have faith in.

My point exactly! You know what? Those subscribing to polytheistic religions too find their faith making more sense. What a weak religion Christianity is, only one god to trust on. How moronic!

Yes, that is exactly what those religions think of Christians.
But, having all those Gods to worship is not only spreading faith too thin, it also breaks one of the commandments, "Thou shall have no other Gods before me".
Actually, True Christians don't care what the world, or other religions think of them-they just live their life&have their faith. In the end, who cares what others think?

[Carcass]

But, having all those Gods to worship is not only spreading faith too thin, it also breaks one of the commandments, "Thou shall have no other Gods before me".

Yes, from the point of view of a Christian. Ten Commandments have little relevance for a non-Christian. They will not take heed to the commandments, they don't know them and they don't really care what other relgions say about their religion. I fail to see the point with saying that polytheism breaks one of the commandments.

[browneyedgirl]

But, having all those Gods to worship is not only spreading faith too thin, it also breaks one of the commandments, "Thou shall have no other Gods before me".

Yes, from the point of view of a Christian. Ten Commandments have little relevance for a non-Christian. They will not take heed to the commandments, they don't know them and they don't really care what other relgions say about their religion. I fail to see the point with saying that polytheism breaks one of the commandments.

Duh Because it is POLYtheism. Worshipping other Deities in place of God.
But, I will not argue about religion. I prefer to wait til the time comes to see how it all will end. Life is a mystery&death is an even bigger one. All shall be revealed to us when the time is right.

[miditek]

Sweden has always been quite liberal.. and has as far as I know never kicked any jews out either. Coincidence?? Who knows?! =)

I would say that the Swedes probably have a good image in regards to this, thanks largely to the efforts of Raoul Wallenberg, who saved a great deal of Jews with Swedish diplomatic passports.

I would refer to this guy as Sweden's Schindler, but
he saved many more people. Thousands of them. Schindler should still be commended for saving his 1,100 though.

[miditek]

It's easier for you to believe in the christian God cause you got a Christian upbringing. This is how people "choose" a religion to believe in. Therefore, it is very cruel of God to throw one soul to China, another to India, few to Iran etc. What are their chances of getting to Heaven? Not good.

Not necessarily. We've had eyewitness accounts (as well as photos, videos, visitors, etc.) during services at our church from mission teams that have just returned from China, as well as India. The teams are made up of members of the church, and most describe this work as life changing events for everyone that is involved. All of them describe the hunger that people in these countries have shown for God's word and presence in their lives.

Christianity is exploding in China right now, although the state only permits a single Christian denomination. The IMB (International Missions Board) also has a collection of dozens of eyewitness accounts of miracles being witnessed there- more than have been reported since the Biblical times in the Middle East itself.

Other teams are building schools and clinics in Central and South America. A close friend of the family recently returned from a mission trip to- of all places, Afghanistan. The Taliban penalty over there for conversion (or proselytizing) to Christianity is death. But our friend told him that God said to "Go there", and as scared as he was, he did, and he has a completely different view of things now.

And right here in our hometown, my family has long worked with inner-city kids, in addition to children from orphanages. Their really is a lot of work to be done..!

Your attitude towards God seems to be really negative, and I find that to be more than a bit troubling. It is unfortunate if some folks can't (or won't) see and appreciate the good things that God can and does do for his people- and more often than not, through his people. Times such as that, can really make a huge difference in our outlook on life.

No God doesn't hate the Chinese or the Indians- not at all. And besides, there are plenty of apostates and non-believers in America these days.

[miditek]

Whether Christ was the son of God or not is irrelevant to me. He was possibly the most amazing person to ever live

I hope that you're not falling into the trap that Jesus was some sort of great humanist or philosopher. That could not be farther from the truth. Christ, on many occasions, expressed His deity, and those words were revealed many times. No humanist (or related secular types) would ever impersonate a deity.

If Jesus were such a "great" man, why would he claim to be God incarnate? If this were unture, then he must have been a liar. Does this hypothetical lie contribute to his greatness, or just add to his legend?

If he were merely a Rabbi, as the Jews regarded him as (Y'Shua), then what type of Rabbi would be insane enough to equate himself with God? It's pretty apparent that they might actually crucify someone like that for blasphemy?

If he were simply a prophet of Allah, as the Muslims claim, why would he (Isa) tell Pilate that his kingdom was not of this world, and admit that he was indeed the King of, the Jews- the mortal enemy of Islam?

In your opinion, what was it about Jesus that you found to be so amazing? I mean was it the Sermon on the Mount? Chasing the moneychangers from the temple? Confounding the Sanhedrin with his thoughtful responses wrapped in a supernatural knowledge of theology? The miracles? If you "like" Jesus, that's great, but wasn't too clear on what you thought is/was great about him?

BTW- the Inquisition has been over for hundreds of years now. Moreoever, it was a byproduct of Rome, and not the Protestant movement. I'd like to think that many Christians (and this certainly includes Catholics) are making a difference and helping people now.

[browneyedgirl]

Yes, Pagans, nonbelievers&anti-Christians ALWAYS bring up the inquisition and the witchhunts of the 1600s as a means to bash and criticize Christians, when these were just movements by a small section of fanatic Roman Catholic priests&clerics. The vast majority of Protestants and Christians did not follow, or even agree with these very temporary movements.
Also, it was the ROMANS who destroyed the Pagan&Celtic peoples, NOT the Christians. This extermination started happening LONG before Christ&Christianity was even born!

Another thing some people so easily(for some reason)forget is that the Christians undrwent extreme persecution, unspeakable torture, and millions have died for their right to believe in God&Jesus Christ. I mean, you have to have alot of love&faith to allow yourself to be torn apart by lions, or boiled alive in oil. And, many christians are still dying for their faith today in many countries.
One of the hatefullest things I have heard someone say(a loving Pagan) in regard to Christians was,"I wish the Rapture would occur so all the Christians would disappear from the face of the Earth&everyone else in the world could finally have a peaceful existence." To the first part of that raging comment I say,"Oh, Yes!Christians have awaited that." to the second part I say,"I don't think that's what will happen."

[NeonVomit]

Whether Christ was the son of God or not is irrelevant to me. He was possibly the most amazing person to ever live

I hope that you're not falling into the trap that Jesus was some sort of great humanist or philosopher. That could not be farther from the truth. Christ, on many occasions, expressed His deity, and those words were revealed many times. No humanist (or related secular types) would ever impersonate a deity.

If Jesus were such a "great" man, why would he claim to be God incarnate? If this were unture, then he must have been a liar. Does this hypothetical lie contribute to his greatness, or just add to his legend?

If he were merely a Rabbi, as the Jews regarded him as (Y'Shua), then what type of Rabbi would be insane enough to equate himself with God? It's pretty apparent that they might actually crucify someone like that for blasphemy?

If he were simply a prophet of Allah, as the Muslims claim, why would he (Isa) tell Pilate that his kingdom was not of this world, and admit that he was indeed the King of, the Jews- the mortal enemy of Islam?

In your opinion, what was it about Jesus that you found to be so amazing? I mean was it the Sermon on the Mount? Chasing the moneychangers from the temple? Confounding the Sanhedrin with his thoughtful responses wrapped in a supernatural knowledge of theology? The miracles? If you "like" Jesus, that's great, but wasn't too clear on what you thought is/was great about him?

BTW- the Inquisition has been over for hundreds of years now. Moreoever, it was a byproduct of Rome, and not the Protestant movement. I'd like to think that many Christians (and this certainly includes Catholics) are making a difference and helping people now.

I believe Jesus was a great guy, but then the whole mysticism was added to him for that reason. Who can really say for sure? It's been 2000 years. I just can't see how anyone can take any story that's been circulating for that long at face value.

I'm not some great humanist or whatever who refuses to have anything to do with any religion. I'm someone who doesn't claim to know what the hell IS going on, and have issues with people who claim to. Man's insignificance in the grand scheme of things can be a painful thing to get used to for some, but it's nice being a small cog in a huge machine. Do i believe something is out there? It probably is. Do I claim to even have the smallest understanding of who/what it is and how they/it works? Hell no. And I think no mere mortal mind ever could. The sheer scope of the entire universe simply cannot be comprehended by man. We're too small, too weak and too stupid yet. Maybe in a few thousand years we will reach a level where we can (provided we don't blow ourselves up)

What Jesus did and said were truly great, and I don't care if he DID claim to be the son of God and was therefore a liar in that sense. It matters absolutely not to me. Maybe he did that to get attention, or he never said it, or wasn't entirely there upstairs, or maybe the accounts are faulty. Maybe God exists and he was his son, I'm not saying that's impossible, but simply I have seen nothing to prove to me that God exists in the first place, so you understand why I have trouble taking that to be the truth.

The other things he said and did (like a couple of the examples you gave, and his ideas for how people to live their lives... 'be nice to each other!' etc.) are what have value to me. Why not take Jesus to be a philospher? His words make more sense and have more relevance to everyday life than many other well-known philosophers I could mention.

You take for granted that God exists, and that Jesus was the son of God, and all that, and that's cool, it's your opinion and you choose to believe that. You have no doubt at all in your mind. I however don't take these things for granted, and am sceptical about everything and anything. You must understand that. So are many other people. I don't see the bible as the infallible word of a God that may or may not exist.

I gave the Inquisition as an example of the horrible things that are carried out in the name of religion. Any religion.

Again, I am not anti-Christian, I am anti-organised religion It has been used as a tool by politicians for centuries to get people to kill each other.

However, I think religion has a place in life, and society. Because science will never hold the answers for everything (although I think it does for most things), and I think something supernatural and beyond human comprehension exists. That's all.

[JensJohansson]

I would say that the Swedes probably have a good image in regards to this, thanks largely to the efforts of Raoul Wallenberg, who saved a great deal of Jews with Swedish diplomatic passports. I would refer to this guy as Sweden's Schindler, but he saved many more people. Thousands of them. Schindler should still be commended for saving his 1,100 though.

Yay, big pat on the back for me.. I'm from Sweden!! ....wait a second, I wasn't even born!!! Never mind! I'll give myself a slap on the ass just to be safe.

There's also the matter of the Danish Jews... there were only like 8000 or so, but 99% of them escaped being put to death, most of them by crossing the water to neutral Sweden and then by not being tossed out. That's a lot compared to some other countries.

I still believe some Jews at some point were turned away by Sweden though. There were just too many.. Germany kept capturing all these territories full of Jews and they had the insane idea that they needed to be disposed of .. so .. yeah.. we all know what happened. :\

It's funny that Sweden never joined NATO, but that's how it is. Being formally neutral sometime has a lot of advantages. But your "cultural memory" fades in regards to how it feels to get occupied, have your civilians murdered or your cities razed. I still remember seeing an interview with Denmark's premier minister right after 9/11/01... he was so fucking pissed off he looked ready to strangle someone.. anyone.. who looked at him funny. =) A totally different look than in the US. People from the US just looked ... somehow totally shocked. There is no cultural memory at all in the US of that city razing thing. Or at least there wasn't ... until that small taste in September 2001.

Funny thing number two (furter contributing to insane thread drift because it has nothing to do with "HYPOCRITES") is that German scienctists were forbidden or discouraged to consider relativity.... relativity was of course "JEWISH HOCUS POCUS". They set up all sorts of official belief systems, an idea of "German physics" which relied on common Aryan empirical sense and not all this Jewish mathematical nonsense. What a bunch of stupid fucking clowns... actually Werner Heisenberg and some of his "heretic" physicist colleauges were publicly attacked by the SS. It took direct intervention by Himmler to save his ass, after someone explained what a fucking CATASTROPHIC loss for Germany it would be to lose Heisenberg. Some people believe Heisenberg basically stalled the German nuclear research efforts.. we'll never really know. What can be said for sure is that he didn't try to push for actual and practical research into making a fissile materials weapon, in any way. If they would have shifted all the effort they put into rockets, into nukes instead.. dann würden wir alle hier vermutlich Deutsch geredet haben.

[Carcass]

Christianity is exploding in China right now, although the state only permits a single Christian denomination. The IMB (International Missions Board) also has a collection of dozens of eyewitness accounts of miracles being witnessed there- more than have been reported since the Biblical times in the Middle East itself.

I'm aware of the explosion, its very difficult to make an estimation though, Chinese prefer to keep these things private. However, the vast majority of Chinese are not Christian, nor will they ever be; at least not any day soon. This doesn't change my opinion that there are a lot of people who have extremely bad chances of ever being exposed to Christianity enough to make a real choise. And what about the souls that lived in China before this explosion? They are countless, not to mention the souls of India.

Your attitude towards God seems to be really negative, and I find that to be more than a bit troubling.

Yes, it's very difficult for me to believe or like an interventionist God. The Problem of Evil is the crux of the issue, I think. Book of Job doesn't explain evil in a satisfactory way. How on earth can God, who is omnipotent and omnibenevolent, curse his children with Black Death (killed one third of Europe), The Yellow Fever (50 - 100 million dead), Malaria (few million dead every year), all the droughts, cancer, tsunamis (Indian Ocean in 2004, more than 200 000 dead), earth quakes and floods? Just to test their faith? That is pretty sadistical to me. But on the other hand, that is not so different from what I would expect from the God of the Old Testament.

It is unfortunate if some folks can't (or won't) see and appreciate the good things that God can and does do for his people- and more often than not, through his people. Times such as that, can really make a huge difference in our outlook on life.

Nothing I've seen has convinced me that God rewards his people, I would say he randomly punish people for nothing and in some cases even rewards people when they certainly do not deserve a reward. I see no great plan in the history of our planet. There are no signs of a cosmic finger poking the apes to develope to the right direction, only meteorites crashing, ice ages and volcanoes bursting. No, if there is a God, we are like fish in a bowl for him.

People are able to care, with or without God. The people of God have done both good and bad, just like everybody else on this planet.

And right here in our hometown, my family has long worked with inner-city kids, in addition to children from orphanages. Their really is a lot of work to be done..!

Sure, Christians are able to be good, kind, caring and helping; just like non-religious people. Christian organizatiosn are responsible for a lot of good and valuable work, but they do not have monoploy on philanthropia. Even the godless Scandinavia put money in foreign aid.

Pagans and Christians are equally good and bad.

[NeonVomit]

I agree, don't think any good work is only able to be carried out by Christians. Even your arch-nemesis Muslims do a lot of good work through charities.

There are evil sadistic bastards everywhere, including within Christianity (let's not get started on the child-molesting priests...) and everywhere else. I mean EVERYWHERE. We may have been picking over Christianity, but truth be told it's not as easy a target as many other religions (If we had a thread like this about Islam for example, it would be like shooting fish in a barrel...)

The bible and Christianity in general do not capture the vast scope of reality and existance. That's why I'm not too hot on them. They encourage closed-mindedness. Thinking only Christians can be capable of real good is a dangerously erroneous idea.

[Carcass]

We may have been picking over Christianity, but truth be told it's not as easy a target as many other religions (If we had a thread like this about Islam for example, it would be like shooting fish in a barrel...)

True, let's not forget this. The West fortunately is almost entirely rid of extreme religious behaviour.

Jesus Camp scared me quite a bit, though.

[browneyedgirl]

What people Should ask is,"Why does God allow good things to happen to bad, or morally rotten people?"

We live in a fallen, sinful world. God does NOT have to explain himself to us. But, He will. When we all stand before Him on the Day of Judgment&give an account of all the wrongs we have done, people we've hurt, etc. we all will get an answer to the endless puzzles we all have as to the workings of people's minds. behavior, etc throughout history. and, then ther is Nature.
Why is it some people Scapegoat God for all the bad stuff that happens, yet never give him the credit for the good? How ungrateful we are! If God does not punish us, I think he is a loving God because ALL of us deserve punishment as a fallen world. Nobody is perfect.
God created the universe&the laws that govern it. The Elements. The disasters are the result of these natural forces at work. Are natural disasters punishments fom God? Absolutely NOT! It is just Mother Gaia/the Elements doing their thing. This is simply how the creation is! God has no active hand in what happens to the natural elements, although he did create them.

It has been said that this world is the Hell for believers, while this world is the only Heaven the UNbelievers will experience. I guess we all shall see.
I'd rather believe in God&find out in the end I simply wasted my time--than to be an UNbeliever&find out in the end that he does indeed exist!

People tend to be cautious about blindfollowing God&religion, yet will have no reservation following&idolizing a movie star, musician, or celeb who is totally morally bankrupt. Before anyone says anything smartass--yea, I used to be that way before I opened my eyes and grew up. About time.

But, being a Christian is ot sunshine&roses----its like the saying,"Fat&Ugly girls are always morally good because they never have a choice." A true Christian is tried by fire of the temptations of the world. God does not force anyone to follow him----if he did, the belief would be shallow&meaningless. Like the STEPFORD WIVES, who were programmed to always do good&be good little helpmates to their husbands. No feelings, no mind or will of their own. God actually does not want us like that----He wants us to follow him and the moral lifestyle by our own will, not like Sheeple following a popular musician, for example.

Sorry for the ramblings. The topic is about Hypocrites. An example of a Total hypocrite would be some salesman, etc. who claims to be(tells everyone)he is happily married--yet, everytime he goes out of town on business he Cheats on his wife&calls it "Just Fucking"or "Having fun.". In his mind since he does not love the participant, she in his mind does not exist&therefore the act, did purely for fun, does not count in the grand scheme of things. Well, everything has its price&in the end, lets all see if it was worth it? At the time, sin&hurting others is always cool, though.

[NeonVomit]

Does an innocent six year old child deserve to die of a horrible illness, because the world is a rotten place? While corrupt criminals can live a long life of luxury? Is that meant to be justice? "Oh they'll be judged in the afterlife and spend eternity in hell" for some reason, doesn't sound very comforting to me. I care about this life.

I thought the whole point of Jesus dying for our sins was meant to cover that...

And you don't see people killing in the name of a famous musician, or movie star. Or any famous musicians saying they will grant you eternal life, and that they created the universe. Bit of a difference there. Yes, some people do get obsessed and idolise famous people, but they mostly grow out of it after puberty, except for some isolated cases in which they have mental difficulties.

Blind, all-accepting faith in ANYTHING is wrong. I have a friend of mine who's in a relationship with this girl, whom he is completely obsessed with. He sees her as the most perfect person to walk the earth, the most ideal creation in the universe. Luckily for him she's also a good person at heart, so she doesn't manipulate him, but it's creepy, he's lost his character being with her.

I really prefer religious people who are well-informed, question and are eager to find out more than what they just hear from their preacher/imam/prayer leader/whatever. To seek their own answers, to find their own conclusions. I've met a few like that, and I wish there were more of them. The world would be a much more peaceful place.