US president 2008: Candidates, discussion, and the rest...

Talk about everything else besides Stratovarius here in English. Please try to put more serious topics here, and silly topics in the Spam section.
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AAAAAAAAAA
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Re: US president 2008: Candidates, discussion, and the rest...

Post by AAAAAAAAAA » Wed Sep 10, 2008 7:45 pm

When on earth did I ever 'defend radical Islam'? Give me specific examples. When did I ever say I support any of their actions?
Writing that "vengeance should not be the right path" in the context of killers is tantamount to saying they should not be punished. Not cracking down on murderers is for all intensive purposes supporting them.
I'm sorry that I have to point out the fact that you contradict the teachings of your own faith.
What is your solution to the terrorist problem?
Many fundamentalists demand that all "non believers" be killed.
What is your solution to this?

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Re: US president 2008: Candidates, discussion, and the rest...

Post by icecab21 » Wed Sep 10, 2008 7:53 pm

of course no one deserved something like this and we should capture and or kill those that we can prove reasponsible.

to say that there was no motive for 911 just does not fit the history between the usa and extreme muslims.

Israel, the relationship that the USA has had with it, is one factor that goes into the equation. Another factor is broken promises and leaving countries in need when they need rebuilding the most such as after the Soviet Union was defeated in Afghanistan.


It does not matter what other countries do or what other factions do, it matters what the USA does and if they lower their standards and say that it is to save the country.

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Re: US president 2008: Candidates, discussion, and the rest...

Post by NeonVomit » Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:25 pm

AAAAAAAAAA wrote:
When on earth did I ever 'defend radical Islam'? Give me specific examples. When did I ever say I support any of their actions?
Writing that "vengeance should not be the right path" in the context of killers is tantamount to saying they should not be punished. Not cracking down on murderers is for all intensive purposes supporting them.
Oh I never said that terrorism shouldn't be combatted. Most European countries have had their own terrorist issues to fight (ETA, the IRA, Baader-Meinhoff, November 17 etc.) and I'm glad they do, it helps me sleep at night. And did I ever say I was against the Afghanistan operation? Find one post where I say anything like that.

I did say however that invading a country that had nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks was a waste of lives, resources and time, i.e. Iraq. And the whole Guantanamo bay thing is a disgrace and a huge symbol of double standards. As the 'civilized West' we have standards to maintain, because losing those standards means we let the terrorists destroy the most fundamental things of our society - freedom and respect for human rights.

If they're terrorists, then give them a fair trial and punish them for their crimes in that way - by the rule of law.
What is your solution to the terrorist problem?
Many fundamentalists demand that all "non believers" be killed.
What is your solution to this?
If I had an easy solution I'd be doing something in that area :D but again, I can think of the Afghanistan operation as a good step in the right direction. Unfortunately, Bush thought that it could also be applied to Iraq, and we saw what happened there.

Guantanamo bay is the wrong way to end it, but hopefully that will end soon, we've started seeing terror suspects go on trial and be found guilty and sentenced. That's one of the foundations of Western society, and we need to maintain that.
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Re: US president 2008: Candidates, discussion, and the rest...

Post by icecab21 » Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:53 pm

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/06/12/scotus/index.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/08/ ... 8770.shtml

"Legal scholars say if Hamdi can be imprisoned in a military jail with few of the constitutional protections afforded Americans facing criminal prosecution, then other U.S. citizens could be similarly held."

"Hamdi is not the first U.S. citizen classified by the government as an enemy combatant, but his case is nonetheless unique. A German saboteur caught on U.S. shores during World War II also was a U.S. citizen, but he was given a lawyer and tried before a military tribunal. "

Beg, since you have gone on a thing about how the bush side is right to do this, has this persuaded you to vote for McCain and Palen?

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Re: US president 2008: Candidates, discussion, and the rest...

Post by browneyedgirl » Thu Sep 11, 2008 2:14 am

Beg, since you have gone on a thing about how the bush side is right to do this, has this persuaded you to vote for McCain and Palen?
I have not done any such thing, and its none of your goddamn business who I vote for.
BTW, its PALIN, not Palen.
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Re: US president 2008: Candidates, discussion, and the rest...

Post by icecab21 » Thu Sep 11, 2008 2:50 am

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
But, you just as well be posting to stone walls. There are people so Pacifist in this world they would not shoot a rat off their own child's throat. Makes me wonder what, they'd do if,God forbid, the enemy invaded---Probably kiss their ass&give them Sanctuary. Odds are someday we might just find out.
well what is that supposed to mean?
Is that not a something that the republicans have said about Obama? That if he gets elected the terrorists win. That if and only if McCain gets elected we can catch bin laden and be safe.

i don't care who you vote for, that was just sort of out of frustration from joe speech that crossed the line.

It’s a discussion about the political candidates, if it’s so out of line to ask opinions, then no problem.

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Re: US president 2008: Candidates, discussion, and the rest...

Post by browneyedgirl » Thu Sep 11, 2008 5:32 am

icecab21 wrote:
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
But, you just as well be posting to stone walls. There are people so Pacifist in this world they would not shoot a rat off their own child's throat. Makes me wonder what, they'd do if,God forbid, the enemy invaded---Probably kiss their ass&give them Sanctuary. Odds are someday we might just find out.
well what is that supposed to mean?
Is that not a something that the republicans have said about Obama? That if he gets elected the terrorists win. That if and only if McCain gets elected we can catch bin laden and be safe.

i don't care who you vote for, that was just sort of out of frustration from joe speech that crossed the line.

It’s a discussion about the political candidates, if it’s so out of line to ask opinions, then no problem.
Why didn't you quote miditek, he is the one who said it first. Are you a coward, icecab&just find it easier to rant on me? I merely agreed with him, and why did you get so upset about a mere opinion? Because you know its true?
I will be glad to see Bush out not just because I don't agree with his policies, but it has gotten very boring having the guy as a constant scapegoat for the world's problems. When he is out, logically there won't be anything else to complain about, will there?

The idea of "turning ones cheek" does not work in the real world especially dealing with terrorists.Their idealogy is just too deeply ingrained for them to change. Those pilots who flew those planes into the towers knew exactly what they were doing, they thought they were sending a message to USA, but they were very stupid. Their motive? WTF? Who gives a shit what their insane motive was? Those bastards tried to destroy this country's morale by pulling off that event. The USA has not, and never will pamper or coddle terrorists or their delusional, brainwashed idealogy. If anyone cannot accept that, then, fuck off! Maybe some people can accept living in a dream world where the most violent criminals can be treated like everyone else, but its not the real world. And maybe you'll find that out one day, icecab.
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Re: US president 2008: Candidates, discussion, and the rest...

Post by icecab21 » Thu Sep 11, 2008 5:47 am

Well with miditec I knew his stance already and he was saying he would rather vote in a stuffed animal than Obama for reasons both domestic and foreign policy. The original remark I made was not about letting terrorists do what they want without check, but about the notion that USA citizens can be taken and held captive without being charged by our government. Going after those that would kill us is a different matter and I think there are better methods to use than the ones that we have seen the last 8 years. I think the methods that bush uses alienate the Muslims that do not have this extremism and that this stuff is used to brainwash people into hating us.

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Re: US president 2008: Candidates, discussion, and the rest...

Post by browneyedgirl » Thu Sep 11, 2008 5:58 am

How to Win the War On Terror at Zeal For Truth
http://zealfortruth.org/2007/10/war-on- ... -reprisal/

An interesting link.
Terrorism has existed for many centuries! Its just the methods are somewhat different now&the players a bit more dangerous.
BTW, back then terrorists definitely were not coddled, or bargained with. They were thankful they were allowed to live out their days in a rat-infested dirt-floored jail cell with 1 bread&water meal a day, if that.

---------------------
Supposedly Osama's excuse of why USA is hated by Muslims:(Don't ya just love this guy?)
He is one guy that any decent, intelligent person would just love to invite to dinner. :roll:




Why do they hate us? In Osama's words, Judge for yourself:

Osama bin Laden
March 29, 1997
We declared jihad against the US government, because the US government is unjust,
criminal and tyrannical. It has committed acts that are extremely unjust, hideous and criminal whether directly or through its support of the Israeli occupation of the Prophet's Night Travel Land (Palestine). And we believe the US is directly responsible for those who were killed in Palestine, Lebanon and Iraq. The mention of the US reminds us before everything else of those innocent children who were dismembered, their heads and arms cut off in the recent explosion that took place in Qana (in Lebanon).
Due to its subordination to the Jews the arrogance and haughtiness of the US regime has reached, to the extent that they occupied the qibla of the Muslims (Arabia) who are more than a billion in the world today. For this and other acts of aggression and injustice, we have declared jihad against the US...
Today, the nation is interacting well by uniting its efforts through jihad against the US
which has in collaboration with the Israeli government led the ferocious campaign against the Islamic World in occupying the holy sites of the Muslims.
With a simple look at the US behaviors, we find that it judges the behavior of the poor
Palestinian children whose country was occupied: if they throw stones against the Israeli occupation, it says they are terrorists whereas when the Israeli pilots bombed the United Nations building in Qana, Lebanon while was full of children and women, the US stopped any plan to condemn Israel.
But I say if the American government is serious about
avoiding the explosions inside the U.S., then let it stop provoking the feelings of 1,250 million Muslims. Those hundreds of thousands who have been killed or displaced in Iraq, Palestine, Lebanon, do have brothers and relatives. They would make of Ramzi Yousef a symbol and a teacher. The U.S. will drive them to transfer the battle into the United States. Everything is made possible to protect the blood of the American citizen while the bloodshed of Muslims is allowed in every place. With this kind of behavior, the U.S. government is hurting itself, hurting Muslims and hurting the American people.
It is he (Bill Clinton) who is a terrorist who pushed their sons into this for the sake of the Israeli interest. We believe that the American army in Saudi Arabia came to separate between the Muslims and the people for not ruling in accordance with Allah's wish. They came to be in support of the Israeli forces in occupied Palestine, the land of the "Israa" of our Prophet (PBUH).


Osama bin-Laden
May 1998 interview:
Their [US troops in Saudi Arabia] presence has no meaning save one and that is to offer support to the Jews in Palestine who are in need of their Christian brothers to achieve full control over the Arab Peninsula which they intend to make an important part of the so called Greater Israel. ...
For over half a century, Muslims in Palestine have been slaughtered and assaulted and robbed of their honor and of their property. Their houses have been blasted, their crops destroyed. And the strange thing is that any act on their part to avenge themselves or to lift the injustice befalling them causes great agitation in the United Nations which hastens to call for an emergency meeting only to convict the victim and to censure the wronged and the tyrannized whose children have been killed and whose crops have been destroyed and whose farms have been pulverized. ...
And while the slogans raised by those regimes call for humanity, justice, and peace, the behavior of their governments is completely the opposite. It is not enough for their people to show pain when they see our children being killed in Israeli raids launched by American planes, nor does this serve the purpose. What they ought to do is change their governments which attack our countries. The hostility that America continues to express against the Muslim people has given rise to feelings of animosity on the part of Muslims against America and against the West in general. Those feelings of animosity have produced a change in the behavior of some crushed and subdued groups who, instead of fighting the Americans inside the Muslim countries, went on to fight them inside the United States of America itself.
The enmity between us and the Jews goes far back in time and is deep rooted. There is no question that war between the two of us is inevitable. For this reason it is not in the interest of Western governments to expose the interests of their people to all kinds of retaliation for almost nothing. It is hoped that people of those countries will initiate a positive move and force their governments not to act on behalf of other states and other sects.
The leaders in America and in other countries as well have fallen victim to Jewish Zionist blackmail.
Your position against Muslims in Palestine is despicable and disgraceful. America has no shame.
The fatwah is general (comprehensive) and it includes all those who participate in, or help the Jewish occupiers in killing Muslims.
He [Ramzi Yousef, who bombed the WTC in 93] acted with zeal to make the Americans understand that their government was attacking Muslims in order to safeguard the American-Jewish interests. ...
We are certain - with the grace of Allah - that we shall prevail over the Jews and over those fighting with them.
Our mothers and daughters and sons are slaughtered every day with the approval of America and its support. And, while America blocks the entry of weapons into Islamic countries, it provides the Israelis with a continuous supply of arms allowing them thus to kill and massacre more Muslims.
I say to them that they have put themselves at the mercy of a disloyal government, and this is most evident in Clinton's administration ... . We believe that this administration represents Israel inside America. Take the sensitive ministries such as the Ministry of Exterior and the Ministry of Defense and the CIA, you will find that the Jews have the upper hand in them. They make use of America to further their plans for the world, especially the Islamic world. American presence in the Gulf provides support to the Jews and protects their rear. And while millions of Americans are homeless and destitute and live in abject poverty, their government is busy occupying our land and building new settlements and helping Israel build new settlements in the point of departure for our Prophet's midnight journey to the seven heavens. America throws her own sons in the land of the two Holy Mosques for the sake of protecting Jewish interests. ...
The American government is leading the country towards hell. ... We say to the Americans as people and to American mothers, if they cherish their lives and if they cherish their sons, they must elect an American patriotic government that caters to their interests not the interests of the Jews. If the present injustice continues with the wave of national consciousness, it will inevitably move the battle to American soil, just as Ramzi Yousef and others have done. This is my message to the American people. I urge them to find a serious administration that acts in their interest and does not attack people and violate their honor and pilfer their wealth. ...


Osama bin Laden
October 7, 2001 statement:
Israeli tanks and tracked vehicles wreak havoc in Palestine, Jenin, Ramallah, Rafah, Beit Jala and other Islamic areas and we hear no voices raised or moves made.


Al-Quaida spokesman
October 10, 2001:
Let the United States know that with God's permission, the battle will continue to be waged on its territory until it leaves our lands, stops its support for the Jews, and lifts the unjust embargo on the Iraqi people who have lost more than one million children.


Al-Quaida spokesman
October 14, 2001:
The issue at hand is the issue of an entire nation that opposes humiliation and subservience under the yoke of US arrogance and Jewish persecution.
"Bush, in the midst of his arrogance, media frenzy, and the enduring freedom that he boasts about must not forget the video footage of Muhammad al-Durrah [a Palestinian child killed by Israeli troops in the early days of the Palestinian intifada in the Gaza Strip] and his brothers, Muslim children in Palestine and Iraq.
This truth shows that Bush is an agent of Israel and sacrifices his people and his country's economy for those and helps them occupy the Muslims' land and persecute their sons.


Osama bin-Laden
November 3, 2001
Palestinians and Iraqis: But when we move to Palestine and Iraq, there can be no bounds to what can be said. Over one million children were killed in Iraq. The killing is continuing. As for what is taking place in Palestine these days, I can only say we have no one but God to complain to. What is taking place cannot be tolerated by any nation. I do not say from the nations of the human race, but from other creatures, from the animals. They would not tolerate what is taking place. A confidant of mine told me that he saw a butcher slaughtering a camel in front of another camel. The other camel got agitated while seeing the blood coming out of the other camel. Thus, it burst out with rage and bit the hand of the man and broke it. How can the weak mothers in Palestine endure the killing of their children in front of their eyes by the unjust Jewish executioners with US support and with US aircraft and tanks? Israel and US "are one": Those who distinguish between America and Israel are the real enemies of the nation.

Osama bin Laden
November 7, 2001:
The American people should remember that they pay taxes to their government, they elect their president, their government manufactures arms and gives them to Israel and Israel uses them to massacre Palestinians. The American Congress endorses all government measures and this proves that the entire America is responsible for the atrocities perpetrated against Muslims.
The Jewish lobby has taken America and the West hostage.


Osama bin Laden
December 27, 2001
Our terrorism against the United States is blessed, aimed at repelling the oppressor so that America stops its support for Israel.

Osama bin Laden
November 2002
Our kinfolk in Palestine have been slain and severely tortured for nearly a century. If we defend our people in Palestine, the world becomes agitated and allies itself against Muslims, unjustly and falsely, under the pretense of fighting terrorism.
These actions were carried out by the zealous sons of Islam in defense of their religion and in response to the order of their God and prophet. ... What Bush, the pharaoh of this age, was doing in terms of killing our sons in Iraq, and what Israel, the United States' ally, was doing in terms of bombing houses that shelter old people, women and children with U.S.-made aircraft in Palestine were sufficient to prompt the sane among your rulers to distance themselves from this criminal gang.
If you were distressed by the deaths of your men and the men of your allies in Tunisia, Karachi, Failaka, Bali and Amman, remember our children who are killed in Palestine and Iraq everyday.


Osama bin Laden
November 24th 2002
Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple:
Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.
You attacked us in Palestine:
Palestine, which has sunk under military occupation for more than 80 years. The British handed over Palestine, with your help and your support, to the Jews, who have occupied it for more than 50 years; years overflowing with oppression, tyranny, crimes, killing, expulsion, destruction and devastation. The creation and continuation of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and you are the leaders of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel. The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its price, and pay for it heavily.
The blood pouring out of Palestine must be equally revenged. You must know that the Palestinians do not cry alone; their women are not widowed alone; their sons are not orphaned alone.
These governments have surrendered to the Jews, and handed them most of Palestine, acknowledging the existence of their state over the dismembered limbs of their own people.
Your forces occupy our countries; you spread your military bases throughout them; you corrupt our lands, and you besiege our sanctities, to protect the security of the Jews and to ensure the continuity of your pillage of our treasures.
You have supported the Jews in their idea that Jerusalem is their eternal capital, and agreed to move your embassy there. With your help and under your protection, the Israelis are planning to destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque. Under the protection of your weapons, Sharon entered the Al-Aqsa mosque, to pollute it as a preparation to capture and destroy it.
The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq. These tax dollars are given to Israel for it to continue to attack us and penetrate our lands. So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates.
Also the American army is part of the American people. It is this very same people who are shamelessly helping the Jews fight against us.
...the American people cannot be not innocent of all the crimes committed by the Americans and Jews against us.
We also call you to deal with us and interact with us on the basis of mutual interests and benefits, rather than the policies of subdual, theft and occupation, and not to continue your policy of supporting the Jews because this will result in more disasters for you.
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Re: US president 2008: Candidates, discussion, and the rest...

Post by miditek » Thu Sep 11, 2008 6:40 am

NeonVomit wrote:I don't see why you hate radical Muslims so much.
That's got to be the dumbest *&^%#$?! comment I've heard yet. So, where do we start? Munich in 1972? Entebbe? The bombing ofthe Marine barracks in Lebanon in 1982? The Achille Lauro incident? Bombings and kidnappings in Africa and the Philippines? 9/11? London? Madrid? Gaza? West Bank? Jerusalem? Islamabad? Kill all the infidels and their children as well!
NeonVomit wrote:You seem to think in exactly the same way they do.


I stand corrected. An even more ridiculous assertion. So how many Jews and Christians have I killed this week? Oh wait, please stand by while I go stone my sister because I don't like who she's married, and while we're waiting for that, let's go ahead and circumsise her so she'll be nice and pure for the homegrown execution.
NeonVomit wrote:el, then we are the losers, not them. And also, like icecab21 said, is that really the sort of attitude Jesus would have? I mean, since he's meant to be a role model for life or something... correct me if I'm wrong.
Icecab has little concept of Christ at all, but if he did, he would know that turning the other cheek is obviously intended in regards to interpersonal relationships. Jesus never said, "Hey go stick your head in the guillotine!"

Moreover, when the Prince of Peace returns, He will actually be prepared for war- for those that are familiar with the Book of Revelations. The Jews were expecting a military, rather than spiritual, Messiah during the Roman occupation- how ironic that the Second Coming will herald a very different side of Christ as He personally leads the hosts of Heaven in the final battle against the Antichrist and his minions.
Κύριε ἐλέησον

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Re: US president 2008: Candidates, discussion, and the rest...

Post by icecab21 » Thu Sep 11, 2008 7:21 am

I never said turn the other cheek to be killed. I said that we need to use methods that disable and work, and not use methods that create hate and don’t work to get information necessary to save lives. Both sides use that the other side has killed each others families as part of their reasons. Jesus’ words on the cross amounted to forgive them father for they know not what they do. Now how much should the USA standards be lowered to combate terrorists? We must ask ourselves if we are using the most effective means of disenabling terrorists and creating friends out of those that do not hate us yet. Are there statistics that show that the most effective way to get information out of a fundamentalist Muslim is to strip them down and pile them in orgy like fashion and take pictures of it?


What about the Jewish terrorism against the Muslims? Is it just one side that commits crime?

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Re: US president 2008: Candidates, discussion, and the rest...

Post by icecab21 » Thu Sep 11, 2008 9:05 am

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Articles/11Myths.htm

Stuff like this would have been better to just stick to their reasoning instead of calling stuff fallacy and then repeating it as a defense. This kind of stuff is used by every side and I guess it will be about who acts first and with the most resources in an eternal fight where everyone fights for freedom. Different paths to the same goal are here. We all want that picture wear our families can be friends and where power hungry people don't rip us apart with their need to control. A lot of this is an information war and I think that is important to combating terrorism as well as using force to disable those that would kill for their image of god and to quench their thirst for power. The objective is to use effective methods to combat these ideologies and not methods that push the middle away from us. For me, I have yet to see how comments like that letter that beg posted from whoever that was does the trick of bringing people together to fight the common enemy of extremism from whoever.

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Re: US president 2008: Candidates, discussion, and the rest...

Post by NeonVomit » Thu Sep 11, 2008 9:07 am

miditek wrote:
NeonVomit wrote:I don't see why you hate radical Muslims so much.
That's got to be the dumbest *&^%#$?! comment I've heard yet. So, where do we start? Munich in 1972? Entebbe? The bombing ofthe Marine barracks in Lebanon in 1982? The Achille Lauro incident? Bombings and kidnappings in Africa and the Philippines? 9/11? London? Madrid? Gaza? West Bank? Jerusalem? Islamabad? Kill all the infidels and their children as well!
NeonVomit wrote:You seem to think in exactly the same way they do.


I stand corrected. An even more ridiculous assertion. So how many Jews and Christians have I killed this week? Oh wait, please stand by while I go stone my sister because I don't like who she's married, and while we're waiting for that, let's go ahead and circumsise her so she'll be nice and pure for the homegrown execution.
NeonVomit wrote:el, then we are the losers, not them. And also, like icecab21 said, is that really the sort of attitude Jesus would have? I mean, since he's meant to be a role model for life or something... correct me if I'm wrong.
Icecab has little concept of Christ at all, but if he did, he would know that turning the other cheek is obviously intended in regards to interpersonal relationships. Jesus never said, "Hey go stick your head in the guillotine!"

Moreover, when the Prince of Peace returns, He will actually be prepared for war- for those that are familiar with the Book of Revelations. The Jews were expecting a military, rather than spiritual, Messiah during the Roman occupation- how ironic that the Second Coming will herald a very different side of Christ as He personally leads the hosts of Heaven in the final battle against the Antichrist and his minions.
:lol: :lol: :lol: why so serious?

I was just trying to point out the irony of you advocating the exact methods they use, and not even necessarily against them. Killing people on sight with no trial? I mean, come on.
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Re: US president 2008: Candidates, discussion, and the rest...

Post by NeonVomit » Thu Sep 11, 2008 9:10 am

browneyedgirl wrote:How to Win the War On Terror at Zeal For Truth
http://zealfortruth.org/2007/10/war-on- ... -reprisal/

An interesting link.
Terrorism has existed for many centuries! Its just the methods are somewhat different now&the players a bit more dangerous.
BTW, back then terrorists definitely were not coddled, or bargained with. They were thankful they were allowed to live out their days in a rat-infested dirt-floored jail cell with 1 bread&water meal a day, if that.
I'm sure the members of November 17, Baader-Meinhoff and ETA who are quietly rotting in jail cells are thinking the same thing ;) They weren't really bargined with.
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Re: US president 2008: Candidates, discussion, and the rest...

Post by icecab21 » Thu Sep 11, 2008 9:40 am

now part of this whole thing was about people being captured and then never charged with crimes after years of imprisionment.

http://www.theagitator.com/2008/01/08/i ... uantanamo/

my point was that for that to be ok that makes it ok for the usa to grab anyone they want and put them in a jail outside of the country and then not charge them of crimes

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Re: US president 2008: Candidates, discussion, and the rest...

Post by AAAAAAAAAA » Thu Sep 11, 2008 7:34 pm

I was just trying to point out the irony of you advocating the exact methods they use, and not even necessarily against them.
I also think its sick that we eat Kebabs...the very same grilled meat consumed in many terror-sponsoring nations :shock:
Killing people on sight with no trial? I mean, come on.
What do you expect us to do, bring Judge Judy to the battlefield? :lol:

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Re: US president 2008: Candidates, discussion, and the rest...

Post by NeonVomit » Thu Sep 11, 2008 7:36 pm

AAAAAAAAAA wrote:
I was just trying to point out the irony of you advocating the exact methods they use, and not even necessarily against them.
I also think its sick that we eat Kebabs...the very same grilled meat those terrorists eat.
Kebabs weren't liked to a system of justice last time I checked ;)
Killing people on sight with no trial? I mean, come on.
What do you expect us to do, bring Judge Judy to the battlefield? :lol:
Obviously not the battlefield, just some previous comments made about suspected drug traffickers.
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Re: US president 2008: Candidates, discussion, and the rest...

Post by icecab21 » Thu Sep 11, 2008 8:12 pm

what percentage of guilty would be good in your book? if half the people captured are released after waiting 5 years for a trial or released after 5 years without even having a trial, does that sound like a good percentage?

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Re: US president 2008: Candidates, discussion, and the rest...

Post by miditek » Sat Sep 13, 2008 5:02 pm

Krauthammer roasts Obongo-

Selected quips from one of my favorite commentators:

Obama’s Descent to Earth
It’s hard to maintain a celestial conceit for four years — even if you believe it yourself.

By Charles Krauthammer


Krauthammer:" The Democrats are in a panic. In a presidential race that is impossible to lose, they are behind. Obama devotees are frantically giving advice. Tom Friedman tells him to “start slamming down some phones.” Camille Paglia suggests, “be boring!” "

Miditek: That's right my friend- it looks like Palin has just pulled an Obama on Obama! He's all smoke and no mirrors!


Krauthammer: " Meanwhile, a posse of Democratic lawyers, mainstream reporters, lefty bloggers, and various other Obamaphiles are scouring the vast tundra of Alaska for something, anything, to bring down Sarah Palin: her daughter’s pregnancy, her ex-brother-in-law problem, her $60 per diem, and now her religion. (CNN reports — news flash! — that she apparently has never spoken in tongues.) :lol: Not since Henry II asked if no one would rid him of his turbulent priest, have so many so urgently volunteered for duty."

Miditek: "Tell me about, Charlie. The very same feminazis that are complaining the Palin could not be a good VP with five kids at home somehow give House Speaker Pelosi a pass, and guess what? She has five children as well! The last time I checked, Sarah Palin is still married to husband Todd Palin, and one would think that dad could probably help with the child rearing, eh?"

Krauthammer: "The unease at the Denver convention, the feeling of buyer’s remorse, was the Democrats’ realization that the arc of Obama’s celebrity had peaked — and had now entered a period of its steepest decline. That Palin could so instantly steal the celebrity spotlight is a reflection of that decline.
It was inevitable. Obama had managed to stay aloft for four full years. But no one can levitate forever :lol:
."

Miditek: "And it's all downhill now for this eloquent idiot that never even ran a hotdog stand, met a payroll, or has any business (or military) background whatsoever! If the democrats were running a female VP it would have instantly been hailed as 'historic' by the MSM- while they conveniently forgot the true historic fact that Geraldine Ferraro was Walter Mondale's running mate in an unsuccessful attempt to unseat President Ronald Reagan in 1984."

Miditek: "I don't feel any pity for the democrats- just a bit of (pre)victorious scorn for the Obama worshippers and Hiltlaryites. There is simply no way that this Mulatto (yes- in the real world- not the one that the Left pretends to exist- mulatto kids get dogged at school by black and white alike! Let's not sweep that fact under the rug! This guy does have a white mother- after all!) stooge and tool of the left will ever be president. You'll see."
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Re: US president 2008: Candidates, discussion, and the rest...

Post by icecab21 » Sat Sep 13, 2008 8:09 pm

that's one of the huge problems in politics. both sides pick these canidates with issues in their past that have not gone with the flow of their campaing. the democrats need to be strict and have people shut up about some of this stuff. it's better jsut to point out double standards and how no matter who they chose there will be a words to rip it. it's a horrible stratigy when people stray from policy because then they will just be taken the wrong way and the people will turn a blind eye.

lets take palin's daughter's pregnency. when the spears child keds pregment, her parents are pinheads and to blame. when palin's get gets pregnent. its a family ishue and they are together and strong and making the best out of this blessing of a child. If this is the huge conservatives have family values ishue, then why not a even score?

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People that help get people back on their feet, let’s slam that and not count it as anything. bravo bravo. Helping people get close to god and family and become contributers to the community is really worthless after all.

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Re: US president 2008: Candidates, discussion, and the rest...

Post by miditek » Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:19 pm

icecab21 wrote:lets take palin's daughter's pregnancy. when the spears child kids pregnant, her parents are pinheads and to blame.
Let's examine that then- at seventeen years old, Palin's daughter is nearly grown. I think that she will most definitely have to grow up much faster now that a child is on the way, and let's make no mistake about it- this will not be an easy time for her or the little bastard that knocked her up- if he's even still around.
icecab21 wrote:when palin's get gets pregnant. its a family issue and they are together and strong and making the best out of this blessing of a child. If this is the huge conservatives have family values issue, then why not a even score?
One thing that I can read into this is that the left celebrates nearly every living/social arrangement except for the traditional family. Many kids that live in today's America have never even known what it's like to come home to a home with a mom and dad and brothers and sisters all under the same roof.

Many Liberals and their MSM counterparts despise the family structure, and I can assure you that the lack of- or at least the significant decline thereof, is one of the most grave threats that American society faces today. Current government policy as well as family law (i.e, govt policy of food stamps and public housing, and i.e. family law- the dad gets shafted in divorce court) all but ensures that these trends will continue.

In divorce court for instance, there is a widely accepted provision that "the wife must be supported in a lifestyle that she has become accustomed to" and that is positively one of the worst laws and legal precedents that I can think of. The wife/mom could be a drunken, drug-addled promiscuous whore and would still be 'entitled' to the lifestyle that 'she has become accustomed to'- which essentially means that she gets to keep the big house and fancy cars, while the dad gets to pay for all of it, and he gets to move into a one room studio apartment- and there is very little- if any, legal protection.

Want to keep 'the lifestyle'? Then stay married. Husband is an asshole? Too bad. She probably picked the husband more for the 'lifestyle' that he could provide much more so than out of love anyway. So economic realities must be taken into account prior to any decision being made to proceed with divorce and before the judge signs the final decree.

No two divorce cases, of course are exactly alike and there are always numerous exceptions to any rule of thumb or cliche', but I've seen many, many dads (including my own) get taken to the cleaners because the wife/mom simply did not love the father/husband anymore, but yet, wanted to keep that lifestyle at all costs.

To make matters worse, fathers frequently get saddled with huge amounts of child support- which on paper is not a bad thing, but the law frequently does not specify that there should be any sort of general accounting of 'where the money is going'- as it is supposed to go to the 'benefit' of the children- even if in reality, it does not. Money gets spent on designer clothes, expensive maintenance for the expensive car, and other frivolities, and then the ex-wife will then complain that the dad does too little- (and this is on top of having to carry health insurance for the kids- which typically costs $12,000 to $15,000 per year and up for a family policy, and then there are deductibles, co-pays, and other out-of-pocket expenses) and asks dear old dad for still more money while decrying him as the "sperm donor" whenever the kids, her parents, or friends are within earshot.

If someone wants to have a baby out of wedlock, then that's their business. However, if they have their hand stuck out expecting welfare checks, food stamps, Medicare, public schools and public housing from me (the taxpayer)- and they don't want to work and lay around drinking and doing drugs all day, then it becomes my problem too. Take away the goodies and giveaways, and you'll definitely see illegitimacy rates plummet. They are at their current levels because there is a financial incentive for nitwits like Palin's daughter as well as Jamie Lynn Spears to have kids when they are essentially still kids themselves.

icecab21 wrote:People that help get people back on their feet, let’s slam that and not count it as anything. bravo bravo. Helping people get close to god and family and become contributers to the community is really worthless after all.
People have to want to get close to God, and they need to accept help when it is offered- whether there are preconditions attached to the help or not. For instance, if someone wants to stay in a battered wife shelter or at the Salvation army, then they need to leave their drugs and alcohol outside where it belongs. We don't need people like that bringing those kinds of problems inside of what is a sanctuary that other people are trying to utilize to escape the torment of alcoholism, drug addiction, and it's usual byproduct- domestic abuse.

Showing tough love often works a lot more than simply giving someone a check and a slap on the wrist with a promise to "do better someday". When there is little or no accountability, there will be little or no progress, in fact, it will be nothing but regression, of that you can be certain, my friend.
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Re: US president 2008: Candidates, discussion, and the rest...

Post by NeonVomit » Sun Sep 14, 2008 12:22 am

Do you think sex education is important in schools? After all, it is people's health we're talking about.
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Re: US president 2008: Candidates, discussion, and the rest...

Post by miditek » Sun Sep 14, 2008 1:15 am

NeonVomit wrote:Do you think sex education is important in schools? After all, it is people's health we're talking about.
If the current curriculum of sex education being taught in today's schools is such a resounding success, then why are pregnancy and STD infections still at such high levels with American's youth- much higher, in fact, than during the "Golden Age" of America back in the 1950's, etc. before there was such a thing as sex ed in schools? Teenage pregnancy in those days typically meant that the girl was usually ostracized by the community, and then shipped off to a distant town to live in a home or a convent for unwed mothers.

The social stigma was so great, and the price to be paid was so high (separation from family, friends, and boyfriend, typically being forced to give up the child for adoption, and little or no chance for government assistance of any type) that it made many potential young mothers think twice before hopping into the backseat with some other young person.

We had the same types of classes when I was in secondary (high) school, and to be quite honest, the courses were so dull, prefabricated, and stupid (and not to mention not being able to concentrate due to a class full of 'Beavis and Butthead' type idiots heckling the teacher) it is no small wonder that very few, if any, of my classmates learned anything at all about sex. Case in point, one of my former classmates was already a grandmother at the age of thirty-two!

Sex ed frequently focuses on how to avoid the natural penalties and responsibility (such as unwanted pregnancy and STD's via contraceptives) for being, well, irresponsible about sex in general, and relationships in particular.

Truly effective sex education would also include at least a chapter on abstinence, which when practiced, has been medically proven to be 100% effective 100% of the time. Another chapter could also be dedicated to dealing with the sheer idiocy of peer pressure, in addition to a 'how-to' guide to decode today's mainstream media propaganda that sex outside of marriage is something heroic, cool, the thing to do, etc. and so on.

Guest speakers, such as young wnwed mothers and their burger-flipping "baby daddies" could then be brought in to describe the wondrous utopia that they have made for themselves- either living with mom or dad, or in some rat-hole apartment after mom and dad put their feet down, and booted both of them out of the nest and out into the real world.

They could extol the virtues of changing diapers, applying for public assistance, hand-washing dishes,wondering if the lights/water/telephone service will be cut off today (or whether an eviction notice will be served by the sheriff's department), sleepless nights, countless trips to the doctor with a sick and crying baby, living off of bologna sandwiches and either (your choice) of Beenie Weenies or Vienna Sausages mixed with macaroni, and washing it all down with a cup of peach Kool-Aid; and overall just how rosy that future actually looks. Also, after "burger-flipping daddy" gets off of work, he often will not be found at home assisting "baby mama" with actually taking care of the baby. That's what a responsible guy would do, but who's to say that this punk is responsible?

He's probably out blowing his paycheck on beer and weed, and hanging out with his friends, and looking for the next young piece of ass to chase, while "baby mama" is sitting at home (instead of in class) wondering what the fuck she ever saw in "burger-flipping baby daddy" to begin with.

Freshmen students would probably not be surprised to discover during their sophomore or junior sex ed classes, that the same "burger-flipping baby daddy" had left the first "baby mama" (as well as the baby itself) for greener pastures, which usually means knocking up yet another unsuspecting teen mom to be. Lather. Rinse. Repeat.

For those that refuse to read the writing on the wall, we could of course explain what contraceptives are, and how they work, but that they are neither 100% effective at preventing pregnancy nor STD's any more than said contraceptives will help the young parents to escape their responsibility. That's where indulgent (and equally irresponsible) grandparents come in, but that's another chapter for the senior class in sex ed.

Extra credit could be given for those that have the nerve to sit through a lecture by a young male or female HIV patient- as they learn about the cocktails of pharmaceuticals that they have to take in order to even remain alive. I can recall a conversation earlier this year with My ex-girlfriend regarding what a slut her eldest daughter's friend was (both are cheerleaders at their local high school) and that the friend was sleeping with everyone- and of course, with pervert Grandpa's permission- he would let all of her boyfriends essentially stay over at their house on the weekend.

And at fifteen years old, this kid was recently diagnosed with a particularly nasty case of HSV-II (genital herpes)- and we all know how quickly bad news can spread around at school- almost as fast as the diseases themselves, so from a social standpoint, this poor kid may as well be a modern-day leper.

In a nutshell, there's a lot more at stake than people's health- families, lives, souls, and a whole lot more are at risk.
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Re: US president 2008: Candidates, discussion, and the rest...

Post by icecab21 » Sun Sep 14, 2008 2:53 am

Now it’s been proven that people are more effective with assistance from others. Part of the CO's job is to help people that want help find private solutions and not go to welfare programs or jails. The programs are very much about having a family with mother, father and neighbors for support and education. Helping people become independent is a way to have smooth transitions to better communities. The more productive people in a community the better it gets the more values that get held in it. Finding the most local and private business solutions are important and it's crazy to see how much lobbies and federal government have taken out the ability for consensual trade and meaningful solutions.

Every bill seems to be a game of how one party can put in earmarks or change the wording to fuck up the bill. Both McCain and Obama have sponsored bills that afterwards have been so screwed up that they could not vote yes for it. Another part of the bill is the name game of using a positive name and putting a horrible earmark that when the earmark gets voted down the positive name also gets voted down.

I think the use of terms conservative and liberal are such double edged swords. So much of liberals are A, if you don’t support A, you are not a liberal. For some reason the person will then state A as being something like “abortion is a fun leisure activity and great method of birth control”. That’s something mind blowingly horrible that on such an extreme that it’s such a big insult to the more centered ideas on the subject. The other side of that would be “conservatives believe in A, A being that even after being raped by a relative and with a small percentage that the woman and baby will live, she cannot have an abortion to save her life”.

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Re: US president 2008: Candidates, discussion, and the rest...

Post by NeonVomit » Sun Sep 14, 2008 10:55 am

So basically you mean to say 'abstinence is the only way and that is what should be taught'?
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Re: US president 2008: Candidates, discussion, and the rest...

Post by browneyedgirl » Sun Sep 14, 2008 12:21 pm

Case in point, one of my former classmates was already a grandmother at the age of thirty-two!
So was Loretta Lynn, and she did OK! :buh:


BTW, back on-topic. From all the talk going around it seems Obama may be losing some of his "fad" status. :( I have heard some folks say that by the time the election gets here, he will be lucky to get votes even from his own race! The black side, I mean. Of course, talk is cheap. Some are saying Obama&his popularity was just a ploy to knock Hillary out of the race, now that he has done his intended job, he is now fair game himself. Lets hope Obama can stand up to the punches yet to come, because I think there are going to be some doozies headed his way. :(
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Re: US president 2008: Candidates, discussion, and the rest...

Post by miditek » Sun Sep 14, 2008 4:48 pm

NeonVomit wrote:So basically you mean to say 'abstinence is the only way and that is what should be taught'?
That's not what I said. I indicated that abstinence is the only 100% effective method of birth control and disease prevention, and that these kids should be educated on the consequences of not heeding those warnings. Contraceptives don't always work, and even then, lots of people don't bother to use them if they are drunk or high.

There's another angle to this as well- there was an eighteen year old kid (a guy) from Knoxville (TN) that was having sex with one of his schoolteachers, and he ended up getting his brains blown out by an angry husband. The husband was charged with murder one (premeditated, which is a capital offense) although due to the circumstances (a legal term, known as the heat of passion) he was convicted of man two- or manslaughter in the second degree, which carries an average sentencing penalty of three to four years as opposed to the death sentence or life in prison.

The moral to this story? Don't screw another man's wife- as that could most certainly get you killed.
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Re: US president 2008: Candidates, discussion, and the rest...

Post by icecab21 » Sun Sep 14, 2008 5:13 pm

Last night I watched a civil service forum where Obama and McCain both had an hour to answer questions in a forum setting. Both candidates were a lot more middle than the talk show hosts would have you believe, but I guess they will just say it's a ploy of false words. I think its bullshit to represent these candidates plans so differently from what the candidates have. Obama clearly talks of less central bureaucracy and red tape in his plans yet the little talk show hosts call it all barackcracy mind socialism to some even call it communism. I have not seen a focus on central planning and power in his campaign. McCain of course in the interview talks of his much better ideas than bush and yet the Republican Party chooses bush over McCain 8 years ago. In the interview McCain also shows why a bunch of the further right hates him as he answered questions supporting using multiple methods of civilian and military methods to counter ill feelings and ignorance’s towards the USA.

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Re: US president 2008: Candidates, discussion, and the rest...

Post by Carcass » Sun Sep 14, 2008 7:52 pm

miditek wrote:The moral to this story? Don't screw another man's wife- as that could most certainly get you killed.
Or, don't blow heads off of kids that your wife screws. :wink:

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Re: US president 2008: Candidates, discussion, and the rest...

Post by NeonVomit » Sun Sep 14, 2008 7:54 pm

miditek wrote:
NeonVomit wrote:So basically you mean to say 'abstinence is the only way and that is what should be taught'?
That's not what I said. I indicated that abstinence is the only 100% effective method of birth control and disease prevention, and that these kids should be educated on the consequences of not heeding those warnings. Contraceptives don't always work, and even then, lots of people don't bother to use them if they are drunk or high.

There's another angle to this as well- there was an eighteen year old kid (a guy) from Knoxville (TN) that was having sex with one of his schoolteachers, and he ended up getting his brains blown out by an angry husband. The husband was charged with murder one (premeditated, which is a capital offense) although due to the circumstances (a legal term, known as the heat of passion) he was convicted of man two- or manslaughter in the second degree, which carries an average sentencing penalty of three to four years as opposed to the death sentence or life in prison.

The moral to this story? Don't screw another man's wife- as that could most certainly get you killed.
Er, I don't remember the last time someone killed someone else for screwing their wife here, but anyway.

That doesn't fall under 'sex ed' territory, that falls under 'common sense' territory.
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