IRAN'S Nuclear Capability

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Is Iran's nuclear capability a concern?

Hell Yes--it might cause WWIII!!!
11
23%
Somewhat
8
17%
Not at this point--just watch&see!
9
19%
None at all--Ever!
6
13%
The World should just mind its own damn business!!!
13
28%
 
Total votes: 47

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Re: IRAN'S Nuclear Capability

Post by miditek » Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:46 pm

browneyedgirl wrote:http://en.rian.ru/world/20071016/84155674.stm

Aggressors?
Lots of interesting links from this article, saying several nations are joining together to "protect" itself against aggressors. ;)
Putin has lots of weapons to sell, and if it causes the US some headaches in the process, then that is an added bonus for him.

BTW, the front page of the New York Times had a nice photo of Gog & Magog (umm, sorry Putin and Ahmanutjob) on the front cover today. Who knows where this will end- we may end up having to fight Turkey and Iran simultaneously. On the bright side, at least, that should make for a target-rich environment.

Putin and Ahmandinejad will continue to push their luck, of course, until their luck eventually runs out.
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Re: IRAN'S Nuclear Capability

Post by Carcass » Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:51 pm

No way the US is going to fight Turkey. I can bet my ass on it.

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Re: IRAN'S Nuclear Capability

Post by miditek » Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:23 pm

Carcass wrote:No way the US is going to fight Turkey. I can bet my ass on it.
I'm really not sure how all of this will turn out, but if the Turks cross the border and it makes the current situation worse, then let's say I would not want to be a Turk armored or infantry soldier and get caught out in the open by a swarm of Apache gunships or A-10 Warthogs. It's a bit too early to tell exactly how this one will play out. I would assume that in the not too distant future that the entire region will be in flames.

The democrats in Congress have certainly not helped the situation with their oh so conveniently timed resolution about the Armenian genocide. Coincidental? I think not. Pelosi is a traitor, and should be shot on sight. Congress is overstepping its own political boundaries- in order to fracture alliances, and as such, anyone that continues to do this must be branded as an enemy of the state and dealt with accordingly.
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Re: IRAN'S Nuclear Capability

Post by browneyedgirl » Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:11 pm

War Games, but not the movie!

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php? ... a&aid=7098

Russia gives warnings!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/iran/story/0,,2171856,00.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/iran/story/0% ... %2C00.html


Btw, Oil went up again. $89.00&rising.

In about 10 years Europe supposedly will have a pipeline running from Turkey&will not have to depend so much on Russia for its gas, etc.
TEN YEARS
Anything can happen in 10 years.
I'm still saying that possibly when the chips are down, Russia might blackmail Europe using that oil&gas supply.
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Re: IRAN'S Nuclear Capability

Post by Carcass » Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:31 pm

miditek wrote:
Carcass wrote:No way the US is going to fight Turkey. I can bet my ass on it.
I'm really not sure how all of this will turn out, but if the Turks cross the border and it makes the current situation worse, then let's say I would not want to be a Turk armored or infantry soldier and get caught out in the open by a swarm of Apache gunships or A-10 Warthogs. It's a bit too early to tell exactly how this one will play out. I would assume that in the not too distant future that the entire region will be in flames.

The democrats in Congress have certainly not helped the situation with their oh so conveniently timed resolution about the Armenian genocide. Coincidental? I think not. Pelosi is a traitor, and should be shot on sight. Congress is overstepping its own political boundaries- in order to fracture alliances, and as such, anyone that continues to do this must be branded as an enemy of the state and dealt with accordingly.
Despite everything, the Turkish-American relations are quite close. Both countries are NATO members, member states waging war against eachother is unthinkable. The US has a major air base on Turkish soil, I don't think the US would like to jeopardise that.

And besides, how can the US tell Turkey not to attack PKK considering that the US administration invaded Iraq on the same ground?

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Re: IRAN'S Nuclear Capability

Post by miditek » Thu Oct 18, 2007 1:23 am

Carcass wrote:
miditek wrote:
Carcass wrote:No way the US is going to fight Turkey. I can bet my ass on it.
I'm really not sure how all of this will turn out, but if the Turks cross the border and it makes the current situation worse, then let's say I would not want to be a Turk armored or infantry soldier and get caught out in the open by a swarm of Apache gunships or A-10 Warthogs. It's a bit too early to tell exactly how this one will play out. I would assume that in the not too distant future that the entire region will be in flames.

The democrats in Congress have certainly not helped the situation with their oh so conveniently timed resolution about the Armenian genocide. Coincidental? I think not. Pelosi is a traitor, and should be shot on sight. Congress is overstepping its own political boundaries- in order to fracture alliances, and as such, anyone that continues to do this must be branded as an enemy of the state and dealt with accordingly.
Despite everything, the Turkish-American relations are quite close. Both countries are NATO members, member states waging war against each other is unthinkable. The US has a major air base on Turkish soil, I don't think the US would like to jeopardise that.

And besides, how can the US tell Turkey not to attack PKK considering that the US administration invaded Iraq on the same ground?
There is little doubt that this is making an already complex situation even more complicated. I agree that the NATO membership of both states would seem to make war more unlikely than if the US and Turkey were not allies. One thing that the US should consider is how to rein in the Kurds- they already have autonomy in the north of Iraq, as well as certainly some oil wealth. I realize that the Kurds have long dreamed of their own state, but antagonizing the Turks is certainly not the best way to going about it.
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Re: IRAN'S Nuclear Capability

Post by NeonVomit » Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:59 am

I'm really not sure how all of this will turn out, but if the Turks cross the border and it makes the current situation worse, then let's say I would not want to be a Turk armored or infantry soldier and get caught out in the open by a swarm of Apache gunships or A-10 Warthogs.
The Turkish army is not exactly an easy target. We're talking one of the world's largest land armies here. Highly trained and very well equipped. Any country would do well to carefully think twice about engaging the Turkish armed forces.
It's a bit too early to tell exactly how this one will play out. I would assume that in the not too distant future that the entire region will be in flames.
Well of course, that fits in well with your Armageddon beliefs.
miditek wrote: The democrats in Congress have certainly not helped the situation with their oh so conveniently timed resolution about the Armenian genocide. Coincidental? I think not. Pelosi is a traitor, and should be shot on sight. Congress is overstepping its own political boundaries- in order to fracture alliances, and as such, anyone that continues to do this must be branded as an enemy of the state and dealt with accordingly.
Not saying anything about the Armenian genocide is hypocritial. Germany came to terms with what occurred in WWII. Turkey has been in denial about it and refuses to accept what happened. Great, a US ally is guilty of genocide and won't admit it! The principle of the matter cannot be disputed. 'We don't want to offend Turkey' says Bush, and the next day infuriates the US' biggest trading partner by meeting the Dalai Lama. Em, what?

Turkey has no right not to be offended.

As for the rest of what you said, that attitude would fit in very well with Nazi Germany or the USSR.

You live in a democracy. Deal with it.
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Re: IRAN'S Nuclear Capability

Post by NeonVomit » Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:02 am

Carcass wrote: And besides, how can the US tell Turkey not to attack PKK considering that the US administration invaded Iraq on the same ground?
A very similar situation to the Israel - Hezbollah conflict last summer. The US was silent on that issue. Turkey will expect the same treatment.

Because the PKK are recognised as a terrorist organisation by the USA and EU. Problem is, they have the support of the majority of Kurds. Who gave valuable help during the war against Saddam.

Quite a sticky situation.
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Re: IRAN'S Nuclear Capability

Post by miditek » Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:48 pm

I'm really not sure how all of this will turn out, but if the Turks cross the border and it makes the current situation worse, then let's say I would not want to be a Turk armored or infantry soldier and get caught out in the open by a swarm of Apache gunships or A-10 Warthogs.
NeonVomit wrote:The Turkish army is not exactly an easy target. We're talking one of the world's largest land armies here. Highly trained and very well equipped. Any country would do well to carefully think twice about engaging the Turkish armed forces.


No conventional army in the world poses any overwhelming threat to U.S. forces. Take a look at Saddam's Pre GWI army- it was also one of the biggest in the world. The "Highway of Death" (which spanned about one hundred miles itself) front cover of Time magazine showed how one of the largest armies in the world was annihilated (100,000+ KIA) in less than five days. That was nearly twenty years ago-

The same thing would happen to the Turks if war actually broke out, but I don't think that war with them is imminent or even likely at this point. The U.S. and Turkey actually need each other, as we have common foes/competitors, such as Russia and Iran. I still think that Turkey provides a degree of security and stability to the region much more so than Iran, Iraq, or Saudi Arabia ever could.

It's a bit too early to tell exactly how this one will play out. I would assume that in the not too distant future that the entire region will be in flames.
NeonVomit wrote:Well of course, that fits in well with your Armageddon beliefs.
I actually believe what the Bible teaches- that Armageddon is the Last Act. A lot of really bad things are supposed to happen prior to that- such as the War of Gog and Magog- now that event, where Russia and Persia lead a confederation of states to attack Israel, is much closer and far more likely than ever to happen.

Just look at how friendly Uncle Vlad, Assad the Younger, and Ahtmadlunatic are these days. Russia is doing everything she possibly can these days to egg Iran on with "it's okay, Uncle Vladimir Vladimirovich will help you deal with the Yanks." At what point in modern history has Russia not been making trouble for the U.S. and its interests, and please pray tell who could please spell that history lesson out for the current president?
miditek wrote:The democrats in Congress have certainly not helped the situation with their oh so conveniently timed resolution about the Armenian genocide. Coincidental? I think not. Pelosi is a traitor, and should be shot on sight. Congress is overstepping its own political boundaries- in order to fracture alliances, and as such, anyone that continues to do this must be branded as an enemy of the state and dealt with accordingly.
NeonVomit wrote:Not saying anything about the Armenian genocide is hypocritical. Germany came to terms with what occurred in WWII. Turkey has been in denial about it and refuses to accept what happened. Great, a US ally is guilty of genocide and won't admit it! The principle of the matter cannot be disputed. 'We don't want to offend Turkey' says Bush, and the next day infuriates the US' biggest trading partner by meeting the Dalai Lama. Em, what?
Well, if something is to be said, since Turkey is applying for membership to the EU, then where are the EU or the UN when we need them? They are probably just getting unpacked from moving to/from Brussels this month, and are already packing up to move back to Strasbourg next month. Sounds like too much moving back and forth and around if you ask me.

Turkey is both a political as well as military ally of the US, as well as other NATO nations. China is neither to the US, although we maintain diplomatic relations, of course. I also think that they have forgotten that they certainly benefited from US military assistance, since they certainly were not strong enough (at the time) to have beaten the Japanese and kicked them out of their own country. If you look at what happened in places such as Nanking- it is easy to see what type of plans that Tojo had for China- similar to what Hitler had in mind for Russia. Some fucking thanks we get.
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Re: IRAN'S Nuclear Capability

Post by browneyedgirl » Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:29 am

One tidbit I need to insert here: Russia&India are becoming very chummy too, in that they are discussing nuclear stuff together. This, is making Pakistan very nervous, to say the least!

I need to get a link for that info because it was interesting.
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Re: IRAN'S Nuclear Capability

Post by NeonVomit » Tue Oct 23, 2007 8:43 am

What? Russia and Putin are leading a confederation to attack Israel? Ok, that is pretty funny. If this is a holy war, then why is an overwhelmingly Christian country allying with Islamic nations? To what aim? What could Russia possibly gain out of the destruction of Israel?

Why are you trying to fit everything into what you believe will happen rather than maybe accepting that things might go another way? The approach you're taking is rather like firing an arrow into a wall, and then painting a target around it.
miditek wrote: Turkey is both a political as well as military ally of the US, as well as other NATO nations. China is neither to the US, although we maintain diplomatic relations, of course. I also think that they have forgotten that they certainly benefited from US military assistance, since they certainly were not strong enough (at the time) to have beaten the Japanese and kicked them out of their own country. If you look at what happened in places such as Nanking- it is easy to see what type of plans that Tojo had for China- similar to what Hitler had in mind for Russia. Some fucking thanks we get.
I think just calling them 'diplomatic relations' is a bit shallow. Over half of the consumer products in your house are probably made in China, most likely along with the screen you're reading this on and the keyboard you'll type your reply on. What's the amount of trade between China and the US? I hazard a guess in the realm of 'an awful lot'. China benefits from the cash, US companies benefit from cheap products and labour, which is why so many have moved production over there.

Imagine China turns a good half of their industrial capacity to military production, and raises its own army past the 3,000,000 they already have (which already makes them by far the largest army in the world). Not a pretty thought, is it. As Mao said, 'Who cares if we lose 400 million people in a nuclear war? We'll have another 400 million left.' Also, last I checked, they had nuclear weapons and the capability to launch stuff into space...

China is certainly not a country to mess with. Hence the lack of action on North Korea and Burma, it's their sphere of influence.

And it was the British army under General William Slim who forced the Japanese out of mainland Asia. The US provided some logistical and engineering support, but it was a British campaign. Read up on him, possibly the greatest military commander to ever live.

And yes, Turkey is applying for EU membership. They'd better start behaving like Europeans then. I cite again the example of Germany, which has come to terms with what occurred, acknowledged it and moved on. Would it be so bad for Turkey to apologise? Even calling it a genocide in Turkey will land you in jail (along with an awful lot of other things). Somewhere, something isn't right. Again, the principle of the issue cannot be disputed.

Besides, isn't it the US who's been calling loudest for them to keep out of northern Iraq? Wouldn't this help you're talking about come from them? European countries for the most part have kept out of this situation, it has little to do with them.

What do the EU and the UN have to do with this particular issue at all anyway? Neither have said anything about it. You're just trying to somehow blame something (what, exactly, I don't know) on your usual scapegoats.
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Re: IRAN'S Nuclear Capability

Post by browneyedgirl » Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:06 pm

:roll: X 1000

Oh, for God's sake(no pun intended) Miditek is not the only person in the world who believes(with evidence) that historical events are playing out EXACTLY the way Biblical prophecy is stating. The Bible is not just a book of moral advice, fables, paradies, and biographies, the Bible is a book of past, present&future history as well. Common sense says the prophecies in the Bible are unfolding slowly, but surely.

BTW, isn't China's goods going all over the WORLD, not just USA? ??? And, yes, China IS something to worry about because they will become part of this Gog-Magog alliance.
In the future, IMO, USA is going to regret placing so much confidence in the Chinese manufacturing sector. Matter of fact, if China ever becomes seriously pissed at USA they easily could yank the rug right out from under the USA economically speaking in terms of the import-export business.
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Re: IRAN'S Nuclear Capability

Post by miditek » Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:16 pm

NeonVomit wrote:What? Russia and Putin are leading a confederation to attack Israel? Ok, that is pretty funny. If this is a holy war, then why is an overwhelmingly Christian country allying with Islamic nations? To what aim? What could Russia possibly gain out of the destruction of Israel?
Putin, of course, is not mentioned in the Bible- but Russia (Rosh) most definitely is. There is nothing funny about it, and as I am sure that you are well aware, the bulk of the military hardware that is owned by the enemies of Israel are of Russian design and origin, along with some Chinese products as well. In fact, there is enough Russian military hardware and munitions already in the Middle East to where an invasion would really not be a problem.

Russia had threatened military intervention several times during the Arab-Israeli wars of the 20th century- the most recent of which was probably the 1973 Yom Kippur War.

Russia continues to supply rogue states such as Iran and Syria with updated air defense systems, and Iran recently purchased up to Qty 250 Su-27 interceptors.
The bulk of Arab armor and artillery in the Middle East is also of Russian design.

While there are Christians that live in Russia, it is far from what I would consider to be a Christian nation. There were 500 years of the Romanov dynasty, 75 years of the Communists, and now Russia has morphed into a strange sort of capitalistic kleptocracy with a healthy dose of traditional authoritarianism from the Kremlin. The prophet Ezekiel wrote that Russia would be drawn into the War of Gog and Magog "with hooks in her mouth", which implies that while Russia would make war with Israel only after some reluctance, it will eventually turn on her at the behest and insistence of Israel's traditional enemies.

The question also remains, if Russia were such a good friend of Israel, then why is she arming her enemies, and also helping Iran to build nuclear weapons? I find most people's lack of ability to connect the dots here to be nothing less than amazing.
NeonVomit wrote:Why are you trying to fit everything into what you believe will happen rather than maybe accepting that things might go another way? The approach you're taking is rather like firing an arrow into a wall, and then painting a target around it.
2 billion Christians believe that the end times will result due to the Arab-Israeli conflict. And guess what? So do one billion Muslims. That's one out of every two people on the planet that not only believe in the end times, but are also quite well aware of how, where, and why it will occur. I have no personal need to "shape events" as it were, as that responsibility lies solely with God- it's a theological concept that is known as Divine Providence.

And for what it's worth, the War of Gog and Magog is supposed to serve not as the End itself, but as a warning to the enemies of Israel, and to show that that God is still running the show. It is also intended to show the world that God really is real, and that there is still some time for people to turn their lives around. Given the fact that we live in the Information Age, the entire (connected, at least) world will see Gog and Magog on the television.

More on this and the rest of your post a bit later....
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Re: IRAN'S Nuclear Capability

Post by NeonVomit » Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:46 am

That's all very interesting, but I simply don't believe in it. You speak for all 2 billion Christians and 1 billion Muslims? That all of them believe the same things you do on this issue? That's a bit of a stretch, I think, if not arrogant. Kind of like you claimed that all Muslims in the world want to kill infidels...

No amount of attempting to point out 'evidence' will convince me because citing the Bible as a source is, for me, like finding future prophecies in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory (which in fact has more meaning to me than the bible). I simply cannot take seriously something that claims the world was created in a week, a couple of thousand years ago, or that some guy died and came back to life, or that someone lived to the age of 800. Not in the literal sense, anyway. I just think it's a fairytale that got out of hand.

I respect your beliefs but I simply do not see things the same way. I don't think there will be some massive end-times war. I don't believe there will be any Gog-Magog alliance against Israel. Israel is, to me, a small strip of land which has some cool hangouts and pretty scenery. It just isn't anything special, other than its strategic location in the world. And you know what? People were saying exactly the same thing as you are now on the eve of World War II. We're still here though. And mankind apparently didn't learn its lesson.

And I do find it worrying that you seem to be hoping for and excited by the idea of millions upon millions of people dying.

Mankind will not die out in a brilliant flash of 'glory' or whatever you want to call it. Mankind will die a long, slow, painful death over centuries as nature reacts to the damage inflicted upon the planet by us.
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Re: IRAN'S Nuclear Capability

Post by NeonVomit » Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:58 am

browneyedgirl wrote::roll: X 1000

Oh, for God's sake(no pun intended) Miditek is not the only person in the world who believes(with evidence) that historical events are playing out EXACTLY the way Biblical prophecy is stating. The Bible is not just a book of moral advice, fables, paradies, and biographies, the Bible is a book of past, present&future history as well. Common sense says the prophecies in the Bible are unfolding slowly, but surely.
Common sense? The same common sense that made people fly planes into the WTC? They were acting under a belief just as solid as yours. This common sense of which you speak relies on the bible being true, just as theirs relied on the Koran being true (the Koran being the most rambling, self-contradictory and exasperating thing I've ever read; the bible isn't far behind). I dunno.

Why does everything have to rely on a book written thousands of years ago by who knows who, edited and re-edited by those who would gain advantage from it and from which you get a hundred different meanings from the same passage? The Koran was passed around by word of mouth for a good long while before it was written. Something tells me that the version we have today is very, very different from the one Mohammed first spoke of (which perhaps explains the contradictiory nature).

And why does everyone in the world have to convert to Christianity? Why the threat of eternal damnation because you believe something else? 'Believe in me! or else...' religions are the bane of this world.

What I believe is that people's religious beliefs have been used as a tool for political ends for centuries now. Religion doesn't use politics, it is the other way around. It is used by leaders to convince their peoples to follow their plans. Simply tack on a religious meanings, and there you go, instant support.

Give that some thought.
BTW, isn't China's goods going all over the WORLD, not just USA? ??? And, yes, China IS something to worry about because they will become part of this Gog-Magog alliance.
In the future, IMO, USA is going to regret placing so much confidence in the Chinese manufacturing sector. Matter of fact, if China ever becomes seriously pissed at USA they easily could yank the rug right out from under the USA economically speaking in terms of the import-export business.
As I've said I have no belief in Gog-Magog. China is an atheist country, and those who do have religious beliefs are Bhuddists there. Israel has precisely zero significance or meaning to them. But I agree with the rest of this, which is why I see it as bizzare how Bush was worried about offending Turkey, but didn't give a second thought to pissing China off...

The new world order will have China and India as the predominant world superpowers. USA, Russia and the EU will be second-league to them. Start choosing your sides, people.
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Re: IRAN'S Nuclear Capability

Post by browneyedgirl » Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:18 am

For the millionth time, :roll: I don't see ANYONE happy about a possible Armegeddon involving millions of people, or several nations. Where does anyone come up with such utter nonsense that people are happy about a possible War to end all Wars/the Mother of Destruction? If anything, its the opposite. Its going to be a very Woeful time.
And about the past talking of prophetic events, people have always predicted the end of the world, but at NO TIME in history of mankind has all the ingredients for such an incident been as obvious as right now. Up until the nuclear bomb, mankind had not been able to destroy himself. Mankind has that ability now, and those bombs used in Japan, as horrible as they were, are childs play compared with the hydogen bombs contained within ICBMs nowadays. Every weapon that has ever been invented has been used against people during war. Someday the H-Bomb will be used too, and its not a good thought. Its a horrible one. Thats why I make it a practice to fucking enjoy life to the fullest&I advise everyone to do the same. :?
BTW, tons of atheists who do not believe in a God, or the Bible, also think the end is near, so it's not a religious thing, but a common sense one. It has to do with historical events that are happening as we speak.

And nobody HAS to convert to anything, Christian or otherwise, Personally, I don't give a shit. I don't care. But, God does care.

Yes, politics does use religion in some cases&that has happened since the beginning of time. But that reflects on the character of the person/people who does that.
People do not have to be religious to use a twisted belief. Society twists shit on its own without any religious influence.
And, it goes without saying hypocrites abound under the cloak of Christianity. I did a Sociological Experiment in college&proved that point. ;) Lets just say I lost faith in everything for a while, based on the obvious findings. Actually, Christians&unChristians are more alike than different, epecially the males, so that can explain why many people become disillusioned about religion.
People into religion are just humans. Period. And if anyone expects anything more than that, they will be disappointed. Money can be the root of evil, like fame&popularity, so these things can all be used to gain influence. So can religion. Its human nature. However, this next Presidential campaign is going to show that nobody is perfect. The Christian republicans don't know who to back to use their agenda this time around.

Anyway, I have some links about Gog&Magog, if anyone is interested.
Its like historical&geographical stuff. Quite interesting actually.

http://www.prophecyupdate.com/gog_and_m ... tified.htm
http://www.prophecyupdate.com/their_allies.htm
http://www.prophecyupdate.com/the_sword_of_allah.htm
http://www.prophecyupdate.com/the_invasion.htm

I have a feeling miditek is going to be the only person open-minded enough to read them anyway. :D
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Re: IRAN'S Nuclear Capability

Post by NeonVomit » Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:03 am

I read them, being quite open-minded as I am. I did not find them convincing, I found them very biased and again, anything using the bible as a reliable source for anything simply is not convincing to me at all. Whoever wrote it absolutely fervently believes in it, and seemed to be trying very hard to fit current events into their vision, rather than shaping their vision around current events. There is no discussion, weighing of evidence for and against. I found the whole site read a bit like someone interpreting a horoscope, or doing the 'painting a target around an arrow' thing I mentioned earlier on. And their quite blatant racism made it painful to read at points (calling Muslim practises during the hajj 'pagan rituals' for example... funny, when Christmas itself is nothing but pagan rituals dressed up with Jesus) and took away much of its (limited) credibility. And there's an awful lot of broken links on it.

In order to believe any of what that website claims, you need to have faith in the bible and God. I have no faith in either, so it was pretty much a futile exercise in my case.

If someone could point me to some evidence which does not use the Bible, then I would be glad to take it more seriously. The heart of the issue is, I do not take the Bible any more seriously than I do Homer's epic poems. A good read with much wisdom, but perhaps not the best idea to believe literally.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that issue.

And I don't think we needed this year's presidential campaign to prove noone is perfect! I think that was well-proved last time around.

Again, I dont see it as a 'common sense' issue. Everyone thought the end was nigh during the Cuban Missile Crisis, nothing happened there. In fact, the doomclock was closer to 'midnight' there than any other time in history, even than now.

And again, what exactly does anyone have to gain from a nuclear war apart from fulfilling some prophecy? "Ahmedinijad is a religious fanatic and wants to end the world" argument doesn't hold water. He is not in control of Iran, and even if he was, they don't possess nuclear weapons yet. Okay, let's say they have indeed made a handful of warheads. How exactly will they deliver them? They have enough range to maybe hit Israel, and that's a stretch. As for hitting the US, forget about that. So maybe they'll sell weapons or give them to an organisation to sneak them into Israel or the US?

The thing is, Iran is not stupid enough to sell weapons to anybody. Within six hours of a nuclear detonation on US or Israeli soil, it will be known where that device came from. Thirty minutes later, that nation will cease to be a viable habitat for multicellular life. Identifying the source maufacturer for detonated fissile material is a science with a history that dtaes back to 1948, when data was collected from fallout from the Little Joe device via spyplane. Iran knows this. Ahmadenijad knows this. So the man isn't about to authorize the sale or donation of complete or armed weapon systems to anybody... besides, he doesn't even have the power to. He is not in control of Iran. And again, the tired "they're religious fanatics, they'll do anything!" argument fails to hold water. They'll destroy what, a city? Maybe irradiate a large area of (what is to them as well) a holy land? When compared to having their entire nation reduced to a glass field, I don't think they'll see it as a reasonable exchange.

Thinking that they DO approach things in this manner is dangerous. They are very politically savvy and underestimating them in this way is not good.

Russia? Why the hell would they want to incite a nuclear war? Putin is very crafty and underhanded, but I don't think he's some maniac who wants to destroy the world... anyone who makes that claim would have to be willing to accept that GWB is possibly equally maniacal (albeit far less intelligent). Besides, Russia is reaping the benefits of trade due to higher energy prices. Same could be said for China (who arguably have the least to lose) what could they gain from a war? They have too much to gain economically from the West.

So by saying 'it says so in the bible!' I am not convinced, firstly because I see the source as terribly flawed and unreliable, secondly because I find the interpretation of the source to be unconvincing. China and Russia have absolutely no interest in Israel at all. So joining in an alliance against a strip of rocky desert thousands and thousands of miles away that holds no resources of any use to them, that would put them against their biggest sources of cash simply makes no political sense.
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Re: IRAN'S Nuclear Capability

Post by browneyedgirl » Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:41 pm

Oh, one more thing. About the "importance" of that strip of land called Israel. Its not really Israel, but that whole general area which is loosely called, "The Holy Land". Several nations&religions have fought over control of this area for thousands of years. Especially the Christians&Muslims.
In the movie, "Kingdom of Heaven" this feud is summed up quite nicely when the character Balin asks Saladin, "What does Jerusalem really mean to you?" First, Saladin replies,"Nothing". Then, smiles&says,"Everything!"
Just a movie(loosely based on true events), yes, but that is exactly how the differing forces/religions feel.
That whole area is like a spiritual symbol for both Christianity&Islam, and other religions as well. Its where Jesus taught&died for his faith. Its where Jews worship&hold sacred their faith. Its the promised land. Its where the Dome of the Rock is located. Etc. Its not just Israel, but the whole area that is held to be sacred, in a sense.
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Re: IRAN'S Nuclear Capability

Post by browneyedgirl » Sat Oct 27, 2007 1:50 pm

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Re: IRAN'S Nuclear Capability

Post by NeonVomit » Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:01 pm

Iran is also offering help to Turkey about the PKK. This keeps getting better and better!
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Re: IRAN'S Nuclear Capability

Post by miditek » Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:56 pm

The Coming U.S.-Russian Train Wreck - Is Israel Caught in the Middle?
jcpa

Another major victory for (Shi'ite) messianics

jpost
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Re: IRAN'S Nuclear Capability

Post by NeonVomit » Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:59 pm

Why do you always use Israeli-based sources? That would be like me looking to Greek Cypriot newspapers for balanced reporting on progress of the Cyprus issue-just ain't possible.
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Re: IRAN'S Nuclear Capability

Post by browneyedgirl » Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:18 am

miditek wrote: The Coming U.S.-Russian Train Wreck - Is Israel Caught in the Middle?
jcpa

Another major victory for (Shi'ite) messianics

jpost
@miditek, those are some good sources. I'm going to have to extend my research beyond BBC&CNN! ;)

Duh, I guess miditek used Israeli sources because :err: he is discussing Israel after all. I don't suppose he'd get balanced reporting about Israeli goings-on from, say, a Finnish news source for example, considering everything. :?
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Re: IRAN'S Nuclear Capability

Post by NeonVomit » Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:39 am

I'm just saying that it's usually pretty difficult to find unbiased sources in that way. Just because one happens to agree with them doesn't make them unbiased. I cite my own situation as an example - I hardly ever bother reading local papers for information on our situation, it's usually all hyper-nationalistic revisionist trash.
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Re: IRAN'S Nuclear Capability

Post by miditek » Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:21 pm

NeonVomit wrote:Why do you always use Israeli-based sources? That would be like me looking to Greek Cypriot newspapers for balanced reporting on progress of the Cyprus issue-just ain't possible.
Well, there's always Pravda! :D Besides, I'm an American, not an Israeli... :)
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Re: IRAN'S Nuclear Capability

Post by miditek » Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:34 pm

Image :lol: Sad, but true....
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Re: IRAN'S Nuclear Capability

Post by NeonVomit » Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:28 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WLoasfOLpQ

Now the world needs more people like this lady. Outstanding.

But of course you won't like anything she says because she is secular, and its from Al Jazeera! So it must be lies and evil Islamic propaganda, right? Even though you've never watched it but it just has to be...
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Re: IRAN'S Nuclear Capability

Post by miditek » Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:08 am

NeonVomit wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WLoasfOLpQ

Now the world needs more people like this lady. Outstanding.

But of course you won't like anything she says because she is secular, and its from Al Jazeera! So it must be lies and evil Islamic propaganda, right? Even though you've never watched it but it just has to be...
I watched most of her clip, and she is, of course, intelligent and has a lot of common sense. Unfortunately, she is delusional if she thinks that this is not a religious war. One does not need to believe in Allah in order to be killed by one or more of his minions. Based on my own personal theological/eschatological research (which spans many years), I suspect that their is a strong possibility that the Shi'ite messiah is actually the Antichrist.

How many other conflicts (other than the Arab-Israeli one) are there that span several millennia- and also never have been resolved? All other wars eventually end, and traditional enemies have become friends- take a look at Germany and France, and the United States and Japan, for instance.
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Re: IRAN'S Nuclear Capability

Post by Carcass » Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:05 am

In my opinion you are simplifying history. Are you aware of the fact that Jews were widely tolerated (albeit not without conflicts, but wherever there are minorities, conflicts exist, today as yesterday) in Muslim lands in the past. One good example is al-Andalus ("Muslim Spain"). The funny thing is, that it was the Catholic Monarchs who expelled the Jews (and Moors too later on, which proved to be economically a bad move). In fact some sources tell that Jews even welcomed the Moorish invaders to Iberia and some captured towns were left in the hands of Jews or mixed armies of Jews and Muslims. Another example is the Ottoman Empire, where a lot of expelled Jews fled. Many Jews chose Middle East or North Africa instead of the Christian Europe. Now, why is that?

One could also say that Christian hate towards Jews has equally long roots, if not longer since Christianity is about 600 years older than Islam.

What I want to say is that there is not a continuos conflict between Muslims and Jews. A confrontation can be traced, but it can be traced between Christians and Jews too.

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Re: IRAN'S Nuclear Capability

Post by NeonVomit » Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:48 am

miditek, are you aware for quite how long Germans and French had been at each other before WWII? And before that, the English and the French? Everyone didn't just become friends overnight. And that was within Europe, where people are pretty much the same and belonged to the same religion, pretty much.

I feel it is far more a clash of cultures than one of religion. Because religion is just a tool for politics, and has always been. Islam is still an immature religion, in that sense.

And remember, this whole mess is because two sides both believe they have God on their side.

And if the Jews are God's chosen people, then why will they all go to hell for not accepting Jesus Christ? Nice move, God.

Unless, of course, Jews have retained their identity not through the religion, but because of the culture...

I think Wafa Sultan hit the nail right on the head. Islam sees things in a medieval way (look at Afghanistan under the Taleban; not like it's much better now but anyway) while the rest of the world is moving on into the future. If this carries on much longer, Islam along with many other religions will simply become irrelevant. Without such a harsh religion, how will leaders be able to control their people? What authority would the House of Saud have, or the Ayatollah of Iran?

The thing is, Christianity has evolved and adapted, and is still relevant (inasmuch as any religion can be relevant in the 21st century) and practised in developed countries. I don't see why Islam can't follow the same path.

But in many cases, different religions mean different cultures. Which is what we're seeing now.
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