They did it again...

[NeonVomit]

I know that the whole world condemns what happened, but all this condemnation is based on the hatred towards Israel, hatred that based on the antisemitism.

No it's not. We're not in the 19-20th century any more, that line doesn't work in this day and age. People just don't hate Jews like they did in the past. Sorry if this bursts your bubble but stuff like that really doesn't have a place anywhere amongst a modern, enlightened civilised society (unless you're in that town in Tennessee or wherever that Borat visited) and it really isn't a reason. The criticism is based solely on the actions of the state of Israel. (Oh, and by the way, my grandfather on my mother's side was a German Jew and most of his family was murdered at Dachau. So, uh, yeah, I kinda have sympathy for Jewish people, seeing as they form part of my heratige).

What other country would have agreed to daily bombings of its citizens? What other country would have agreed to allow others to arm their enemies (and breaking the blockade will result exactly in that)? What would your governments do in such cases?

Uhh... yeah, I guess nobody can ever know that, because that sort of thing never ever happens in Iraq or Afghanistan or S Korea or Pakistan or Nepal or China or Russia or Colombia or Mexico or Turkey or Sri Lanka or Spain or Brazil or Jamaica or India. You're the only country in the world ever who has to deal with that kind of thing, right?

I really don't understand this hatred and condemnations of everything we do to protect ourselves. I understand that to average European all that happens here must look surreal and morally wrong and the stronger side is usually the one who gets blamed for everything that happens to the weaker side, but is it so difficult to look a bit beyond what's being shown on CNN and BBC?

People do look beyond that.

It's just that maybe, just maybe, and I know this is a crazy thought, but maybe the situation for civilians (you know, people who aren't crazy psychopathic mass murderers who want to just get on with their lives and look after their families, you might know some people like that) in Gaza is so ridiculously bad that it might drive many of them to desperate acts and perhaps provide an excuse for terrorists (you know, people who ARE crazy psychopathic mass murderers who want to just kill other people based on loose ideals and questionable ethics, you might know some people like that too) to carry out attacks on who they see as their oppresors?

I understand there's a bit of an issue there regarding certain factions who seem to think blowing other people up is a good and Holy thing to do (hey, if you believe in it, it's fact right? You said so yourself, remember?) but forcing everyone who's trapped in there to suffer along with them isn't going to solve anything.

[NeonVomit]

Yeah, Netanyahu is more a Maradona than a Mourinho when it comes to managing stuff

That is a scarily accurate comparison, if you think about it... a hero when serving his country, not so great when put in charge, eh?

[miditek]

I know that the whole world condemns what happened, but all this condemnation is based on the hatred towards Israel, hatred that based on the antisemitism.

No it's not. We're not in the 19-20th century any more, that line doesn't work in this day and age. People just don't hate Jews like they did in the past. Sorry if this bursts your bubble but stuff like that really doesn't have a place anywhere amongst a modern, enlightened civilised society (unless you're in that town in Tennessee or wherever that Borat visited) and it really isn't a reason.

"Borat" visited a much larger town, this was in Birmingham, AL, and the actor that potrayed him was actually quite rude when he handed a true Southern lady a bag of feces while he was a guest in their home. You wouldn't have laughed if he had taken advantage of. let's say, your parent's hospitality now, would you? He duped those people, but as long as that puts some more smug in the gas tank of your Pious, then you get better mileage, your farts smell sweeter than ever, and you also get to keep that feeling "more noble, enlightened, and superior than thou", flame burning even brighter!

And saying there is no anti-semitism behind this conflict is a complete exercise in ignorance.

Uhh... yeah, I guess nobody can ever know that, because that sort of thing never ever happens in Iraq or Afghanistan or S Korea or Pakistan or Nepal or China or Russia or Colombia or Mexico or Turkey or Sri Lanka or Spain or Brazil or Jamaica or India. You're the only country in the world ever who has to deal with that kind of thing, right?

I think the actual point here is not that terror bombings and atrocities don't go on in those countries, but that the rest of the world doesn't bitch, complain, and have staged riots when the cops and the military go after the bad guys. Only when the US or Israel get engaged with the enemy, do we see these prepared, prefabricated condemnations from the "International Community". St. Pancake was the patron saint for of that very type of activity.

It's just that maybe, just maybe, and I know this is a crazy thought, but maybe the situation for civilians (you know, people who aren't crazy psychopathic mass murderers who want to just get on with their lives and look after their families, you might know some people like that) in Gaza is so ridiculously bad that it might drive many of them to desperate acts and perhaps provide an excuse for terrorists (you know, people who ARE crazy psychopathic mass murderers who want to just kill other people based on loose ideals and questionable ethics, you might know some people like that too) to carry out attacks on who they see as their oppresors?

These "victims" are multi-generational extras on the world propaganda stage, and it is Saudi, Iranian, and other funds, as well as orders from the imams to kill Jews that guarantee that they are kept in squalor and live in fear of IDF reprisals. Stop attacking Israel, and the economy starts to get better. No more Apaches or F-16's flying overhead.

I understand there's a bit of an issue there regarding certain factions who seem to think blowing other people up is a good and Holy thing to do (hey, if you believe in it, it's fact right? You said so yourself, remember?) but forcing everyone who's trapped in there to suffer along with them isn't going to solve anything.

I've said it once, and I'll say it again, because it is worth repeating. These people are pawns in a much larger and more complex game that is being played. So we see the descendants of Danzigers or East Prussians waging terror campaigns against the Poles in this day and age? No, we don't.

[NeonVomit]

And saying there is no anti-semitism behind this conflict is a complete exercise in ignorance.

Aren't Jews going to go to hell anyway? Why are you so concerned about them?

As for everything else:

[NeverendingAbyss]

But didn't Jews create heaven?

[Rebel]

I would join in on this riveting debate, but I think that would require me to agree with Miditek, seeing as I think the rest of this forum is atheist/agnostic/anti-Christian, and that would just feel weird.

[NeonVomit]

Never mind. I just got home from a Slayer gig and my mind is not entirely here so it's all good!

[browneyedgirl]

Or the fact that Christ spent three days (after the Crucifixion) in Hell preaching to lost souls before the Great Flood - as told in 1 Peter 3?

I like your definition of a fact. I never knew something that could not be proven in any way whatsoever and has absolutely no evidence supporting it could be considered a fact!

The rest of your post almost gave me eye cancer, so what robocop656 said.

If your faith is strong enough, everything from the relevant holy book is a fact
Anyway, apart from the Christianity stuff and the colorful language, miditek writes pretty good posts.

+5 AMEN! At least his posts are grouded in reality. What is, as opposed to what we want to see. Sure, it would be great if all the world's peoples could unite and there would be total harmony. But, with things the way they are, I don't think its possible.



This is really Gaza? Good Lord. The produce looks better and more abundant than at ALDI or Kroger!

[robocop656]

miditek reminds me of my mom

[robocop656]

At least his posts are grounded in reality.

Faith! Believing in something without evidence. Absence of evidence means evidence in absence. Yee haww!!!!

[browneyedgirl]

I was referring to miditek's posts about the Flotilla situation.

As to anti-semitism, if you read alot of these conspiracy sites, most of them sling shit about Jews every single day. If these blogs and websites are doing this sort of thing just for "show" I do not think its one bit funny. Because many gullible people do take this type propaganda seriously. There are still LOTS of Jew haters in this world, and not just folks deemed ignorant and backward.

[NeverendingAbyss]

There are still LOTS of Jew haters in this world, and not just folks deemed ignorant and backward.

BUT WHYYY MOMMMYYYY?!!

But no, really. Why?

I is in srs thinkin heer. I needs moar Samuel Adams.

[robocop656]

religion is pathetic

[Bathory Killcraft]

Seems like Gaza is the perfect place to be - according to that pic. Heaven on Earth. Why don't you all go there for a holiday?

The world is and will be against Israel for as long as they keep killing 1 to 10 ratio Palestinians and adhere to no international law whatsoever. It's the brutality and the disproportionate use of force - especially from a people that has been repeatedly subject to - that shocks the world and shapes this overwhelmingly negative opinion. You can't have Merkavas and F15Is against molotov cocktails and handmade rocket launchers and expect much support or sympathy.

Same thing happens elsewhere true, but hadn't there be no oil and vital US interests at stake in the area I say you'd be completely on your own.

Antisemitism exists - undoubtedly. But the world isn't pro-arab either. If anything, the West is suspicious of the muslim world at best, fearful at worst.

Also, midi, the girl the IDF bulldozed had a name and is now dead. A good Christian should know better than defaming her with all this St.Pancake bs. Whatever she was, at least respect the fact that she's dead.

[Shurik]

The world is and will be against Israel for as long as they keep killing 1 to 10 ratio Palestinians and adhere to no international law whatsoever. It's the brutality and the disproportionate use of force - especially from a people that has been repeatedly subject to - that shocks the world and shapes this overwhelmingly negative opinion. You can't have Merkavas and F15Is against molotov cocktails and handmade rocket launchers and expect much support or sympathy.

Here's another crazy thought - don't throw molotov coctails, don't launch rockets at kindergardes and don't kill people in buses and then you won't see Merkavas and F15s.
What do you propose - to stop fighting Hamas and such? Israel, as a sovereign state, has a full right to defend its citizens from those sorts of attacks, with whatever force necessary.
Your map forgot to mention several things - the partition plan called for 2 states, and the arab population chose to go to war and lost most of the land. From 1949 to 1967 Gaza belonged to Egypt and West Bank to Jordan, who chose not to help the civilian population there, but to use it to attack Israel, again and again until those lands were lost. Here's one more crazy thought - had arab population accepted the partition plan, we probably could live in peace now.

[JensJohansson]

Here's another crazy thought - don't throw molotov coctails, don't launch rockets at kindergardes and don't kill people in buses and then you won't see Merkavas and F15s.

The killings, as sad as they were, are probably what many were wishing for. The extremists on both sides are the ones who seem to have the initiative, and are furthering the developments in some sort of strange symbiosis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007%E2%80 ... er_opening

As of Jun 1, there seems to be a promise that the border Gaza-Egypt well be open. That is, I assume from this that there will be no effective blockade of the Gaza strip anymore. A bit like when the Berlin wall was in place but the border between East Germany and Czech Republic, and the Czech republic and the rest of Europe, were open. You obviously don't cross to the west where there's a big wall, you just go around the wall.

Clearly this was a direct result of the attack on the aid flotilla. I'm amazed Israel fell into what in retrospect seems like a simple trap, but they did and they have to deal with it.

Whatever happens next are (as usual) developments which are shaped by the more extreme factions on both sides.

I add that personally I am not sure if the blockade in that form was justified and/or wise. But if all I have is a knife or an iron pipe, I'm definitely not gonna get on a boat and argue that point with someone who is armed to the teeth. That's close to suicide. Some of the participants apparently stated before the trip that they looked forward to become martyrs. If the blockade ends permanently, it appears they achieved their goal, not only on a personal level of martyrhood, but also on a strategic level.

[NeonVomit]

Pretty much. I don't think they were going into this ignorant of what would happen. Israel played it straight into their hands.

Also, let's remember the issue here:

Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country ... There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? They may perhaps forget in one or two generations' time, but for the moment there is no chance. So it is simple: we have to stay strong and maintain a powerful army.

[Shurik]

Egyptians open the Rafiah crossing from time to time, it's nothing new. The real traffic between Egypt and Gaza goes through a hundreds of smuggling tunnels anyway.

I'm amazed Israel fell into what in retrospect seems like a simple trap, but they did and they have to deal with it.

This flotilla case could've ended with two possible outcomes - either let them pass and effectively end the blockade and the next ships would've carried weapons instead of food or stop them and be accused of starving the Gaza population (which is a lie, but the world believes it anyway). In the end it was the second, with an addition to 9 dead "peace activists".
I don't know which one of those scenarios is worse in the long term, but both are bad and the trap was opened the moment this flotilla sailed ...

And another thing - if Hamas worries so much about the civilian population of Gaza, they probably should not steal the humanitarian aid. This is from the same wiki article Jens quoted, one paragraph above.

[NeonVomit]

There were more than 2 options of dealing with this situation.

And another thing - if Hamas worries so much about the civilian population of Gaza, they probably should not steal the humanitarian aid. This is from the same wiki article Jens quoted, one paragraph above.

Where did I say I had any support or sympathy for Hamas? Where did anyone here say anything like that? Please do find and quote where I've said anything of that nature. I said I can understand how certain situations can drive people to extreme acts, but it's never justified, be that extreme act blowing up innocent people in a cafe or killing civilians on a boat.

Disagreeing with the methods used by the IDF in this incident doesn't automatically mean someone supports Hamas, please try to grasp this concept. After all, they're the blow-people-up-because-they-believe-it's-the-right-thing-to-do bunch (but it's a fact because they believe in it, right? Right?) but if the Israeli government wants to lower themselves to that level, then what can we do. Other countries employ some heavy handed tactics when dealing with such situations, and do take significant amounts of criticism for it. But I guess you never hear about any of those because anything that doesn't relate to Israel probably doesn't make the news there... I don't know about you but believe me, when people protest and get angry about what Turkey does, I do hear all about it.

And do you seriously believe that the humanitarian situation in Gaza is acceptable? Or everything is just fine and people are upset for no reason?

And believe me, I've been having the exact opposite of this conversation with people who blindly condemn everything Israel does. I really am not taking sides on this one.

[Shurik]

Where did I say I had any support or sympathy for Hamas? Where did anyone here say anything like that? Please do find and quote where I've said anything of that nature. I said I can understand how certain situations can drive people to extreme acts, but it's never justified, be that extreme act blowing up innocent people in a cafe or killing civilians on a boat.

I have never accused you of that, certainly not in the sentence you've quoted. Sorry if that's what you've understood from it ...

but it's a fact because they believe in it, right? Right?

That was a joke, for gods sake. Bad one, apparently.

But I guess you never hear about any of those because anything that doesn't relate to Israel probably doesn't make the news there...

In internet age it doesn't really matter what TV stations are showing. I'm not watching TV at all, by the way. All that I need I can find on the internet. I certainly know about other countries doing things like we do, but the only case where there was a worldwide protest on the level of the recent events is when USA invaded Iraq, at least in the last 10 years or so. And I don't think that comparing the actions IDF takes to protect the Israeli citizens and the actions that are taken in Iraq or Afghanistan (few thousand miles from USA, Britain and such) is a right thing to do ...

And do you seriously believe that the humanitarian situation in Gaza is acceptable? Or everything is just fine and people are upset for no reason?

Acceptable - probably not, but who's to blame? Anyway, it's very far from the "biggest prison in the world", "concentration camp worse than Auschwitz" or some other descriptions you can hear in the media ...

[NeonVomit]

In internet age it doesn't really matter what TV stations are showing. I'm not watching TV at all, by the way. All that I need I can find on the internet. I certainly know about other countries doing things like we do, but the only case where there was a worldwide protest on the level of the recent events is when USA invaded Iraq, at least in the last 10 years or so. And I don't think that comparing the actions IDF takes to protect the Israeli citizens and the actions that are taken in Iraq or Afghanistan (few thousand miles from USA, Britain and such) is a right thing to do

See, that's the thing. Israel (last time I checked, anyway) is a properly functioning democratic state that actually abides by principles such as the rule of law, separation of powers, executive accountability, that sort of stuff, right? So putting Israel's actions in contrast with places like Turkey (who as we know hardly has a shining track record) Russia (don't get me started) and China (ditto) kind of doesn't really work.

By actually following such things as the Universal Declaration of the Rights of Man, countries therefore have a higher standard of behaviour they're expected to adhere to. That's why people got more angry at the US invasion of Iraq than Russia's invasion of Georgia (not exactly comparable but you get my drift). That's why people made more of a fuss about the UK's involvement in the whole Kosovo thing (I remember that pretty well, I'm sure you do too, in fact our drummer played a protest show on one of the key bridges of Belgrade one night) than comparable actions in other parts of the world.

People do protest and criticise other countries you know. You'll pay more attention to the ones aimed at your own country, and that's totally understandable.

Turkish PM Recep Tayyip Erdogan said he did not view Hamas, which runs Gaza, as a terrorist organisation.

...aaaaand scene. I would so dearly love for Hamas to have some sort of links with the PKK. That would make this whole thing even more sweetly ironic.

[NeonVomit]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/f ... 722641.stm

Really interesting opinion piece by Jonathan Head about Turkey's situation in all this.

[miditek]

International "media" hard at work shaping "World Opinion" for the "International Community"



A side of the "humanitarian crisis" in Gaza that most don't ever see!

[NeonVomit]

[Rebel]

it sounds to me like someone decided to fuck with Isreal, and now they're going to learn their lesson, this has happened countless times in the last 60 years or so, nothing to see here folks... move along.

[browneyedgirl]

I have to ask this: why isn't the 5 ships that WERE allowed passage being mentioned? Because there is no drama in it? No smartass activists on board stirring up shit?
And, yes, from the looks of it, it seems Israel did fall into a "trap". A "test" and the scheming activists made sure of it. It WAS a setup on the activists part. Actions speak louder than words.

[NeonVomit]

I have to ask this: why isn't the 5 ships that WERE allowed passage being mentioned? Because there is no drama in it? No smartass activists on board stirring up shit?

None of the ships were allowed passage. All were taken to Ashdod.

And, yes, from the looks of it, it seems Israel did fall into a "trap". A "test" and the scheming activists made sure of it. It WAS a setup on the activists part. Actions speak louder than words.

And what I've been saying all along is that they dealt with it badly.

[browneyedgirl]

I have to ask this: why isn't the 5 ships that WERE allowed passage being mentioned? Because there is no drama in it? No smartass activists on board stirring up shit?

None of the ships were allowed passage. All were taken to Ashdod.

And, yes, from the looks of it, it seems Israel did fall into a "trap". A "test" and the scheming activists made sure of it. It WAS a setup on the activists part. Actions speak louder than words.

And what I've been saying all along is that they dealt with it badly.

Yep, just lay back and let rebellious people stab ya with knives, etc. Martyrdom serves a great PR purpose, I suppose.

[Shurik]

I have to ask this: why isn't the 5 ships that WERE allowed passage being mentioned? Because there is no drama in it? No smartass activists on board stirring up shit?
And, yes, from the looks of it, it seems Israel did fall into a "trap". A "test" and the scheming activists made sure of it. It WAS a setup on the activists part. Actions speak louder than words.

None were allowed to pass, but there was no resistance on those 5 ships, they surrendered peacefully.
I hope that from now on, in the first sign of trouble in similar cases, the ships will be flooded with every type of crowd dispersing means available before lowering soldiers on board.

[robocop656]