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Apologies if this topic has been started up already and been erased due to the sensitivity of the subject. I guess the mods will delete this too if they feel it is too sensitive.

Tell me what the threat to Israel was this time? Why did they have to raid these ships and kill these people on international waters? Because there were some kitchen and pocket knives on them? Having said that, the "activists" on those ships looked more like troublemakers than peaceful protesters.

However, I can't see how even Israel can justify the escalation of violence and brutality against citizens this time. I can see a feud with Turkey unraveling and this is very dangerous. More worryingly though, I caught a video of Jews celebrating the killings somewhere online. Hope it's older or fake.

In the meantime, Peace Nobel Winner President Obama does not even acknowledge the killings.

I don't underestimate the dangerous environment Jews live in these days but this crosses the limit in terms of violence. I guess they who live by the sword die by the sword too.

The only thing achieved is isolation. Relations with the US are already cold and this incident will further alienate Turkey, the closest thing to a friend Israel has in the region.

I guess in the end when it comes to Israel, they are the heroes the world deserves, but not the ones it needs right now. So we'll hate them, because they can take it. For now they will remain silent guardians, watchful protectors. Dark Knights.

Tell me what the threat to Israel was this time?

The threat is an establishment of a constant unchecked weapon smuggling to the Hamas-occupied Gaza. We certainly do not need more rockets on our heads. If we let one such flotilla to pass, no matter what it carries, the next one will smuggle rockets instead of toys and medicine, it happened not once in the past. Just look for info about Karin A ship. That's why the blockade will continue as long as Hamas rules in Gaza.

Why did they have to raid these ships and kill these people on international waters?

International naval laws permit what was done, even in international waters. A quote from Wikipedia on the subject:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internatio ... .281994.29

Paragraph 67 states that it is permitted for belligerents to attack merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States outside of neutral waters if they "are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture". Paragraph 146 states that it is permitted to capture neutral merchant vessels outside neutral waters if they are engaged in any of the activities referred to in paragraph 67.[2]

San Remo Memorandum's Extent

Declaration's paragraph 60 reads as follows: [3]

The following activities may render merchant vessels military objectives:

* (a) engaging in belligerent acts on behalf of the enemy, e.g., laying mines, minesweeping, cutting undersea cables and pipelines, engaging in visit and search of neutral merchant vessels or attacking other merchant vessels;
* (b) acting as an auxiliary to an enemy's armed forces, e.g., carrying troops or replenishing warships;
* (c) being incorporated into or assisting the enemy's intelligence gathering system, e.g., engaging in reconnaissance, early warning, surveillance, or command, control and communications missions;
* (d) sailing under convoy of enemy warships or military aircraft;
* (e) refusing an order to stop or actively resisting visit, search or capture;
* (f) being armed to an extent that they could inflict damage to a warship; this excludes light individual weapons for the defence of personnel, e.g., against pirates, and purely deflective systems such as chaff; or
* (g) otherwise making an effective contribution to military action, e.g., carrying military materials.

Why kill people - the people on the ship shouldn't have attacked the soldiers if they didn't want to die. Attacking a commando soldier, even 10 people on one soldier, is a good way to kill yourself. It can clearly be seen from the videos recorded by someone who was on the ship and the videos released by the IDF that the soldiers that got to the ship where lynched and some of them survived by miracle, being overpowered by tens of terrorists and thrown head down from ~10m height. Some of the soldiers were stabbed. The fire was opened only when one or two soldiers were critically wounded in the lynch.
All of this is a soldiers' version which is proven by the videos from the ship. If the army wanted to kill as many people as possible, as the other side claims, Israeli warships could have just sunk the ships. There was no such violence on other 5 ships, only on the Turkish one, where around 100 people were trained to fight the soldiers as soon as they got on board. Yes, the whole raid was probably poorly planned due to naive belief that "humanitarians" on those ships are just that and not terrorists.
In addition to that, the ships were offered a choice of simply turning back or going peacefully to Ashdod port and passing their humanitarian aid through Israel, which Israel already did in previous such cases. All of this is recorded on video too and not denied by the other side. The amount of the aid that was found on the ships was a tiny fraction of what Israel passes daily to the Palestinians in Gaza.

I can see a feud with Turkey unraveling and this is very dangerous.

The feud with Turkey is something that started when the current ruling party took the elections. The Turkish prime minister Erdogan is actually an extremist islamist, supported by organizations that are connected to Muslim Brothers and such. The feud is a natural result of his political and religious views. There's a Ph.D. student from Turkey (she is Turkish Muslim girl) in my faculty, and she tells that the general population despises him and that all those hate demonstrations are organized by a very vocal and extremist minority. She herself said not once that Erdogan is an idiot who harms the country.

I guess they who live by the sword die by the sword too.

This is a common mistake made by people who don't know about the roots of this conflict. We don't want to live by the sword because no sane person wants to live by sword. All we do is a reaction to the actions against us.

Fuckin' Hamas. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.

As for the activists, they were taken off the boats at gunpoint and to a base inside Israel, where they were told they were being charged with a crime.

Activists:"We were in international waters. What crime?"
IDF: "Entering Israel illegally."
Activists: "..."

IDF:
Crimes of absolute liability ftw!


But really now, if Turkey accuses you of being heavy handed, you know something's gone wrong.

As for the legal side, I can play too!

The UN Charter on the Law of the Sea says only if a vessel is suspected to be transporting weapons, or weapons of mass destruction, can it be boarded in international waters. Otherwise the permission of the ship's flag carrying nation must be sought. Seeing as it left from Turkish-occupied territory, that basically raises another thorny issue with Turkey itself, who will hardly be pleased by effectively being accused of supporting international terrorism. As well as, y'know, the whole needing reasonable suspicion thing.

The charter allows for naval blockades, but the effect of the blockade on civilians must be proportionate to the effect on the military element for the blockade to be legally enforceable. Another issue we can conveniently ignore, right? The UN says that the aid coming into Gaza is about 25% of what is actually needed. But who cares what the UN says? It was only a UN resolution which created Israel in the first place anyway so no point in listening to what they say.

A ship trying to breach a blockade can be boarded and force may be used to stop it as long as it is "necessary and proportionate". Now whether this is a proportionate response to a bunch of people with sticks and bits of piping remains to be seen.

Israel should've waited until the ships were in their own territorial waters. The threat of the ships themselves (not any speculative future flotillas which do not as yet exist) did not warrant this kind of approach, and basically managed to piss off the whole world and destroying any credibility they had left.

Well played, guys.

On the flipside, if a load of weapons and drugs and child pornography is found on board, then Turkey will have been caught supporting terrorism and they look bad (well, worse).

So it's a win-win situation for us, really.

My conclusion: we have a load of basket cases for neighbours.

As for the activists, they were taken off the boats at gunpoint and to a base inside Israel, where they were told they were being charged with a crime.

No one was charged with anything and all of those "activists" are being deported right now. Even those who tried to lynch the soldiers.

But who cares what the UN says? It was only a UN resolution which created Israel in the first place anyway so no point in listening to what they say.

The UN in 2010 is not the same UN that created Israel. Nowadays it's a completely obsolete organization which does more harm than good and is controlled by such great supporters of civil rights movements as Iran, Saudi Arabia, Livia, Lebanon, Syria and such.

Let's see the latest achievements of this glorious protector of human rights:
- South Korean military vessel was attacked by North Korea and sunk, killing 46 soldiers. Did we see any serious UN action? No. Did we see a demonstrations all over the world, accusing North Korea of piracy? Guess what - no. No one cares.

- Sudan's president is accused of war crimes and there's an international arrest warrant for him. Turkey, the same country that accuses Israel of war crimes, invites him to some conference despite this little insignificant detail. I have no idea if he actually went to Turkey, but this still an example of Turkey's double standards. There's also absolutely no attempt at arresting him. So, neither UN nor most of the rest of the world doesn't really care about what's going on in Darfur. It's much easier to pass a gazillion resolutions condemning Israel of anything they can think of.

- Russia attacks Georgia for little or no apparent reason (actually, Putin just doesn't like the Georgian president), bombing the fuck out of Georgian cities. Does UN care much? No. Did you see demonstrations of tens of thousands people? I certainly did not. Again, no one cares.

- The same Russia did a genocide of Chechen people in 1990's. Did you see UN resolutions on the subject, pleads of sanctions and such? Nope, never happened. The world doesn't care much either.

- Turkey bombs the Kurds, even if it means flying to Iraq and doing it there. UN resolutions? No. Mass demonstrations? You guessed right - no. The world probably doesn't care.

- Israeli citizens in the south of the country were bombed on an almost daily basis by Hamas rockets for almost 8 years (it continues even now, though mostly on the weekly basis). UN resolutions? No.

- During February and March 2002 there were almost daily suicide bombings here in Israel, killing a whole lot of people. I haven't seen a single demonstration in support of Israel. But when Israel decides that enough is enough and goes to a big military operation to destroy the terrorist infrastructure in the West Bank and Gaza, the whole world almost exploded with anger and we got accused of the massacre in Jenin, which didn't happen.

Double standards are fun.

The Israeli soldiers went aboard 5 other ships without incident. It was on the Sixth ship that some of the activists pulled knives and started fights. Odds are if the activists had kept their cool their ship would have been allowed to pass. And, yes, there are videos of the ACTIVISTS starting the violence on board the ship.

These anti-Israel, anti-USA conspiracy wackojob websites are having a field day with this event, as can be expected.

However, the international waters thing is a thorny issue and one that Israel will probably have the hardest time solving. As for Turkey, they hate USA and Israel anyway, so what else is new.

...uh yeah, I'm not exactly a fan of Turkey's policies. You know, the whole invading-us-and-ethnic-clensing deal that went down back in 74... continuing human rights violations... not exactly great friends are they? I do see myself playing devil's advocate here, if there's anyone on this board with issues regarding Turkey it would be me, right? (Since my family's entire inheritence is in the occupied areas... my grandfather died without ever getting to see his home and property again... you know, that sort of minor negligable connection.)

All I'm saying is this situation could have been dealt with a lot better.

Netanyahu's pretty retarded policies regarding the whole settlement building situation really don't help either. Is it so vital to build settlements that violate basically every international law right now? If Israel wants to be taken seriously they should at least try to look like they're adhering to international law instead of openly flouting it. Israel isn't the terrorist organisation here, Hamas is, but behaving like one doesn't help in terms of international standing.

Israel could get support for their situation and I believe did have support once upon a time, but they've basically squandered every bit of goodwill they could have had by behaving with a completely disproportionate sense of entitlement.

The UN in 2010 is not the same UN that created Israel. Nowadays it's a completely obsolete organization which does more harm than good and is controlled by such great supporters of civil rights movements as Iran, Saudi Arabia, Livia, Lebanon, Syria and such.

Do you actually believe this? Iran and Lybia control an organisation that imposes sanctions on themselves? Silly me, and here I was thinking China, Russia and the US had the biggest say on what the UN does! I have to rethink geopolitics now because Lebanon is a global power after all! Wonder how I overlooked that. Thanks for the heads up!

However, the international waters thing is a thorny issue and one that Israel will probably have the hardest time solving. As for Turkey, they hate USA and Israel anyway, so what else is new.

Turkey had a military alliance with Israel in the not-too-distant past. That relationship... has soured of late.

Bathory Killcraft wrote:the mods

Laugh out loud funny!!

Do you actually believe this? Iran and Lybia control an organisation that imposes sanctions on themselves? Silly me, and here I was thinking China, Russia and the US had the biggest say on what the UN does! I have to rethink geopolitics now because Lebanon is a global power after all! Wonder how I overlooked that. Thanks for the heads up!

Yeah, that's why the sanctions on Iran, whose president and the entire leadership declare openly day and night that their goal is to wipe Israel off the map, are moving so nicely. China has absolutely no interest in doing anything to Iran. Russia has no interest in it too, because of the trade relationships. Lebanon, Syria and such have (or at least had up until recently) a temporary seats in the security council and certainly used it in order to call all sorts of meetings and propose anti-Israeli resolutions, even when there was no chance of getting a result of of it because of USA veto power. There's also an automatic majority on any anti-Israeli resolution on general assembly.

Is it so vital to build settlements that violate basically every international law right now?

Israel is not building any settlements for more than half a year. Even building in Eastern Jerusalem, which is a part of our capital, is de-facto stopped by all sorts of beaurocratic means.
And as to being taken seriously - the only case in which we will be taken seriously and will be loved is when we go to the nearest beach and drown ourselves. Sad but true.
When people all around the world ignore the evidence, and not only in this case, and assume what they wish to assume, it's something other than a simple worrying for Palestinians.

I just perceive how people justify violence, as if it would be deserved in some occasions.
True for me is that Israel & USA = Money.

How did this provide any financial benefits for either Israel or the US? It's just epic mismanagement and very bad public relations.

Anyway, I think the IAF should airlift the mega-bulldozer that killed the first Rachel Corrie up to 3000 feet and then drop it onto the deck of the MV Rachel Corrie and sink her. It would be awesome, like something out of Pimp My Ride.

Plus I do find the irony of Turkey lecturing anyone on human rights and international law quite amusing.

Mehida wrote:I just perceive how people justify violence, as if it would be deserved in some occasions.

Yeah, it always seems justified(by some people)when Palestinians do it. Swept under the rug. Like Shurik said, double standards are fun.

We can complain all we want, and pass judgments. But, Shurik LIVES in that area. I think he should know what is really going on there.

Yeah, I don't know anything at all about the area.

NeonVomit wrote:Yeah, I don't know anything at all about the area.

Do you live in Israel, too?

I can't wait 'til miditek posts, that should be fun.

I spent the first 21 years of my life in Cyprus (where the fleet left from) and still go back very often (family, and the band is based there). It's my home, after all. Whatever goes on in the middle east tends to have a direct and immediate impact on Cyprus, so yes, I'm pretty well-informed about what goes on there.

miditek will start on about an international conspiracy and how this is all linked to the book of Revelations and how the end of the world is upon us and that God's People (even though they're Jewish and therefore unbelievers in Christ and therefore will go to hell) will have to battle on the path of righetousness. He'll probably accuse me of being sympathetic to terrorism even though my sister was almost killed in the 7/7 attacks in London, because I don't have the black/white worldview that he does. The usual result of reading his posts (apart from music-related ones, because he does know his stuff in that area for sure) is they make me die a little on the inside and lose some of my will to live, but it's ok as long as I'm not drunk.

Again, all I'm saying is this was a very poorly thought-out plan which has resulted in a pretty bizzare showdown between Turkey and Israel.

True for me is that Israel & USA = Money.

Damn, where is my share of the profits?

Anyway, I think the IAF should airlift the mega-bulldozer that killed the first Rachel Corrie up to 3000 feet and then drop it onto the deck of the MV Rachel Corrie and sink her. It would be awesome, like something out of Pimp My Ride.

It would be the dictionary definition of epic ownage.

Again, all I'm saying is this was a very poorly thought-out plan which has resulted in a pretty bizzare showdown between Turkey and Israel.

The only poorly thought-out part in this plan was underestimating the "peace activists". It was a pretty dumb thing to continue lowering soldiers into the crazed and armed mob. There are tons of non-lethal crowd dispersal means that could be used in order to end this thing relatively peacefully.
As to what happens between us and the Turkey, it started a long time ago. This story is just another waypoint on the road of Turkey going to Iran and such.

Hamas refuses to accept aid cargo from "flotilla"

http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=177283

But wasn't this cargo supposed to be of "vital" interest to the Paleosimians?

Meanwhile, the pickings in Palifanatic markets are looking a bit slim these days! Guess they'll be reduced to eating sawdust, wallpaper, and rats (as the citizens of Leningrad did during their siege) soon enough!

Carcass wrote:The only thing achieved is isolation. Relations with the US are already cold and this incident will further alienate Turkey, the closest thing to a friend Israel has in the region.

The main thing achieved is that the blockade was enforced, period. Of course there were no heavy weapons on board- this time. That would ruin Hama's propaganda game, and if Hamas were hurling their rockets and mortars at Finns, it is very likely that the Finns would adopt a policy very similiar to that of Israel's!

What's Israel supposed to do, wait for the Paki's to hand off one of their nukes to Hamas and help them to detonate it while it docks at Gaza or sneaks into Ashdod?

Shurik wrote:The threat is an establishment of a constant unchecked weapon smuggling to the Hamas-occupied Gaza. We certainly do not need more rockets on our heads. If we let one such flotilla to pass, no matter what it carries, the next one will smuggle rockets instead of toys and medicine, it happened not once in the past. Just look for info about Karin A ship. That's why the blockade will continue as long as Hamas rules in Gaza.

And that is precisely the game that Hamas is playing, and even the UN and EU bureaucrats and the media are particularly aware of this, and are active participants in the propaganda/ carnival shell game themselves!

NeonVomit wrote:Netanyahu's pretty retarded policies regarding the whole settlement building situation really don't help either.

So the Jews can't build in Jerusalem? According to "World Opinion", apparently not!

NeonVomit wrote:Israel could get support for their situation and I believe did have support once upon a time, but they've basically squandered every bit of goodwill they could have had by behaving with a completely disproportionate sense of entitlement.

Really? I didn't realize that the Jews had set up Einsatzkommando operations and began wholesale liquidations in Hebron, Gaza, and the West Bank- the latter of which, incidentally, was part of Jordan until 1967. Unfortunately for Hama's puppets in the international media, Jager Reports for the IDF special forces don't exist.

The Dayton Accords basically gave that old gangster Arafart 90% of what the PLO was crying for, but of course he rejected it. They reject everything, and then as usual, Israel gets the blame. I realize that it's trendy to hate Israel, but at least be a little more creative with your hate, rather than parroting soundbites from the braindead liberal media.

So basically, Israel has no credibility, just because you say so! Wow! What will they think of next?

NeonVomit wrote:Anyway, I think the IAF should airlift the mega-bulldozer that killed the first Rachel Corrie up to 3000 feet and then drop it onto the deck of the MV Rachel Corrie and sink her. It would be awesome, like something out of Pimp My Ride.

Now you're truly going to levels of Hell that Dante himself could never even conceive for insulting St. Pancake! You've said a lot of weird things in the past, but this is going a little too far!!!

NeonVomit wrote:miditek will start on about an international conspiracy and how this is all linked to the book of Revelations and how the end of the world is upon us and that God's People (even though they're Jewish and therefore unbelievers in Christ and therefore will go to hell) will have to battle on the path of righetousness.

And you don't think that Hamas, Hezbollah, Syrian intelligence, Iranian intelligence, Al-Qaeda, Taliban and the rest of the gang don't constitute an international conspiracy against Israel? All the hijackings, bombings, kidnappings, beheadings on live TV and Internet feeds, and all of the other less than savory activities must be their way of showing Israel how much that, deep down, they really must admire them, then!

And the UN? There's a fair and impartial group. They should rename it the Dictator's Club! Their stormtroops don't do squat, and they don't prevent genocide, they encourage it! And then, they actually participate in gang rapes and murders of girls and women in places like Rwanda!

And as far as all of the Jews going to Hell, you probably forgot your Bible classes from when you were a kid. Remember the post-incarnate appearances of people such as Abraham in Luke 16, or Moses and Elijah at the Transfiguration in Mark 9? Or even further back before Abraham when Enoch walked with God straight out of this world in Genesis 5?

Or perhaps another example is a preincarnate apperance of Christ in Daniel 1 where he saved Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego from Nebuchadnezzar's furnace, but according to your logic of my beliefs, He then then threw the three tinto Hell later on for not believing in Him, even though they had already met Him while in the furnace itself?

Or the fact that Christ spent three days (after the Crucifixion) in Hell preaching to lost souls before the Great Flood - as told in 1 Peter 3?

Or we could also examine the fact that there are not over 100,000 Messianic Jews in Israel, and even many more worldwide? Moreoever, over 50-60 million Muslims in the Middle East hear the sermons of Egyptian Coptic Priest Father Zacharia Boutros every weeknight via satellite TV? And there have been millions of them that have converted to Christianity over the last few years. So let's not fall into that habit of putting words into my mouth again without having a real clue of what I believe now, shall we?

NeonVomit wrote:He'll probably accuse me of being sympathetic to terrorism even though my sister was almost killed in the 7/7 attacks in London, because I don't have the black/white worldview that he does.

The usual result of reading his posts (apart from music-related ones, because he does know his stuff in that area for sure) is they make me die a little on the inside and lose some of my will to live, but it's ok as long as I'm not drunk.

I don't think your sympathetic to terrorism, I just think that you've bought their propaganda sideshow hook, line, and sinker. And take it from someone that is older than you, their is really nothing in that bottle that's worth a damn.

And getting back to St. Pancake's little armada, it would not have bothered me one bit to see IDF gunner's mates start hosing the deck down with twin .50 cal armored piercing rounds and tracers prior to boarding, but I think that is exactly the sort of thing that Hamas would have loved to have seen. But after this recent episode, I would say that Hamas' luck may run out next time. One of those Dolphin-class subs might just torpedo the next "mercy flotilla", and Israel could just shrug and say, "oh well, they must have had munitions on board." It is not uncommon for Hamas bomb labs to explode due to weapons mishandling, and the same concept could be applied to the "flotillas" and give IDF plausible deniability.

browneyedgirl wrote:I can't wait 'til miditek posts, that should be fun.

There you go!

hurp deee hurp dee durppphurp deee hurp dee durppphurp deee hurp dee durppphurp deee hurp dee durppphurp deee hurp dee durppphurp deee hurp dee durppphurp deee hurp dee durppphurp deee hurp dee durppphurp deee hurp dee durppphurp deee hurp dee durppphurp deee hurp dee durppphurp deee hurp dee durppphurp deee hurp dee durppphurp deee hurp dee durppphurp deee hurp dee durppphurp deee hurp dee durppphurp deee hurp dee durppphurp deee hurp dee durppphurp deee hurp dee durppphurp deee hurp dee durppphurp deee hurp dee durppphurp deee hurp dee durppphurp deee hurp dee durppphurp deee hurp dee durppphurp deee hurp dee durppphurp deee hurp dee durppphurp deee hurp dee durppphurp deee hurp dee durppphurp deee hurp dee durppphurp deee hurp dee durppphurp deee hurp dee durppphurp deee hurp dee durppphurp deee hurp dee durppphurp deee hurp dee durppphurp deee hurp dee durppphurp deee hurp dee durppphurp deee hurp dee durppphurp deee hurp dee durppphurp deee hurp dee durppp

miditek wrote: Or the fact that Christ spent three days (after the Crucifixion) in Hell preaching to lost souls before the Great Flood - as told in 1 Peter 3?

I like your definition of a fact. I never knew something that could not be proven in any way whatsoever and has absolutely no evidence supporting it could be considered a fact!

The rest of your post almost gave me eye cancer, so what robocop656 said.

NeonVomit wrote:

miditek wrote: Or the fact that Christ spent three days (after the Crucifixion) in Hell preaching to lost souls before the Great Flood - as told in 1 Peter 3?

I like your definition of a fact. I never knew something that could not be proven in any way whatsoever and has absolutely no evidence supporting it could be considered a fact!

The rest of your post almost gave me eye cancer, so what robocop656 said.

If your faith is strong enough, everything from the relevant holy book is a fact
Anyway, apart from the Christianity stuff and the colorful language, miditek writes pretty good posts.

miditek wrote:

Carcass wrote:The only thing achieved is isolation. Relations with the US are already cold and this incident will further alienate Turkey, the closest thing to a friend Israel has in the region.

What's Israel supposed to do, wait for the Paki's to hand off one of their nukes to Hamas and help them to detonate it while it docks at Gaza or sneaks into Ashdod?

If Israel wants to avoid shippings like these they should take away the perfect pretext by easing up on the far too harsh and absurd blockade. It takes MacGyver to build qassams out of banned items such as plastic toys and planks.

Shurik wrote:

NeonVomit wrote:

miditek wrote: Or the fact that Christ spent three days (after the Crucifixion) in Hell preaching to lost souls before the Great Flood - as told in 1 Peter 3?

I like your definition of a fact. I never knew something that could not be proven in any way whatsoever and has absolutely no evidence supporting it could be considered a fact!

The rest of your post almost gave me eye cancer, so what robocop656 said.

If your faith is strong enough, everything from the relevant holy book is a fact

If someone wrote a holy book saying the First Law of Thermodynamics was in fact not valid, or that the Earth were flat, or that if you prayed hard enough your amputated arm would grow back, no matter how much you believe in these things, they would not be facts. Sorry. You could jump off a building believing you would not come to any harm, sail to the end of the world looking for the edge, or pay every person you know to pray for your arm 24/7, and none of these things would happen.

If you want to, give them a try sometime and let me know how they work out.

Fact is different from faith and the two should never be confused.

Faith is, by definition, believing in something despite there being no evidence for it.

Sadly, for many, faith has become fact.

Anyway, apart from the Christianity stuff and the colorful language, miditek writes pretty good posts.

In the same way that Ceaucescu was a cunning political leader, maybe. He's become a caricature of himself and it's a shame.

I think it is not a good idea to dissect posts. It only makes one look smarter than they really are. I've done it myself a lot and I think it is retarded... Just plain write down your views.

There's no Christ so he didn't go to any Hell whatsoever, sorry to burst your bubble midi... if he did for you however well, respect

I only want to make three points, away from this religious nonsense.

1) Turkey is pretty much the instigator of this episode.

2) Like Shurik said, there are non-lethal ways to disperse a crowd on a boat and should have been used instead.

3) I am very tempted to say that instead of Hamas' luck it may be Israel's luck that runs out next time. If you already don't realise it, the whole world (minus JewSA) strongly condemned the violence. Of course Israel doesn't give a toss about international opinion - they never did - but so far that was the kind of arrogant defiant attitude usually boasted by the North Koreas and Irans of this world.

Don't forget that Israel is still a small entity amidst the chaos that is the Middle East whichever way you see it. A coordinated attack of the muslim world including Turkey would probably spell its end.

You forget Israel have God on their side. They can't be defeated and are always right. They are the Chosen People, remember?

Yeah, like Jose Mourinho!

Exactly! Except he's probably a more effective tactician than they could ever hope to be.

Yeah, Netanyahu is more a Maradona than a Mourinho when it comes to managing stuff

I know that the whole world condemns what happened, but all this condemnation is based on the hatred towards Israel, hatred that based on the antisemitism. What other country would have agreed to daily bombings of its citizens? What other country would have agreed to allow others to arm their enemies (and breaking the blockade will result exactly in that)? What would your governments do in such cases?

I really don't understand this hatred and condemnations of everything we do to protect ourselves. I understand that to average European all that happens here must look surreal and morally wrong and the stronger side is usually the one who gets blamed for everything that happens to the weaker side, but is it so difficult to look a bit beyond what's being shown on CNN and BBC?