Stratovarius Community

I want to start a serious topic. Last times I was thinking about the development of metal and I got through a conlusion that last ten years it was a big "regression".
For me the beginnings of rock are The Beatles, they played in 1960-1970. Of course there were a lot of many bands, but I want to speak about precoursers.
Those years were also Jimi Hendrix and The Doors.
1971 - Stairway to Heaven from "Led Zeppelin IV"
1973 - Dark Side of the Moon - Pink Floyd
1975 - A Night in the Opera - Queen.
1979 - The Wall - Pink Floyd
Generally, 1970s it was a development of progressive rock with synth sound.
Of course 1970s are also the beginning of metal. 1970 - Paranoid of Black Sabbath, 1975 - Rainbow releases Ritchie Blackmore's Rainbow.
1980s it is a for most people "ABBA" era, but for me I connect them strongly with Iron Maiden and Metallica. Of course Judas Priest, Accept, etc... It was the first modern metal sound and like IM with catchy choruses and some power metal elements (Aces High)
1987 - Keeper of the 7 keys - Helloween,
1988 - Batallions of Fear - Blind Guardian
1989 - Fright Night - Stratovarius
It was the first CDs of power metal also speed metal (Hansen).
But also late 80s was the beginning of trash, death and black metal.
1991 - Images and Words - Dream Theater. Of course there was a lot of influences from Queensryche, YES and Pink Floyd. But that began progressive metal.
Whole 1990s it was a constant motion in these genres.
Finally I want to go to my main point.
2000 it was a year when:
Dream Theater was on their tour of Metropolis pt. 2
- IHMO their best album
Helloween released The Dark Ride, last album with Kusch and Grapow, a classic
Gamma Ray - between Powerplant and No World Order - both full of great songs, also classic
Blind Guardian - between Nightfall and A Night in the Opera,
Stratovarius - Infinite (my favourite is Episode, but Infinite is on the podium)
Avantasia - The Metal Opera part 1 released in 2001.
Ayreon - Universal Migrator
Symphony X - V: New Mythology Suite
Nightwish - Wishmaster

What I want to say is that although in 2000-2010 there were released a lot of great albums (i.e. Octavarium, Dark Passion Play, Polaris, The Days of Grays, The Edge of Time, Majestic), but in my opinion there is no development in it. I mean it a kind of autoplagiat all that stuff and the march forward has stopped. Maybe in other genres there are new elements (i think about Lady Gaga, Muse, Placebo or some dance/techno music which I don't listen) but I am bit afraid about metal, where does it goes?
I have few bands I really trust in their new compositions: i mean Nightwish, Stratovarius, all Arjen Lucassen stuff (great Guilt Machine, but also nothing really new) and maybe BG.

Do you also have a feeling of wasted years?

Sorry for such a long post, maybe I just can't sleep well

Well, technically the development of Metal has made many subgenres. Each of those lies a number of bands playing for that specific sub. I see what you mean, there are no new subgenres created in the past decade. Did people figure out all genres or did they simply ran out of ideas?
Here in the US, it's all pop. Lady Gaga, Ke$ha, etc...
But think about it. Have they progressed in the last ten years? Disregard popular demand. The sound is still pretty much the same.
We can say Electronica has evolved a bit, mainly because of the technology brought upon the studio. But no major changes, either.

I'll agree with you, pneumonia, that 2000-2010 wasn't very experimental. Although bands like Edguy and Sonata Arctica changed their styles, they have't invented something fresh.... yet.

this is indeed a serious topic but you have a limited range
when you use the example of 1975 you got different kinds of rock, Zep , Queen , Pink Floyd.

you got to do the same between 2000-2010

not only focusing in power metal, for example, in October 2007 radiohead released In rainbows totally free on the net and went straigh to no 1 when they released the Cd.

For my point of view one of the most innovative moments in rock in this period.

for metal in general I think more and more it has became a Fashionable stuff. when you see all kind of products with the Rock tag in it you can tell somethin is happenin.
guitar hero, rock band, motorokr (motorola cellphone) bret michaels rock of love...

and for the music itself, what can I say.....very few bands guide the way of rock, I put my money on White Stripes , The Muse.

I agree that the 90s were a much more exiting time for metal. :headbang: Lets not forget that the last ten years have given rise to widespread music piracy, and album sales have decreased dramatically. :uzi:

:viking:

Musicians are struggling to finance their records, and creativity has gone down the drain. Coincidence? :yum2:

:jump2: :uzi: :headbang: :music: :viking: :yum2:

Agree! I've heard things that I love but not things that -wow- me...

Or maybe I'm just too hooked on epic-forest-costume-10 hour solo stuff...
Who knows, there might be something new out there, I'll just keep looking, 'till I find a lucky winner I can defend

big difference between creating music and getting people to listen to or appreciate that music. what percentage of songs from the last decade do you think you have heard?

My ideo of 2000-2010 is that metal became large enough to break into these small subgenres and that's why this type of general metal ceased to exist and it was replaced by something for everyone metal.

Many great young bands released their debut during these years and for me these years are big part of my childhood and youth and they will always define what styles are going to be dear to me.

No more are there just some general classic albums that every metal fan will like. Now everyone will have their own classics.

Excalions Waterlines and High Time are some of the most important records to me and other classics of this are Sonata Arctic- Unia, Symphony x - The Odyssey and Paradise Lost, Celesty - Vendetta, Leverage - Circus Colossus, Kiuas - The Spirit of Ukko, Stratovarius - Elements, Revolution Renaissance - Age of Aquarius, Olympos Mons - Medevil, Dream Evil - the three first albums, Firewind - The Premonition, Rhapsody Of Fire - SOEL II and FToA, Silent Force - Walk the Earth...

Well I just realised there are too many more to keep listing.

Yes 90's sure were nice enough to give us NU metal.

I agree completely with the title of the topic. 2000-2010 has been full of nothing regarding music in general (just some fantastic albums, that compared with the amount of 80's-90's is almost nothing). Or at least in rock/metal that is the music I like. Anyway, the bands I like, released very good albums imo. But in general, there isn't progression. It's almost the same without creativity. But well, I think the same happened in other past times. For example, Stratovarius brought with their albums from 94-98 a lot of freshness to metal music and a lot of bands followed his path later. Maybe that will happen again? Who knows. I think we are living some kind of era where music is preconceived and composers make more than ever just to get money, not for his own ideass. I think in the past it was the contrary, they created something because it was his idea and inspiration and if as a result the money was there, it was like a gift.
Now it's all like a "let's get all the possible easy money remastering our old classics without having good ideas. There's no reason to think in creating something new, if the old stuff is enough."

But maybe that have to do with the fans too. The fans always get mad if the composers release new music too similar to the their old music, but if they go for something really new, maybe they don't get the same attention. It's difficult.

And the same is happening in movies for example.


But, I hate when composers comes here saying that this is something completely new in music, and you can hear the 80's rock classics almost remastered. Many composers are doing that. Well, In 90's too, but I think it was more complex and more original. Now it's all overproduced and stereotypical.

But I see new interesting things coming in this new decade we are gonna live. I think we are gonna live a turning point in music. Of course, not in pop or thinks like that, that is like fashion, the same over and over again, just recycled.

It is just that we are living a time in music that others have lived before, that's what I think. Until somebody will come and will surprise again.

I don't really see a big difference in what we are talking now, and what others talked in the past.

In 70's-80's everything was new. But what now? You have listened to that stuff and 90's-2000 stuff. Now it's almost impossible to get a surprise. Everyday, you have more and more music experience in your head.

Metal didn't really show anything new this decade, true, but some progrock has new stuff (some Arjen Lucassen stuff, Porcupine Tree etc.).

Where is to to progress too?

I'm sure i have redundancy here but just a general thrown together list of what has been explored in different or new ways in the last ten years

We have
Albums that utilize all sorts of new studio effects and production techniques
Albums with all sorts of new pedal, amp and movement controlled effects
Albums that feature full orchestra
Albums that feature any kind of cultures traditional or national music
Albums that feature any thinkable non traditional metal instrument
Albums fussed with any other genre
Albums that change genre in the middle of songs
Albums that use their own tunings
Albums that use any scales found in a book and scales invented by the performers
Albums that are tonal and atonal
Albums that are jammed on the spot
Albums where the performers invented their own instruments to perform
Albums with loops and samples and cuts of other songs
Albums based of of math equations
Albums based on original storylines
Albums played with people with physical and/or mental anomalies
Albums with all sorts of sonic exploration and invention tone wise
Albums with all sorts of rhythmic exploration
Albums with all sorts of panning effects
Albums oriented towards featuring different instruments and atmospheres
Albums that feature all sorts of mixing and mastering variations
Albums that feature all kinds of distortion techniques
Albums that never repeat sections at all
Albums that explore all sorts of different meter
Albums that explore all sorts of music forms
Albums that explore all sort of texture from homophony to monophony to polyphony
Albums that have all sorts of different string combinations for chord and scale allowance
Albums that explore all sorts of modulation and key changes
Albums that explore all sorts of consonance and dissonance
Albums that feature all sorts of tempo play
Albums that feature all sorts of dynamics
Albums that feature all sorts of interval play

Hey, you had Kamelot's Epica and The Black Halo in 2003 and 2005: masterpieces!!!

Actually, the 90s was mostly a very bad decade for metal. It started with a rise of grunge and continued with nu-metal. Many of the bands I like tried to "experiment" (which mostly meant trying to be as radio-friendly and trendy as possible) and failed. Metallica had 3 studio albums in the 90s - self-titled one was OK but Load and Reload sucked. Megadeth started with Rust In Peace and Symphony Of Destruction but continued with average to bad radio-friendly crap. Slayer had Seasons In The Abyss but their other 90s albums were pretty mediocre. Most of 80s thrash metal bands either changed their styles or disappeared completely. Iron Maiden had their worst decade. In general, many tried to experiment, very few succeeded.

I prefer 2000s to 90s, by far.

icecab21 wrote:big difference between creating music and getting people to listen to or appreciate that music. what percentage of songs from the last decade do you think you have heard?

I think maybe..0.05% hahaha and I think somebody who works in the music bussines get around 50% tops

adrian9 wrote:

icecab21 wrote:big difference between creating music and getting people to listen to or appreciate that music. what percentage of songs from the last decade do you think you have heard?

I think maybe..0.05% hahaha and I think somebody who works in the music bussines get around 50% tops

There is no way.
50% would mean this person would have had to listen the whole decade from the first till last day music to get even close to 50%.
There are billions of people in te world and music is is created all over.

mayhem-for-all wrote:

adrian9 wrote:

icecab21 wrote:big difference between creating music and getting people to listen to or appreciate that music. what percentage of songs from the last decade do you think you have heard?

I think maybe..0.05% hahaha and I think somebody who works in the music bussines get around 50% tops

There is no way.
50% would mean this person would have had to listen the whole decade from the first till last day music to get even close to 50%.
There are billions of people in te world and music is is created all over.

Lady Gaga herself said that the best way for a band to make money is to make world tours.
Piracy injures the record company more than the band itself.

There are all sorts of unsigned bands creating all sorts of music

Bigger budget bands are definitely able to record more ambitious projects, but bands with less can certainly write music that would be more ambitious if performed

I would rather bands play what they wanted to play than play something just for the sake of trying to be new or something.

It does seem people think something’s less creative the second time around but if we are just talking about incremental change or expansion, I definitely think it’s safe to say bands have done that this decade. Blind guardian just released their most ambitions albums with full orchestra and many other bands have done full orchestra involvement and up to 99 I’m not sure if any bands have used a full orchestra that was in the studio recording process writing by band members. Rhapsody of fire is just about to release a 35 minute orchestra conceptual song so that’s a way that metal has gotten bigger and expanded on polyphony with more and more layers of harmonies being added to the music. Baroque metal almost just started out as with the keys playing chords and just a guitar playing a solo melody but now we have more polyphony with each instrument playing counterpoints as well as some combining to play chords as that is available with the larger sized orchestra.

Porcupine Tree is the only progressive band on tier with say, Pink Floyd.

of course is way impossible to hear every music is made in the world.
there are mainstream and Underground.
the underground scene will always be more prolific and creative than the Mainstream bands.

I forgot to mention the EMO PUNK or ROCK EMO, truly they came from the underground and make a mainstream hit in these recent years.

I dont know If you can call that a progression in music since its kind of a trend.

icecab21 wrote:Where is to to progress too?

I'm sure i have redundancy here but just a general thrown together list of what has been explored in different or new ways in the last ten years

We have
Albums that utilize all sorts of new studio effects and production techniques
Albums with all sorts of new pedal, amp and movement controlled effects
Albums that feature full orchestra
Albums that feature any kind of cultures traditional or national music
Albums that feature any thinkable non traditional metal instrument
Albums fussed with any other genre
Albums that change genre in the middle of songs
Albums that use their own tunings
Albums that use any scales found in a book and scales invented by the performers
Albums that are tonal and atonal
Albums that are jammed on the spot
Albums where the performers invented their own instruments to perform
Albums with loops and samples and cuts of other songs
Albums based of of math equations
Albums based on original storylines
Albums played with people with physical and/or mental anomalies
Albums with all sorts of sonic exploration and invention tone wise
Albums with all sorts of rhythmic exploration
Albums with all sorts of panning effects
Albums oriented towards featuring different instruments and atmospheres
Albums that feature all sorts of mixing and mastering variations
Albums that feature all kinds of distortion techniques
Albums that never repeat sections at all
Albums that explore all sorts of different meter
Albums that explore all sorts of music forms
Albums that explore all sort of texture from homophony to monophony to polyphony
Albums that have all sorts of different string combinations for chord and scale allowance
Albums that explore all sorts of modulation and key changes
Albums that explore all sorts of consonance and dissonance
Albums that feature all sorts of tempo play
Albums that feature all sorts of dynamics
Albums that feature all sorts of interval play

BUT.. do you have ANYTHING that's using the bohlen-pierce scale? Any Drop J tunings? Any 235 over 7 polyrhythms? AND DO YOU HAVE ANYTHING USING MARIMBAS FOR FUCKs SAKE?

anything someone thinks of can be done at the snap of the fingers, or the time it takes to write or record it, or simply the time it takes to change what is sampled in midi format.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6khTWfVwso
marimba for you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOf2M0pO ... re=related

anything can always be a just add metal to it

maybe its because im in america where there are over 350 million people but a lot of this music called mainstreem seems more like music of a big subculture rather than music that many demographics buy. sure, albums can sell millions of copy's but there is still little diversity among the people that buy those albums since we just have so many people out there. i mean in politics, the losing party still gets 60 million votes so it certainly makes sense to me that a minority music market can have millions in sales. 2008 had over 428 million cd sales and full downloads.

I'll NEVER had sex over a marimba again..

NeverendingAbyss wrote:

mayhem-for-all wrote:

adrian9 wrote:

icecab21 wrote:big difference between creating music and getting people to listen to or appreciate that music. what percentage of songs from the last decade do you think you have heard?

I think maybe..0.05% hahaha and I think somebody who works in the music bussines get around 50% tops

There is no way.
50% would mean this person would have had to listen the whole decade from the first till last day music to get even close to 50%.
There are billions of people in te world and music is is created all over.

Lady Gaga herself said that the best way for a band to make money is to make world tours.
Piracy injures the record company more than the band itself.

If I understood right we were discussing amount of music from the last decade a person could have heard not money.

Anyway, a lot of artist are saying that from 5 or 6 years ago...And it's completely true.

Returning to the topic, yes, it's impossible to listen all the music, but we are talking about what we hear and I think it's enough to talk about if these past years were wasted or not.

Btw, can you imagine Metallica or others that earned A LOT of money from 2000-2010 (and still earning) reading this topic? That's the main thing, when music is gradually being more simple, easy and comercial, these artist are making more and more cash than ever.

And yes, it's not exactly the reason of this topic, but i think there's a connection. With less work, more money.

Power metal listeners are definitely searching development from a completely wrong direction. Many music critics have declared the genre as a dying one, but only more recently there has been some improvements. Blind Guardian were near classical music with their new album, and then there's Wuthering Heights with their very own mix of folk, classical and power metal. No new bands seem to have anything new up there sleeves though.

You should probably dig into some newer genres, with plenty of development and life in them, if it's development you're searching. Even though I think bands like Stratovarius, Blind Guardian, Gamma Ray, Freedom Call, Masterplan are seemingly living their new springtime with their best albums in years, I don't know if there's still really development here, or in sight. There might also be some less known bands that truly deliver, like WH.

Intiaani wrote:Power metal listeners are definitely searching development from a completely wrong direction.

And which is for you the right direction? For me is to mix it with progressive, cause it's the only way to experiment, cause there's a really wide spectrum of possibilities. I mean, it's not the same kind of song King of Nothing or Deep Unknown than Against the wind or Distant skies.

And regarding Stratovarius, there are a lot of things we have never seen, like an orchestra album for example, more instrumental songs, etc, etc.

I tend to agree with most of what has been said above. Especially with regards to Power Metal...it seems that the genre is going round in circle...some great albums indeed but as for freshness and creativity...Can you really evolve within a Genre though, and without breaking away from it??

To me the 2000's welcomed a new breed of Metal :
Math Rock or Math Metal...that is the only improvement(or new direction) that I have noticed in that decade.. Messhugga/Protest the Hero...
I have just got the new Periphery album and well you can't help but appreciate the full injection of odd time signatures and the SOUND itself....Most band have now proper 'sound engineers' within their own members and they are more creative/free/daring with their sound when in the 90's and before you always had to rely on another guy to do the job for you and it was for better or for worse.(all the bands from NTS records,Limp records....they ended sounding with the same drum sound,boring after a while).

Well all that to say that I am becoming tired too with the power metal scene and I want to hear something new..but it seems almost impossible, bands played faster and then slower and darker,singers sang higher then some started to growl a bit, guitar players shredded to the max audibly possible,drummers played faster/with more fills and odd times signatures, blast beats etc...We have had orchestration/choirs ....
Have we been spoiled and have we heard it all??What could be the next thing?

Against The Tide wrote: Have we been spoiled and have we heard it all??What could be the next thing?

That's a really good question.

Technology will create something else.

RazielSR wrote:

Intiaani wrote:Power metal listeners are definitely searching development from a completely wrong direction.

And which is for you the right direction?

Some newer genre, or a genre with many young unique bands. I don't really know since I mainly listen to new power metal and otherwise older stuff myself. Power metal definitely isn't an innovative genre these days.

Mixing power with prog could be a new thing. That said, bands like DT and Symphony X for me aren't even progressive. Their music doesn't constantly go forward and intertwine into other things. They just seem to knock their heads to the wall as much as power metal bands. They use more patterns, but they keep circling them as well, not breaking away from them. Compared to, say, Jethro Tull's Thick as a Brick, bands like DT really aren't progressive at all.

Against The Tide wrote:
Have we been spoiled and have we heard it all??What could be the next thing?

My point: it does seem so in power metal, although even it is blossoming a bit every now and then. New music styles overally still keep flooding out from doors and windows, though.

Some points with RazielSR keep coming back to what I realized sometime in 2005. Genres are a curse. They limit our musical views. They cloud from us what music there actually can be. Furthermore, some artists even aim to do one genre, and those definitely aren't the ones that offer us something new. Some might try to break the patterns (those who don't even know or care about genres?) but rarely succeed.

It's sad that every band I've heard doing this supposed 'avant-garde metal' for me seems patternal as well. Their music is chaotic, but yet again those bands repeat themselves or earlier bands even there. I guess one just cannot think outside the box, at least all its layers.