Absolutely nothing you said in that message is anything I haven't heard before, considered, and have a response to. "Be prepared your every argument to be utterly destroyed"Ultimo Mordecai wrote:Sorry guys, my computer crashed Sunday night, so I haven't been able to keep up, looks like there have been some interesting developments in this thread....
@Rebel: You're obviously very passionate about your position, unfortunately you're letting your amygdala blind your cerebrum (your emotions are clouding your judgement)
First of all, your argument that Science/naturalism, whatever you wanna call it (labels aren't important, I'm just gonna call it science since that's what it is) assumes both chaos and order simultaneously is logically invalid. The analogy you give about the rocks forming the sign is a great example that you have NO IDEA how science actually works.
If one sees a bunch of rocks that have been arranged into a sign, a scientist would NOT say 'prove to me those rocks didn't randomly arrange themselves like that' because that scenario has a much lower PROBABILITY of being true, than the scenario that someone arranged them that way. Science is not blind faith in chaos, it's accepting that the chaos of the universe is governed by ordered rules. In this case, the odds of rocks spontaneously arranging themselves into a sign is not statistically significant, in other words WE MUST ASSUME that someone put them that way given the information we have.
If you had EVER read a scientific paper in your life, you'd understand that science is all about probability and statistics; your black and white explanation of chaos vs. order is therefore logically invalid.
Before you start saying how it makes more sense that the universe was arranged by an intelligence like the rocks, keep in mind that this requires an extra assumption (that a creator exists) while the explanation that the randomness of the universe is governed by physical laws which created life requires no additional assumptions, and in fact is incredibly easy to see if you actually understand physics, chemistry, and biology. In other words, there is no logical reason to assume the existence OR the absence of a creator; science has thus far been sufficient enough to explain everything. Really the theism vs. atheism debate is totally pointless.
Your idea that miracles must be true because so many people believe them is also logically invalid. Personal testimony has been shown time and again to be the worst form of evidence in existence, and you're relying on testimonies from 2000 years ago by people who did not understand even the basics of how the universe works. Of course they all thought miracles existed, they didn't know any other way to explain things.
You also have yet to address my point that one cannot believe in a religion and logically discount any others. So I'll ask you directly: If you believe in Jesus, how can you logically NOT believe in Zeus, Brama or Quetzelcouatl?
Until you overcome this logical fallacy inherent in your beliefs, there is no reason for anyone to regard anything you say on this matter.
Your say good cannot exist without evil and that god wants us to choose for ourselves. I say this is illogical and irresponsible of god. If he wants us to act a certain way, it's on him to show us why and prove to us that he's worth listening to. And don't bother giving me that crap about "god doesn't want us to test him". If he's gonna make a universe that we understand through testing, he should expect to be tested as well. To expect otherwise is childish and immature, and I see no reason to worship such an entity.
Lastly, that parable teaches that those who are faithful will recieve the kingdom of heaven, while those who are not will recieve nothing. This is an absolutely terrible lesson, for it teaches that blind faith will somehow lead to rewards. This is exactly the kind of thinking that is wrong with the world, I don`t care if it`s in the bible or if Jesus himself said it: I refuse to buy into logical fallacies, even if god himself stood before me and spoke them.
I spent my whole life in Catholic School, so I am more than familiar with Christianity and it`s doctrines. And I can say from personal experience that this shit makes no sense lol
So there you go Rebel, feel free to post more ranting gibberish and ignoring logic if you wish, but be prepared your every argument to be utterly destroyed.
The theism/naturalism debate can be argued to a standstill by some very intelligent naturalists, you do not appear to be one. I have one more exam (Biology) to take tomorrow morning, and then I will prepare a few responses.