The Zeitgeist Movement

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Rebel
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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

Post by Rebel » Thu May 05, 2011 12:28 am

Ultimo Mordecai wrote:Sorry guys, my computer crashed Sunday night, so I haven't been able to keep up, looks like there have been some interesting developments in this thread....

@Rebel: You're obviously very passionate about your position, unfortunately you're letting your amygdala blind your cerebrum (your emotions are clouding your judgement)

First of all, your argument that Science/naturalism, whatever you wanna call it (labels aren't important, I'm just gonna call it science since that's what it is) assumes both chaos and order simultaneously is logically invalid. The analogy you give about the rocks forming the sign is a great example that you have NO IDEA how science actually works.
If one sees a bunch of rocks that have been arranged into a sign, a scientist would NOT say 'prove to me those rocks didn't randomly arrange themselves like that' because that scenario has a much lower PROBABILITY of being true, than the scenario that someone arranged them that way. Science is not blind faith in chaos, it's accepting that the chaos of the universe is governed by ordered rules. In this case, the odds of rocks spontaneously arranging themselves into a sign is not statistically significant, in other words WE MUST ASSUME that someone put them that way given the information we have.
If you had EVER read a scientific paper in your life, you'd understand that science is all about probability and statistics; your black and white explanation of chaos vs. order is therefore logically invalid.

Before you start saying how it makes more sense that the universe was arranged by an intelligence like the rocks, keep in mind that this requires an extra assumption (that a creator exists) while the explanation that the randomness of the universe is governed by physical laws which created life requires no additional assumptions, and in fact is incredibly easy to see if you actually understand physics, chemistry, and biology. In other words, there is no logical reason to assume the existence OR the absence of a creator; science has thus far been sufficient enough to explain everything. Really the theism vs. atheism debate is totally pointless.

Your idea that miracles must be true because so many people believe them is also logically invalid. Personal testimony has been shown time and again to be the worst form of evidence in existence, and you're relying on testimonies from 2000 years ago by people who did not understand even the basics of how the universe works. Of course they all thought miracles existed, they didn't know any other way to explain things.

You also have yet to address my point that one cannot believe in a religion and logically discount any others. So I'll ask you directly: If you believe in Jesus, how can you logically NOT believe in Zeus, Brama or Quetzelcouatl?
Until you overcome this logical fallacy inherent in your beliefs, there is no reason for anyone to regard anything you say on this matter.

Your say good cannot exist without evil and that god wants us to choose for ourselves. I say this is illogical and irresponsible of god. If he wants us to act a certain way, it's on him to show us why and prove to us that he's worth listening to. And don't bother giving me that crap about "god doesn't want us to test him". If he's gonna make a universe that we understand through testing, he should expect to be tested as well. To expect otherwise is childish and immature, and I see no reason to worship such an entity.

Lastly, that parable teaches that those who are faithful will recieve the kingdom of heaven, while those who are not will recieve nothing. This is an absolutely terrible lesson, for it teaches that blind faith will somehow lead to rewards. This is exactly the kind of thinking that is wrong with the world, I don`t care if it`s in the bible or if Jesus himself said it: I refuse to buy into logical fallacies, even if god himself stood before me and spoke them.

I spent my whole life in Catholic School, so I am more than familiar with Christianity and it`s doctrines. And I can say from personal experience that this shit makes no sense lol

So there you go Rebel, feel free to post more ranting gibberish and ignoring logic if you wish, but be prepared your every argument to be utterly destroyed.
Absolutely nothing you said in that message is anything I haven't heard before, considered, and have a response to. "Be prepared your every argument to be utterly destroyed"
:lol:

The theism/naturalism debate can be argued to a standstill by some very intelligent naturalists, you do not appear to be one. I have one more exam (Biology) to take tomorrow morning, and then I will prepare a few responses.

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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

Post by browneyedgirl » Thu May 05, 2011 3:12 pm

RazielSR wrote:I'm "amazed" of how people still believing in churches, christianity or other kind of religions.. It is that difficult to understand that religion, churches and beliefs are just a political weapon mainly since 2000 years ago? Why don't you read about the creation and which was the purpose of the Catholic Church?
I live in a country 90% christian (anyway almost nobody is going to churches, it is just christian let's say by tradtition) and I have been baptized, communion and all that. You don't know how FALSE and ABSOLUTELY a disgrace is all that environment, and how twisted is all that "world"... churches, mass, etc, etc...damn...incredible that people around the world is still inside all that things. I suppose it is necessary for the majority. All religions in this world, maybe not at the beginning, were created to control people, that's all. If you feel good going to mass and praying every night, of course you can and you should, but obviously to be here talking about the validity of the bible, the most twisted and plenty of manipulation book in the history (just read how in different councils it was decided which gospels were ok and which ones not) it is just mad.
For me the bible is just a curious book and really good to know about some historic events and important characters...and there are some good stories too.
But if somebody wants to follow that book in real life, he/she should know that the next stop will be a sanitarium.
Anyway, bishops, popes and all that fake human beings laugh a lot about this whole political creation when they are not praying in the mass while they see how people still almost in the same place they were more than 2000 years ago. The business continues, the business stills alive, what a fantastic and confortable way to make money.
Yeah, it makes far more sense to more or less idolize, or look up to musicians, and/or movie stars. After all, we can see them. :wink:

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NeonVomit
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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

Post by NeonVomit » Thu May 05, 2011 8:37 pm

My expression when I clicked on this thread:

Image
"Beneath the freezing sky arrives Winter's Verge..."

http://www.wintersverge.com


I'm going to hell, and loving the ride!

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Ultimo Mordecai
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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

Post by Ultimo Mordecai » Thu May 05, 2011 11:04 pm

LOL you have a point there....k, enough getting sidetracked, let's get this thread back on topic! (Considering how many anti-religion songs strato has, I'm surprised religion would even come up on here....) Rebel, I encourage you to continue being a rebel by posting in this thread, I wouldn't want you to think I was copping out!

Anyways, if anyone has any questions/comments about the actual movement, feel free to toss them around. I very much enjoyed answering the intelligent questions that were asked in the early days of this thread.
"If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the Universe."
-Carl Sagan

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Ultimo Mordecai
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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

Post by Ultimo Mordecai » Thu May 05, 2011 11:07 pm

Stealth wrote:
Ultimo Mordecai wrote:But yeah I agree with the seizuring dolphin, if you believe in any one religious entity, there is no logical way to denounce the existence of any deities in any religion, not even the flying spaghetti monster (ESPECIALLY the flying spaghetti monster! Lol)
Very true.

So you are from Edmonton? Go vote today! Unless you are planning on voting Conservative... If you are, stay home!!!
I'll be heading to the polling station soon. :D
NDP :)
"If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the Universe."
-Carl Sagan

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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

Post by robocop656 » Fri May 06, 2011 11:46 pm

NeonVomit wrote:My expression when I clicked on this thread:

Image
He still has time to answer a few simple questions instead of writing us a short story and acting like he knows everything.

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Rebel
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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

Post by Rebel » Sat May 07, 2011 4:38 am

robocop656 wrote:
NeonVomit wrote:My expression when I clicked on this thread:

Image
He still has time to answer a few simple questions instead of writing us a short story and acting like he knows everything.

In time, I have a lot of things to do first and I want to give you a well thought out and prepared response. I expect to have a response by Tuesday

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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

Post by Ultimo Mordecai » Sat May 07, 2011 12:40 pm

Wow, you're really going all out on this, you need to relax man :wink:
"If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the Universe."
-Carl Sagan

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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

Post by robocop656 » Sat May 07, 2011 3:30 pm

Rebel wrote:
robocop656 wrote:
NeonVomit wrote:My expression when I clicked on this thread:

Image
He still has time to answer a few simple questions instead of writing us a short story and acting like he knows everything.

In time, I have a lot of things to do first and I want to give you a well thought out and prepared response. I expect to have a response by Tuesday
No, no, I won't be able to take apart your long winded rants. It's better to leave it that we just hate each other. And we listen to similar music.

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Rebel
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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

Post by Rebel » Sat May 07, 2011 9:11 pm

Ultimo Mordecai wrote:Wow, you're really going all out on this, you need to relax man :wink:
Lol, I'm calm right now, I just want to make sure I'm representing my beliefs correctly.

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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

Post by Rebel » Sat May 07, 2011 9:12 pm

Ultimo Mordecai wrote:Wow, you're really going all out on this, you need to relax man :wink:
Lol, I'm calm right now, I just want to make sure I'm representing my beliefs correctly.

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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

Post by Jabi » Mon May 09, 2011 1:36 pm

Sorry about continuing off-topic, but I just thought I'd drop my 2 cents on the religion matter. In my opinion, one of the most important reasons Christianity makes no sense to the vast majority of people is they have never heard the original gospel. Religious tradition has taught us that average Joes and Janes are expendable, and God only redeems his "elect few". The rest will spend eternity in darkness and torment. However, over time I've come to believe this wasn't the original message of Jesus and the apostles. For all of you spiritual seekers out there: I suggest you visit the following site:

http://www.lighthouselibrary.com

Select "Authors Directory" --> "All Authors" --> "V" --> "Van Assen, Dora". Read the book and take a look at the diagram. It explains a lot.

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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

Post by Rebel » Mon May 09, 2011 4:45 pm

Jabi wrote:Sorry about continuing off-topic, but I just thought I'd drop my 2 cents on the religion matter. In my opinion, one of the most important reasons Christianity makes no sense to the vast majority of people is they have never heard the original gospel. Religious tradition has taught us that average Joes and Janes are expendable, and God only redeems his "elect few". The rest will spend eternity in darkness and torment. However, over time I've come to believe this wasn't the original message of Jesus and the apostles. For all of you spiritual seekers out there: I suggest you visit the following site:

http://www.lighthouselibrary.com

Select "Authors Directory" --> "All Authors" --> "V" --> "Van Assen, Dora". Read the book and take a look at the diagram. It explains a lot.
:lol: You have managed to poke at what is perhaps the biggest issue I struggle with. The writings of John Calvin. Understand that the ideas of election and predestination are found NOWHERE in the Gospel, and while they are clearly referenced in Ephesians, the idea of what is and isn't election is not covered, nor is the nature of who is elect, whether the "unelect" exist, or whether election means irresistible salvation. Calvin's ideas (And reformed theology as a whole) are based purely on conjecture, and in this man's opinion, a sense of general irresponsibility in the fate of the world

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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

Post by adrian9 » Mon May 09, 2011 5:10 pm

sorry did I miss something? :shock: this topic is so intense
A9

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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

Post by Stealth » Tue May 10, 2011 12:14 am

Ultimo Mordecai wrote:
Stealth wrote:
Ultimo Mordecai wrote:But yeah I agree with the seizuring dolphin, if you believe in any one religious entity, there is no logical way to denounce the existence of any deities in any religion, not even the flying spaghetti monster (ESPECIALLY the flying spaghetti monster! Lol)
Very true.

So you are from Edmonton? Go vote today! Unless you are planning on voting Conservative... If you are, stay home!!!
I'll be heading to the polling station soon. :D
NDP :)
Same here. :o

You must feel lonely being an NDP supporter in the Conservative stronghold that is Alberta.
If irony were made of strawberries, we'd all be drinking a lot of smoothies right now.

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Ultimo Mordecai
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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

Post by Ultimo Mordecai » Thu May 12, 2011 1:35 am

Haha maybe a bit, but I'm moving to BC soon :)

Anyways, here's a question to get things rolling:
What would you do in a world without money? If it were possible to live in a world where every need is met and every luxury is attainable at no cost, what do you think you would do?
Do you think you would just laze around getting fat and snorting crack?

Personally, I would go right back to research in a world like this. Without money, the single biggest annoyance to a researcher would be gone and I would be able to express my true creativity, and hopefully bring out some useful knowledge. Of course, I would probably spend an equal amount of time travelling and visiting natural wonders, and I've always dreamed of living amongst chimps and/or elephants for some amount of time...

Anyways, try and really be open minded about this: what would you do?
"If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the Universe."
-Carl Sagan

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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

Post by robocop656 » Thu May 12, 2011 1:55 am

You already answered your own question. This is the first thing everyone thinks of when they awake in the morning:

"I've always dreamed of living amongst chimps and/or elephants for some amount of time"

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Arnold D. Layne
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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

Post by Arnold D. Layne » Thu May 12, 2011 2:00 am

robocop656 wrote:You already answered your own question.
Who's that??

Arnold D. Layne

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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

Post by robocop656 » Thu May 12, 2011 2:02 am

Arnold D. Layne wrote:
robocop656 wrote:You already answered your own question.
Who's that??
Arnold D. Layne wrote:
robocop656 wrote:You already answered your own question.
Who's that??

Arnold D. Layne
Arnold D. Layne wrote:
robocop656 wrote:You already answered your own question.
Who's that??

Arnold D. Layne
Arnold D. Layne
Arnold D. Layne wrote:
robocop656 wrote:You already answered your own question.
Who's that??

Arnold D. Layne
You are your own question. We are your own question. Does it really inbetween for you? They don't always use the same amplifiers at the right distance between the mics. They are ready for you.

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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

Post by Arnold D. Layne » Thu May 12, 2011 2:45 am

robocop656 wrote:
Arnold D. Layne wrote:
robocop656 wrote:You already answered your own question.
Who's that??
Arnold D. Layne wrote:
robocop656 wrote:You already answered your own question.
Who's that??

Arnold D. Layne
Arnold D. Layne wrote:
robocop656 wrote:You already answered your own question.
Who's that??

Arnold D. Layne
Arnold D. Layne
Arnold D. Layne wrote:
robocop656 wrote:You already answered your own question.
Who's that??

Arnold D. Layne
You are your own question. We are your own question. .
????????????



????????????

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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

Post by mayhem-for-all » Thu May 12, 2011 6:19 am

I had a 15 page discussion on the subject at HF forum so be prepared since I am going to enter this discussion too.
But before I go any deeper a taster fo what is to come:
Image

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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

Post by browneyedgirl » Thu May 12, 2011 7:46 am

Paris Hilton answered this question by making porno movies, acting silly, and writing books that never sold.
Donald Trump answered that question by driving everyone nuts, getting a signature hairstyle, and deciding to run for President, maybe.
Howard Hughes answered that question by becoming so paranoid he never left his house, and with that money he did not have to.
The list can go on, but I think anyone can see the point.

As for me, I'd simply be happy that if all my needs were met I'd be able to take care of it if I got sick, I'd be able to spend all the time I wanted with my family, and I could travel, read, and just be confident the money is there when I'd need it. Sounds simple, but that's what I'd do. :)

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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

Post by Rebel » Thu May 12, 2011 8:09 am

mayhem-for-all wrote:I had a 15 page discussion on the subject at HF forum so be prepared since I am going to enter this discussion too.
But before I go any deeper a taster fo what is to come:
Image
I can summarize and dismiss every single one of these "issues" you find with God because you're creating your idea of a flawed God in your head and attacking that. But you have no idea who or what God really is. I on the other hand, come to God as He presents himself. It's not about what I want, or my ideas, but what part of the plan I can be.

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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

Post by robocop656 » Thu May 12, 2011 12:47 pm

Rebel wrote:I can summarize and dismiss every single one of these "issues" you find with God because you're creating your idea of a flawed God in your head and attacking that. But you have no idea who or what God really is. I on the other hand, come to God as He presents himself. It's not about what I want, or my ideas, but what part of the plan I can be.
You are controlled by fear.

If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for a reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed. -Einstein


Why should we wait for whatever empty rewards the greed-driven world will vomit up for us, formulated only as the crass monetary and materially poisoned 'fruits of our labor'?- and why should we slave away our days dedicating our hearts and heads to hollow religious fictions that promise everything only upon death- when such rewards, strengths, and possibilities already reside within us now, begging to be set free if only we would pull the filth away from out eyes and embrace it?

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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

Post by mayhem-for-all » Thu May 12, 2011 2:34 pm

But you have no idea who or what God really is
So you and only you know the truth?
Thats argument is simply weak. I could just as well say that you are wrong because I am always right.

How do you know what God is like and why would he trick me into not believing in him if he wants me to and on top of all things why does anything happening on earth really matter to him. If he is almighty he could just as well make us do so. If he doesn't want us to do something then why create sin or make us able to do so.
It's not about what I want, or my ideas, but what part of the plan I can be.
Yeah right. You just chose an alloving and almighty god instead of a bitter and sadistic demon. If there indeed is a supernatural being then how do you know he is not tricking us into thinking he is good and almighty?

Nietzsche thought people like the bible because there is something for everyone. The poor get of of a paradise waiting for them and don't bother trying to take care of their problems. The same goes for all. The bible has that kind of parts for everyone.
Yet the reasons to trust bible as an authority are just as good as trusting any other book of that era. If I had written a book about invisible flamingoes in those days you should logically believe it.

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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

Post by Stealth » Thu May 12, 2011 4:07 pm

Ultimo Mordecai wrote:Haha maybe a bit, but I'm moving to BC soon :)
Sorry to continue off-topic, but where in BC? I'm in Toronto now, but moving to Vancouver in August (maybe September).
If irony were made of strawberries, we'd all be drinking a lot of smoothies right now.

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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

Post by Rebel » Thu May 12, 2011 6:31 pm

mayhem-for-all wrote:
But you have no idea who or what God really is
So you and only you know the truth?
Thats argument is simply weak. I could just as well say that you are wrong because I am always right.
Conjecture again. God's character is revealed through His word, but you create a different image in your mind.
How do you know what God is like and why would he trick me into not believing in him if he wants me to and on top of all things why does anything happening on earth really matter to him
If he is almighty he could just as well make us do so. If he doesn't want us to do something then why create sin or make us able to do so.
He is almighty, and all loving, and it is for that reason that He wants us to make the choice to come to Him, without that choice, why bother creating us in the first place?
Yeah right. You just chose an alloving and almighty god instead of a bitter and sadistic demon. If there indeed is a supernatural being then how do you know he is not tricking us into thinking he is good and almighty?
Guess we don't, but then, you'll never know.
Nietzsche thought people like the bible because there is something for everyone. The poor get of of a paradise waiting for them and don't bother trying to take care of their problems. The same goes for all. The bible has that kind of parts for everyone.
The Bible should offer both reassurance, but a deep uncomfort as well. It's uncomfortable not because it's wrong, but because it challenges our failings that we are comfortable with.
Yet the reasons to trust bible as an authority are just as good as trusting any other book of that era. If I had written a book about invisible flamingoes in those days you should logically believe it.
Except the statements in those books are corroborated in other, independent, non-biased sources, confirming at least the greater historical impact of Jesus, something that would have been impossible if he was just some raving lunatic who couldn't do anything that was claimed of Him.

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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

Post by adrian9 » Thu May 12, 2011 7:07 pm

it is rebel catholic? who knew!?
A9

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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

Post by Rebel » Thu May 12, 2011 8:43 pm

adrian9 wrote:it is rebel catholic? who knew!?
Nope, the catholic church irks me, not as much as the reformed church, but I still disagree with their theology. My home church is Episcopalian, but I tend to be more general non-denominational.

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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

Post by browneyedgirl » Fri May 13, 2011 4:18 am

Rebel, I, and a few others are the minority in this forum who believe in God, the Bible, and that Jesus existed to set people free from the bondage of sin. I never push my beliefs on anyone, and hopefully I will not ever fall into the trap as many of agnostics and atheists do of ridiculing and trying to pick apart the other sides beliefs. America is a free country, not just for the ones who do not believe but also for those of us who choose to believe and are not ashamed of it no matter how hard the other side tries to make us feel that way.
You are free to pick apart what I posted. I don't give a shit. :P

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