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Is this based on what I said? I had no idea that there were others here who did the same, except for, maybe, one or two other users. 
Good point. Yeah, in the US, it tends to be looked down upon. Personally, I don't really care where, or with whom, people are living. The way I see it, it's very economical to share the household with others. The biggest plus is I don't have to pay my own property tax (in states that actually have property tax... NJ has the highest in the nation, I believe...
)Property tax, plus rent, utilities, groceries... It's actually a lot if you add it all up. I don't look down at somebody for living with their parents, since I think it could be very economical and practical under many circumstances.ZenithMC wrote: ↑Fri Oct 02, 2020 9:48 pmGood point. Yeah, in the US, it tends to be looked down upon. Personally, I don't really care where, or with whom, people are living. The way I see it, it's very economical to share the household with others. The biggest plus is I don't have to pay my own property tax (in states that actually have property tax... NJ has the highest in the nation, I believe...
I have no idea bro.
). Although I will have to repay the favor for my parents, which is alright with me.
Well I'll be...AAAAAAAAAA wrote: ↑Fri Oct 02, 2020 10:45 pmAs I recall, Flavio also lives with his parents. So there you have it, everyone here is either living with their mom or is wholly or partially being supported by her
I thought I was one of the only ones here who was living with their parents. Guess I was wrong.Maybe Pancio (Italian jesus) is the only independent one?ZenithMC wrote: ↑Sat Oct 03, 2020 3:16 amWell I'll be...AAAAAAAAAA wrote: ↑Fri Oct 02, 2020 10:45 pmAs I recall, Flavio also lives with his parents. So there you have it, everyone here is either living with their mom or is wholly or partially being supported by her
I think moving out and being independent is cool when you're 18 because somehow you're convincing yourself you're a legitimate adult. At my age I don't really care. Been there done that and its more trouble than it's worth.robocop wrote: ↑Sat Oct 03, 2020 9:22 pmAnybody have failed attempts at being independent? I lived in NY for a month trying to start a band in 2005. (Did not work..LOL!)
Didn't have money for food and gas. Worked at Target at the Pallisades Mall in New Jersey. I felt high as a kite moving out. Still...
Epic fail!
(CRINGE. Sorry.)
I've never tried, myself, and for a good reason... I'd need to get a job and I don't want to!
I don't want to sell myself into servitude where I have no time to enjoy my life, only slave away at work while barely making ends meet. Sounds like a terrible existence to me. 
Hell, even if I got lucky and became very successful, financially, I'd still not buy a property for myself. I'm very frugal! Okay, if I had to buy a property, I wouldn't choosing anything too fancy.What type of job would you go for, Z? If you tell yourself this is your last day working at this one particular job, then that job sucks.ZenithMC wrote: ↑Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:35 amI've never tried, myself, and for a good reason... I'd need to get a job and I don't want to!
I had 3 previous jobs where I said this to myself constantly and promptly quit. Even though I enjoyed bonding with my coworkers, there was only one job that I really really enjoyed. It can get repetitive after a while, but you start to appreciate how much money you start saving. Furthermore the stress levels really go down when you have a stable income. Having health insurance is also a plus.Its so hard to find fulfillment working for others. Especially if your career is a big corporation with lots of smart people trying to clobber each other all the time.NeverendingAbyss wrote: ↑Sun Oct 04, 2020 2:08 amWhat type of job would you go for, Z? If you tell yourself this is your last day working at this one particular job, then that job sucks.ZenithMC wrote: ↑Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:35 amI've never tried, myself, and for a good reason... I'd need to get a job and I don't want to!
Whatever job that I decide to create for myself. I only wish to work on what interests me and I do not wish to work for somebody just for a paycheck. There needs to be passion involved, otherwise I'll be completely miserable.
Working on recording my album was also not a real job. They treated me like I wasn't doing anything important. They did not respect my schedule and instead asked me to drop everything and help them with something. Then, they get offended when I tell them I'm busy working. God damn it... 
"Get a job, Son... but if we need you to do something, then do our task instead." It's funny and sad at the same time...I live a relatively stress-free life as it is, minus the stressful situations my parents like to create. I've found that the best way to mitigate that source of stress is to make myself scarce around them.NeverendingAbyss wrote: ↑Sun Oct 04, 2020 2:08 amFurthermore the stress levels really go down when you have a stable income. Having health insurance is also a plus.
Well, it goes without saying that if they are your parents and they are covering your rent, groceries, bills, and pocket money (or some subset of those), you do (morally) owe them something, in light of the vast benefits you receive.ZenithMC wrote: ↑Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:35 amWhatever job that I decide to create for myself. I only wish to work on what interests me and I do not wish to work for somebody just for a paycheck. There needs to be passion involved, otherwise I'll be completely miserable.
I've never had a paying job. I've been a musician for 10 years and a composer for 12 years. However, according to my parents, those aren't real jobs, because I didn't get paid to write music, practice instruments, &c.
Nobody wants to do that, but at the same time- that's what most of us have to do. After all, you wouldn't have that roof over your head if your father hadn't. Imagine if after you were born, he pursued passion projects for the next few decades instead? His work seems miserable, but people have toiled in incredibly brutal conditions for tens of thousands of years for much, much less.I just don't want to end up like my father, who had a family to support and raise, and thus, had to stick with his sickeningly stressful job while dealing with his incompetent schmuck co-workers and irascible conceited clientele for over 30 years. Every day he comes home from work, he acts like he wants to shove his head into a wall.
I'm indebted to them more than just morally, actually.AAAAAAAAAA wrote: ↑Sun Oct 04, 2020 6:21 amWell, it goes without saying that if they are your parents and they are covering your rent, groceries, bills, and pocket money (or some subset of those), you do (morally) owe them something, in light of the vast benefits you receive.
I need to pay off my recording equipment.So it's a hobby unless money is exchanged? I'm sorry, but I just do not see it that way. Hard work is hard work. I don't discriminate or try to find a distinction for it.AAAAAAAAAA wrote: ↑Sun Oct 04, 2020 6:21 amIf you've been a musician/composer for 12 years and haven't made serious money or released a formidable catalogue of music, it would not remiss to say this is really a hobby that could lead to a career, rather than your actual livelihood with a busy touring schedule, clients, etc.
I didn't want to book sessions in a studio. I'd be too nervous around the staff to perform my parts well; I need to do this stuff alone. 
I think it's completely inappropriate. How am I supposed to work towards my career if they keep preventing me from working and treating my work as a hobby?AAAAAAAAAA wrote: ↑Sun Oct 04, 2020 6:21 amSo without me having a full understanding of the situation, its not that inappropriate for your parents to treat your work as a hobby (for now) right? Of course their perspective could change if you release and successfully promote the material demonstrating its commercial viability, and have to structure your work schedule in a way that does not handle interruptions well.
It's not like I can just leave and record my album elsewhere. Actually, this is why I had to move all of my recording equipment into my room, so they don't see me down stairs on the couch with guitar in hand and equipment on and think that I'm doing fuck all. "Son, turn that down, we can't hear the TV." (they're in a different room than me) I can't change their minds if I "release and successfully promote the material demonstrating its commercial viability" until it's actually finished; it's paradoxical.My father should have found a job that he really loved before they decided to have me. This is why I don't want to have kids until I know that I have a job that brings me joy, is stable and secure, and pays me well enough to support my family and future children. I simply will not settle for less.AAAAAAAAAA wrote: ↑Sun Oct 04, 2020 6:29 amNobody wants to do that, but at the same time- that's what most of us have to do. After all, you wouldn't have that roof over your head if your father hadn't. Imagine if after you were born, he pursued passion projects for the next few decades instead? His work seems miserable, but people have toiled in incredibly brutal conditions for tens of thousands of years for much, much less.
Very true!AAAAAAAAAA wrote: ↑Sun Oct 04, 2020 6:29 amNow we have the privilege of saying, 'but the work isn't fun!". I don't blame you at all though, because your attitude is very similar to my own. I think both of us don't do those things because we don't have to. In your case, your parents don't force you- so why would you? The incentive structure isn't there.
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/hobby
I think you are on the right path, but you just need to make the next step. I can't tell you what that is since it's not my field of expertise. Have you talked to any other band members about their careers and how they started? Make connections and hopefully you'll get an answer.How am I supposed to work towards my career if they keep preventing me from working and treating my work as a hobby?
I used to say the same about my father. He should have done this, he should have done that. The truth is that your father loves you even if he has some shortcomings. I'll agree, you have to be ready before you have kids. However, note how he has supported you over the years. He has no obligation to take care of you after you turn 18. Be grateful for what he has given to you.My father should have found a job that he really loved before they decided to have me. This is why I don't want to have kids until I know that I have a job that brings me joy, is stable and secure, and pays me well enough to support my family and future children. I simply will not settle for less.
It's a lot of work. Playing video games, for me, is a hobby. It is fun and relaxing, and it doesn't exhaust me like recording does. Listening to music is also a hobby. I can just sit back, chill out, and not lift a finger doing it. Note that the definition of occupation does not necessitate payment in exchange for the work. Work is work. Period.Yes, as mentioned by A10 and robocop in a different thread, the Strato guys are busy working on other things in the mean time. Matias is busy producing other bands' albums, Rolf has a service as a drum tutor, &c... As for me, I'm not in a position where I need to pay bills. I have no living expenses. I can pursue artistic endeavors with no repercussions. I plan on selling my music once finished, of course. That leads me to the next point...NeverendingAbyss wrote: ↑Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:48 pmI am sure that any of the Strato guys will tell you that they would rather find a job than to create something that has no income especially when there are bills to be paid. See the current situation. They're not working on the album until the pandemic ends because they rely on tours for income.
Well, once my album is recorded and fully mixed & mastered, I can promote it, sell it, and profit from it. People can listen to my album and if they like the way it was produced, I'll offer to produce their albums, if they wish. It will open up several new opportunities for me. Then, I'll be able to afford a separate space to record my subsequent records.
This is not a question of love. Despite our somewhat distant relationship, he obviously loves me otherwise he would've kicked my ass to the curb years ago. It is about making prudent decisions. He may have had to suffer through his aggravating job to support me, but I do not wish to have to do the same. Believe me, I'm not a snot-nosed-gimme-gimme kind of guy. In addition to paying back every penny that was spent on my equipment, if things work out for me, I've already promised to help him retire from his crappy employment and live the rest of his life in comfort.NeverendingAbyss wrote: ↑Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:48 pmI used to say the same about my father. He should have done this, he should have done that. The truth is that your father loves you even if he has some shortcomings. I'll agree, you have to be ready before you have kids. However, note how he has supported you over the years. He has no obligation to take care of you after you turn 18. Be grateful for what he has given to you.
Well, by that definition- playing Minecraft very intensively for ten hours a day could be considered a job. Your case is a bit different though, because you are aspiring to make money later and doing the legwork now. As you say, there is some barrier to entry in the music world.ZenithMC wrote: ↑Sun Oct 04, 2020 3:54 pmSo it's a hobby unless money is exchanged? I'm sorry, but I just do not see it that way. Hard work is hard work. I don't discriminate or try to find a distinction for it. [...I think it's completely inappropriate. How am I supposed to work towards my career if they keep preventing me from working and treating my work as a hobby?
Your sentiment is admirable but what you're asking for is too idealistic. There would be no janitors, dentists (I know...), cashiers, and insurance agents if we all had the mindset that loving our job and being fulfilled from it would be a prerequisite. We would all end up being musicians, artists, dancers, and chefs, which is great except we need so much more to keep our society moving forward.ZenithMC wrote: ↑Sun Oct 04, 2020 3:54 pmMy father should have found a job that he really loved before they decided to have me. This is why I don't want to have kids until I know that I have a job that brings me joy, is stable and secure, and pays me well enough to support my family and future children. I simply will not settle for less.
If I may add a piece of advice, take advantage of that but don't get too comfortable. Life can change on a whim as we have seen with COVID. I too enjoyed that part of life, but I quickly found myself in need to find a job to help the family right after the recession. After a week of graduating from HS, my dad found a job for me at a warehouse. I hated working there and I had to take the bus (1.5 hr trip since I had to make 3 connections), but the money made meant we could pay rent for another month.
That's fine and all, but my sentiment pertains to me and me alone. There are people who have, and will, settle for less. However, those that are uncompromising tend to have enormous egos, like yours truly, and become artists instead.AAAAAAAAAA wrote: ↑Sun Oct 04, 2020 7:56 pmYour sentiment is admirable but what you're asking for is too idealistic. There would be no janitors, dentists (I know...), cashiers, and insurance agents if we all had the mindset that loving our job and being fulfilled from it would be a prerequisite. We would all end up being musicians, artists, dancers, and chefs, which is great except we need so much more to keep our society moving forward.
There's always something going wrong. Too much noise outside, too hot & humid inside for my equipment, &c. Can only record during the day due to noise concerns. Needing new strings, having to redo takes because of production errors or hardware errors, rehearsing my parts &c. On top of it all is having to do the job of many (such as in a studio) as a single person. I did have a schedule at one point, but keeping on track was ruined due to heat and humidity concerns.AAAAAAAAAA wrote: ↑Sun Oct 04, 2020 7:56 pmI suppose its impossible for me to weigh in without knowing exactly what they are asking of you and in what way they are imposing upon you. It might seem that if you've had your recording equipment for several years and have not released an album yet, your progress hasn't been swift. But you mentioned earlier that you find it challenging to complete things on a schedule, so it might be some combination of your parents intervention and your own proclivities. Maybe the problem with your parents is a communication issue? For example, maybe outlining a structured schedule of what you hope to accomplish and by when would help them see things from your perspective, while also keeping yourself honest.
Well, if they enjoy doing those jobs, what's the problem? Are they complaining about it on a daily basis or no? Are they actually miserable doing those jobs or do you just think they are miserable because you think they're miserable jobs? Maybe providing for their families is what brings them the most joy and they'd do any job in order to achieve that. And, again, it was their decisions to have families in the first place. They became obligated to support their families because of their own decisions. Would I come off as arrogant and entitled for saying that I wish not to do those tasks? If I do, then so be it. I would never say "sucks for you! you couldn't find a job that brings you joy!" I don't even know their genuine feelings about their jobs, so that would be me making assumptions, anyway. Listen, all you need to know is that I'm a little bitch who's picky about the jobs I'm willing to partake in.AAAAAAAAAA wrote: ↑Sun Oct 04, 2020 7:56 pmI used to live in a poor neighborhood, mostly Hispanic, and one time I went to the nearby 7-11 at nearly 6AM. I was shocked: it was totally packed, with a huge line of people getting their morning coffee before heading off to work in a miserable job they are more than happy to do (janitors, cleaning crew, construction, restaurant). Meanwhile, I sitting around at home jacking off to Carls Jr commercials (just kidding but you know what i mean). No minimum wage for these folks, no benefits. Just doing everything they can to make ends meet for themselves and their families. You can't tell these people, "sucks for you! you couldn't find a job that brings you joy!". It would seem incredibly arrogant and entitled.
Oh my god! You weren't kidding when you said that the below would seem incredibly harsh or unfair. That fucking hurt me a little!AAAAAAAAAA wrote: ↑Sun Oct 04, 2020 7:56 pmImagine if I were to step inside your father's mind and try to imagine what he is thinking about the situation. Disclaimer: if the below seems incredibly harsh or unfair, it probably is. I'm not claiming the below as reality, but instead how your parents might see the situation:
Your father toils in an unfulfilling job to provide for his family. Rather than earning appreciation or respect for his sacrifice, we downplay his efforts on the grounds that its really his choice and a reflection of his failure to find a fulfilling job. Kind of adding insult to injury, isn't it? Meanwhile, his son is bumming around on the couch doing N64 speedruns and sporadically recording music with no real sense of urgency to monetize, become independent, or contribute back to the family. Attempts to ask him to do family chores backfire badly on the grounds that they are disrupting his schedule, even though by his own admission it would take him forever to release his music even without said disruptions.
Again, not saying the above is true, but that's what might be going on in his head. Anyway, i'm not here to lambast or criticize you. I have heard your music and know you have great talent and potential. Looking forward to seeing you get what you deserve. I still think my earlier suggestion to outline a timeline of what you plan to accomplish and by when, in as specific terms as possible, with financial projections, would help your parents understand your gameplan (while also keeping you on track).
In my defense, I was right in the middle of doing a bass guitar take when they asked me to help them out, and they knew it, too. And, if it wasn't my father's choice, then who's was it? Who's responsible for the job he has now? I am known to play the vidyas often... Your suggestions are valuable, though. Thanks for those! 
I know. I love you guys. I'd give you all a hug if I could.NeverendingAbyss wrote: ↑Sun Oct 04, 2020 8:38 pmAnyway, don't think we are attacking you or anything. You're part of the forum and we just like to see members doing well.
Sorry if I was unclear. I meant they are miserable jobs by the standards of us spoiled suburbanites. I didn't mean to imply that they are miserable doing those jobs (necessarily). For them its a struggle for survival and they just do what they need to do for their families- its not about soul searching and finding fulfillment.
Definitely not arrogant. Entitled, maybe a bit (but only in the strictest sense of the word and not in a condescending way). I mean, lets face it, you don't have to work those jobs because of your parents support- I wouldn't expect you or someone in your position to do that.ZenithMC wrote: ↑Sun Oct 04, 2020 9:18 pmWould I come off as arrogant and entitled for saying that I wish not to do those tasks? If I do, then so be it. I would never say "sucks for you! you couldn't find a job that brings you joy!" I don't even know their genuine feelings about their jobs, so that would be me making assumptions, anyway. Listen, all you need to know is that I'm a little bitch who's picky about the jobs I'm willing to partake in.
Ok, my bad.ZenithMC wrote: ↑Sun Oct 04, 2020 9:18 pmOh my god! You weren't kidding when you said that the below would seem incredibly harsh or unfair. That fucking hurt me a little!
I probably went a bit overboard there and I apologize. Anyway, it was meant to be an autistic mental exercise of the structural underpinnings of your parental conflict, more than an indictment of your character. Sorry if I missed the mark there.Yeah, he is ultimately responsible for his situation, I can't deny that. I just don't think of his situation as some kind of blundered attempt at career, a product of miscalculations or a lack of ambition, vision, or foresight. I think his circumstances are the status quo for almost all working people, and very few will break out of that. We just need to recognize and appreciate the sacrifices our parents made, that's all I was trying to say. Of course, not trying to imply that you don't.
That is true, we always complain about our lives when others have the worst. We should always be gratefulrobocop wrote: ↑Mon Oct 05, 2020 11:19 amI don't have anything to add here other than sometimes we forget lots and lots of people DO NOT have the choice of wanting to pursue things they love. Either due to both parents deceased having no support system, or maybe they kicked them to the curb. All I mean is be grateful for what you have now and what skills you have, some people are in absolute hell. (Not down playing things, it is just something I try to remember.)
A10: the thing you said about the fail, at the time it felt like failure. I did not have my priorities in check. Long story.
I think it's rather (very) common in Finland to say that/see it that way.A10 wrote:Have you noticed that the term "living at home" is a euphemism for "with your mother"?