Stratovarius Community

http://www.walkenforpres.com/

Finally a candidate we can all get behind!


(Yeah, it's a hoax, but nevertheless)

I would vote for him.
He is one of my Fav actors. He has played everything from a Clairvoyant(Dead Zone)to a ruling Mob Kingpin(King of New York)and he does all very well!
He is also quite funny. And with those big expressive eyes of his!




I think he would do just as good a job as the one we have in office now!

But, shit, that was a joke site, wasn't it?

Christopher Walken is a great person, an amazing actor and also a very clever contemporary I think. My favourite movie that he plays in, is "Gods Army"



I would vote for him

Oh, I forgot to me!

Walken played the Archangel Gabriel in the Prophecy movies&at the end, he becomes human---he is a homeless guy playing his trumpet on a street for money!* Great actor in about all his jobs!


*There is probably some hidden message in that.

I hope that some sunny day Arnold Schwarzenegger is the president!

Stratofanius wrote:I hope that some sunny day Arnold Schwarzenegger is the president!

And the prophecy that happened on Demolition man with Stallone will come true

Stratofanius wrote:I hope that some sunny day Arnold Schwarzenegger is the president!

Then he will make Physical Education a required subject in USA high schools again!
Or, Austrian a required language!

alsta la vista, baby!

I'll be back!

there is no such thing as "Austrian" they speak German.....

no, the nazi man would totally nuke Mexico if he were president, he already tried to close the border the uptight bastard!

Lets just elect Anna Nicole or Pamela A. President&just pack it in&give up! USA is doomed anyway! :uzi:

BOOYA coming from an american nonetheless

Just because CC is from the United States of America, that doesn't mean she is the supreme authority on everything that happens in the USA. Liberals always tend to speak out against their country suprisingly often. I for one dont' think it is right to criticize your country so harshly in an international forum where everyone is trying to look for an excuse to bash USA anyway.

What ever happened to being proud of your country? Finnish people are so proud of Finland, just listen to the Land of Ice and Snow! CC, why can't you say something nice about the country which has blessed you with so many opportunities. My family arrived at the United States many many years ago now with only $200 and we are now living comfortably and well. I owe it all to the United States for giving me the chance I never had in my country of origin.

fifthtea_sausage wrote:Just because CC is from the United States of America, that doesn't mean she is the supreme authority on everything that happens in the USA.

I don't think anyone has claimed she is though.

Liberals always tend to speak out against their country suprisingly often.

And why shouldn't they, if they feel something is wrong? Or is any complaint to be swept under the carpet and shrugged off as "USA bashing"?
And of course, during the 90s when the tables were turned, the conservatives sat idly by and didn't say a word while Osama bin Clinton wrecked havoc and nearly caused the apocalypse to occur. Not a word did the conservatives say, not a word! Give me a break. If you disagree with the policies of your government, it's your damn duty to say so!

I for one dont' think it is right to criticize your country so harshly in an international forum where everyone is trying to look for an excuse to bash USA anyway.

Oh come on, that's bull and you know it. I, for one, don't bash any country, but I will criticize the policies of your government when I feel they are wrong, and I do believe I have laid out in reasonably great detail why I feel they are wrong.
But are you seriously going to deny that by virtue of being the lone superpower on earth, anything and everything the US does can and will have tremendous - yes, sometimes disastrous - consequences in any given corner of the globe? Are you furthermore going to deny that people abroad might have legitimate complaints about how the US, and specifically the current administration, wields its influence in the world? Is it your sincere belief that the US exists in a vacuum and that when the US acts in its own self-interest, even if it's not malicious or intentional, it's unreasonable to think it may have a negative impact on some other country?
Or is it all just bashing to you?

What ever happened to being proud of your country? Finnish people are so proud of Finland, just listen to the Land of Ice and Snow!

Oh, bullcrap. I'm neither proud nor ashamed of being Finnish. I'm fortunate and glad that I was born here and not into poverty in a "developing" country, but I'm proud of my own accomplishments and those of my family and friends.
And yes, I criticize certain aspects of Finnish society and the Finnish government when I feel there is something wrong. Not only is it my right to do so, it is my obligation. And it annoys me to no end when people in this forum and elsewhere proclaims Finland to be heaven on earth, by virtue of having a few more metal bands than some other country x.
And yes, I criticize the policies and governments of other countries when I feel they are wrong. It doesn't make me anti-Russian to claim that Generalissimo Putin is, in fact, an a-hole. It doesn't make me anti-EU or anti-Chinese to think selling weapons to China is a stupid ass idea.

CC, why can't you say something nice about the country which has blessed you with so many opportunities.

I don't know CC personally, but maybe she doesn't have an incessant need to constantly reaffirm her patriotism? I mean, sheesh, I don't think the Finnish society will suddenly collapse because I have the audacity to disagree with the government's stance on student grants, as opposed to me waving a Finnish flag and praying at the altar of Marshal Mannerheim every morning.

My family arrived at the United States many many years ago now with only $200 and we are now living comfortably and well. I owe it all to the United States for giving me the chance I never had in my country of origin.

That's great and all, but it hasn't worked out that great for everybody, whether it be in the US, in Finland, in France, in Germany, in the UK, most of the African continent or elsewhere. And by denying people the right to criticize, you're taking away a very important tool for enabling improvement.
Heck, the right for people to bitch about things they don't like is the fundamental principle of any functioning democracy.

Yes, I am a Liberal-leaning person--am I supposed to be ashamed of that just because we have a conservative administration?
You know, in the 60s&70s it was fashionable to be a liberal--then, with the election of Reagan all that slowly changed. Nowadays, in some circles, if you say you are a liberal, a person is met with ridicule&angst. I always thought a person was free to believe in what political affiliation they wanted?

And, I do not bash the USA--as a matter of fact, the government college-funds which were started by a liberal administration(Johnson)helped me get what education I have. And, when I get old, the same liberal administration(Roosevelt)will help provide my livelihood via Social Security&Medicare. Also, the government provides highways, and other services that I am thankful for. So, just because I do not kiss the government's ass, do not paint me as an extremist against my government!
I think we all have a right to criticize the government policies we do not agree with.
After all, I bet you thought it was OK when Clinton was criticized about HIS policies, didn't you?

I rest my case!


Great topic!

if fiftheas comment was directed at me, i never said she had any power or sort of, i meant that she as an american (how i hate to use that term ) is acknolewdging how fucked up the american culture (:x!!) is right now

stratoplayer wrote:if fiftheas comment was directed at me, i never said she had any power or sort of, i meant that she as an american (how i hate to use that term ) is acknolewdging how fucked up the american culture (:x!!) is right now

AMEN! That is exactly what I meant!
And, I do not pretend to be an authority on politics or anything else for that matter! If I were, I'd be making my living in some cushy job--like the government, for example!
I am against the Iraqi war for personal reasons--my son is prime draft age&if anybody watches the news, they know most of the casualties are guys 19, 20, and 21 years old. Probably lots of these boys did not even agree with the war themselves, but maybe went to get a college grant, or to fulfill their National Guard duties, to better themselves&make more money. Actually, it has been proven that the majority of the volunteer army are from mainly poor families. A hungry belly is a strong driving force to work, and some of these guys the military was the only work&hope they had.

Lets just elect Anna Nicole or Pamela A. President&just pack it in&give up! USA is doomed anyway

Though this statement isn't a catastrophe in itself, when this is the attitude i"m constantly presented when reading CC's posts, it really makes me wonder if she is proud to be an American or not.

I don't think anyone has claimed she is though.

Stratoplayers comment "BOOYA coming from an american" after CC said USA is screwed is what I was referring to. Just because she says it and is from USA, doesn't mean she represents USA as a whole.

And why shouldn't they, if they feel something is wrong? Or is any complaint to be swept under the carpet and shrugged off as "USA bashing"?

And of course, during the 90s when the tables were turned, the conservatives sat idly by and didn't say a word while Osama bin Clinton wrecked havoc and nearly caused the apocalypse to occur. Not a word did the conservatives say, not a word! Give me a break. If you disagree with the policies of your government, it's your damn duty to say so!

If there is something wrong, you can complain. But I do not support saying your country is screwed in a two sentence post when the overall tone seems to dictate that you don't care about your country and you're just saying screw this, I'm staying here for the social security...

Sure its fine that the conservatives made a racket during the 1990s. But a conservative would rarely make posts dicatating the tone: i don't like my country, we're all going to hell. They'd perhaps say that they find our president to be intolerable, as the liberals do now, but they would not bash the fundamentals of the country.

Are you furthermore going to deny that people abroad might have legitimate complaints about how the US, and specifically the current administration, wields its influence in the world?

I'm not going to deny the people abroad the right to disagree with the Americans. But I've spent some time on these forums trying to convince a few people otherwise who thought that the 9/11 attacks were staged. Some people here really do not know whats going on, and it does frusterate me when they criticize the country when their criticizm is fueled only by propoganda.

And I am all for complaining against your country, but there is a limit people. Just because x party didn't win, that doesn't mean you can say such things about your country! Perhaps your current administration, but the statement should not connote the tone that you hate America. If you're a citizen, that is. if you aren't an American, and you hate America, thats more acceptable to me...

And yes, I criticize the policies and governments of other countries when I feel they are wrong. It doesn't make me anti-Russian to claim that Generalissimo Putin is, in fact, an a-hole.

Yes, I understand, but saying that USA is doomed anyway followed by a smily shooting a gun does not even nearly lead me to believe that the person who wrote this otherwise respects her country.

I don't know CC personally, but maybe she doesn't have an incessant need to constantly reaffirm her patriotism? I mean, sheesh, I don't think the Finnish society will suddenly collapse because I have the audacity to disagree with the government's stance on student grants, as opposed to me waving a Finnish flag and praying at the altar of Marshal Mannerheim every morning.

ONCE again, enough is enough. There is a difference between being blindly patriotic regardless of your countries mistakes (supposed..) then making a statement connoting that tone I have discussed already.

And, I do not bash the USA--as a matter of fact, the government college-funds which were started by a liberal administration(Johnson)helped me get what education I have. And, when I get old, the same liberal administration(Roosevelt)will help provide my livelihood via Social Security&Medicare. Also, the government provides highways, and other services that I am thankful for. So, just because I do not kiss the government's ass, do not paint me as an extremist against my government!

Oh so you are thankful because of the varius government welfare programs, you leech? And way to cover up: you're thankful for the highways. See, its obvious enough when someone doesn't give a damn about their country. Thanks for the money...and oh nice job on the highways!

I think we all have a right to criticize the government policies we do not agree with.
After all, I bet you thought it was OK when Clinton was criticized about HIS policies, didn't you?

I may have lost a lot of respect for my president (though I supported him as a representative of the USA, we elected him together after all), but i didn't for a second turn my back on my country. That isn't to say that I thought he was the best candidate, but I supported my country during his presidency.

I rest my case!

Well done

if fiftheas comment was directed at me, i never said she had any power or sort of, i meant that she as an american (how i hate to use that term ) is acknolewdging how fucked up the american culture (!!) is right now

Until you improve your spelling and grammar to a reasonable point, I'm not going to read what you wrote. But judging by the number of angry smilies, I'll take it you're mad at me. Please calm down.

I am against the Iraqi war for personal reasons--my son is prime draft age&if anybody watches the news, they know most of the casualties are guys 19, 20, and 21 years old. Probably lots of these boys did not even agree with the war themselves, but maybe went to get a college grant, or to fulfill their National Guard duties, to better themselves&make more money.

Oh I see, ignore the principles of the war and instead focus on yourself only? What ever happened to taking a small risk for your country? Shame! Focus less on your son and more on the country.

And you are misguided if you think that you have to agree with a war to serve in the army. We chose on the war in Iraq together, and you had your say in voting (not directly but indirectly). So now that we're in this boat together, lets do what we have to do.

Thanks.

CottonCandy wrote:I would vote for him.

I think he would do just as good a job as the one we have in office now!

But, shit, that was a joke site, wasn't it?

If that's the case, then I'd pray he would never get elected.

I am against the Iraqi war for personal reasons--my son is prime draft age&if anybody watches the news, they know most of the casualties are guys 19, 20, and 21 years old. Probably lots of these boys did not even agree with the war themselves, but maybe went to get a college grant, or to fulfill their National Guard duties, to better themselves&make more money.

Oh I see, ignore the principles of the war and instead focus on yourself only? What ever happened to taking a small risk for your country? Shame! Focus less on your son and more on the country.

And you are misguided if you think that you have to agree with a war to serve in the army. We chose on the war in Iraq together, and you had your say in voting (not directly but indirectly). So now that we're in this boat together, lets do what we have to do. [/quote]

Having served in the military myself, i don't think it's a 'small' risk. The Iraq war is wrong, simple as that. I feel terrible for the soldiers there, and the families mourning their loss, who try to convince themselves that their children/husbands/fathers/brothers didn't die for nothing. I hate to say it, but they did. This is a stupid pointless war that could've EASILY been avoided. But no, Mr. Commando President (who deserted his own military duty) wanted to charge in there with all guns blazing, like a true cowboy.

How can he sleep at night

FifthTea, if you think this war is so justified, why don't you just volunteer your services and go!

And, you are damned right I am selfish when it comes to my kid--you'll be a parent one day, and you'll understand.......on second thought, skip it.....

BTW, there have been people on this Forum who have been VEHEMENTLY Anti-American--I'm sure the posts are still here--BUT, FifthTea, I NEVER saw you take THEM on. Why is that? Selective criticsm?

I'm not Anti-American, I'm Anti-GWB, I guess Anti-Republican as well. (Democrats aren't much better, bunch of spineless losers) I believe America is a great country that has been sold out by people wanting to make money before looking after the people, which is what their duty is.

The Founding Fathers would've been pretty pissed with the current administration. Not like the previous one was much better. Also, most of them claim to be devout Christians, while at the same time totally ignoring the teachings of Jesus.

The US government is overpopulated by a bunch of lying corrupt and morally bankrupt criminals who belong in jail, not in control of the country.

fifthtea_sausage wrote:Though this statement isn't a catastrophe in itself, when this is the attitude i"m constantly presented when reading CC's posts, it really makes me wonder if she is proud to be an American or not.

Okay, but does her alleged ashamedness make her opinion irrelevant, and if so, why?

Stratoplayers comment "BOOYA coming from an american" after CC said USA is screwed is what I was referring to. Just because she says it and is from USA, doesn't mean she represents USA as a whole.

Of course she doesn't, nor do I believe Stratoplayer was saying that. Nor do I pretend my opinions are shared by the whole Finnish population, small as it is. That would be like claiming all Muslims or Arabs are terrorists, and we all know that certainly isn't the case, don't we?

If there is something wrong, you can complain. But I do not support saying your country is screwed in a two sentence post when the overall tone seems to dictate that you don't care about your country and you're just saying screw this, I'm staying here for the social security...

So, in other words, if someone thinks everything is shit, rather than trying to understand why that someone feels that way, that someone should just shut up?

Sure its fine that the conservatives made a racket during the 1990s. But a conservative would rarely make posts dicatating the tone: i don't like my country, we're all going to hell. They'd perhaps say that they find our president to be intolerable, as the liberals do now, but they would not bash the fundamentals of the country.

Oh come on. You know damn well the rhetoric on the extreme conservative end is just as bad as on the extreme liberal one. This is not a partisan issue: people say stupid shit on both ends (and inbetween). Take congressmen John Cornyn and Tom Delay making ridiculous statements regarding the well-being of judges and "judicial activism". Now if that isn't "bashing the fundamentals of the country" (like, say, the separation of powers), I don't know what is.

I'm not going to deny the people abroad the right to disagree with the Americans. But I've spent some time on these forums trying to convince a few people otherwise who thought that the 9/11 attacks were staged. Some people here really do not know whats going on, and it does frusterate me when they criticize the country when their criticizm is fueled only by propoganda.

Aah, but you claimed this forum to be "an international forum where everyone is trying to look for an excuse to bash USA anyway" (emphasis mine).
Now, if people want to have crackpot theories about 9/11, by all means. But that wasn't what I was defending.

And I am all for complaining against your country, but there is a limit people. Just because x party didn't win, that doesn't mean you can say such things about your country! Perhaps your current administration, but the statement should not connote the tone that you hate America. If you're a citizen, that is. if you aren't an American, and you hate America, thats more acceptable to me...

I'm not sure I follow. Why is it unacceptable?

Yes, I understand, but saying that USA is doomed anyway followed by a smily shooting a gun does not even nearly lead me to believe that the person who wrote this otherwise respects her country.

You're certainly entitled to interpret people's posts as you please, but I got the impression you then proceeded to write in more general terms (such as "Liberals always tend to speak out against their country suprisingly often") than pertaining specifically to CC's post.

ONCE again, enough is enough. There is a difference between being blindly patriotic regardless of your countries mistakes (supposed..) then making a statement connoting that tone I have discussed already.

Eeh. So if I were to write an essay criticizing the elitist nature of Finnish society or perhaps the less-than-stellar Finnish involvement in WWII, I should reconsider doing so, because I'm connoting a tone when I wrote "elitist nature" and "less-than-stellar"?

Oh so you are thankful because of the varius government welfare programs, you leech?

Well, you oughta get something in return for paying taxes, right?

(though I supported him as a representative of the USA, we elected him together after all)

But that's bullcrap! You're not supposed to give elected officials the benefit of the doubt or support by virtue of being elected. And guess what? A large slew of conservatives didn't, even though it is now en vogue to avoid "emboldening the enemy."

but i didn't for a second turn my back on my country. That isn't to say that I thought he was the best candidate, but I supported my country during his presidency.

But did you support the policies of his administration or were you openly critical of them? That is the key question, not whether you supported your country or if you turned your back on it, whatever that means. You don't strike me as the kind of guy who would be selling blueprints of nuclear reactors to North Korea.

Oh I see, ignore the principles of the war and instead focus on yourself only? What ever happened to taking a small risk for your country? Shame! Focus less on your son and more on the country.

You're telling a mother to focus less on her son? Yeah, that'll play over well. You don't think that Cindy Sheehan character making the news lately is slightly, oh I don't know, pissed off about her son's death? I'd be kinda' pissed too if I had a child, sibling, spouse or parent returning in a casket or missing a limb or two, and it turns out the chances of them having to make that sacrifice would have been significantly smaller if some smart bureaucrat somewhere had given a bit more thought to how the occupation ought to function after the fall of Baghad. Oh yeah, and I would probably take issue what that whole overstating the threat Iraq poses to national security detail too. But then, I am quite selfish.
As for ignoring the principles of war...Abu Ghraib ring a bell?

And you are misguided if you think that you have to agree with a war to serve in the army. We chose on the war in Iraq together, and you had your say in voting (not directly but indirectly). So now that we're in this boat together, lets do what we have to do.

Well, I for one, would replace the captain with someone who knew how to read a compass, because the boat doesn't seem to be going in the right direction at the moment...

I want Tolkki for President!!!!

MetalAngel wrote:I want Tolkki for President!!!!

...of the United States of America?

Pikkusielu wrote:

MetalAngel wrote:I want Tolkki for President!!!!

...of the United States of America?

Why not? Schwarzie is on the way to be it!

MetalAngel wrote:I want Tolkki for President!!!!

And, Dave Mustaine for Vice-President! Then, it would be Heavy Metal USA 24/7! What a Life!

:sex1:
:headbang:

The Musicians Creed=The next Gettysburg Address!

Oh, I forgot--5thTea does not have a sense of humor, so we better watch ourselves.

Who is 5th Tea?

And, you are damned right I am selfish when it comes to my kid--you'll be a parent one day, and you'll understand.......on second thought, skip it.....

Understood and that makes you a good mother. But I think when discussing politics, your arguments against the war should be aimed more directly at other aspects of the situation rather than at your son. War is a horrible thing because it leads to death. Death is inevitable. But if you think about your son every time when it comes to war, chances are you're not going to be making a lot of correct decisions.

In any case, there isn't even a draft, so why make your son such a large part of your anti-war stance?

BTW, there have been people on this Forum who have been VEHEMENTLY Anti-American--I'm sure the posts are still here--BUT, FifthTea, I NEVER saw you take THEM on. Why is that

There are several reasons.
1. A lot of people on this forum are so off-track about the truths (claiming 9/11 is a hoax, etc) that it is ridiculus to, no matter how anti-american they are, have a decent discussion with them.
2. A lot of people resort to insults when it comes to an argument on the forums, instead of sticking to the facts and continuing to the discussion. I'm talking about say that \m/ killer guy out there who after hearing my political views started posting in every thread I posted with a nasty political or personal remark (not just the times when I made a statement myself).
3. I could go on, but there are a lot of things I have to discuss and I don't have much time today

Having served in the military myself, i don't think it's a 'small' risk. The Iraq war is wrong, simple as that.

First of all, the percentage of soldiers who went to Iraq and died is perhaps .8% or a similar figure to that. It really isn't as much a risk as you make it seem. And if the Iraq war is wrong, "simple as that", it really doesn't matter, because the country together chose, the congress chose, to fight.

Lets just assume for a second that there weren't ANY WMD's, a valid assumption too, considering the circumstance. And lets assume that Saddam wasn't all that big of a threat to the United States of America. Granted, for the sake of this argument. But what is so horrible about going and liberating a country from Saddam? Do you think he was a good man? Do you for a second think that invading Iraq and freeing the Iraqi's was a bad thing?

Maybe if it wasn't a threat to the US, it wasn't a practical move financially for the United States, but how can you say that the overall result of this war wasn't/isn't a good one? These people had an election, they're having a constitution, things are looking up and in a few years they'll be even able to take care of themselves.

So if one believes American soldiers going and liberating Iraq is that horrible a cause that one have to turn your back on the countries decision, I don't know what to say.

who deserted his own military duty

National Guard.

Okay, but does her alleged ashamedness make her opinion irrelevant, and if so, why?

It just goes to show that she doesn't respect her country. Thats all. I'm not saying it makes her opinion irrelevant, but it isn't a good thing to say.

Of course she doesn't, nor do I believe Stratoplayer was saying that.

I think if you take some time to really read what he said, you'll see thats exactly what he was saying.

So, in other words, if someone thinks everything is shit, rather than trying to understand why that someone feels that way, that someone should just shut up?

Its not my job to understand what she feels, its her job to explain it. But one should be a little more thorough when insulting her country, because someone might get the wrong idea. And I got the wrong idea. And it wasn't a wrong idea after all, it seems. It was correct, she hates USA.

Aah, but you claimed this forum to be "an international forum where everyone is trying to look for an excuse to bash USA anyway" (emphasis mine).
Now, if people want to have crackpot theories about 9/11, by all means. But that wasn't what I was defending.

It is a forum where everyone is looking for an excuse to bash the USA. Simply, in many cases (not all) that is fueled by international propoganda. I don't even know why we're arguing in the first place, nordicstorm. I don't know what you're defending. I suppose its CC.

I'm not sure I follow. Why is it unacceptable?

I find disagreeing with your countries policies acceptable. I find outright hating your country just because x didn't win unacceptable. Do you still need clarification on this?

Eeh. So if I were to write an essay criticizing the elitist nature of Finnish society or perhaps the less-than-stellar Finnish involvement in WWII, I should reconsider doing so, because I'm connoting a tone when I wrote "elitist nature" and "less-than-stellar"?

No, but having your essay say: "Finnish people are a bunch of communist losers, who amount to nothing. We can all go to hell" is wrong coming from a person who lives in Finland, born and raised. There is a distinct border between constructive criticism and outright hate for your country.

Well, you oughta get something in return for paying taxes, right?

Yes, but that should not be the only premise of you staying in the country.

You don't think that Cindy Sheehan character making the news lately is slightly, oh I don't know, pissed off about her son's death?

Don't even get me started on her! Oops too late.
She is a complete moron .
I mean what a selfish fool.
She was alright with her son going and fighting in Iraq when he was getting paid for it, but when something happened to him, the entire principles of the war turn upside down? Shame on her!

She doesn't realize that to do the right thing, you have to make a sacrifice. If she was so against the war, she shouldn't have encouraged her son to go to Iraq. And if she didn't encourage him and he went on his own free will even when she was against it, he died with honor and she should respect that.

She thinks that just because her son died, the USA should pull out of Iraq, effectively screwing the Iraqi population, having a regime worse than Hussein take over? Bush even met with her, what exactly does she want? She is a fool!

Oh, I forgot--5thTea does not have a sense of humor, so we better watch ourselves

Correct.
Hrm no, see this joke:
Ahh screw this, I have nothing.

yeah, considering the angry smilies were not even remotely intended for him... (or any particular person, who is alive, at any rate...)

I cant understand this topic!!!!

fifthtea_sausage wrote:

Having served in the military myself, i don't think it's a 'small' risk. The Iraq war is wrong, simple as that.

First of all, the percentage of soldiers who went to Iraq and died is perhaps .8% or a similar figure to that. It really isn't as much a risk as you make it seem. And if the Iraq war is wrong, "simple as that", it really doesn't matter, because the country together chose, the congress chose, to fight.

Lets just assume for a second that there weren't ANY WMD's, a valid assumption too, considering the circumstance. And lets assume that Saddam wasn't all that big of a threat to the United States of America. Granted, for the sake of this argument. But what is so horrible about going and liberating a country from Saddam? Do you think he was a good man? Do you for a second think that invading Iraq and freeing the Iraqi's was a bad thing?

Maybe if it wasn't a threat to the US, it wasn't a practical move financially for the United States, but how can you say that the overall result of this war wasn't/isn't a good one? These people had an election, they're having a constitution, things are looking up and in a few years they'll be even able to take care of themselves.

So if one believes American soldiers going and liberating Iraq is that horrible a cause that one have to turn your back on the countries decision, I don't know what to say.

who deserted his own military duty

National Guard.

Oh, okay, so National Guard service doesn't count as serving one's country right? You can just pack up and leave. Sure.

Okay, what about wounded US soldiers? Lost arms, legs, hands, paralysed, life-altering injuries, permanent disfigurations... for what?

Congress chose.. because maybe congress was LIED to hmm? Where's all this 'ground breaking evidence' we're waiting for? There were no WMDs. The WMDs were just a boogeyman to scare people into thinking action was necessary. The American people were blatantly lied to. Do you honestly believe that ANYONE would've supported this war had there not been the bullshit beforehand? If they knew nothing was there?

Liberating a country? Freeing Iraqis from oppression?

If thats the case, THEN WHEN THE HELL WILL THE UNITED STATES COME CHARGING IN AND LIBERATE MY FUCKING COUNTRY? 37% OF CYPRUS HAS BEEN UNDER TURKISH MILITARY OCCUPATION FOR THE PAST 30 YEARS! WHAT ABOUT TIBET? WHAT ABOUT NORTH KOREA?

All I can say, is that is not a valid excuse. I could go on for a long time about the countries that have brutal, despotic regimes. So sorry, that is bullshit.

Another 60 people were killed today in a suicide blast in Baghdad. Most Iraqis are glad Saddam is gone, but aren't too happy with the Americans either.
I agree Saddam had to be removed, but not by outside intervention. Funding a rebellion maybe? Oh, wait, in the First Gulf war, when the people of Southern Iraq staged an uprising, did the USA help THEM? No, they just abandoned them when they pulled out, allowing them to be systematically rounded up by Saddam's forces and executed. Right, a lot more rebellions were gonna take place after that one. And as a result, any POSSIBLE trust they could've had with American forces evaporated. Then this war happened. One can only hazard a guess as to how many Iraqi civilians died.

People will say 'But they came out and voted in the elections, so they're happy with what's going on'... did they have any choice? The only chance they're left with now is to have a successful election, so of course they freakin came out and voted. They have no future anymore. With insurgents randomly killing dozens of innocent civilians a week, something which it must be said WAS NOT HAPPENING 3 YEARS AGO, they're tired and weary of this bullshit.

The elected government is barely functional now, and believe me, it wont be 'a few years' before they'll be able to 'take care of themselves'. American soldiers will be there for a minimum of 12 years, criminal/buisinessman/Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld said recently if my memory serves (which it does). Ok, whatever, it could've been another one of Bush's cronies/puppeteers (i mean come on, does anyone actually believe that moron actually has a CLUE of what the hell is going on?) All that I know for sure it was a member of the cabinet.

So, the simple fact is, thousands upon thousands of people have died, for nothing. Innocent Iraqis, for nothing.

American soldiers who come almost universally from poor families, for nothing. Those who come home with their lives ruined by crippling injuries, come back to a government that has cut soldiers' pay and Veterans' pensions.

For an opportunity for GWB and his fellow crooks to line their pockets with even more oil revenues. (interesting, considering how oil prices continue to rise dramatically, I wonder where the extra profits are going to...)

War is a horrible, disgusting, awful thing. I've served in uniform, and I know what it's like to be a soldier. For your information, fifthtea_sausage, a soldier is THE LAST person who wants a war. Because they know all the awful details that civilians will never know, even if there never is a war (we were once training on procedures used to transport and bury the combat dead, that was REAL fun )

But soldiers will also lay down their lives for their country. All they ask is that they aren't sent into war unless IT IS NECESSARY.

It makes me sick.