HEROES

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browneyedgirl
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HEROES

Post by browneyedgirl » Mon Oct 16, 2006 6:28 pm

Who are yours?

Thee is a diffeence between an IDOL&a HERO.
An IDOL is someone that we place on a pedestal& admire who may, or may not be worthy of our adoration. Movie, Sports, music, entetainment, and political figures fit this classificatin. But, at times even Idols can be heroes if the right circumstances arise!
A HERO on the other hand, is a person(IMO)who we look up to as a person who does deeds&lives their life to better, or advance society.
Often,at risk to themselves or sacrificing elements of their own life to serve others. a Hero can even be a mythical figure.

For example, one of my heroes is King Arhur. Whether he really existed is still in speculation, but the ideals that he presents to the world are great, even though in the legends KA was far from a perfect person!
Another Hero of mine is Alexander the Great, whose bravery and boldness in his adventures&travels extended knowledge of the known world thousand of miles. His military maneuvers that he devised are still eing used in modern armies--so AtG's influences will endure 'til the end of time.
Franklin Roosevelt has been claimed, even by some Republicans, as the greatest USA president. He brought the country out of the ruins of a nation-wide depression, and put people to work building the intrastucture which still exists&is being used by the nation,today. His policies created Social Security which means no American of any political persuasion or social class has to live in poverty when they get too old to work. FDR ws not a perfect man, either, but the good things he accomplished will be remembered even by our grandchildren, and so on!

But, a person does not have to be famous to be a hero. The firemen who died in 911 can be classed as heroes-so can soldiers who die for their country in battle. The people who are Doctors&nurses who work diligently to save lives can,in a sense, be heroes.
The scientists who study&use labs to try to find cures for diseases which plague mankind are, in a way, heroes.

There are many examples too numerous to mention.

Who are your heroes?
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Re: HEROES

Post by NeonVomit » Tue Oct 17, 2006 2:29 am

Idols: Jari Kainulainen, Victor Wooten

Heroes: my parents, Christ, Hunter S Thompson, Ghandi
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Re: HEROES

Post by Mormegil » Tue Oct 17, 2006 3:36 pm

For me the line between idol and hero is so thin, I just list some really bad-ass guys.
:P

Tim Burton:
Greatest movie-director ever. I worship his unique visual style.

Danny Elfman:
My favourite movie-composer. Has scored almost all of Burton's movies (and many others too) and is one of the main reasons I like them so much.

John Ronald Reuel Tolkien:
The author of Lord Of The Rings, Silmarillion and Hobbit.

Timo Tolkki:
The man who inspired me to become a guitar player.

Tony Iommi:
The man who invented the heavy metal guitar playing.

Ronnie James Dio:
Greatest singer and lyricist in heavy metal. Is over 60 years old and still kicks asses.

Hannu Karpo:
"Finland's Michael Moore". The Finnish people know what I'm talking about. :D


And just for laughs...

Conan O'Brien:
Just an extremely funny person.

Darth Vader:
Coolest movie villain ever. 8)

Jack Sparrow:
Probably the greatest and funniest character I've seen in movies.

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Re: HEROES

Post by browneyedgirl » Tue Oct 17, 2006 5:19 pm

Christ, Joan of Arc, and Mother Theresa deserve Hero status in my opinion. Also, Ghandi,definitely!

Some rank the astronauts who died in the various Space programs as heroes. But, this is food for thougt.
If a person dies pursuing their dream are they a hero? Or is it just when they die for a cause, or when they save someone else's life or put someone before themselves?
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Re: HEROES

Post by Carcass » Tue Oct 17, 2006 7:38 pm

I guess my definition of a hero is a person able to put aside his fears and the expectations of others and act as he feels is the right thing to do at the moment. I may regard their deeds/conviction as unacceptable, but that is irreleveant.

I'll never forget an interview of a Finnish veteran who told how they were looking for water after a fight. He told they found one shell crater with water and "a dead Russian hero, so we had to boil the water for a good while. I would not drink that water today". Not being very patriotic, this warmed my heart immensly.

As for "the great men of history" mentioned above, I'm not sure if I would put any of them on my wall. Alexander killed countless of men and women for his pursue of territorial gain and Gnadhi had a rather simple view of the world, I'm afraid. I wouldn't swallow his thoughts unreservedly, no matter how admirable his accomplishments might be.

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Re: HEROES

Post by Maniac » Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:08 pm

myself :P

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Re: HEROES

Post by stratoplayer » Wed Oct 18, 2006 12:43 am

Am I the only person who thinks that FDR was a moron when it came to politcal manuevers? I mean he gave Stalin Carte Blanche with all of Eastern Europe, called the guy "Uncle Joe is a nice and warm hearted person" right after Stalin told Churchill "Yes after the tractors came we had to force the people so maybe 10 million or so...." Set up the place for the Cold War AND thought Stalin would support him all the way with the war on the Pacific.,,,

That is a far cry from being a good president, hell, he was the biggest idealist the world had ever seen since Woodrow Wilson...
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Re: HEROES

Post by browneyedgirl » Thu Oct 19, 2006 2:54 pm

stratoplayer wrote:Am I the only person who thinks that FDR was a moron when it came to politcal manuevers? I mean he gave Stalin Carte Blanche with all of Eastern Europe, called the guy "Uncle Joe is a nice and warm hearted person" right after Stalin told Churchill "Yes after the tractors came we had to force the people so maybe 10 million or so...." Set up the place for the Cold War AND thought Stalin would support him all the way with the war on the Pacific.,,,

That is a far cry from being a good president, hell, he was the biggest idealist the world had ever seen since Woodrow Wilson...
It goes without saying that you did not live in the USA during the Great Depression, but my Dad&grandparents DID! People of every(almost)social class, political persuasion, and race suffeed during that time. Even the rich underwent trials&tribs, as many millionaires lost everything they had. The policies of Coolidge&Hoover set the stage for this perilous time. (Well, some cold-heated, arrogant folk would say,"you get what you give" and say the people brought this Depression down on themselves. Just wait til such happens to the sayers of that saying!)Anyway, FDR slowing got the country back on track&I have yet to see a Republican turn down Social Security! :D
As to the WWII, wars happen during terms of many presidents, and since they are commanders in cheif they do serve as being partially responsible. But, if FDR had not got us involved inthat war, I feel pretty sure Adolph&his cronies might have gotten a serious foothold in the Americas. If Death camps had been set up in the Americas it would have been a totally different way of life for most people. 90% of people would not exist--all imperfect people destroyed. At least the people in those Nazistic opinions who were imperfect. :roll: Hitler was very selective&his narrowminded, intolerant ideals about people still exist today. I'm not going to get on my soapbox about that because most people cannot grasp the meaning, or choose not to.
Anyway,thank God FDR did go up against the Germans&Japanese or one of those 2 powers would've taken over the world. More likely if they had've destroyed the USA, those 2 powers left would've had to battle between themselves for the winner.
Of course, some selective, arrogant people would have loved it if Hitlers ideas had taken root---no one under a certain IQ would exist, everyone would fit the blonde haired, blueeyed ideal. The thing is, the people that are so hung up on intelligence and this look being so important would not exist themselves, :D so Hitlers ideals are so paradoxical, and were so dangerous. That is why USA HAD to fight him&get involved in that war.

And, Truman inherited all those problems when FDR died.
Would FDR dropped the bomb? Dunno. Thats a mystery w never will know, just as why was Hitler allowed to go as far as he did? Evil supports evil, I guess. When someone protects someone you know how they really feel. ;) I guess some things are just meant not to understand.
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Re: HEROES

Post by Leo » Thu Oct 19, 2006 9:36 pm

John Petrucci

Scientist have proven that John Petrucci only has one finger, which moves so fast, it is never percieved as fewer than four fingers by the human senses. If he had more than one finger, scientists believe the universe would exceed critical energy density and collapse on itself, which would destroy everything (except, of course, John Petrucci, who can be neither created nor destroyed, only moved from one style of shredding to another).

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Re: HEROES

Post by stratoplayer » Fri Oct 20, 2006 4:02 am

browneyedgirl wrote:
stratoplayer wrote:Am I the only person who thinks that FDR was a moron when it came to politcal manuevers? I mean he gave Stalin Carte Blanche with all of Eastern Europe, called the guy "Uncle Joe is a nice and warm hearted person" right after Stalin told Churchill "Yes after the tractors came we had to force the people so maybe 10 million or so...." Set up the place for the Cold War AND thought Stalin would support him all the way with the war on the Pacific.,,,

That is a far cry from being a good president, hell, he was the biggest idealist the world had ever seen since Woodrow Wilson...
It goes without saying that you did not live in the USA during the Great Depression, but my Dad&grandparents DID! People of every(almost)social class, political persuasion, and race suffeed during that time. Even the rich underwent trials&tribs, as many millionaires lost everything they had. The policies of Coolidge&Hoover set the stage for this perilous time. (Well, some cold-heated, arrogant folk would say,"you get what you give" and say the people brought this Depression down on themselves. Just wait til such happens to the sayers of that saying!)Anyway, FDR slowing got the country back on track&I have yet to see a Republican turn down Social Security! :D
As to the WWII, wars happen during terms of many presidents, and since they are commanders in cheif they do serve as being partially responsible. But, if FDR had not got us involved inthat war, I feel pretty sure Adolph&his cronies might have gotten a serious foothold in the Americas. If Death camps had been set up in the Americas it would have been a totally different way of life for most people. 90% of people would not exist--all imperfect people destroyed. At least the people in those Nazistic opinions who were imperfect. :roll: Hitler was very selective&his narrowminded, intolerant ideals about people still exist today. I'm not going to get on my soapbox about that because most people cannot grasp the meaning, or choose not to.
Anyway,thank God FDR did go up against the Germans&Japanese or one of those 2 powers would've taken over the world. More likely if they had've destroyed the USA, those 2 powers left would've had to battle between themselves for the winner.
Of course, some selective, arrogant people would have loved it if Hitlers ideas had taken root---no one under a certain IQ would exist, everyone would fit the blonde haired, blueeyed ideal. The thing is, the people that are so hung up on intelligence and this look being so important would not exist themselves, :D so Hitlers ideals are so paradoxical, and were so dangerous. That is why USA HAD to fight him&get involved in that war.

And, Truman inherited all those problems when FDR died.
Would FDR dropped the bomb? Dunno. Thats a mystery w never will know, just as why was Hitler allowed to go as far as he did? Evil supports evil, I guess. When someone protects someone you know how they really feel. ;) I guess some things are just meant not to understand.
Bear with me! I did not criticize his economic decisions! those were probably the best and only option for the world, remember that not only the US had a major recession during the 1930's.

Nor do I think that the US getting involved in the war was a bad idea (though their idealism was quite unfounded) I think he really fucked up with his dealings with Stalin, he was either a poor judge of character or played one of the biggest gambles in history and lost.

Now that you bring up the whole bomb droppings (bad pun intended), it was a good call, given Japanese history and tendency to fight to the END no other alternative would have ended the war in 1945.
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Re: HEROES

Post by Stealth » Fri Oct 20, 2006 4:03 am

I don't believe in heroes. Soldiers, for example, are far from being heroes; they are automated killing machines with almost no free will. They are bred to follow orders.

Anyways, if I had to choose heroes, I would choose Eric Cartman and Al Bundy. 8)
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Re: HEROES

Post by miditek » Fri Oct 20, 2006 5:08 am

stratoplayer wrote:Nor do I think that the US getting involved in the war was a bad idea (though their idealism was quite unfounded)
Traditionally, America has been alternately accused of being idealist, and then at other times, of being isolationist, by various critics.

Perhaps America's supposed "idealism" would have far preferable to isolationism, which is precisely what many Republicans at the time were calling for.

History would have taken a real turn for the worse had the isolationists won out over the "idealists".
President Roosevelt even publically branded one of the leading isolationists of the time, american icon Charles Lindbergh, as both an appeaser, as well as a traitor.
stratoplayer wrote: I think he really fucked up with his dealings with Stalin, he was either a poor judge of character or played one of the biggest gambles in history and lost.
To suggest that Roosevelt was unaware or naive of Stalin's true nature is revisionist history. Churchill himself had said that Fascism bore little difference from the worst excesses of Communism, and Roosevelt and Churchill worked together more closely perhaps than any other two leaders in world history.

Moreover, Russia bore the brunt of the unprecedently ferocious onslaught of Hitler's elite legions, and allowances were made due to the high levels of resistance, and not to mention the virtually incalculable losses of, the Red Army. It is very unlikely that one could find a Russian family that did not lose someone. All of the Allies signed off on the agreement at Yalta, including the Brits.

The United States could have continued the war, against Russia, and at the cost of millions of more lives. Roosevelt and Churchill did what they could, and this included saving Denmark (Eisenhower diverted an entire infrantry division there as a hint to Stalin), as well as Austria, as Stalin had designs on them also, and Red Army troops did march into Vienna. I am sure that was a frightening spectacle. Let's also not forget that Britain and France sold out the
Czechs to Hitler in 1938.
stratoplayer wrote:Now that you bring up the whole bomb droppings (bad pun intended), it was a good call, given Japanese history and tendency to fight to the END no other alternative would have ended the war in 1945.
Japan was warned that further resistance was useless, and that destruction of a large magnitude would result if surrender was not imminent (not to mention the fact that they started the war against the US).
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Re: HEROES

Post by browneyedgirl » Fri Oct 20, 2006 4:36 pm

@stratoplayer, I didn't mean to sound so "huffy" in my post---don't take offense, please! :red:
Extreme pacifism looks great on paper&sounds beautiful in a song, but in the cold, cruel real world, its just not that simple!
I've became more cynical(I call it realistic)as I've gotten older, and IMHO this "you get what you give/order" philosophy is pure bullshit lots of times!(Just ask survivors of Great Depression, the Holocaust, and abused women&children for starters about that fairytale philosophy. Of course, some ignorant people would say it was their "karma" :roll: )

Anyway, wars with all the disgusting carnage are sometimes necessary whenever people are being treated like garbage&worse by their leaders. In Romania, for example in the late 80s, people had to rise up&execute their leader because he made life misery for those people&the effects of that man's leadership are being felt almost 20 years after his death! If he had not been executed, there is no telling what his megalomania would have done to those people! The people who suffered had no means to escape by leaving that country. And, they, for Gods sake, did not deserve what they went through! So, taking a stand&fighting back, even violently sometimes is the only way to save a country&its people from deeper harm and misery.
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Re: HEROES

Post by stratoplayer » Sat Oct 21, 2006 12:46 am

Don't worry BEG I didn't take offense, I just thought that my points had been misinterpreted. I actually believe that a war or two every hundred years can have some major benefits, wars come with a major leap in technological developements (most cases at least), you unite the people of your country/state/whatever and (no to sound TOO nihilist) you cut back the population a bit which is something we REALLY need.

@Miditek: Lindbergh was not only isolasionist, he was also quite anti-semitic and pro-fascist in the 1930's (but so where quite a bit of people in the western hemisphere, not just the Axis) so Roosevelt made the right call by shunning or descrediting him.

Also Churchill pretty much had to stand by Roosevelt at Yalta, no matter what was his call, England had lost most of its power by then and became quite dependant on the US for financial support, but he stated quite clearly in his memoirs that Roosevelt gave Stalin way too much leverage.
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Re: HEROES

Post by browneyedgirl » Sat Oct 21, 2006 12:32 pm

The media has pretty much made Crocodile Hunter, Steve Irwin(RIP)out to be a Hero&yes, he did support environmental causes, and had a great show. However, could he really be classed as a hero? Maybe to some people, I guess. IMHO, I think he would be an IDOL, not a hero, but I can understand the admiration, though.
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Re: HEROES

Post by miditek » Sat Oct 21, 2006 3:46 pm

Stealth wrote:I don't believe in heroes. Soldiers, for example, are far from being heroes; they are automated killing machines with almost no free will. They are bred to follow orders.
Does this include the tens of thousands of American troops (Patton, a real hero and not some stupid lip-syncer on American idol, being among their number) that are buried in Europe? Does this suggest that, based on your own political views, that soldiers are somehow less than human?

Does this mean that they didn't feel fear, alienation, loneliness, frustration, hunger, cold, moments of sheer terror, boredom? Does this indicate that their families did not love them, and hope that they safely returned home? Many of the dead that are buried in military cemetaries were just kids of seventeen, eighteen, nineteen, and twenty years old.

Of course, not all of them died. My uncle was almost mortally wounded near Bastonge (and another uncle fought in other areas of ETO, and still another in Korea), and when he returned to the States, he was never, ever the same again.

The soldiers' lives were cut short making the ultimate sacrifice for their countries, and I really don't like the implication that they were somehow less than human in order to support your pacifist meanderings.

If you want to describe Einsatzgruppen forces, the Khmer Rouge, or the SS, as mindless killing machines, then by all means do so, but to group them with other men that served their countries faithfully and honorably is something that positively makes my blood boil.
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Re: HEROES

Post by MetalAngel » Sat Oct 21, 2006 4:47 pm

My heroes are : my gf, my mum, my grand-parents (R.I.P.).

My idols are numerous, and the list too long to be developed in here, so... :wink:
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Re: HEROES

Post by Stealth » Sat Oct 21, 2006 7:39 pm

miditek wrote:Does this include the tens of thousands of American troops (Patton, a real hero and not some stupid lip-syncer on American idol, being among their number) that are buried in Europe? Does this suggest that, based on your own political views, that soldiers are somehow less than human?
Well, I never said that they are less than human; they are just easily manipulated and brainwashed. Contrary to the physical image of soldiers as strong and brave, I think they are mentally weak. They just know that as part of their job, they WILL kill civilians at some point, but they have to follow orders and they can't just say "I'm not going to shoot because I don't want to hurt innocent people". I wouldn't be able to follow orders like that, and I certainly wouldn't do it. Call me a pacifist, I'll call you a reactionary.

miditek wrote:The soldiers' lives were cut short making the ultimate sacrifice for their countries, and I really don't like the implication that they were somehow less than human in order to support your pacifist meanderings.
Wrong. They chose to cut their own lives short by choosing their profession. No one forces them to be soldiers; it's their choice and they know the dangers involved. They could very well choose not to become soldiers. No, I don't feel sorry for them. And that "die for your country" thing is the most ancient nationalist doctrine around. In the words of Benedict Anderson, nation-states are immagined communities. They create an often artificial sense of belonging. I would only risk my life for those who are close to me, including family, friends, etc., regardless of their native countries. Nationalities don't say anything. To say that you risk your life for your country is, in my opinion, stupid. And it shows that your government brainwashes you effectively. Honestly, if dying for your country is so honourable and brave, I would love to see Bush fulfilling his patriotic duties in Iraq, in Afghanistan or wherever. Funny thing though, he gives nationalist speeches and encourages people to join the army, yet he's always safe in the White House. And don't tell me "well, someone has to be the leader''. You know, in ancient times, Julius Caesar, Hannibal, Genghis Khan, etc. would themselves go to battle with their troops. They were less hypocritical in that sense.
Last but not least, I don't care if you like or dislike my implications.
miditek wrote:If you want to describe Einsatzgruppen forces, the Khmer Rouge, or the SS, as mindless killing machines, then by all means do so, but to group them with other men that served their countries faithfully and honorably is something that positively makes my blood boil.
By honourably I take it that you mean, for example, in Vietnam. Yeap, the nationalist doctrine is waaay too deep in you. And the fact that your blood is boiling is just another indication of how reactionary you are and how incapable you are of maintaining a cold-blooded discussion.
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Re: HEROES

Post by browneyedgirl » Sat Oct 21, 2006 8:24 pm

There is nothing like a good ol' fashioned invasion to turn a pacifist into a "defender of ones own". As long as people live in "safe/peaceful" countries you can be pacifist all you want, but by chance if some other country invades your ass(for no reason), if you have any worth in you whatsoever you will fight to defend your country and all you have.

Yeah, we all want our daughters to marry a guy like Al Bundy. :lol: What a hunk and a great example for all men to follow! :lol:
I loved that show! :)
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Re: HEROES

Post by stratohawk » Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:03 pm

Soldiers cannot be heroes. They kill and bring grief and sorrow about others, so how could they be heroes? Of course, I consider that there is a grey-zone. And: Yes, defending your own country in a war you have not started is nothing bad. But someone joining an army, going to another country to "fulfil the job", well, such a person cannot be a heroe for me. Well, again an exception: Humanitarian missions, like in some African countries, to protect civilians against devastating rebel groups and other barbarism.
Huh, not to easy to find a definition.

I have to take a minute and think of MY heroes.

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Re: HEROES

Post by stratohawk » Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:13 pm

Btw, I have to add something concerning the discussions before:
I have to contradict strictly against some who use the term "pacifist" as a cuss! You still have not understand that a)being against war is not automatically being a pacifist, and b)why force and violence are far from being good solutions to the world's problems nowadays. (btw, I don't consider myself as pacifist, but yes, in your black-and-white-world, I might be one).

Someone who understood what's the main problem of this world is the new holder of Nobel Peace Price, Mohammed Yunus.
Hepling poor people out of their misery is the very main goal, to solve injustice, frustration, and poverty. This is the main solution - in a long term - to prevent terrorism. And not war.

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Re: HEROES

Post by Stealth » Sat Oct 21, 2006 10:14 pm

browneyedgirl wrote:if some other country invades your ass(for no reason)
I think you are wrong here. It is incredibly naive to believe that "some other country'' invades your country for no reason. And this proves my point once again: I think the American government does an excellent job at promoting nationalistic values and making everyone believe that the U.S. has never done anything to anyone. Keeping people ignorant about the things they do in foreign countries is what they do best. People don't just develop negative feelings ''for no reason''.

And I agree with stratohawk's posts. Not being in favour of war is not the same thing as being a pacifist.
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Re: HEROES

Post by Shurik » Sat Oct 21, 2006 10:15 pm

I have to contradict strictly against some who use the term "pacifist" as a cuss!
Pacifism can be a good thing if you have nice neighbours and absolutely no enemies anywhere in the world. If your neighbours dream about wiping you from the face of the Earth, there can be no pacifism, pacifists are simply delusional cowards in this situation ...

And soldiers can be heroes. Soldiers who risk their own lives to eliminate someone who intents to blow up a cafe or a bus are heroes to me and I'm proud to have heroes among my friends ...
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Re: HEROES

Post by Carcass » Sat Oct 21, 2006 11:14 pm

Stealth is right, nationalism is artificial. Finland is a good example. It was due to propaganda that we were made to think that we are a nation. Our great poets wrote about the Finnish nation and nature, collected folk poetry and educated the peasents to think that we are not Swedish or Russian. Nationalistic history is always oversimplified and full of myths. People haven't always had a Finnish, German or French identity.

The same goes for the Scandinavian countries, being finnish-swedish, I can understand Norwegian quiet well. Now, why don't Norwegians and Swedes belong to the same nation? In a lot of languages/nations (the two go hand in hand, mind you) these two languages would be two dialects. In fact there was a Scandinavian nationalism movement in the mid-19th century. Obviously the movement wasn't very successful.

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Re: HEROES

Post by miditek » Sun Oct 22, 2006 5:10 pm

Carcass wrote:Stealth is right, nationalism is artificial. Finland is a good example. It was due to propaganda that we were made to think that we are a nation.
I think that the Finns are most likely much better off being governed by Madam Halonen from Helsinki than Comrade Putin from the Kremlin. Do you know of any Finns that would have found being a province of Russia preferable to independence?
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Re: HEROES

Post by miditek » Sun Oct 22, 2006 5:15 pm

stratohawk wrote:Someone who understood what's the main problem of this world is the new holder of Nobel Peace Price, Mohammed Yunus.
And Arafat was also a Nobel recipient in 1974, and this is the same guy that gave the order to Black September to do the hit at Munich in 1972, among other atrocities.
stratohawk wrote:Hepling poor people out of their misery is the very main goal, to solve injustice, frustration, and poverty. This is the main solution - in a long term - to prevent terrorism. And not war.
Helping people is of course very important. However, to suggest that these problems are within mankind's ability to successfully resolve is utopian thinking, at best.

Also, poverty is not the leading cause of terrorism. Bin Laden is worth hundreds of millions of dollars, as was Arafat. Radical Islam (religion) is the root cause of today's terrorism.
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Re: HEROES

Post by Carcass » Sun Oct 22, 2006 6:34 pm

miditek wrote:
Carcass wrote:Stealth is right, nationalism is artificial. Finland is a good example. It was due to propaganda that we were made to think that we are a nation.
I think that the Finns are most likely much better off being governed by Madam Halonen from Helsinki than Comrade Putin from the Kremlin. Do you know of any Finns that would have found being a province of Russia preferable to independence?
No I don't, cause quite frankly, I don't think there are any.

But what's your point?

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Re: HEROES

Post by Carcass » Sun Oct 22, 2006 6:39 pm

miditek wrote:
stratohawk wrote:Someone who understood what's the main problem of this world is the new holder of Nobel Peace Price, Mohammed Yunus.
And Arafat was also a Nobel recipient in 1974, and this is the same guy that gave the order to Black September to do the hit at Munich in 1972, among other atrocities.
stratohawk wrote:Hepling poor people out of their misery is the very main goal, to solve injustice, frustration, and poverty. This is the main solution - in a long term - to prevent terrorism. And not war.
Helping people is of course very important. However, to suggest that these problems are within mankind's ability to successfully resolve is utopian thinking, at best.

Also, poverty is not the leading cause of terrorism. Bin Laden is worth hundreds of millions of dollars, as was Arafat. Radical Islam (religion) is the root cause of today's terrorism.
Why do you think they went radical?

Experience of great injustice and poverty are two great reasons to why people turn to terrorism, radicalism and hostile attitudes towards West. Very few of Osama's backers are loaded.

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Re: HEROES

Post by miditek » Sun Oct 22, 2006 7:21 pm

Carcass wrote:
miditek wrote:
Carcass wrote:Stealth is right, nationalism is artificial. Finland is a good example. It was due to propaganda that we were made to think that we are a nation.
I think that the Finns are most likely much better off being governed by Madam Halonen from Helsinki than Comrade Putin from the Kremlin. Do you know of any Finns that would have found being a province of Russia preferable to independence?
No I don't, cause quite frankly, I don't think there are any.

But what's your point?
The point is, if Finland were not actually an independent nation, then it is very likely it would still be a province of Russia now.

And if that were the case, it would not bode well for any ethnic Finn (or Russian, for that matter) to tell the Kremlin that Russia was not a nation, but merely a figment of the imagination of today's propogandists.

Finland is a sovereign state, despite whatever fairy tales that the left wing press publishes.

I am sure that Field Marshal Mannerheim is rolling about fitfully is his grave now.
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Re: HEROES

Post by miditek » Sun Oct 22, 2006 7:32 pm

Carcass wrote:Why do you think they went radical?
Experience of great injustice and poverty are two great reasons to why people turn to terrorism, radicalism and hostile attitudes towards West. Very few of Osama's backers are loaded.
That's what the terrorists' apologists in the press would like for you to believe, but it is however, quite far from the truth.

The truth is that the imams are teaching their children to hate, and that anyone that does not convert to Islam must be destroyed. This has nothing to do with economics or poverty. If that were the case, there are many millions of poor people in the Southern United States, and not to mention other localities that would be flocking to the mosques and ready to sign up.

There is a great deal of injustice in the US judicial system, such as the emminent domain rulings by the U.S. Supreme Court, but we don't see American citizens lining up to blow up Justice Souter's house; although we did see a petition circulate to condemn his house for "emminent domain" in order to build a hotel that would bring in greater property tax revenues than his private residence. Sort of a "what's good for the goose is good for the gander" type of situation, and done through the courts, as opposed to mosque.

So for all of the talk in the left-wing media about poverty and injustice, we don't hear any proposed solutions of real substance, other than the fact that the US is the Great Satan, and that Israel is the little Satan. Blame the US and blame Israel, and Europe will be the savior of the entire planet, if it weren't for interference from Washington and Tel Aviv.
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