Saddam's appointment with the hangman

[miditek]

Word is out that the Iraq's High Tribunal has sentenced Saddam Hussein, his half-brother and former intelligence chief Barzan Ibrahim, as well as former Revolutionary Court leader Hamed al-Bandar, to death by hanging for crimes against humanity. Echoing the shadows of Nuremberg, Saddam has (as did Keitel and Jodl) requested to be shot rather than hanged, this request has been denied.

Of course, the cases are automatically appealed to a nine-judge panel, but things are not looking good for Saddam these days. I can't think of three nicer guys for this type of sentence to be handed down to.

Hey Saddam, when you get to hell, the first question that they'll ask you is; "Well sir, will that be original recipe, or extra crispy?" I think that they're all out of original recipe these days.

[Stratofanius]

I think that nowadays the death is too strong punishment, whoever the person is...

[Carcass]

As an opponent of death penalty, I find the last paragraph of your post rather tactless. It baffles me how some can crack a joke on the death of another. I'd have more understanding if you were a survivor from a certain kurdish village. But you're comfortably thousands of miles away from Iraq in front of your computer.

Another reason why I oppose the killing of this delirious old man, especially if it's done in public, is that it might unleash loyalist riots and acts of violence from the former Sunni leaders, leading to the loss of more lives.

[browneyedgirl]

What is that saying that is often bantered about in this very forum? "You get what you give/order."

I think before anyone gives too much sympathy to this "delerious old man" they should personally talk to people who lived&had loved ones die, under his rule!

Thats what stumps me. You have these celebs who actually have empathy to this man&Al-Queida, when these terrorists&folks of that religious belief think celebs, and folks like that are of the devil,and should be slaughtered!

For Pete's sake, save your sympathy for people who deserve it!

And you people who say you are against the death penalty, I bet if it was some leader YOU hated, you would be all for killing him/her! I rest my case!

[Carcass]

What is that saying that is often bantered about in this very forum? "You get what you give/order."

I think before anyone gives too much sympathy to this "delerious old man" they should personally talk to people who lived&had loved ones die, under his rule!

Thats what stumps me. You have these celebs who actually have empathy to this man&Al-Queida, when these terrorists&folks of that religious belief think celebs, and folks like that are of the devil,and should be slaughtered!

For Pete's sake, save your sympathy for people who deserve it!

And you people who say you are against the death penalty, I bet if it was some leader YOU hated, you would be all for killing him/her! I rest my case!

I wouldn't say that I'm sympathetic to Saddam, but I do have a little pity. Just look at how pathetic he is, an overthrown dictator with no grip of reality scribbling down a novel about a king in exile. Is it wrong to feel a bit of pity? You tell me.

I'm very aware that the majority of Iraqis who suffered under his rule are in favour of his execution. If I was an Iraqi, I would certainly feel like they do about this matter. But the thing is that I'm not, according to my values it's wrong to hang a person.

[browneyedgirl]

Maybe Saddam is pathetic&pitiful, but he brought it all down upon himself. I guess you must feel a bit of pity for Hitler, too right because the situation here is similar except Hitler ended his own misery by committing suicide. His underlings had to take the punishment for him, in a sense.
No, its not wrong to feel pity, after all many people felt pity for Tim McVeigh, too.
No, you are not Iraqi, which is my point, the reason your sympathy disgusts me. And I'm not Iraqi, and for that I thank my lucky stars.

@Carcass, are you in TTs forum? Your posts sound very familiar?

[Carcass]

No, you are not Iraqi, which is my point, the reason your sympathy disgusts me.

So basically you're saying that I should make all my judgements from the point of view and according to values of the concerned nation/country when I read forign news. No can do.

[Shurik]

I wouldn't say that I'm sympathetic to Saddam, but I do have a little pity. Just look at how pathetic he is, an overthrown dictator with no grip of reality scribbling down a novel about a king in exile. Is it wrong to feel a bit of pity? You tell me.

I don't feel pity for a mass murderer. He deserved his sentence ...
Many mass murderers turn to such things as religion or writing or smth like than when caught. Some of the Nazis did that too, do they deserve a pity?

[Carcass]

@Carcass, are you in TTs forum? Your posts sound very familiar?

Nope. I'm not the only leftist to oppose the capitol punishment. Don't know if you knew, but "the EU opposes capital punishment in all cases and under all circumstances and it should not be carried out in this case either."

http://www.eu2006.fi/news_and_documents ... 738862464/

[browneyedgirl]

@Carcass, are you in TTs forum? Your posts sound very familiar?

Nope. I'm not the only leftist to oppose the capitol punishment. Don't know if you knew, but "the EU opposes capital punishment in all cases and under all circumstances and it should not be carried out in this case either."

http://www.eu2006.fi/news_and_documents ... 738862464/

I would not brag about that, because nobody knows what the future holds for ANY nation. And, before anyone gets smartass about it, that applies to USA, too!
And, from what I have seen, alot of Europeans don't have to worry about physically killing people because many do that effectively with their caustic tougues!

[Martine]

I personally think (but who cares anyway) that death penalty is a drastic end for anybody on Earth, whether you deserve it or not. Does Hussein deserve it? Who am I to judge. Ask those who suffered from his actions. Though there is always a second chance for those who regret their actions and, he unfortunately doesn't. Let him face his own destiny in time. If there is really a God, I believe she will be the only one who understands and forgives.

The question is that I am scared of what the repercussions will be here on Earth. The 3rd War is at our doors. Could this death sentence be used as an excuse to start it quicker that we expected it to? I will probably live long enough to see WW-III and die of it but maybe, if I'm lucky enough, I will survive and see peace coming after.

I wish I lived 500 years ago or in 500 years from now. Historians will say one day that the 21th Century was probably the darker era ever.



Love you all.
P.S. I could also send to death my neighbours who make love at 3:00 a.m.

[browneyedgirl]

Pretty noisy, huh? (JK)

But, sex normally does not harm anyone, although some with radical beliefs might take that offer up.... after all, those religions think the Western way of life with its music, movies, clothing&such is Satanic influence.

As crazy as it sounds though, Saddam is probably "the guy next door" compared to the AntiChrist which is to come, according to Biblical&even secular prophecies.

I'm not judging Saddam in the end. Only God has the right to do that---only God knows what Saddam did&his heart. All we have is observations from others who lived through his regime. And if that is all true then, Saddam has to face his responsibility. Its not a pretty thing to think about in the least.

I just hope the hanging is not a public spectacle. Do it in privacy, not just for Saddam, but so it does not stir up anything ominious, or more protests than it already has.

As to the death penalty, I am against it except for cases like this&a few other types of crimes like serial murder. In most cases I think life imprisonment is punishment enough.

[Shurik]

I wish I lived 500 years ago or in 500 years from now. Historians will say one day that the 21th Century was probably the darker era ever.

Let's see:
11th, 12th and 13th centuries saw crusades, there was an epidemic in Europe in 14th century when app. 1/3 of european population died. A 100 years war between France and England started in that century. 15th and 16th century saw inquisition and genocide of Native Americans by Spanish and other invaders. Same things were done in Africa in that period. 18th century saw French revolution. 20th century saw 2 world wars, bolshevik revolution and subsequent civil war in Russia, Stalin's purges, Khmer Rouge rule in Kambodia, war in Vietnam and other conflicts.
Still, nothing in that scale had happened yet in 21st century. I'm not saying that nothing will happen, unfortunately we won't live to summarize the century in the year 2100, I'm saying that everything has to be put in proportion ...

[Equinox]

I do not totally agree with the death penalty, just like BEG said, it should be carried out in special cases, (not in that case where two gay kids were hanged because of their sexual preference) I think Saddam deserves death, but not be hanged.

Not because he is "such a great men that shouldn't die like that" but because of what his death, his public death may bring up. Who knows who will use his name in suicidal attacks? Many more mass murders? And then another hanging?

I don't know what else to say, things can get really dark after his is (if he is) hanged. But if something bad happens because of his death, damn me, but I'll be the first one to blame the U.S. 'cuz I know that this country has a lot to do with his trial. And if one of my relatives die for this, oh dear, I'll be pissed off.

[NeonVomit]

I have no pity or sympathy for Saddam. He was a criminal and a bloodthirsty dictator.

However, I am against the death penalty, whoever it is given to.

[Carcass]

I do not totally agree with the death penalty, just like BEG said, it should be carried out in special cases, (not in that case where two gay kids were hanged because of their sexual preference) I think Saddam deserves death, but not be hanged.

Just out of sheer interest (not to fuck with you), where do you draw the line when a person should be executed? What does it matter if he is hanged or not? Is an injection, riding the lightning or a firing squad more humane? Death is nasty no matter how you look at it.

For the record, I'm not loosing my night sleep either if (or rather when) this man is executed, if somebody deserves to be hanged, he certainly does. But killing to teach not to kill...

[miditek]

As an opponent of death penalty, I find the last paragraph of your post rather tactless.

Less tactless than gassing a village full of Kurds?

It baffles me how some can crack a joke on the death of another.

Well, when the brunt of the joke is a brutal dictator, somehow it does seem more amusing to me at least. Saddam is piece of garbage that the world will be much better off without.

I'd have more understanding if you were a survivor from a certain kurdish village. But you're comfortably thousands of miles away from Iraq in front of your computer.

Death is everywhere these days, and not simply in Iraq. Does your town or city have a federal "Safe Streets" Task force dealing with problems from the Crips, the Bloods, or Mexican gangs? Even in the city that I live in, there are some very dangerous areas that people get killed in every day.

Another reason why I oppose the killing of this delirious old man, especially if it's done in public, is that it might unleash loyalist riots and acts of violence from the former Sunni leaders, leading to the loss of more lives.

Your concerns are legitimate, which is why the certain areas in Iraq, such as Baghdad, should be placed under a very strict policy of martial law for the time being.

Just out of sheer interest (not to fuck with you), where do you draw the line when a person should be executed? What does it matter if he is hanged or not? Is an injection, riding the lightning or a firing squad more humane? Death is nasty no matter how you look at it.

The death penalty of course is a very grave form of punishment that is not to be taken lightly. DNA and other scientific evidence should always be required for any conviction. As for those the should face that death penalty, I feel that they should include:

a) Those convicted of first-degree (premeditated)
murder. This also should include genocide and
other forms of state-sponsored murder.

b) Child rapists/murderers (Jens J. started an
interesting thread on this in Tolkki's forum)

c) Terrorists

d) Traitors- particularly those that engage in
espionage against the state, and most definitely
when these activities compromise national security
and places citizens at risk.

e) Drug warlords/kingpins on the high level, and
even those that sell crack cocaine and heroin
on the retail or street level.

Aldrich Aames is one example of a traitor that
cheated the hangman.

I believe that the execution of Timothy McVeigh was
a good example of a just sentence for a terrorist. I'll never forget the picture of the Oklahoma City fireman that was crying as he carried a dead baby girl from the ruins of the Murrah Federal Building.

But getting back to Saddam, my opinion is that he is getting what he has deserved for a long time.

[NeonVomit]

Saddam getting what he deserves? If you ask me he's getting off light. Will he suffer? No, hanging is a pretty quick way to go.

Solitary confinment for the rest of his existance is what he deserves. 23 hours a day in a 10x8 cell. Let his sanity shrivel and implode, let him torture himself into oblivion. That is what he deserves, not a quick and relatively painless death.

One of the reasons that I'm opposed to the death penalty is because I think death is too good for criminals of that level.

[Martine]

Let's see:
11th, 12th and 13th centuries saw crusades, there was an epidemic in Europe in 14th century when app. 1/3 of european population died. A 100 years war between France and England started in that century. 15th and 16th century saw inquisition and genocide of Native Americans by Spanish and other invaders. Same things were done in Africa in that period. 18th century saw French revolution. 20th century saw 2 world wars, bolshevik revolution and subsequent civil war in Russia, Stalin's purges, Khmer Rouge rule in Kambodia, war in Vietnam and other conflicts. ...

But in all these cases, the whole planet was not in danger of extinction. All these wars and diseases were isolated in their own country or continents. We survived. It has never become so close (in the 21th Century) for the humanity to disappear, whether because of our default to take care of the environment or because everybody has the power to have their enemies extinguished simply by pushing a red button. This is what I meant.

But I guess, this is out of this topic, we were talking about this man-to-be-hanged.



Have a nice day everyone.

[browneyedgirl]

@Miditek, I think the fireman who carried the baby out of the ruins of the Murrah Federal Building in Okla. City committed suicide a year later. So, the insane actions of one can destroy people like a domino effect. I also think terrorist actions which causes death to others does deserve capital punishment. Saddam, I think, would rank ot only an inhumane dictator, but also a terrorist.
The leader in Romania(Chowcestcu?) who was very cruel in his policies&to his people also cheated the hangman, because a group of brave people revolted&carried out their own execution. ASAIK, not much was done about it because it was widely known of the suffering the leaders policies put his people through. He got what he gave---no mercy.

@NW, yep. Tim McVeigh got a lethal injection&died peacefully in sleep. Some of the people in OK City laid for days in agony in the rubble before they passed on---what was left of them.

[Carcass]

Saddam getting what he deserves? If you ask me he's getting off light. Will he suffer? No, hanging is a pretty quick way to go.

Solitary confinment for the rest of his existance is what he deserves. 23 hours a day in a 10x8 cell. Let his sanity shrivel and implode, let him torture himself into oblivion. That is what he deserves, not a quick and relatively painless death.

One of the reasons that I'm opposed to the death penalty is because I think death is too good for criminals of that level.

So torture is a more apt punishment? Would you agree that we should set up torture camps where we could dump the shit of this world and torture them? Cause that is the cosequence of treating child killers, sadistic torturers and dictators the way you discribe. The world is awash with them.

I'm glad you're not a policy-maker on a grand scale.

[Carcass]

I would also like the raise the following question: how big a role did the West play in this whole mess? The US lent him huge amounts of money, German companies chemical technology and France some airplanes. Shouldn't people responsible for these things be trialed too?

[browneyedgirl]

Saddam getting what he deserves? If you ask me he's getting off light. Will he suffer? No, hanging is a pretty quick way to go.

Solitary confinment for the rest of his existance is what he deserves. 23 hours a day in a 10x8 cell. Let his sanity shrivel and implode, let him torture himself into oblivion. That is what he deserves, not a quick and relatively painless death.

One of the reasons that I'm opposed to the death penalty is because I think death is too good for criminals of that level.

So torture is a more apt punishment? Would you agree that we should set up torture camps where we could dump the shit of this world and torture them? Cause that is the cosequence of treating child killers, sadistic torturers and dictators the way you discribe. The world is awash with them.

I'm glad you're not a policy-maker on a grand scale.

Oh, and I can just see YOUin charge. You'd probably be feeding those imprisoned brutal bastards steak&shrimp and having porno piped in their cable TV--Oh,&lets not forget the million-dollar exercise rooms&saunas, and while we are at it, lets gift them with free live concerts, too shall we? Is Strato&Nightwish&Cradle of Filth available?

As for the role of the West, I am sure they regret the charity they gave these leaders. Hopefully. Unfortunately, there is not a prison sentence for idiocy so they go scott-free. (Or maybe I should say fortunately, because then most of the worlds leaders would be in jail, and us along with them).

[miditek]

I would also like the raise the following question: how big a role did the West play in this whole mess? The US lent him huge amounts of money, German companies chemical technology and France some airplanes. Shouldn't people responsible for these things be trialed too?

I think that most Western nations, as well as Russia, did business with Saddam over the years. Why do you think that Germany, France, and Russia opposed Gulf War II so vociferously? It was certainly not out of concern for Iraq or its people, as they so self righteously declared, but were more or less, acting out of their own economic self-interests.

The US realized that Saddam had to go, and took him out, and we are still paying the price at this very moment. So if we were to put all leaders on trial that did business with Saddam, the question remains, who would be left to govern in the UK, France, Germany, Russia, the US, Saudi Arabia, etc?

Additionally, many Sunni Arab nations also provided aid. Iraq was long considered to be the stop-gap measure to prevent Iran from projecting its power in the Middle East. Politically speaking, Iraq seemed to be the lesser of two evils during the 1980's, and the strategy did at least have the appearance of being sound at that time.

None of these governments and defense contractors are "innocent", but ultimately, it was Saddam that set the policies of his country, and led Iraq into one disaster after the other. It was his choice, as well as that of his chiefs of staff, and generals.

I rather look forward to the day when we will see Saddam swinging from the end of a rope. A justified end to one of history's most notorious tyrants. I remain amazed by the self control of the US troops that captured him.

While I can understand NeonVomit's talking point of Saddam spending the rest of his life in prison cell; my own view is that life in prison pales in comparison to an eternity in Hell.

[Equinox]

(not to fuck with you), where do you draw the line when a person should be executed? What does it matter if he is hanged or not? Is an injection, riding the lightning or a firing squad more humane? Death is nasty no matter how you look at it.

For the record, I'm not loosing my night sleep either if (or rather when) this man is executed, if somebody deserves to be hanged, he certainly does. But killing to teach not to kill...

If you commit mass murders, death to you son.
The method, I don't think it matters.
But in this case, it would be something that would entice some nationalist passions that should remain fast asleep.

And yes, I think that the death penalty is a low punch however you look at it; but when some ppl do stuff far nasti-er than the death penalty, buddy, I'm the most grusome person.

[NeonVomit]

While I can understand NeonVomit's talking point of Saddam spending the rest of his life in prison cell; my own view is that life in prison pales in comparison to an eternity in Hell.

If you choose to believe Hell exists, then he'd end up there in any case, wouldn't he? So what difference would it make ultimately whether he was executed or not?

For those who do not believe in it or are unsure, making the rest of his natural life as bad as possible would be preferable. Of course, this being the 21st century and all we must act civilized so none of this actual torturing buisiness, but I think being left to rot in a tiny cell with only your imagination for company for a good 30 or so years is far worse than a quick easy death. Did those who died under his reign have that luxury? Did those who suffered under his persecution have the privelage of a trial with legal aid and counsel?

Death is too good for him. And if it turns out Hell doesn't exist, who will have the last laugh?

[miditek]

While I can understand NeonVomit's talking point of Saddam spending the rest of his life in prison cell; my own view is that life in prison pales in comparison to an eternity in Hell.

If you choose to believe Hell exists, then he'd end up there in any case, wouldn't he? So what difference would it make ultimately whether he was executed or not?

For those who do not believe in it or are unsure, making the rest of his natural life as bad as possible would be preferable. Of course, this being the 21st century and all we must act civilized so none of this actual torturing buisiness, but I think being left to rot in a tiny cell with only your imagination for company for a good 30 or so years is far worse than a quick easy death. Did those who died under his reign have that luxury? Did those who suffered under his persecution have the privelage of a trial with legal aid and counsel?

Death is too good for him. And if it turns out Hell doesn't exist, who will have the last laugh?

All of your points above are reasonable assumptions, but wouldn't you think that it's also important to consider the psychological aspect (from Saddam's viewpoint at least)? Swinging from a rope is not how Saddam wants to be remembered.

His victims may not have had legal representation, but the Judge initially told him to sit down and shut the fuck up, ejected Saddam from the courtroom several times, and eventually condemned him to death.
This was the most likely outcome, and this was an Iraqi court, in an Iraqi jurisdiction, and with an Iraqi judge.

It was Stalin's dream to have put Hitler on display in a show trial before a live execution, and while that unfortunately never happened, I am sure that there are a lot of people that will get a great deal of satisfaction from this one the appeals process has ended.

Personally, I would have preferred to see the troops that captured Saddam toss a white phosphorus grenade down into the hole that he was hiding in, to give him a brief preview of Hell, but I guess that was too much to ask for.

Saddam on trial and then executed sends a real message to other dictators that they could be next, if they elect to not take a cyanide capsule when capture is imminent. There will be others similar to Saddam to be dealt with in the near future.

Perhaps all of the recent anti-death penalty rhetoric coming from EU bureaucrats is possibly due to jitters over the Kremlin's growing political influence and emergence as a potential superpower as the EU's primary supplier of heating fuel. Whatever happened to the "no blood for oil" slogans? Does this also apply to Gazprom or (what's left of it) Yukos products as well?

[Carcass]

You can do both, let him rot in a cell and before he's about to die of old age or bad health, hang him. Should make you both happy.

[NeonVomit]

You can do both, let him rot in a cell and before he's about to die of old age or bad health, hang him. Should make you both happy.

I like this idea.

[miditek]

Hang 'em high