Stratovarius Community

A bit late, but my thoughts and condolances go out to the families and loved ones of those who died.

A terrible tragedy that could have been prevented?

Thoughts, comments and questions here.

Let's try to keep it respectful, people.

I think it is horrible.
I mean, no place is immune to these kind of rampages. People can be minding their own business doing routine things&BAM! Someone "goes off" and starts killing innocent people.

There are so many issues here: the gun-control thing, the mental health issue, the fact that there were 2 hours lapse from the first killings til the next ones, etc.

Ther are probably, literally, thousands of people all over the world on the edge just ready to "go off" like that guy did. And that is scary. :nervous:

Prevented? Maybe. In hindsight the signs were there that this man was unstable, but nobody wants to think that someone, even unstable, is capable of such horror.

Personally, I would not mind if all guns were banned, but that is not being in touch with reality. Resticting guns would make it harder to get guns, but a determined person will buy/get a gun someway if they want one bad enough. And, an unstable person will kill with anything(knife, bomb, blunt object, rope, bare hands) if they reach that breaking point, although it is harder to kill someone with a blunt instrument for example, than a gun.

Its the same arguments over&over that occur every time something like this happens.
I hate to say it, because it sounds defeatist&paranoid, but as times go on and get worse economically, and more stressful---there are going to be more of these occurances as alot of people are going to find it hard to cope with Life.
It is a very serious topic&I would love to know the answers regarding prevention of this type of tragedy.

By the way, today is the anniversary of two other tragedies that have found no answers to preventing similar cases: The Waco Cult deaths(sparked off at the beginning by possession of illegal firearms,btw)&The Oklahoma City terrorist bombing.

Condolances to the families of the victims and fast recovery to the wounded ...

This is just horrible, people go to study or to teach and die in the classroom by the hands of a psychopath who somehow acquired guns despite the fact that he was a certified nutcase ...

He was not a certified maniac (or maybe I missed something?), that's where the tragedy lies. The guy was a nutcase in desperate need of help. He might not have realized that, but his teacher did. I don't believe these trigger-happy maniacs get their sick ideas the same day they do whatever they are about to do, he must've been brooding on his fantasy a long time. Obviously he didn't have any friends who would have noticed what was going on his brain. Sad. People get lonely, desperate, conceal it and in some cases seriously freak out.

A video has been released today which was found among the shooters possessions. It was a "manifesto". Parts of this haunting video was shown on the news a few minutes ago&it was chilling to watch! He was very angry, raging, pointing a gun at the camera&telling of his intentions. I can just imagine how people who lost loved ones feel about this video! OTOH, I think this video can be beneficial in showing the state of mind this person was in.
BTW, this film was made the day or two before the shootings occurred, so unstable or not, he knew what he was doing.
@Shurik, a professor from Israel died protecting a roomful of his students--he stood in the doorway keeping the shooter from entering. Very brave man. I'm sure he is receiving due respect for his actions which were way above the line of duty.

What pisses me off are these websites which are trying to twist this whole ordeal. Make it sound as if this shooter was mind controlled by the government&bullshit like that.

I think I heard somewhere that the professor was a holocaust survivor. What a way to go....

Carcass wrote:I think I heard somewhere that the professor was a holocaust survivor. What a way to go....

Isn't this just a rumour? Imagine how old he must have been. Anyways, no need to discuss it. He is a hero in either way.

Maybe he was just a little toddler at the end of the war. And maybe he was a Professor Emeritus, we have one who was a kid during the Finnish wars. But what difference does it make...

Carcass wrote:I think I heard somewhere that the professor was a holocaust survivor. What a way to go....

Liviu Librescu, 76, a Romanian Jew and Holocaust survivor was among those killed at Virginia Tech. He was the head of the Engineering Science and Mechanics department at the school. He had an amazing life, and in the 1970's former Israeli PM Begin personally intervened on Dr. Librescu's behalf in order that he be allowed to emigrate to Israel.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liviu_Librescu

Dr. Librescu's son also recounts his life in a video link that can be found on the page below. It is reported that he used himself as a human shield and ordered his students to escape through the window. An absolutely selfless and amazing man. Truly a light to the world, in my opinion.

cnn.com/2007/US/04/17/vtech.shooting.victims/index.html

Comedian Dennis Miller was discussing this on the O'Reilly Factor, and mentioned that Dr. Librescu had obviously faced evil before (at the hands of both the Nazis, as well as the Communists), and was most likely instantly aware that another face of evil was standing in the doorway looking in, and that he immediately and instinctively acted to protect his students.

Once you see evil firsthand, it is not too difficult to identify thereafter what Miller described as the "black, soulless, shark-like eyes" of an evil person.

Miller went on to state that there is a strong undercurrent of evil that is sweeping our country right now, and that it is foolish to not recognize it and confront it for what it is.

Even though Miller is primarily a comedian, I would be inclined to agree with him. Such as if there were a devil that actually existed, what is happening right now certainly fits into his plan. To break the peace, to deceive the nations, to defile the innocent, to prey upon the weak, and to spoil and ruin every last good and nice thing in the world.
So whether or not someone believes in the devil is not really the issue, since his agenda is most certainly alive, well, and thriving.

America is not alone in dealing with these type of tragedies, as their are lots of mass killings happening in such locales as the Middle East, South Africa, the Sudan, Brazil, Mexico, and many other places. There is a time coming where no place on earth will be safe.

miditek wrote:Miller went on to state that there is a strong undercurrent of evil that is sweeping our country right now, and that it is foolish to not recognize it and confront it for what it is.

When has it been any different? There has always been (seemingly) unexplained violence. From the cave man hammering his babies with a tigh bone of a sabre tiger to the plantation owner whipping his slaves for fun and the modern campus killer, same shit wrapped in new paper.

browneyedgirl wrote:A video has been released today which was found among the shooters possessions.

Actually, the shooter himself sent a package containing that video as well as pictures to NBC. According to what the shooter wrote on the label, the package was sent at 9:01 am, which is why those in charge of the investigation believe that the package was sent after the first attack and before the second attack.

EDIT: Btw, I got all this from "Anderson Cooper 360". His show covering this incident will air again tonight on CNN (I don't know if it will be a rerun of yesterday's program or if it will be a continuation, which would make more sense).

miditek wrote:Miller went on to state that there is a strong undercurrent of evil that is sweeping our country right now, and that it is foolish to not recognize it and confront it for what it is.

Carcass wrote:When has it been any different? There has always been (seemingly) unexplained violence. From the cave man hammering his babies with a tigh bone of a sabre tiger to the plantation owner whipping his slaves for fun and the modern campus killer, same shit wrapped in new paper.

The way I see it, the two keywords here are frequency and velocity- the violence in schools is increasing at an alarming rate, and the sheer velocity (speed) of change is frightening.

@Carcass, it's not just the violence in and of itself, but the overall moral decay of the country as well. When my mom was growing up, people didn't even lock their doors in her neighborhood. It was really a lot like the "Andy Griffith Show" type of community.

My Syrian friends watch that show and marvel at it's simplicity and honesty. They ask, "was it really like that here in America during that time?" I answered in the affirmative- not that America didn't have problems then, but it's nowhere near anything like it is now.

All of the neighbors knew each other, and everyone kept an eye out for each other. That same neighborhood today is overrun with prostitutes, pimps, drug dealers, and gang bangers.

Surprising? Not in a big city, but when all of this, and much more begins to hit the heartland of the country, or what I call the "real" America, something is definitely wrong.

How many ten year old kids do you know of in Finland (for example) that have crackhead mothers that force them to go out and steal (in order to support their mom's drug habit) or else get their ass beat? How many parents in Norway kill their children, or how many children in Denmark kill their parents?

How many little kids in Sweden get removed from their homes because their parents have set up a methamphetamine laboratory in the house? The kid's feet get burned from the chemicals, and their lungs get damaged from the fumes. Hazmat (Hazardous Materials) crews then have to go in wearing bio-chemical suits in order to "clean" the place.

Another example is people no longer being trustworthy in business. Mr. Rush, an accountant and my former employer with over 40 years experience once commented on the Enron scandal and had said; "When I worked at (Arthur) Anderson after college, we were all told by Directors and Partners that if there was even a hint of impropriety with a client or a potential client, we were to refuse the business and immediately notify our accountability supervisor."

Anderson was the world's largest accounting firm at one time, and was renowned (before Enron) for it's honesty and integrity- that's what the founder built his business on. It also spawned Anderson Consulting (now known as Accenture), which is one of the world's largest IT service organizations, whose revenue began to dwarf that of it's parent company.

And now, since the company was convicted of felonious financial crimes that cost investors billions and billions of dollars, the company is now gone- forever.

I could probably write a book on the ascent of evil in America, but I think you can understand that there's a great deal more to this than just these random shootings, and it is a very, very disheartening thing to see. If I did not have a very strong faith in God, I would have given up hope long ago.

Hey, I don't have strong faith in God (if any at all) and I haven't given up hope!

Plus, calling the guy 'evil' is probably wrong. He had severe mental problems. Mentally ill people are not evil, I work with them quite a bit. The guy needed help and no one in a position to do anything took the signs seriously. Who is at fault here? Certainly not him. He was not capable of making any sort of rational decision.

I agree. You can't really call that guy evil. What he did was obviously the result of a mental disorder. He wasn't in control of his mental state.

NeonVomit wrote:Hey, I don't have strong faith in God (if any at all) and I haven't given up hope!

Plus, calling the guy 'evil' is probably wrong. He had severe mental problems. Mentally ill people are not evil, I work with them quite a bit. The guy needed help and no one in a position to do anything took the signs seriously. Who is at fault here? Certainly not him. He was not capable of making any sort of rational decision.

There is no question that the guy needed help, and actually got some via a court order. It does appear now that he was lying to the counselors that were doing an assessment on him though. However, this guy planned the attacks that he committed, and as such, I would have considered the killings to be premeditated. He made a conscientious choice to do what he did, so while he may have had problems, he certainly understood what he was doing.

Essentially, his modus operandi was "I'm unhappy with my own life, so now I'm going to make sure that I inflict as much misery as I can on others." You can call him crazy, but I still consider what he did to be a perfect example of evil.

Former SS Camp Commandant Amon Goeth was certainly what I'd call crazy, but he was also evil as well. He used to shoot Jews and other prisoners for the sheer "sport" of it. I feel that just because someone is crazy does not mean that they cannot be evil as well.
History is full of such examples.

What about the Chechen terrorists that killed all of the kids at Beslan- would you call them crazy or evil or both?

Just because he planned something, it doesn't mean he was evil.

I work with people with mental difficulties a lot. If someone as potentially dangerous as this guy is left unchecked, there is every chance their minds will follow the path to this sort of violence.

Sure, people can be crazy and evil. (What is 'evil' in any case though? A subject for another discussion. I don't really believe in the Devil or anything...) I don't think this guy was evil though. He was deranged, living in his own world.

Are you saying he's in hell now? Even though he was completely out of touch with reality and most probably unaware of what he was really doing? That wouldn't be very fair, if you ask me.

If he'd been taken seriously earlier, right now he'd be in a mental institution recieving the therapy and care he required, and who knows... maybe one day might have made a recovery back to being an everyday person. Then he wouldn't end up in hell would he?

But now because he was left unchecked, he will be?

Legally, someone who is not in possession of their facaulties is not held responsible for their actions. I have a suspicion this guy would've been declared legally insane if he were tried.

Hitler was crazy, I don't think anyone would doubt that, but he was still in command of his thoughts and actions. So was Himmler. And so were those who carried out the Beslan school hostage taking.

This guy was not in command of his thoughts or actions.

I'm not playing devil's advocate here, but perhaps the responsibility of this tragedy lies elsewhere

Well, IMO, "evil" is when someone plans/plots to hurt someone else emotionally, mentally, physically just for the heck of it, or it pleases them to see pain of the ones/one they try to hurt for some personal reason. Then they follow through the plots with the hurtful actions, AND has no regret, and even rationilizes what damage is done in their own mind. And, yes, I believe people can be both evil&crazy. Like serial killers.
However, even killers can be mentally ill&not evil.
For example, the preacher's wife in Tennessee who shot him in the back while he was asleep was warped mentally after years of abuse, but she was not evil. She just snapped, too, like this guy in VA did.

Lets just be glad that mental illness is not regarded as it was as recently as hundred years ago. People were thought of as possessed by demons, tied up and locked away, or even killed. Unfortunately, there still is a stigma among narrowminded people about mental illness&this prevents people from getting the help they need. Nobody wants to be labeled as mentally ill even though there is no shame in the condition. Everyone is at risk, and anyone can be afflicted.

As to the direct responsibility of this shooting, it was the shooter himself, but there were contributing factors that went way back in his life. Someone dropped the ball in regards to this guy, and 33 people(including him)paid the price.

@miditek, Crazy shit happens all around the world, even in Scandinavia and Finland. Swedish foreign minister Anna Lindh was stabbed to death by a maniac. In Finland a teenaged girl, Eveliina Lappalainen was beaten and drowned in a gutter by some guy whose motivation was that he had a bad day; to name few cases. There are many more. The afternoon papers make a lot of money by reporting of such things. Drugs are beginning to be a real problem here too. Like alcohol, especially after the previous government lowered the alcohol tax. I hope the new one is wise enough to raise it.

But still, I consider myself an optimist (most of the days). If you look at the statistics, a lot more babies were killed by their mothers in Finland 100 years ago than now. Now parents can afford the bread on the table, even as single mothers.

In many aspects the world is a much better place than what it was 100 years ago. It's true that you mom's generation grew up in a society with less crime, but the crime rates are in decline in US. Of course, the distribution of crime is not even. Your state (Tennessee, right?), for example shows a steady rise. That's a real bummer.

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/table_01.html

Carcass wrote:Like alcohol, especially after the previous government lowered the alcohol tax. I hope the new one is wise enough to raise it.

Maybe extend Alko's opening hours a bit more? Every time I wanted to get some stuff it was closed

When are they closing? I hardly ever go to Alko. It's not allowed to sell alcohol in any shops after 21.00.

The next time you come to Finland, write two words on the back of your palm: aspirin and booze. With a permanent marker.

Carcass wrote:When are they closing? I hardly ever go to Alko. It's not allowed to sell alcohol in any shops after 21.00.

The next time you come to Finland, write two words on the back of your palm: aspirin and booze. With a permanent marker.

21:00?! And here I was thinking that a 23:00 lisence in UK was annoying!

Well, the booze sort of leads to the aspirin... anyway! Off topic.

NeonVomit wrote:Just because he planned something, it doesn't mean he was evil. I work with people with mental difficulties a lot. If someone as potentially dangerous as this guy is left unchecked, there is every chance their minds will follow the path to this sort of violence.

I think that Cho certainly exhibited plenty of warning signs, unfortunately, most states have laws that if a person, mentally ill or not, does not want help, then they can only be held under court order in a treatment center for a very small period of time.

NeonVomit wrote:Sure, people can be crazy and evil. (What is 'evil' in any case though? A subject for another discussion.

Why be rhetorical about the question of evil? It abounds in this world today, and does it really need a definition?

NeonVomit wrote:I don't really believe in the Devil or anything...) I don't think this guy was evil though. He was deranged, living in his own world.

I think that what this guy did was certainly evil, and if it had happened at your school, or to your friends or family, I think you might look at it a bit differently. I believe that this guy is fully accountable for his actions.

NeonVomit wrote:Are you saying he's in hell now? Even though he was completely out of touch with reality and most probably unaware of what he was really doing? That wouldn't be very fair, if you ask me.

The Bible says, "Each shall be judged according to his own works," and I believe that those words are true. I believe that God will forgive any sin, with the sole exception of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which as I've said before, is a sin that I believe that no one alive today can even commit.

However, how could Cho ask for forgiveness after he is already dead? Once a mortal dies and is buried, there is no returning to this world.

I cannot say with any type of authority where his soul is now, since I am, quite obviously, not God. I do have my suspicions, based on what I have seen, though.

For what it's worth, I ran across an interesting article on your question that is part of a column that is written by Fox News Religious Correspondent, Father Jonathan Morris.

foxnews.com/fatherjonathan

Father Jonathan, who is a Catholic priest, answered readers' questions about the VT tragedy. The most interesting reply was to Dr. Ken, a physician from Maryland, who, like myself, believes that Cho made a conscientious choice to do what he did, and is therefore, fully accountable for what he did. Like yourself, Father Jonathan was not so sure if he agreed with the doctor, and said so in his reply. Here is Father Jonathan's response to Dr. Ken:


RESPONSE: Dr. Ken, thanks for your note, including the part I didn’t have room to include. I wanted to comment on this first paragraph, though, because I think we need to be careful not to jump to the conclusion that Cho is fully culpable before God for the “choice” to pull the trigger. Some people wrote to me to say we know for sure Cho is in hell. I surely don’t. Especially in the case of mental illness, things aren’t so simple.

NeonVomit wrote:If he'd been taken seriously earlier, right now he'd be in a mental institution receiving the therapy and care he required, and who knows... maybe one day might have made a recovery back to being an everyday person. Then he wouldn't end up in hell would he?

A Virginia judge actually did have this guy committed for short-term treatment, and it is apparent that he lied to the therapists who assessed him. The official report said that while he was an "imminent" threat to himself, the study could not find that he was a threat to others.

It is very difficult for me to find any shred of sympathy for people that commit acts such as these though. My sympathy is with the victims, and moreover, there families as well. Cho was the perpetrator, in my opinion, and not the victim.

Regarding your question of therapy preventing him from going to hell, I don't think that therapy alone would have prevented it. There are times where God's direct intervention is needed.

Only salvation keeps us out of hell, and the therapy that this guy would have required would most likely have included heavy doses of meds, and long-term in-patient care. Was he insane? Most likely, but I would have considered him to be criminally insane, as he was consumed with violent hatred for just about everyone.

I do think that he had a crucifixion complex, though, and the whole thing with him having "Ismail Ax" (Ismail is a derivative of Ishmael) written on his arm, in red, leads to other possibilities, such as demonic possession. With that, you might have a gray area.

NeonVomit wrote:I'm not playing devil's advocate here, but perhaps the responsibility of this tragedy lies elsewhere

Yes, I could see that- perhaps with the Devil that no one seems to believe in, anymore? As I said previously, you may not believe in him as a spiritual entity, but don't you think that it's safe to say that his agenda is at least alive and well?

Carcass wrote:@miditek, Crazy shit happens all around the world, even in Scandinavia and Finland. Swedish foreign minister Anna Lindh was stabbed to death by a maniac.

I can't dispute what you're saying about craziness happening everywhere. What I was trying to point out is that America is crumbling. The foundations that made our country great are being swept away at a pace that is almost unbelievable. When my Syrian friends are asking, "what has happened to the great, conservative country that we grew up and went to university in?", then it's safe to say that the outlook is not good.

Carcass wrote:In Finland a teenaged girl, Eveliina Lappalainen was beaten and drowned in a gutter by some guy whose motivation was that he had a bad day; to name few cases. There are many more.

Those are certainly examples of some of the problems that Scandinavians are facing as well, and I hope that you won't think that I'm trying to minimize the problems there. However, if you actually lived in America, it might be a bit easier to understand what I am saying.

Also, people that are "in-tune" in the spiritual sense, also lament what is happening now. This includes Jews, Protestants, Catholics, and Muslims that I know and speak with in everyday life. Almost every single one of them that I have spoken to agrees that "something big" is about to happen.

What we believe is coming does not very bode well for the secular world itself, but spiritual people do have hope of something much better to come, and I'd like to count myself as being one of their number.

Carcass wrote:The afternoon papers make a lot of money by reporting of such things. Drugs are beginning to be a real problem here too. Like alcohol, especially after the previous government lowered the alcohol tax. I hope the new one is wise enough to raise it.

Please don't think (again), that I'm trying to minimize your country's problems, but we've had drug problems here for decades now, and it is probably a bit more accurate to refer to America's drug culture and its drug wars. Cocaine profits go right back to South and Central America to prop up corrupt governments, finance the really big drug cartels, as well as death squads on both the left and right wings of the political spectrum.

Just take a look at how many police officers have been killed in the US, Mexico, Brazil, and other places. The drug gangs are so bad, that if you'll recall, the assassinated the entire Supreme Court in Colombia! That was completely shocking!

So essentially, the drug thing is a problem that essentially effects not only America, but the entire western hemisphere itself. In fact, I am sure that the fallout also is reaching many other regions as well.

Carcass wrote:But still, I consider myself an optimist (most of the days). If you look at the statistics, a lot more babies were killed by their mothers in Finland 100 years ago than now. Now parents can afford the bread on the table, even as single mothers.

It's good to see that you have some statistics to be optimistic about! I'm glad the Finland was able to keep it's independence after the Finnish Wars in the last century as well.

Carcass wrote:In many aspects the world is a much better place than what it was 100 years ago. It's true that you mom's generation grew up in a society with less crime, but the crime rates are in decline in US. Of course, the distribution of crime is not even. Your state (Tennessee, right?), for example shows a steady rise. That's a real bummer.

Yes, in many ways the world is better off, but that often depends on where a person actually lives. However, the world also did not have the means to destroy itself 100 years ago, either. The stakes are much higher now than ever before, wouldn't you agree?

Since I live in USA, too, I agree with miditek about how America is crumbling. Some people say its because society, men, and women themselves have made it a shame for ladies to want to simply be homemakes&mothers--these women are made to feel guilty for choosing this role(I know this is true because I went through this BS myself). Some people say it began when God was forced out of the classroom---maybe things did get worse, but as I recall there were juvenile delinquents way back then, too.
It seems as if a New Age fad gets pushed every fe months to try to get peole to feel good about themselves&make them more poular with others when actually, these New Age philosophies(The Secret)ar just scams to sell items&an idea which most peole with sense know anyway!
People in USA(everywhere in world, too)is hungry for something, yet it seems it is harder to be fulfilled emotionally&spiritually in these times.
America is dubbed the "Prozac Nation", and its no wonder: about 1/4 of Men, women&children are on some sort of mood enhancer or anti-depressant, and I will not even discuss the folks who relax with alcohol. That would probably easily be another 1/4 to the tally.
People are under pressure to succeed, to impress people, to be liked, not just to have friends or get along, but many times our very livelihood depends on how well we "fit in" the niche.
The Bible has spoken of a time when people will grow wiser, but weaker---I think, IMO, weaker means spiritually&emotinally as well as physically. The other day at work a guy said,"You know these days people judge by the intelligence as much as looks, and one judging is bad as another!" I replied,"Yeah, whatever happened to basic decency&character?" Yeah, isn't those traits important anymore?

This Cho guy once again gave the "bullying" excuse for what he did. As a sociology student, I have to say when ar we going to stop separating people into these categories of "cool" "uncool" making people who are a certain way our punching bags, so to speak? But, we are paying the price for our selective treatment of people every time something like this happens&the thing is we NEVER learn from it!
Bullying others does not always lead to violence, of course. When a Female is bullied they usually turn their felings inward and become promiscuious, alcoholic, druggies, eating disorders, or just aggresive bitches ready to fight at every insult. Or, suicide.
Males on the other hand, are more violent in their response to being bullied.
In either case, male or female, the IGNORE option to bullying usually does no good. Get real!

However, bullying was no excuse for killing innocent people, I mean, the people he killed were not the ones tormenting him. He had loads of anger inside him building up for years, and no one he trusted to help him. What is sad is that Cho was to graduate in a couple months&he would've had a chance to start a new life somewhere away from the people who he felt were bullying him. I guess he did not realize there is life after college---probably in his mental state it was too late for him anyway.
I'm not sympathizing with Cho at all, I'm just saying when a person is bullied like that, to that extreme, we should not be too surprised when they go off their rocker.

miditek wrote:[
Also, people that are "in-tune" in the spiritual sense, also lament what is happening now. This includes Jews, Protestants, Catholics, and Muslims that I know and speak with in everyday life. Almost every single one of them that I have spoken to agrees that "something big" is about to happen.

Depends what you'd consider 'big'. 9/11 was big to everyone in the Western world, but to a goatherder in Nepal, probably utterly insignificant.

NeonVomit wrote:

miditek wrote:[
Also, people that are "in-tune" in the spiritual sense, also lament what is happening now. This includes Jews, Protestants, Catholics, and Muslims that I know and speak with in everyday life. Almost every single one of them that I have spoken to agrees that "something big" is about to happen.

Depends what you'd consider 'big'. 9/11 was big to everyone in the Western world, but to a goatherder in Nepal, probably utterly insignificant.

What's been discussed in private conversation is much broader in scope and severity than 9/11 will ever be, which imo, was only the opening salvo of a much wider and far reaching conflict.

And we probably don't have to worry about goat herders from Nepal (they are mostly peaceful people, with the exception of the Gurkhas, whom I've always admired), when we've got more than enough goatfuckers from jihadland running around blowing up everything in sight.

Fortunately, it seems that the tide is beginning to turn against al-Qaida in Iraq, as several Sunni sheiks are now turning against the insurgents.

They are very influential, and some of the same ones that were firing on our troops just last month are finally sitting down to eat dinner and discuss strategies with General Petraeus and his staff.

In fact, the source for that story came straight out of yesterday's Atlanta Journal-Constitution, which is quite possibly one of the most liberal newspapers in the entire country. More men are signing up for the police force in Sunni areas, and it is also my hope that it is just a matter of time before al-Sadr is either eliminated or marginalized.

I realize that must drive the left completely nuts, but I feel that it's great news. They would rather see Bush get a political black eye rather than see things begin to be rebuilt and return to a sense of normalcy is Iraq. Such is life when you have moonbats like Harry Reid and Nancy Peolsi trying to circumvent the constitution- they seem to forget that the White House is running the show in Iraq, and I believe that democrats will pay the price in 2008.

A stable Iraq is not in Iran's interests, so eventually, they will have to be dealt with as well.

miditek wrote:Political stuff that is irrelevant to this thread and the incident at Virginia Tech university

We have another thread for that.