Stratovarius Community

... about the accuracy of the scientific data.

OK.. so I got your attention That bad news is that the problem might be worse than they have previously thought.

The scientists suggest forecasts from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) may be too cautious.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6610125.stm

Even has some charts and stuff.

All of that supports global warming. I won a copy of "An Inconvienent Truth" DVD from a freebie site. I'm looking forward to what Al Gore has to say about the problem. Now, there is a competing DVD called, "The Great Global Warming Swindle"(or something like that)

Anyway, the last link I put on my own Global Warming thread is quite frightening.

Actually, I'm not too worried about the effects of Global Warming for myself, I'll be ashes to dust long before its any major concern I think. But my grandkids might have issues&serious worries about the climate, though.

It's a sorry fact that this issue has gotten so politicised in US.

I hear you.


Well, you Scandinavians can look forward to having nice beaches. We Mexicans look forward to melting in the pavement.

miditek wrote:I can't believe all of you have fallen for the left wing Marxist conspiracy to destroy the economy of the USA. How can you all be so blind as to not see this is a liberal plot? It's so depressing to see all of you buying this leftist propaganda hook, line and sinker.

Well, figured I might as well get that out of the way

NeonVomit wrote:

miditek wrote:I can't believe all of you have fallen for the left wing Marxist conspiracy to destroy the economy of the USA. How can you all be so blind as to not see this is a liberal plot? It's so depressing to see all of you buying this leftist propaganda hook, line and sinker.

Well, figured I might as well get that out of the way

So the rules of the New (environmental) Order applies only to the US, and as I said before (quote that one as well, next time), that China and India get a pass?

miditek wrote:

NeonVomit wrote:

miditek wrote:I can't believe all of you have fallen for the left wing Marxist conspiracy to destroy the economy of the USA. How can you all be so blind as to not see this is a liberal plot? It's so depressing to see all of you buying this leftist propaganda hook, line and sinker.

Well, figured I might as well get that out of the way

So the rules of the New (environmental) Order applies only to the US, and as I said before (quote that one as well, next time), that China and India get a pass?

Noone said anything about China and India getting a pass. But USA have the means technology and money to do more for the environment! So does the rest of the developed world. The all-round showing from every rich nation is quite appalling really.

Carcass wrote:It's a sorry fact that this issue has gotten so politicised in US.

Yes, thats right. Instead of political issue, Global Warming&climate change should be a human/people issue. Its going to affect everyone regardless of political side.

browneyedgirl wrote:

Carcass wrote:It's a sorry fact that this issue has gotten so politicised in US.

Yes, thats right. Instead of political issue, Global Warming&climate change should be a human/people issue. Its going to affect everyone regardless of political side.

Absolutely, BEG, absolutely. Why don't people understand that this is not a political issue?

stratohawk wrote:

browneyedgirl wrote:

Carcass wrote:It's a sorry fact that this issue has gotten so politicised in US.

Yes, thats right. Instead of political issue, Global Warming&climate change should be a human/people issue. Its going to affect everyone regardless of political side.

Absolutely, BEG, absolutely. Why don't people understand that this is not a political issue?

Cuz there's a TON of money involved... therefore lobbying, therefore political.

Shit, I don't know? We lost power in my area several hours today. Whether its due to the overwhelming drought where I live, I dunno!
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19122499

People better forget about political parties&think about the climate. It does not matter what your opinion is politically, something is fucked up about the weather&climate. Open up your eyes!
And instead of blaming this person, or that country, think WHAT to do about it!!!! If, actually anything can be done at this point!!!
Whether its Global Warming, Solar Cycles, The Hand of God...whatever. Something is going on that is really strange......

I think the problem is, that most of the people (I just can talk about the people I know, and I asked about this topic, and about the things they said and do) just don't WANT to believe that there's a problem at all, everyone just says: swindle etc politicians just want to make some people listen to them...öhm WTF and scientists? What about them? They just tell bullshit to make people listening? öhm alright...
another problem is that people are informed and well sometimes even believe it but just don't care...they just don't care...I mean...you can't care everywhere I think, especially if you see that your attempts all fail and your efforts are in vain,but ingeneral, it doesn't do you that much harm to leave the car at home or turn down the heater a bit in winter and use more clothes instead or something but well...it's easier to not think about anything -.-
After I watched this Al Gore film I tried to discuss with some people I knew but I didn't do any progress...we also watched that film at school but there were some classmates who told me they SLEPT during that film and it was just boring and...hm yes. That's how this thing is headed -.-
Maybe we deserve to die out
I know a sarcastic joke:
There are two planets meeting. One doesn't look healthy. The other one asks: "Oh, what's the matter? You don't seem to feel good" The first one replies: "I've got mankind" "Oh, you're poor. I had them, too, but, don't worry, this passes by"

Me, My Enemy wrote:I think the problem is, that most of the people (I just can talk about the people I know, and I asked about this topic, and about the things they said and do) just don't WANT to believe that there's a problem at all, everyone just says: swindle etc politicians just want to make some people listen to them...öhm WTF and scientists? What about them? They just tell bullshit to make people listening? öhm alright...
another problem is that people are informed and well sometimes even believe it but just don't care...they just don't care...I mean...you can't care everywhere I think, especially if you see that your attempts all fail and your efforts are in vain,but ingeneral, it doesn't do you that much harm to leave the car at home or turn down the heater a bit in winter and use more clothes instead or something but well...it's easier to not think about anything -.-
After I watched this Al Gore film I tried to discuss with some people I knew but I didn't do any progress...we also watched that film at school but there were some classmates who told me they SLEPT during that film and it was just boring and...hm yes. That's how this thing is headed -.-
Maybe we deserve to die out
I know a sarcastic joke:
There are two planets meeting. One doesn't look healthy. The other one asks: "Oh, what's the matter? You don't seem to feel good" The first one replies: "I've got mankind" "Oh, you're poor. I had them, too, but, don't worry, this passes by"

People will care. Everything will be changed in the next 50 years.

TimoTolkki wrote:

People will care. Everything will be changed in the next 50 years.

I hope we do before then, this world is our heaven and we are turning it into a hell. We only have one home(so far, yup i'm a trekky fan ) and we aren't treating it like home.

dirge wrote:

TimoTolkki wrote:

People will care. Everything will be changed in the next 50 years.

I hope we do before then, this world is our heaven and we are turning it into a hell. We only have one home(so far, yup i'm a trekky fan ) and we aren't treating it like home.

I meant that they will care when we will get a celestial kick on our asses by Mother Nature. Until that it´s gonna be just bullshit and peanuts and countries&companies caring about their own interests and squeezing the last penny while the masses believe what is fed to them about that "it´s not so bad". It is. Very. Bad.

TimoTolkki wrote:

dirge wrote:

TimoTolkki wrote:

People will care. Everything will be changed in the next 50 years.

I hope we do before then, this world is our heaven and we are turning it into a hell. We only have one home(so far, yup i'm a trekky fan ) and we aren't treating it like home.

I meant that they will care when we will get a celestial kick on our asses by Mother Nature. Until that it´s gonna be just bullshit and peanuts and countries&companies caring about their own interests and squeezing the last penny while the masses believe what is fed to them about that "it´s not so bad". It is. Very. Bad.

Sadly that's how humanity works... look at 1938... "Oh its not so bad, in fact he made a marvelous job with the economy"...

I've also heard some world-acclaimed scientists saying that many people are too conceited...that mankind really can cause such a huge changes on this planet.
People do many bad things to the nature and to the Earth generally, it's without doubt. But are we really able to affect the climate so essentionally?? A lot of what is being said in the media or by politicians is just populism. I'm not saying that it's not true, but before I start to believe something, I want to see some evidence for that. And most of these things are just hypotheses. Nobody knows it now. We'll find out some day...

Summary Comments
Global temperature correlates with the concentration of greenhouse gases. Both have increased during the 150 years or so that humans have been putting these gases into the atmosphere. However, both temperature and gas concentration have fluctuated together for thousands of years, before humans could have had much effect. Humans may be causing the present rise in temperature, but not all temperature changes are caused by human activity.

http://vathena.arc.nasa.gov/curric/land ... mchng.html

http://vathena.arc.nasa.gov/curric/land ... enhou.html

For the climate-change ingeneral it's evidence enough, that you can see it every year...you know, I like skying...2005 I found the skying still quite okay, but 2006 there was nothing AT ALL...and those 38°C we had here in May...should give a reason to think about it, as well...

The evidence for me that WE all caused this is just that everything is so fucking logical...it fits...it really fits...this graphs and everything.

But maybe I just believe this all, because I'm a person who never believes in something good without an evil or something useful without a damage etc, so I always try to find the two sides of the medal...
and so I think there can't be machines which make work or anything MUCH easier unless causing MUCH harm on the other hand. Earth's no wonderland on my opinion, so I think...things like this were supposed to happen.

black death wrote:I've also heard some world-acclaimed scientists saying that many people are too conceited...that mankind really can cause such a huge changes on this planet.
People do many bad things to the nature and to the Earth generally, it's without doubt. But are we really able to affect the climate so essentionally?? A lot of what is being said in the media or by politicians is just populism. I'm not saying that it's not true, but before I start to believe something, I want to see some evidence for that. And most of these things are just hypotheses. Nobody knows it now. We'll find out some day...

Summary Comments
Global temperature correlates with the concentration of greenhouse gases. Both have increased during the 150 years or so that humans have been putting these gases into the atmosphere. However, both temperature and gas concentration have fluctuated together for thousands of years, before humans could have had much effect. Humans may be causing the present rise in temperature, but not all temperature changes are caused by human activity.

http://vathena.arc.nasa.gov/curric/land ... mchng.html

http://vathena.arc.nasa.gov/curric/land ... enhou.html

USA is by far the biggest producer of greenhouse emissions and there is evidence that the Bush government has threatened scientists to change their statements and that they have been falsified. All this to create confusion. Plus your links are badly outdated. They are from 1995-1997.
I think you really have to be blind not to see the change and to understand that 6 billion people and their energy consumption etc. is way beyond the earth can handle. In 35 years the estimated population is 9 billion. It´s just so sad..so very sad. Because it is too late. We are pass the turning point. Even if we would today stop ALL the greenhouse emissions, it would take 25 years before the atmosphere would be close to ACCEPTABLE level of them.
There is nothing mystical about global warming, it´s basics are really easy to understand. There is plenty of information about that.

Hillary is going to be nominated by the Democratic convention(hope)and she will(maybe)choose Al Gore to be her running mate. Then, if elected, make USA&the whole world a somewhat better place. Not perfect. Theres no such thing this side of Heaven. But, there will be good things coming. Just be patient.

BEG wrote
Hillary is going to be nominated by the Democratic convention(hope)and she will(maybe)choose Al Gore to be her running mate. Then, if elected, make USA&the whole world a somewhat better place. Not perfect. Theres no such thing this side of Heaven. But, there will be good things coming. Just be patient.

EVEN IF Al Gore would now be a running mate and take part in the government...it wouldn't change anything anymore, because I think as TT does, that it's just to late. I don't think that all the people in the world would change there behaviour to 0,0 emissions/person, because so many of them don't get the point, most of all people don't get the point it seems and EVEN IF some of them know but just don't care and as TT said EVEN IF they cared it would be late anyway, so there's to much even if for this world to be "rescued"
And one election can't change anything atm, I think.

miditek wrote:

NeonVomit wrote:

miditek wrote:I can't believe all of you have fallen for the left wing Marxist conspiracy to destroy the economy of the USA. How can you all be so blind as to not see this is a liberal plot? It's so depressing to see all of you buying this leftist propaganda hook, line and sinker.

Well, figured I might as well get that out of the way

So the rules of the New (environmental) Order applies only to the US, and as I said before (quote that one as well, next time), that China and India get a pass?

We with the power to make a difference have the responsibility to do so.

browneyedgirl wrote:Hillary is going to be nominated by the Democratic convention(hope)and she will(maybe)choose Al Gore to be her running mate. Then, if elected, make USA&the whole world a somewhat better place. Not perfect. Theres no such thing this side of Heaven. But, there will be good things coming. Just be patient.

Hillary is Gore's least likely running mate if he runs.
And Al Gore has already been VP for 8 years, if he wanted, he could announce and win every primary and the election without a problem.
Here are the Gore tickets I see possible.
Most likely: Gore/Edwards.
Very likely: Gore/Obama
Not as likely: Edwards/Gore
Not going to happen: Obama/Gore, Hillary/Gore.

Rebel wrote:

browneyedgirl wrote:Hillary is going to be nominated by the Democratic convention(hope)and she will(maybe)choose Al Gore to be her running mate. Then, if elected, make USA&the whole world a somewhat better place. Not perfect. Theres no such thing this side of Heaven. But, there will be good things coming. Just be patient.

Hillary is Gore's least likely running mate if he runs.
And Al Gore has already been VP for 8 years, if he wanted, he could announce and win every primary and the election without a problem.
Here are the Gore tickets I see possible.
Most likely: Gore/Edwards.
Very likely: Gore/Obama
Not as likely: Edwards/Gore
Not going to happen: Obama/Gore, Hillary/Gore.

Gore will never be the president of USA. He won the elections but the powers that be (the real powers) arranged that Puppet Bush has to win.
If Gore would be the president, he would be assasinated in 2 weeks.
There cannot be any profound changes in the system of USA. Anybody who threatens that, will be eliminated. Gore would change a lot of things but the tragedy of it all is that everybody in the past and now, who has tried to change things, has been eliminated or silenced in some way. This is the way how "society" works. It is based on the blind obedience of its citizens and the brainwashing for this starts already very early. The "holy" trinity: Family, Religion and Fatherland is the basis of the authoritarian, fear based society. US policy is to keep its citizens in fear with different methods and tactics. And people buy all that is fed to them. It is truly unbeliavable.

TT, I thought you were way too intelligent to be gullible to the CT doctrines&BS they spew across the 'net&media!
I guess you think Paul Wellstone&JFK,Jr. were murdered by the powers at large, too?

@Rebel, Gore&Obama sound promising, but I'm still hoping Hilary gets the nomination.

browneyedgirl wrote:TT, I thought you were way too intelligent to be gullible to the CT doctrines&BS they spew across the 'net&media!
I guess you think Paul Wellstone&JFK,Jr. were murdered by the powers at large, too?

@Rebel, Gore&Obama sound promising, but I'm still hoping Hilary gets the
nomination.

I don´t know what is "CT doctrines", I am using my own theories. This invisible power regime is very old. And it is very powerful.
I don´t know who is Wellstone or what happenened to JFK Jr, but JFK´s assasination was for sure a conspiracy and a coup d'etat. Even the House Select Comittee that reinvestigated the case in 78 came into this conclusion.
The reason he was killed was that Lyndon Johnson was more puppet than JFK, who might have been one president that actually really wanted to change things. He wanted to stop Vietnam, which was a big business. Bang. In comes puppet Johnson and the war was escalated the following DAY he was killed.
You are living in a country where the money rules. Most of these so called "wars against terrorism" are just this. Too bad that so many Americans believe what is fed to them. Or maybe they are starting to open their eyes when you look at the lates Bush figures.
If somebody here wants to make a bet, I bet a 1000 dollars that neither Gore nor Hilary Clinton will be the next president. It will be an organized puppet that serves the purposes of a very big money making industry that doesn´t give a rats ass about civil rights nor the climate change.

I think...Gore shouldn't even attempt to get the new president, because when he does so, many people who always called his film just propaganda for himself to win an election, could feel right.
Don't get me wrong, I would be glad if Gore were president, but as he won't become president anyway, he shouldn't even try. Because I know really lots of people who just thought or wanted to make others think, that Gore only does propaganda...and I don't want them to feel confirmed, because this misbelief could attach others as well, this way...
so if he had a chance he should try for sure but for he hasn't got one...maybe better let go of it, before things get even worse.
I don't know...but I fear so

TimoTolkki wrote:This invisible power regime is very old. And it is very powerful.

interesting movie (although a bit long and perhaps a little high on paranoia):

http://zeitgeistmovie.com/

@JensJohansson:
Thanks for this video. I'm still occupied watching it, I'm just at 0:35 now, because it's very hard for me understanding every word, for he sometimes speaks very fast (not unclearly or something, just fast), so I have to play some scenes again and again...
I wanted to ask you, whether you know, if this video is:
- available in other languages as well (for it's called "Zeitgeist" which is a german word, and german would be much easier for me to understand and furthermore I want to show it some people, whose english I suppose is even worse than mine)
- and if one is also able to buy it on a dvd or something, or to get it as a file
I don't know if it goes on as interesting as I find it atm (so til 0:35) but it seems to me as if it was worth buying it.
so...maybe it even helps if you tell me, how you got to this vid.

TimoTolkki wrote:USA is by far the biggest producer of greenhouse emissions and there is evidence that the Bush government has threatened scientists to change their statements and that they have been falsified. All this to create confusion. Plus your links are badly outdated. They are from 1995-1997.
I think you really have to be blind not to see the change and to understand that 6 billion people and their energy consumption etc. is way beyond the earth can handle. In 35 years the estimated population is 9 billion. It´s just so sad..so very sad. Because it is too late. We are pass the turning point. Even if we would today stop ALL the greenhouse emissions, it would take 25 years before the atmosphere would be close to ACCEPTABLE level of them.
There is nothing mystical about global warming, it´s basics are really easy to understand. There is plenty of information about that.

Yes, you're right. And USA are absolutely the biggest producer of those emissions who did NOT sign the Kyoto Protocol. Of course there's lot of evidence related to the harmful emissions and I don't question THIS.
The only thing I wanted to say is, that nobody knows if all those changes (global warming, ice melting etc.) are caused ONLY by humans. As well as nobody knows what was the cause of the ice age. There were no humans and it happened (or were there any humans?). I simply doubt that somebody (whoever) can tell me that this (I mean the current situation) would not happen if people were not creating all this pollution.

But of course, I'm for reduction of those emissions and other harmful human's activities that have bad impact on the nature.

Sorry for the outdated links, I just found something quickly on the internet. I remembered those doubts of some scientists because I've read recently (few months ago, I guess) something similar in newspaper...two scientists arguing about it together, each of them defending one point of view. Very interesting reading, unfortunately I threw it away probably