Why do People Hate Jews and Christians?

[Rebel]

[quote="TimoTolkki
Well that is certainly not a Christian God you are describing there.
Christianity is a religion where you must believe in Christ or you go to hell.
[/quote]
Timo, You are under a misconception that a large amount of the population suffers. I really hate sounding condescending, but it's true.
The Christian God is a god of love, that has offered us a gift of salvation. If you deny that gift, then that's your problem. I have accepted the gift.

The Church "God" is what you describe. Please, do not hold it against me that I speak in terms that assume my beliefs are truth, but instead, just listen to what I say and read it in the terms of my belief. (That may not have made much sense, but oh well).
Satan saw a large gathering of followers of Christ, grouped together. As humans many of us are too lazy to really drive our own faiths. We think our day in and day out problems are more important than the almighty (A term used to give glory to the creator in case you wanted to twist that). So we go to church because it feels right to some of us, but we will take anything that the pastors say because we assume they know more than we do. We assume they are more holy. But in the Eyes of God, as according strictly the body of the bible as a whole, not individual verses, but the underlying theme of the texts, we are all equal. So Satan sees an opportunity, instead of tempting each and every one of us away from the way, he will simply tempt the pastor. Instead of turning the members of the church away, he will turn those who have not accepted the gift away. So he makes the CHURCH into this body of hatred and holier than thou attitude. I am a child of God (Not like Jesus, just a child of God in a way that is hard to describe, my faith is defined by him and his word). Excuse my use of Him when applying to God, but it is what the bible says, and it is what I see in God's actions, that of a father, not a mother. Back on track, I am not a child of the church, I was raised Christian, but it was like God was in the same boat as the easter bunny and Santa, we all believed in them as children (Easter Bunny and Santa) but we wouldn't devout our lives to them. I never went to church very much, and through my experiences, discovered a hole in my heart that when I put God in it, fit right away. I felt complete with God. As of right now, I do attend church, but it is not the church you stereotype (Again, I am sorry for accusing you of such things, but there comes a time when facts must be stated). It is not a controlling church, it simply serves as a way to give glory to God. We have had TWO homosexual pastors, it is a sin, but we are all sinners, and no sinner is worse than another sinner. There is more to what I want to say, but I will allow you to question me on what I have said here before I go on. And I kindly thank the administrator who activated my account so quickly.

[miditek]

God or Allah?
foxnews.com/story/0,2933,293131,00.html

An interesting debate on theological semantics with Imam Shamsi Ali and Father Jonathan Morris.

Both panelists are highly educated and intelligent men, although I would tend to agree with Father Jonathan in this particular case, and on many points that he makes.

[Rebel]

Wait? When did FOX news finally get intellegent people?

[Rebel]

Timo, why did you use a Christian Prayer in the chorus of Know the Difference?

[browneyedgirl]

TEN COMMANDMENTS OF ATHEISM

1.Thou shalt have no gods before the state.
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any church building which mentions the Bible God.
3. Thou shalt not take the name of Charles Darwin in vain.
4. Remember the 5 weekdays because churches cannot undo in one day what folly atheism causes in 5.
5. Honor Mother Earth&Father Time so that your days shall be long and with no real meaning.
6.Thou shalt not kill, except those who the atheists deem as being unworthy, unproductive,imperfect, unwanted and ugly in their eyes.
7. Thou shalt commit adultery, fornication, homosexuality , or any kind of immoral sexual activity as long as "love" is used to justify it. And, thou shalt declare that stay-at-home wives&mothers who follow traditional female roles are lazy, mediocre, no-good women, and shame them for not making a living outside the home/"bettering" themselves.
8.Thou shalt use hard earned taxes to support a failing welfare system which divides families, seems to spread irresponsibility, and in general causes depression, low self-esteem and misery among the participents.
9.Thou shalt not bear any false witness against the theory of evolution.
10. Thou shall covet&enjoy the blessings and freedoms of a Christian nation, yet at every opportunity blaspheme and make fun of the God and Jesus Christ who make it possible for you to enjoy these blessings and freedoms.

[stratoplayer]

TEN COMMANDMENTS OF ATHEISM

1.Thou shalt have no gods before the state.
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any church building which mentions the Bible God.
3. Thou shalt not take the name of Charles Darwin in vain.
4. Remember the 5 weekdays because churches cannot undo in one day what folly atheism causes in 5.
5. Honor Mother Earth&Father Time so that your days shall be long and with no real meaning.
6.Thou shalt not kill, except those who the atheists deem as being unworthy, unproductive,imperfect, unwanted and ugly in their eyes.
7. Thou shalt commit adultery, fornication, homosexuality , or any kind of immoral sexual activity as long as "love" is used to justify it. And, thou shalt declare that stay-at-home wives&mothers who follow traditional female roles are lazy, mediocre, no-good women, and shame them for not making a living outside the home/"bettering" themselves.
8.Thou shalt use hard earned taxes to support a failing welfare system which divides families, seems to spread irresponsibility, and in general causes depression, low self-esteem and misery among the participents.
9.Thou shalt not bear any false witness against the theory of evolution.
10. Thou shall covet&enjoy the blessings and freedoms of a Christian nation, yet at every opportunity blaspheme and make fun of the God and Jesus Christ who make it possible for you to enjoy these blessings and freedoms.

You forget

THY SHALT NOT GIVE A FLYING FUCK ABOUT YOUR FELLOW MAN

[browneyedgirl]

You forget

THY SHALT NOT GIVE A FLYING FUCK ABOUT YOUR FELLOW MAN



Well, with atheists it is more like "THY SHALT NOT GIVE A FLYING FUCK ABOUT THOSE WHO YOU DO NOT FIND WORTHY ENOUGH TO CHOOSE TO BE IN YOUR LITTLE CLIQUE/GROUP/CULT......" Whatever.

[Carcass]

@BEG, I'm not sure why you posted that or what were the intentions of the writer. But what we have here is a compilation of all the typical perceptions of an American conservative concerning atheists.

I think they are quite funny. But I think the first one applies more to conservatives themselves than 'pinkos'. I'm sure you don't belive in the contents of the 8th commandment either.

[browneyedgirl]

@BEG, I'm not sure why you posted that or what were the intentions of the writer. But what we have here is a compilation of all the typical perceptions of an American conservative concerning atheists.

I think they are quite funny. But I think the first one applies more to conservatives themselves than 'pinkos'. I'm sure you don't belive in the contents of the 8th commandment either.

Its not perception. Its called observation.
You are a mind-reader now? Can you be arrogant enough to judge what another believes in---especially someone you never met?

Whats a pinko?

Oh, based on my occupation&life experience I have knowledge that the atheist 8th commandment(listed above) does tend to be true.

[NeonVomit]

So socialised health care is bad?

[Carcass]

Pinko is a leftist, if I'm not completely mistaken. I think it's pretty much out of use by now.

Based on what you said in another thread, the 8th commandment does not sound something you would sign. I can look it up for you if you want... didn't try to be arrogant.

Based on my limited life experience, I would say the 8th commandment is in most cases false (not all, though). My family happens to be one that has gotten much needed help from a well functioning wellfare system.

[NeonVomit]

Pinko is a leftist, if I'm not completely mistaken. I think it's pretty much out of use by now.

Based on what you said in another thread, the 8th commandment does not sound something you would sign. I can look it up for you if you want... didn't try to be arrogant.

Based on my limited life experience, I would say the 8th commandment is in most cases false (not all, though). My family happens to be one that has gotten much needed help from a well functioning wellfare system.

Right, that's the problem... Finland is a wealthy country with a small population. Socialised healthcare and welfare can work in such situations. Most EU countries have well-functioning systems like that.

The USA is a wealthy country with a vast population and the wealth isn't as evenly distributed. That's when problems occur. I don't know much about the situation but that's my analysis.

[Carcass]

Would that be a problem for the wealthiest nation in the world? Maybe the biggest hindrance is cultural...

[TimoTolkki]

Define atheist

[Rebel]

*sigh* the religous right...
Is it so wrong that I'm liberal but Christian? Supporting things like tolerance and helping the poor? Or is pushing bills that have almost no way of getting past the supreame court so that we can TRY to force other people not to sin (and in reality just making it more dangerous) So important that we can forsake so many other problems in the process?


@BEG I've known plenty of morally sound Athiests, here's the thing. We're all fuck up machines, giant, controlling fuck up machines. We live to screw up, all of us. If Christians were some how moral superiors to the rest of the world, Jesus wouldn't have had to die, now would he?

[TimoTolkki]

Define atheist and after that define God

[stratoplayer]

Define atheist and after that define God

To who is that directed.

Cuz BEG kinda of gave the LIBERAL COMMUNIST (depending on your view of politics) ATHEIST facet.

I thought it was funny, but it looks like its on par with saying;

Arabs strap bombs to their chest and blow up the first Jew/Christian/Infidel/Fire Hydrant/Kitty they come across.

[Rebel]

To be an Athiest is to be without religion.
And defining God? (Christian God I assume?)
God is love, simple as that.

[Me, My Enemy]

I think...everyone can have his "own religion" some way or they can have a great one in common with many others like Jewish religion, Christian religion etc.
I think, an Atheist is just someone who does not believe, and really misbelieves that some superior person who can manage everything and who has made up everything does exist.
But I don't think that you really have to follow this strange rules browneyedgirl came up with. otherwise I for one couldn't be an atheist, though I'm sure I am.
Atheism also hasn't anything to do with intolerance to people with one of the big religions or any religions. I think tolerance and intolerance as well can be in everyone, with or without religion, it's just a thing of ken, you know.
And there's nothing with: You may never ever have believed or believe in any kind of God or you may never ever visit any church...
I for one always listen if someone wants to explain to me why there's a sense in believing and I try to understand, though I have my own opinion, why not let everyone just believe in what he thinks is best for theirselves, as long as they don't do anyone any harm?
...and I think if there are atheists telling: No, you're not allowed to believe etc, they are just stupid people, as "believers" (don't know any other word atm) , who tell other to believe or try to prompt them, are as well.

[stratoplayer]

Hence my "Dont care what you want/do/don't do unless it bothers me" policy

By bother I mean affect me.

[miditek]

But I think the first one applies more to conservatives themselves than 'pinkos'.

'Pinko'! One of my favorite epithets! I first heard that word used on the classic CBS TV series "All in the Family" by the late actor Carroll O'Connor, who portrayed America's favorite bigot, Archie Bunker.

He would use the word in a phrase, such as this (like yelling at his wife, daughter, and son-in-law):

"Shut up, Dingbat! Shut up little goil (NY accent for girl). And shut up you dumb Commie pinko meathead!"

[Rebel]

People usually use the term pinko to try and call liberals gay (at least the way it's used where I am)
I laugh because there are probably a ton of closested gay republican senators/congresspeople who justify their guilt by ruining the lives of people who were brave enough to come out of the closet.

[browneyedgirl]

I think...everyone can have his "own religion" some way or they can have a great one in common with many others


I for one always listen if someone wants to explain to me why there's a sense in believing and I try to understand, though I have my own opinion, why not let everyone just believe in what he thinks is best for theirselves, as long as they don't do anyone any harm?
...and I think if there are atheists telling: No, you're not allowed to believe etc, they are just stupid people, as "believers" (don't know any other word atm) , who tell other to believe or try to prompt them, are as well.

Right on! Perfect answer! Because I believe that also! I have absolutely nothing against atheists, actually they have tended to be nicer than some of these people who are fanatic about their own gods/God based religions. The only reason I posted that post was that I saw it in a magazine at my place of work&I thought it would be great to see what reactions I'd get. Thank you!
And, I knew all along what a pinko is. I'm probably classified as one myself to alot of people.

@Rebel, I am a Liberal, too, but I do have some traditional leanings.

@Carcass, don't judge me. There is NOT an arrogant bone in my body. I know myself&how I feel about issues, and stuff. I am NOT an arrogant person.
And, I worked for a while in the county welfare (AKA Human Resources Dept) in the county I live in for awhile. So, I DO understand something about the workings of society&the problems its people can have. Of course, the USAs programs are probably totally different than other nations, as NV touched upon.

[NeonVomit]

Would that be a problem for the wealthiest nation in the world? Maybe the biggest hindrance is cultural...

When you have one government looking after 5 million people, and one government looking after 300 million people, it can be a big difference. It may be the wealthiest nation in the world, but the wealth isn't very evenly distributed and the fact that it covers such a huge area of landmass cannot be overlooked. And whatever one says, setting up a 'safety net' for a nation of 300 million is by definition going to be far more difficult than setting one up for 5 million.

Sure, things get devolved to a state level in the USA which is in itself another issue; different states will have different policies which is another factor in the inconsistancy of state care.

And yes, there is a 'cultural' factor, people in America tend to want less state intervention in their daily lives. In Europe we're just used to it so it doesn't bother us much.

Which is the right way for it to be? Neither, they both have their advantages and drawbacks.

miditek would claim that the American way is best because one could never reach the level of personal success in a European-like system; your hard work pays off for you and you're not doing anything for anyone else, which encourages social independance and hard work. Then again, he's never been in a position where he's been discharged from hospital one day after appendix surgery without being properly stitched up because his insurance didn't cover that possibility (which happened to a friend of mine because, as a student supporting herself, she couldn't afford the premiums for any better care).

You probably prefer to know that there is a 'safety net' for those who have the same sort of bad luck, and knowing deep down that if worst comes to worst, the government will NOT abandon you and really try to help you get on your feet again. But then again, you've never been in a position to see a huge proportion of your personal earnings, your hard work, disappear into government coffers in order to support those lower down, many of whom are probably just lazy and incompetant. Why should you pay for their failings?

There is no perfect system for running a country, each way has its advantages and drawbacks. And we should be happy to live in a world which allows us, those living in the developed West, to essentially choose what sort of state we'd like to live in. If I get tired of living in this sort of country, moving to another is a relatively simple manner. I'm not a starving migrant on a boat in the Mediterranean.

[Carcass]

I agree with you on many points and I don't claim to have any answers, just throwing in some questions. This certainly is not my area of expertise.

But then again, you've never been in a position to see a huge proportion of your personal earnings, your hard work, disappear into government coffers in order to support those lower down, many of whom are probably just lazy and incompetant. Why should you pay for their failings?

Is a person working as a CEO for a modern business corporation working any harder than somebody having two jobs and recieving only minimum wage?

In my opinion the notion that unemplyed people are lazy is so wrong. To most people being without work, farting their days away on the sofa watching TV Shop is one of the worst things that can happen. It strips off your self-esteem and ruins your health. According to Finnish statistics unemployed people die younger than employed. And if people are incompetent, well is it their fault? Should people be left alone like that?

[NeonVomit]

I agree with you on many points and I don't claim to have any answers, just throwing in some questions. This certainly is not my area of expertise.

But then again, you've never been in a position to see a huge proportion of your personal earnings, your hard work, disappear into government coffers in order to support those lower down, many of whom are probably just lazy and incompetant. Why should you pay for their failings?

Is a person working as a CEO for a modern business corporation working any harder than somebody having two jobs and recieving only minimum wage?

Being a CEO of a big corporation is one of the toughest, most demanding jobs imaginable. Sure, I think in many cases people are overpaid but mostly they deserve all of what they get. Taking orders from the boss is one thing. Being the boss and having to make all the crucial decisions is difficult in a totally different way. Of course, we all see Enron and think of them as fat cats who rip off their employees, but this isn't always the case. They reap many benefits, but if the company goes badly guess who takes the blame and pays the price...

In my opinion the notion that unemplyed people are lazy is so wrong. To most people being without work, farting their days away on the sofa watching TV Shop is one of the worst things that can happen. It strips off your self-esteem and ruins your health. According to Finnish statistics unemployed people die younger than employed. And if people are incompetent, well is it their fault? Should people be left alone like that?

See, that's exactly what I mean. That's how you see things. Others will see it differently. Others will think that incompetance should not be rewarded or encouraged.

If someone is unemployed (excluding of course health issues or similar circumstances which means they actually cannot work (young single mother with 2 young kids, for example)) I don't see why they should complain. If one lacks the qualifications to get anything decent, then they should just deal with what they do and not live on government handouts for the rest of their days.

But then again, you get thorny issues like large company layoffs and industrial decline. What to do with a well-trained individual in a certain field who simply isn't needed anymore? Expect them to sweep roads for a living when they are skilled in building complex electronic devices? That's why the issue just isn't cut-and-dried and there are no right or wrong ways of dealing with the situation.

In the UK, you get unemployment benefit as long as you are looking for work. If you are not, they simply won't help you. I think that's a good system.

'We'll help you out for as long as you need, but don't mess around.'

[Jaakko]

In the UK, you get unemployment benefit as long as you are looking for work. If you are not, they simply won't help you. I think that's a good system.

'We'll help you out for as long as you need, but don't mess around.'

That's how it works in Finland too I guess. But did you ever take into consideration some certainly common but often unnoticed little things like depression and stuff that doesn't literally make a person unable to work, but in real life it still seems like a wall a mile high to even get out and actually claim those benefits, let alone get out and get a job? The system does very little to help those who don't have the skill or energy to even seek help when in need.

Me and myself fall into a bit different category, although not a stranger to depression, I've lately found out (at 25 years old) that my life is pretty much dictated by certain autistic traits that cannot be "healed" with drugs or treated away with cognitive therapy, they're kinda hardwired in my brain, and they do make me quite unsuitable for any "normal" work or school environment. It kind of sucks to read comments like yours, as if you're implying that I should just get off my ass and conquer the world. It's kind of weird to live in a world where the smallest things can be obstacles the size of Mt. Everest when it comes to advancing in a school or on a career (conquering the everyday trip to the grocery store gives perpetual sweat). This attitude of the commercial world only giving benefits for the "normal people in temporary trouble" kind of makes the (rest of us) lifelong weirdos like zoo animals, as if our human rights are only words in some fancy speech of some newly elected UN person, and even when we do the very best we can, we can't even get a job... I don't know, politics is a hard issue, I'm certainly glad I live in Finland and not in Japan, I would've committed suicide in the career-oriented competitive superefficient formal system in there that starts from like the age of 5. Heh.

[TimoTolkki]

Me and myself fall into a bit different category, although not a stranger to depression, I've lately found out (at 25 years old) that my life is pretty much dictated by certain autistic traits that cannot be "healed" with drugs or treated away with cognitive therapy, they're kinda hardwired in my brain, and they do make me quite unsuitable for any "normal" work or school environment. It kind of sucks to read comments like yours, as if you're implying that I should just get off my ass and conquer the world. It's kind of weird to live in a world where the smallest things can be obstacles the size of Mt. Everest when it comes to advancing in a school or on a career (conquering the everyday trip to the grocery store gives perpetual sweat). This attitude of the commercial world only giving benefits for the "normal people in temporary trouble" kind of makes the (rest of us) lifelong weirdos like zoo animals, as if our human rights are only words in some fancy speech of some newly elected UN person, and even when we do the very best we can, we can't even get a job... I don't know, politics is a hard issue, I'm certainly glad I live in Finland and not in Japan, I would've committed suicide in the career-oriented competitive superefficient formal system in there that starts from like the age of 5. Heh.

First of all Jaakko, you are not a weirdo. Secondly I think that highly intelligent people like you are more sensitive to the everyday challenges we all face. Whatever is "hardwired" in your "brain" (based on my own 7 years of bodytherapy I can tell you that brain is just a small part of your system. Human psyche and unconscious is not in the brain but in the whole body) can be "unwired" too. And at least you are aware of certain things in your behaviour patterns and that makes it whole different cause most people are not really conscious. The pain enlargens your consciousness. It´s a cruel fact. I am very pessimistic to any of these short term therapies or behavioural therapies or NLP or whatever. Neither I am supporting Freud´s psychoanalytic theory completely. I think nowadays the best help you might get is medical treatment combined with long term therapy. That is the only thing that will bring the cure, but it can take as long as 10..even 15 years. Unprogramming takes a long time.."unwiring".
If you are interested, send me a PM and I recommend some good therapists for you.

[Rebel]

I think...everyone can have his "own religion" some way or they can have a great one in common with many others


I for one always listen if someone wants to explain to me why there's a sense in believing and I try to understand, though I have my own opinion, why not let everyone just believe in what he thinks is best for theirselves, as long as they don't do anyone any harm?
...and I think if there are atheists telling: No, you're not allowed to believe etc, they are just stupid people, as "believers" (don't know any other word atm) , who tell other to believe or try to prompt them, are as well.

Right on! Perfect answer! Because I believe that also! I have absolutely nothing against atheists, actually they have tended to be nicer than some of these people who are fanatic about their own gods/God based religions. The only reason I posted that post was that I saw it in a magazine at my place of work&I thought it would be great to see what reactions I'd get. Thank you!
And, I knew all along what a pinko is. I'm probably classified as one myself to alot of people.

@Rebel, I am a Liberal, too, but I do have some traditional leanings.

@Carcass, don't judge me. There is NOT an arrogant bone in my body. I know myself&how I feel about issues, and stuff. I am NOT an arrogant person.
And, I worked for a while in the county welfare (AKA Human Resources Dept) in the county I live in for awhile. So, I DO understand something about the workings of society&the problems its people can have. Of course, the USAs programs are probably totally different than other nations, as NV touched upon.

Your post on the 10 commandments of Athiests could come off a bit arrogent.

Religion and Morals don't go hand in hand. I've Christians with out a moral bone in their body.
I've seen Chrisitans who are VERY Moral
I've seen Athiests without a Moral bone in their body
And I've seen some extreamely good people that just don't happen to believe in a God.

Don't think people bind their morals to thier faiths, because a lot of people would very easily push their faiths aside for the sake of convienance.

[miditek]

Is a person working as a CEO for a modern business corporation working any harder than somebody having two jobs and receiving only minimum wage?

Absolutely. A competent CEO is never really "off-duty". My father, who is a retired manufacturing CEO, used to work 16 hour days, six and seven days a week when he was younger.

The average CEO has a lot to worry about. Dealing with customers, employees, managers, partners, vendors (suppliers), and shippers. Meeting sales goals, maintaining profitability margins in order to meet payroll and take care of the company's many other expenses. This is not to mention having to justify each month's P&L (Profit & Loss) statements, as well as quarterly and annual financial reports. The stockholders want returns on their capital investment via annual stock dividends, and frequently pester the board, who in turn prod the CEO on this all-consuming issue.

Dealing with compliance (payroll tax, unemployment tax, Medicare tax, corporate tax returns), employee benefits- such as health insurance, various other government bureaucracies such as OSHA and the EPA, dealing with the company's board of directors at monthly meetings, then there are stockholder meetings, budgetary committee meetings, sales meetings, and a host of other things to contend with.

In my opinion the notion that unemployed people are lazy is so wrong.

I think that it's a mistake to assume that every single person in a certain demographic (such as the unemployed) are all there due to the same situation or circumstance. Some people are unemployed because they were laid off, due to a lack of work and is no fault of their own. Others have been dismissed from their position due to performance and/or disciplinary problems, while still others voluntarily resign from a company.

Some job candidates will be more resourceful and earnest in finding new work more quickly than others. If I could only show you how many vocalists and drummers that I've played with over the years to illustrate how this rule applies.