Ingrid Betancourt is free!

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NeonVomit
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Re: Ingrid Betancourt is free!

Post by NeonVomit » Fri Jul 18, 2008 7:11 pm

AGAG wrote:sounds pretty much like El Salvador's civil war history (Except for the drug dealing)

BTW is it confirmed that the FARCs deal drugs?? I mean why such an organization would be willing to forget their ideals so easily?
just asking...
Not so much 'confirmed' as 'it's been blatantly obvious for the last 15 years'.

Everyone knows where they get their money from.

They no longer fight for ideals, it's mostly a refuge for criminals. The real idealists are dying off.
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AGAG
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Re: Ingrid Betancourt is free!

Post by AGAG » Sun Jul 20, 2008 5:43 am

then no one likes freedom... :(
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Just a Vampire
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Re: Ingrid Betancourt is free!

Post by Just a Vampire » Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:56 pm

Is not about like or dislike freedom. is just that money has a huge power to corrupt people's minds. So, in the hunger for money, they forgot what they were figthing for
Colombia's situation haven't changed too much since 1948, but there have been important changes and they lose their motto.
Later: a lil explanation of this :D :oops:
"now he knows his father betrays
now his wings turns to ashes to ashes his grave"

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nikilismkito
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Re: Ingrid Betancourt is free!

Post by nikilismkito » Sat Jul 26, 2008 10:52 am

Ok I just opened an account here to share with you what I know about my country, Colombia. Im a really big fan of stratovarius and more metal bands, and I randomly saw this ''topic'' on the forum. I used to have an account before but I never used it again.
Alright..
Let me tell you a little about Colombia.
Colombia has been ruled by landlords since a really long time ago. Corrupted landlords. This is why the ''guerrilla'' appeared, The Landlords were abusing people and pushing everyone away. When it started, the guerrilla was a true revolutionary movement, and they actuallt had ideals and good intentions. The landlords, in order to defend themselves from the guerrilla, created a private armed group called ''Autodefensas'' (auto-defenses) AKA paramilitares. This stupid war started many years ago. Both groups (guerrillas and paramilitares) mutated into plain criminals. Colombia's president is called Alvaro Uribe. It is a fact that his father created one of those autodefensas groups, his father was a paramilitar. The guerrillas killed Alvaro Uribe's dad, so now he is looking for vengance. Since the main media in colombia is private, and its controlled by corporation owners (landlords as well), the whole system is basically allowing the paramilitares govern. I used to live in a city called Santa Marta. The city and the area is ruled by paramilitares, and when someone gets shot or there's an attack to the people, the media blames the guerrilla. The fact is that there is NO guerrilla in Santa Marta at all.
Its so funny, a big huge stupid screen and noone realizes. People outside Colombia really dont know anything about the real situation there. Even Colombians who live in Colombia are not aware of all the shit happening right in front of their eyes. Uribe's main counselor, Óscar Iván Zuluaga Escobar, is (Im not sure if you say it this way in english or not) ''Prime Brother'' (''Primo hermano'' in spanish) of Pablo Escobar. The thing is that Uribe's councelor is a close relative of PABLO ESCOBAR. Drug Lord. Uribe's father was also investagated for drug trade. EVERY SINGLE SENATOR SUPPORTING URIBE IS BEING INVESTIGATED AND IT IS NOT A SECRET THAT THEY NEGOTIATE WITH PARAMILITARES.
Colombia is being devastated by paramilitares and guerrillas. Paramilitares tend to be as bloody or more as the guerrillas. both are sick. Its just a big huge business for a bunch of people. they own land by killing the people who used to live there. They kidnap people. they do whetever they want with indigenous communities. their business is the drug trade. cocaine. Most high-class people in Colombia were, are or have been involved with drug lords and drug cartels in some way. Thats why all the media, landlords, and traditional families LOVE Uribe, they're all the same kind of people. Some people develop fanatism towards Uribe. Its fucking retarded. The media is such a strong influence in this country. Im so sad it has to be this way. Colombia is a beautiful place, and people here are good, but a bunch of motherfuckers are destroying everything.

nikilismkito
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Re: Ingrid Betancourt is free!

Post by nikilismkito » Sat Jul 26, 2008 11:19 am

I forgot to mention that I do not believe that it was a military operation, tricking the guerrilla to rescue Ingrid and people.
I think the government paid a lot of money for the hostages.
Uribe used this to get his populatiry high. He's going for a SECOND re-election. and people are crazy about him. its just so hopeless. What is gonna happen next? I wonder how Colombia is gonna be in some years. Until Uribe and his party are truly investigated, and the government stops getting involved with guerrillas and paramilitares, until then, this country will still be corrupted and fucked up. The truth needs to be said. Im sick of reading lies. Im sick of watching fake news. Im sick of seeing my people die.

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Paola
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Re: Ingrid Betancourt is free!

Post by Paola » Sat Jul 26, 2008 11:07 pm

I agree in many things and if we read all the thread we can see that the conclusion was here many time ago and is that the world doesn't know how is live in Colombia... About Uribe's topic I repeat we've a war with many years, the people are tired, specially the young people, so many people don't care Uribe's past right now; i don't care it, i only care if he could end this war 'cause like you said colombia is so beautiful and everyone in the planet has to know it; I want a better country for my nephews and yes, I want a better country for me, where i can go without fear, where I can go without to see first if that place is a red zone or not, I think isn't just that many people born and grow up knowing the reality of the war. I dunno if you could see the documentary about "Tres Matas" in the Radar program, you can't believe how the childs see all this shi*. Well, I know the Uribe's truth like you but now, you know the reasons that i've to ignore it and I guess many people are doing the same. However, if we aren't with Uribe or if we're, we're hurting by this reality and we don't have to see the war like another people and the world only says bad things about colombia when they don't know the fucking truth! like all the colombians do.
A last thing I've to say, Uribe took the presidency 'cause the people wanted it and wanted it twice; we can't do nothing about, only we can accept it and wait to the next elections. Uribe'll end his period at 2010 so, is a stupid thing saw his past now, we had to saw it before, like 8 years ago and done something about, we only can to say: Why have we to cried in the spilled milk?
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AGAG
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Re: Ingrid Betancourt is free!

Post by AGAG » Sun Jul 27, 2008 9:40 pm

I respect your point of view.

I would like to say that El Salvador has pretty much the same history, just with some name changes ("Paramilitaries" - "Death Squads" (Escuadrones de la muerte) "Alvaro Uribe" - "ARENA"... and a long Etc.)
And I do believe, as I stated in some posts above, that every war has a meaning. Don't misunderstand my opinion, I've never even visited Colombia, so I can't even imagine your reality, but I live in mine which is pretty similar to yours... So I can say that I do think that our war had a meaning, all the people that chose death for our country were true patriots and no one will once recall their heroism. Here we can see some pictures of childs with guns, tortured dead bodies, wounded soldiers dying on the forests... and people don't give a fuck.

Media in here is crap aswell, we only hear and read good things about our goverment, when everyone knows it's just crap...

Getting back on the war topic, wars always happen because you can't stand your own life, thus you actually prefer death than this shitty reality... That happened here (In 1992, when the war ended, 65% of our population lived in poverty.) that's because I think we needed our war.

At the end things really didn't get better, but at least we got heard... and aomewhere around 2009 there's a really good chance that things will change... we just have hope.

I can't say something like that about Colombia but the war in there must have a meaning... am I wrong?
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Just a Vampire
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Re: Ingrid Betancourt is free!

Post by Just a Vampire » Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:07 pm

Well, I'm agree with you, civil wars begins 'cause people prefers to die instead keep living in the same conditions. In fact, the most of the people here is in the poverty even when the media says it isn't true.

We all know, here and there and everywhere that media is controled by those with enough money to pay for the silence (or to kill to shut up any annoying journalist, we all know that too). So, one way or another, media will never say the whole truth, only pieces of it. So it happens here
Media doesn't show that here are only 2 social groups, the rich (more less like the 10% controlling the 90% of the wealth) and the poor (who are the 90% controlling only the 10% of the wealth here). here, the poor gets another 2 groups: those who live in extreme poverty and those who barely can buy the basic things to live without luxury (dunno the percentages).

Other thing nor media nor anyone realises is that the education is maybe one of the worst ones, 'cause an ignorant people is easy to control than an educated people. So, in the middle of all this, people is too worried to get food and a chance to live "confortably" to care if anyone else have lesser chances to survive, or if a indigenous child was "recruited" into the guerrilla forces, of if any paramilitary group has killed X people with chainsaws. Besides, colombian people has lost the capability to get terrified for this. Yeah, people is getting tired of all this being all the same all the time, so they go to those gatherings and walkings, but people doesn't realise that the root of all this are the landlords, as nikilismkito said. with all our ability to react damaged, no one cares if the politician for X or Y town "redirects" the money originally destined to feed the poor children to build a better and bigger house to himself.

Once, not so far ago, was discovered that in Choco, maybe the poorest state on Colombia, some mayors used a lot of food for children in development (a product name bienestarina) to feed pigs instead children, when in the same time severtal children died for starvation in the same state. there was popular indignation for ...somewhat...2 weeks and then the case was forgotten. tha happens with all the tyhings that happen here, so while the colombian people keeps this lack of memory, the things will never change. The landlords are interested on this last part

So I think guerrilla started for the reason I said in the beginning and the reason AGAG said. but I think they get corrupted by the easy money, and also becuase the same violence of the war here. Things become senseless, IMHO, so the started on thinking on the money that war produced. People was forgot, because in a really colombian way of thinking, they started to think on themselves instead on the others who had a reason to fight for. that's why I say guerrilla is no longer that "Che Guevara" fashioned movement the foreigners think it is.

And there is also no chance for any real politician interested in the people to reach the presidential chair. the landlords, rich people and Co. will never allow that. Just remebering JE Gaitán, Luis Carlos Galán, and those others who were a lil bit promising for the poor people in here.

Anyway, hope is the last thing that looses. lets keep hoping for a change, but we need to do something for it. the thing is that I don't get any idea. the politic way doesn't works, the violence doesn't too, so, I'm out of ideas.

Any suggestions??

pd: I hope this post to be coherent and easy to understand. I'm writing with my head and my heart, and english is not my mother tongue :D
"now he knows his father betrays
now his wings turns to ashes to ashes his grave"

Iron Maiden: Fligth of Icarus

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AGAG
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Re: Ingrid Betancourt is free!

Post by AGAG » Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:40 am

I was recently watching a documentary about violence in Colombia, it was on MTV I think, and... what can I say? It's reality all over again, killing society... I think everyone has heard about maras, and if you don't, you should read a little about them; those are the consecuences of greed and opression in here.

I watched another documentary about Pablo Escobar on discovery channel and there's a scene, after he died when his body was getting buried... It's just incredible, the amount of people that were there, crying in pain for him, knowing that he was a drug lord, that he killed people, that he was evil... (He helped a lot of them as the documentary said) That's just an example of why life is so unfair; nowadays, people would rather live for a lie than suffer with reality... such weakness from our people... however it is completely understandable because of their (Our) situation which doesn't seem to improve

Because of it, violence is a lot more effective than truth, we have to understand...

Solutions?
let's bare our pain with pride since it's our only friend in these worlds...
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Paola
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Re: Ingrid Betancourt is free!

Post by Paola » Mon Aug 04, 2008 11:51 pm

my guy, here we can't speak with liberty 'cause you could die. The silent law.
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AGAG
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Re: Ingrid Betancourt is free!

Post by AGAG » Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:01 am

I understand, It was absolutely the same thing in here before the war, many people died because of it , whole families were killed and later the war started... get my point?
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Just a Vampire
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Re: Ingrid Betancourt is free!

Post by Just a Vampire » Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:27 pm

Well, I must recognise that Pablo Escobar did a lot for the poor people in Medellin, Really a lot compared to the things the government did. He managed to improve the life quality of the people who lived in miser, while the government only cared for improve the life quality of the rich people. That's why people cried for him. I remember the words of Pablo's sister in his burial "Do you think the violence in colombia will stop? Do you Really think that? (to a journalist) tell me, please!"
How rigth she was.

Again, I'm still wondering if Colombia's situation will ever change
"now he knows his father betrays
now his wings turns to ashes to ashes his grave"

Iron Maiden: Fligth of Icarus

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