Stratovarius Community

The Franco-Colombian ecologist political woman Ingrid Betancourt was freed yesterday, after having been hostage of the FARC during 6 years.
3 Americans and 11 Colombians were liberated with her.
She was surprisingly in good health, and was even interviewed several times. She'll come back to France tomorrow to spend time with her family.
A lesson of courage...

yeah, she and 14 persons are free too, including the three americans. However, I prefer speak about the colombian militar operation. My god!! it was amazing, they went and entered in the FARC-EP and they didn't use the violent in the operation.

COLOMBIA RULES!!! but we've to salve more people who are still there.

Overall, the FARC has to stop taking people in hostage. I know it sounds very utopic, but that would be the best thing (after having freed the current ones...)

that's not so truth or well, if they do that the colombian soldiers find they and bother a lot so, they don't have more options that let the people free. however, we can't stay in an utopic situation 'cause is bad. The FARC can make an attack in any city, they don't care kill innocent people.

we've to think what the he** going to say Cano (the new leader of the FARC), 'cause the "jaque" operation was a hard militar hit to the FARC, if cano is smart he began to think about the humanitary thing.
Right now, we can see that the war is ending. We hope that, we don't want more war it has 50 years old and the young people is tired, we don't have more.

well, we agree!

In France we mostly talked about Ingrid Betancourt, the situation with the FARC, but not a lot of the other hostages. I don't know if they're all in such a good health...

they're not ok.

Colombian people are thinking that france ended the participation with the other hostages

I just read a report in the newspaper that said that surveillance helicopters had seen hostages bathing in a river at a remote jungle location back in 2003, but that tracking the hostages was difficult since they were being moved frequently by FARC operatives.

It is always a good thing to see innocent people being rescued safely, and I am sure that Mdm. Bettancourt was delighted to see her children again.

yeah, the hostages have to walk a lot and now, when the situation is bad to the FARC they are moving a lot.

however I let u a little phrase from a letter by Mendieta, he is the fat fish in the hostages here and I guess he is more important than ingrid Betancourt 'cause he is a colonel. He is still in the jungle, he has 10 years there.

"isn't the physical pain that stops me, neither the chains in my neck atorments me, is the mental agony, the badness of the bad guy and the indifference of the good one"

speaking of which... you should take a look at this:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2040731/posts

Switzerland? seems kind of reliable, right?
I wonder if they would have paid that much if they were not americans

AGAG wrote:speaking of which... you should take a look at this:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2040731/posts

Switzerland? seems kind of reliable, right?
I wonder if they would have paid that much if they were not americans

In other words, the rescue was a "set-up"?
Sometimes, I guess, the Ends justify the Means, but if that article is true it smells of some kind of corruption.
When the FARC needs money again, what are they going to do? Kidnap some more people?

No, not a set up. Bribery is a common tactic. Paying for information is a very common method used so far. Then, the people who accept the payments usually have to be rescued as well

I'm very glad this is all done. Still many more people being held, but this is very encouraging news.

http://news.mobile.msn.com/en-us/articl ... d=25533846

More about the rescue. Yes, its always good to hear that hostages have been saved, and they are in good condition. Many times the outcome of such a horrible condition(being held captive/hostage)is not so good.

about the paying thing (sh*t). They want like 15 millons of dollars for a f**king soldier, now we've 15 person, there are the three americans and Ingrid (the internationals fats fish) so, ask to yourself "how many cash they can have for them? the answer is easy is more of 100 millons of dollars or maybe euro's and:

1) Colombia doesn't have that money.
2) If they want that money why doesn't france pay it before?
3) U.S.A always says: "We don't negotiate with terrorits" so...
4) Uribe never makes it and he knew about the operation, 'cause he had to gave them the authorization.


My god, why when the people are happy a fuc*ing jac*a** has to fuc*e* it

Fidel Castro calls for Farc to give up remaining hostages.

Yup, things are definately changing.

Paola wrote:about the paying thing (sh*t). They want like 15 millons of dollars for a f**king soldier, now we've 15 person, there are the three americans and Ingrid (the internationals fats fish) so, ask to yourself "how many cash they can have for them? the answer is easy is more of 100 millons of dollars or maybe euro's and:

1) Colombia doesn't have that money.
2) If they want that money why doesn't france pay it before?
3) U.S.A always says: "We don't negotiate with terrorits" so...
4) Uribe never makes it and he knew about the operation, 'cause he had to gave them the authorization.


My god, why when the people are happy a fuc*ing jac*a** has to fuc*e* it

Yeah, something was fishy about all that, but like I said, to some people if the Ends are good, the Means don't count.
Once again, if the FARC needs more money later, are they gonna kidnap some more people?

browneyedgirl wrote:

Paola wrote:about the paying thing (sh*t). They want like 15 millons of dollars for a f**king soldier, now we've 15 person, there are the three americans and Ingrid (the internationals fats fish) so, ask to yourself "how many cash they can have for them? the answer is easy is more of 100 millons of dollars or maybe euro's and:

1) Colombia doesn't have that money.
2) If they want that money why doesn't france pay it before?
3) U.S.A always says: "We don't negotiate with terrorits" so...
4) Uribe never makes it and he knew about the operation, 'cause he had to gave them the authorization.


My god, why when the people are happy a fuc*ing jac*a** has to fuc*e* it

Yeah, something was fishy about all that, but like I said, to some people if the Ends are good, the Means don't count.

So, It's okay to kill thousands of people in a war in order to "Reestablish peace"?

browneyedgirl wrote: Once again, if the FARC needs more money later, are they gonna kidnap some more people?

They will probably, I don't think the FARC got those 20 million, I've heard some versions that some guards there were paid and then they ran away with the money...

@ Paola: that means that the US and colombia are obviously linked with some serious ilegal deals then... since the US only took action because of the American hostages.

This is not the first time the USA has had controversy regarding release of hostages. Remember Iran-Contra? When it was rumored Reagan gave Iran a shitload of guns&such in trade to release the hostages held in the Embassy. There was a big trial&investigation(remember Ollie North, anyone)but, in the end nothing was done&it was all inconclusive.

Paola and JaV say:

About the Colombian situation: I'm really sure that france and the rest of the world will forget the topic of the colombian hostages. Ingrid Betancourt has the french citizenship, and the 3 americans are....americans. People from other countries. Before of that, the most of the people in US and in France didn't even know where the heck Colombia is. After that, some uninformed french people demanded the colombian government to release Ingrid, thinking that it was the colombian government, not the Farc, who kidnapped her. Well, Sarkozy told people that it was not rigth, but it demonstrates how uninformed was (and still is) the people in europe.

I remember a thread that was posted here, if I'm not wrong, about some danish people that supported the farc by making "donations to help education", for making schools or something related, more less a year ago. I think it was Paola who posted it. Well, let me tell you what does the Farc with that money: they dont build or helped any school or town, they did the opposite, by landmining a school in a town. But going back with the post, it was only checked by a few people and was quickly forgot. So, until the rescue of IB, no one took care, here or in other real or virtual places, about the hostage situation in Colombia. Even more, there is people who think that the Farc guerrilla is a romantic revolutionary movement and still support'em, when the real facts are that they're a TERRORIST group who kills the innocent people they say they're protecting.

Let's check this last: the complete name of the Farc is "FARC-EP" in spanish it means "Fuerzas Armadas Revolucionarias de Colombia-Ejercito del Pueblo"; in english" Colombian Revolutionary Armed Forces-People's Army". They say they figth for the people, when the facts are that they come to a town, destroy it with home-made bombs, kills all the police or soldiers, no matter the innocent people who dies in the process, take the military survivors to kidnapp'em, and then leave. Sometimes they also kidnapps the health workers, (a friend of mine was really close to be kidnapped, luckily she hide herself under a table). Other times they came, select randomly a few inhabitants of the town and murders them in front of the whole poplulation of the same town, sometimes forcing their women and children to look how they die and how they play soccer with the heads of the dead men. Other times, especially in native indigenous towns, they also take the children they can, boys and girls, to recruit them and use'em as the first line in the fights with the army. Is well known here that the security forces of Alfonso Cano, the new leader of the Farc, are mainly children. Do you think is fair that a kid lose his/her childhood by killing soldiers or other kids???

Some examples of the destruction that Farc leave in the towns they come are the next ones:
(some of them are pretty hard and unappropiated for children and sensitive people)

www.latinamericanstudies.org/colombia-warfare.htm (bomb-collar.the woman died, despite the efforts of the soldiers to save her)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2iDg3Icp48 (destruction of Mitú, a town in the border with Brazil. this video shows how the Farc "helps" the colombian people)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PT22zDQBQyY :
destruction of Bojayá, a town near to Panamá. Let me explain this: For a unknown-to-me reason the Farc guerrilla destroyed the fisher town of Bojayá in may 2nd, 2002. more then 100 people, older people, women and children took shelter on the church, the only concrete-made building in the town. Nobody would suspect that they could bomb the church. They killed almost all the inhabitants of the town, 44 kids included. The black man interviewed said "The biggest pain seen in the world is this. To see that bunch of lil' kids, headless, without anything. Without any guilt, without any guilt of anything, man! Because of the violence man!, killing us who have nothing man!. Oh my God!, oh God!"

The following man is the General Mario Montoya Uribe, the commander of the Army on those days. He says: " This is a lil' shoe of a kid. and like this one, were murdered 44 kids, the others are the moms of this kids who were sheltered on the church". Is hard to see a general of the army, hardened through the years, crying after the finding of the shoe. The whithe letters say: "these are the mindless actings of the narco-terrorist group of the Farc against the defenseless civilian population. We reject this act, a flagrant violation of the human rigths. Peace on the graves of the Bojayá victims. RIP

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maP22ONJbtg (bomb in El Nogal Club, in Bogotá).

Or easily, search in youtube or in google the following words: guerrilla
colombia
patascoy
mitu
bojaya
Las delicias
Alan Jara (he was kidnapped while he was traveling on a UN car)
Remember to join some of those with the words "toma guerrillera". many of those are in spanish, (becasue the only interested on see this speak only spanish).

As you can see, guerrilla is a Terrorist group. And, painful as it can be, President Uribe is the only one in a quite long time that did anything to figth one of the problems of Colombia. Yeah, is only one, but is a beginning. Since he is in the power, there haven't any violent take of any town, and some people who flew from their homes had returned to their towns, after the recovering of the lands with the help of the army.

About the Operación Jaque:
1) those rumours about money are false. If the Farc demand 200 millions of Pesos (like 117.647 dollars) for a common kidnapped civilian, how many money would they demand for someone like IB or the americans??? is a HUGE amount or money. There is no way the french government gather it, or the american government (who don't negotiate with terrorists, as Paola said) who is in a recession.

2) Can't people believe it was a 100% genuine colombian operation? Farc cannot recognise it was a master hit, so they spread rumours to stain the glory of the colombian military intelligence.

Yeah, there may be some illegal movements between the US and Colombian governments, as well as in any other country. The one who has no guilt, please throw the first rock. Please be sure that your country REALLY has no illegal deals with other countries.

Anyway, I'm sure many of you cannot believe or understand this. You have to live it to feel it the way it is. There is no way you can say anything about it, because no one of you have friends who were menaced by the guerrilla, or friends who were almost kidnapped, or relatives killed by a landmine. Or a bomb in front of your houses, among others.

Sorry for the length of this post, and if anyone flag it as unappropiate, please delete it. (Sure it can be unappropiate. Jens, please don't ban me )

Thank you for this very interresting post (I don't think it will ever be flagged or deletd).
You are right when you say that Europeans aren't informed at all. I mean, we just learnt about what is happening in Colombia with the IB case. And she was the only person who interested the French politicians.
Now, everywhere in the magazines, they talk about Ingrid, her family, and so on. I'm delighted she was freed, but we shouldn't forget the other hostages/ex-hostages. But Sarkozy has other things to deal with...(note a strong irony in this sentence.), we wants to be everywhere in the world, but he can't. And given that he doesn't take time to get informed, to think over what to do, he is everywhere, but does nothing, or only partly. And meanwhile, the country has its own problems...
I believe what you said about the FARCs, I already heard about it, without all the details though. It is terrible, and really a pity that no one in the rest of the world cares or even knows about it.

you couldn't know the true about patascoy, 'cause the information about there the almost will be supporting the FARC, TERRORIST group ( I don't know a bad word so big to offense them). I met a person who could saw that pic's and the video, and he says:" See that video and that pic's is see the evil in flesh 'cause is SO horrible".
Something to say, Patascoy was the first place destruyed by the FARC. However, I can stay all the day telling you all these things. I guess if the Danish still stay here, he changed his mind , I guess.
If you put in google (images) patascoy If I'm right the first pic is a dead soldier and in the second page you see a cadaver so bad, you can't know if it was a human being. He was the soldier Mauricio Hidalgo and he died in that battle.
A last thing, one of the three americans rescued said:" Well, we free now but what could be happen with the other hostages?, maybe the FARC torture them more".
The thing most important about Ingrid is that she began to spaek to all europe and show the true face of the FARC.

BTW: Uribe began to see the ELN (another terrorist group in colombian), my god! I was right I said:" Uribe overs the FARC and he'll begin with the ELN, with the order "capture all the leaders".

Paola wrote:you couldn't know the true about patascoy, 'cause the information about there the almost will be supporting the FARC, TERRORIST group ( I don't know a bad word so big to offense them). I met a person who could saw that pic's and the video, and he says:" See that video and that pic's is see the evil in flesh 'cause is SO horrible".
Something to say, Patascoy was the first place destruyed by the FARC. However, I can stay all the day telling you all these things. I guess if the Danish still stay here, he changed his mind , I guess.
If you put in google (images) patascoy If I'm right the first pic is a dead soldier and in the second page you see a cadaver so bad, you can't know if it was a human being. He was the soldier Mauricio Hidalgo and he died in that battle.
A last thing, one of the three americans rescued said:" Well, we free now but what could be happen with the other hostages?, maybe the FARC torture them more".
The thing most important about Ingrid is that she began to spaek to all europe and show the true face of the FARC.

BTW: Uribe began to see the ELN (another terrorist group in colombian), my god! I was right I said:" Uribe overs the FARC and he'll begin with the ELN, with the order "capture all the leaders".

Just a question, are you with or against Uribe?

After he killed those 20 guys in ecuador I really dislike him... (Who could like a person who killed another human being?) Also, the FARCs have a good cause, but they fucked it up with the crimes they comitted...

You always succeed in a war when you avoid it...

With Uribe, 'cause he is changing the country to the next generations so; another thing I know uribe isn't an angel or something like that but like I said he is making things that another presidents didn't it. A last thing about the question is that we don't know if the things about uribe are right finally he is kicking the FARC asses, so they can say lies to be the good grou in the world, after that they only say lies.

I don't think a president should be allowed to lie, after all, it's the person in which all the people should be able to trust... however that's just my point of view...

my guy, you're right but you've to understand that the people are tired of a war with 50 years old so, they don't care.

I guess I can't say anything about a 50 year old war, but we had a "Quick" 12 years long war here in El Salvador aswell, when the peace came, everyone realized nothing had really changed, there's still corrumption, shameless lies, and some people actually beleive in that Crap!...

War had a reason in El Salvador and altough many people died, the guerillas wanted to die before letting the country in the hands of some rich bastards (Which killed thousands of people before the war by the way)

I can say that every war has a sense and a meaning, I can't really tell the FARC's motivations, but they certainly need to have one, we just need to know if it's reasonable

(My point of view)

like a teacher said to me:" If you don't like the situation in this country, well you've to change it 'cause you're in the "new generation""

Of course, we've got the power...

(No need to repeat that's just my point of view)

Well, about the reasons of the Farc: From almost the beginning of the country, there were 2 political parties: the "liberal", who wanted tho make a difference and to change things, through new political ideas; and the "conservador", allied with the catholic church and who tried to keep the status quo. The common people on those days didn't even knew how to weite and read, but they had pretty clear which political party they follow. Society was divided on those parties, along with the difference between rich and poor.
A long time ago there was a politician named Jorge eliecer Gaitán, who came from the lower social population and quickly turn into a well known and beloved leader to the poor people, who saw him as a portrait of themselves, with the chance to change things for better (he said that there was no difference between a poor liberal and a poor conservador). He joined to the "Liberal" party.
At the same time, he turn into a menace for the conservador government and the rich people, 'cause he was loved by the poor and he had the will to make things better. He was murdered in april 9th, 1948; and the people started a riot known as the "Bogotazo", 'cause they destroyed almost all the city (that was little on those days). Other people in other towns did so (my grandpa was in jail because he was conservador, even when he didn't even know what did happened on Bogotá), and started to attack the people who followed the conservador party. This last ones decided to protect themselves and quickly it turned out to a civil war, a very merciless one. Women and even children were murdered on a cruel way, and the liberal peasants, who were with the conservador peasants and the police the only ones involved on this (the people in big cities didn't had to fight) decided to start a guerrilla force to defeat the conservador government and make justice by themselves. That's the basic origin of the colombian war.
Manuel Marulanda Velez, aka "Tirofijo", was a liberal peasant who escaped from a conservador attack and decided to take the guns and call anyone to join him in his crusade. so he founded the Farc guerrilla, and received help from educated people who wanted to start a communist government here, inspired on the Soviet Union.
Time went on and on, and things changed, people started to get better education and left the extremist politics behind. But the guerrilla and the communist ideas kept on, so the Farc didn't stop their movements. also, appeared a new business: drug dealing. So, they quickly started to take hands on the drug production, especially with the fall of communism and the death of Jacobo Arenas, the ideologist of the Farc and the man who kept a north for the Farc.
So they finally lost their first goal of protecting the people and changed it to a new one: to make money. So, instead protecting the humble, they started to attack'em, by stealing, kidnaping and "recruiting" children. They become murderers and started to commit all the barbaric acts I've mentioned before.

This is a "brief" explanation of the origins of the Farc, and it's a way to remember ev'rybody that there are more in this civil war than what is shown on the news channels.

About the Farc problem: yes, we all know there are corruption and other problems that the Farc, but this is a beginning. Maybe this way we can start thinking on solving the following ones, with a new free time

Edit: is it me or I'm the history channel on this thread???

sounds pretty much like El Salvador's civil war history (Except for the drug dealing)

BTW is it confirmed that the FARCs deal drugs?? I mean why such an organization would be willing to forget their ideals so easily?
just asking...

easy answer about ideals from organizations: they.

My god! they have money in deal drugs.

Here we've a phrase about the FARC's ideals:"their ideals died like 25 years ago"