Spirituality

Talk about everything else besides Stratovarius here in English. Please try to put more serious topics here, and silly topics in the Spam section.
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miditek
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Spirituality

Post by miditek » Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:17 am

Okay, as discussed in the previous "Where is Tolkk?" thread in the "Stratovarius and related bands" section, let's take a closer look at the topic of "Spirituality". There was some interesting commentary in that thread, so perhaps at least some of it will carry over to this one.
browneyedgirl wrote:Well, in church I was taught the concept of Alpha&Omega meant the completeness of God, that God is everything, the Great I AM.

miditek is much more articulate regarding things of this matter, so maybe he can give his point of view here. :)

However, I don't want to turn this into a religion topic, just wanted to discuss for a bit, the conception of the terms, Alpha & Omega.


The concept of Alpha & Omega helps to illustrate the omnipotence and omnipresence of God. He was never born, and thus, He will never die. Even though it is a concept that none of us can truly grasp, it is simple enough to at least accept God's word at face value.

I have no idea if Tolkki was mocking God when he wrote the lyrics to that particular track, but I do find it to be fascinating that someone who claims that there is no God certainly does spend a lot of time talking about Him.

To elaborate, the most popular blog on Myspace.com "The End of Christianity" is, of course, written by an atheist. Why does this guy spend so much time writing about a God that he does not believe in? Well, the answer is probably not very simple, but it seems to me that he is a very lonely guy, and just loves all of the attention that he gets from all of his synchophants and parrots. (Sound familiar?) ;)

If God does not exist, then why do people like this obsess over Him? There are plenty of other things for an atheist to do- he could ride a bike, read a book, go see a movie, and do lots of other activities that ostensibly should be far more fascinating than fretting over Something that they consider to be a "myth'.

And Tolkki is certainly no exception. I really don't believe for one second that he is an atheist; in fact, I actually think that he seems to alternatively at times to be angry with God for either existing or for not existing! If this guy really has the world by the tail with a good career, money in the bank, a nice home, wife and kids, adoring fans- "the whole nine yards", as we say in America, then why is he so unhappy? Why does he feel the need to act out with outrageous stunts in the press, and then turn his own forums into a ghost town? (Remember tolkki.com? There are, as of yet, undiscovered parts of the Peruvian jungle that get more traffic than that site does at this point in time!) He preaches peace, love, and tolerance, but I have yet to seem him practice what he preaches! But don't take my word for it, just ask his friends in Stratovarius!

Why, do we ask? The why is that God has indeed reached out to Tolkki at many points in his life, and Tolkki rejects God. God WANTS to comfort him, and to show him that he is loved for who he IS rather than for being some ridiculous prefabricated image that no one is really buying into to begin with. Does raving, ranting militant atheism and happiness ever go hand in hand? The more that Tolkki fights God and pushes Him away, then the more unhappy, unsatisfied, and miserable he will become. I've been there myself, and I can speak about this from personal experience.

For the sake of argument and comparison, let's take a look at someone else for a moment- an unknown, but someone that should have 'the world by the tail', as it were, but in the end, is utterly and completely miserable. While dodging beer bottles and pizza boxes that were being hurled at me one evening, not long ago, I endured the following tearful rant from my ex- "Who wouldn't want to live in a five hundred thousand dollar house that overlooks the city? Who wouldn't want to drive a seventy thousand dollar BMW? Who would PAY to be with YOU? What girl wouldn't want hundreds of thousands of dollars of Prada and Escada hanging in her closet? I can have ANY many that I want! Older gentlemen LOVE me! They give me thousands of dollars in cash and hundreds of dollars of cocaine at a time! I take care of my kids! I'm not a whore! I have a better life than anyone else! I'm not a drug addict! I'm not an alcoholic! I loved you when I was a little girl! I though that you had a good heart! Blah, Blah, Blah"

Now of course, I could be wrong, but does anyone here think that sounds like a happy person? A spiritual person? No. In the end, it's just another lost soul that thinks MORE of this or MORE of that will somehow lead to happiness! Guess what? It just hasn't happened yet, and it's very likely that it never will. Mutual exploitation is a very nasty, transactional type of game, and it is one that I simply will not play- and I really don't give a damn if I have known that person since I was a teenager! Privately, @beg (as well as other friends) have given me some sound advice- in a word- FLEE! ;)


C.S. Lewis once wrote that happiness apart from God is simply not possible. That was my most recent battle. "If only she would get off of the coke. If only she would stop drinking. If only she weren't fanatically materialistic. If only I could rescue her from her demons! THEN I could be HAPPY too!" (If only!)

I for one think he is absolutely correct. We can busy ourselves with all of the temptations and distractions that the world has to offer, but in the end, it only leads to dissatisfaction, emptiness, and bitterness. True happiness comes from an intimate relationship with the One that truly loves you more than anyone else ever possibly could. Realizing this, and most importantly, LIVING it, is what I would call TRUE spirituality. Everything else is merely propaganda and jargon. God jerked me out of a very bad situation, and almost overnight, once I made up my mind to OBEY Him and to LIVE for Him, I immediately began to see some unbelievably dramatic changes in my own life. Had I not listened to Him, then it would not have been a very happy ending for me. Just a lifetime of a Christian wallowing about in self-pity wondering why (what might have been)- IF ONLY.

One night, I cried out loudly to God that he was being unfair to me, and that if He really did love me, then why was I suffering so much in a relationship with someone that I had known, as I said, since I was a teenager. While reading the Bible for comfort later on- He answered, and what He said was astonishing: (This passage would probably make little sense without the introductory story- so thanks for your patience!)


The Way of Folly
(Proverbs 9:13-18, NKJV)

(13) A foolish woman is clamorous;
She is simple, and knows nothing.

(14) For she sits at the door of her house,
On a seat by the highest places of the city,

(15) To call to those who pass by,
Who go straight on their way:

(16) “ Whoever is simple, let him turn in here”;
And as for him who lacks understanding, she says to
him.

(17) “Stolen water is sweet, and bread eaten in secret
is pleasant.”

(18.) But he does not know that the dead are there,
That her guests are in the depths of Hell


You see, we all have our demons, but God is our Champion, and He will help anyone here that is open to Him. It might not be overnight, it might not be next week, or even next year, but if you truly seek Him, then when you do find Him, it will be absolutely, positively, unmistakable. :) It is my earnest hope and honest prayer that each and every one of you that does not know God (even Tolkki!) eventually will....
Κύριε ἐλέησον

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AGAG
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Re: Spirituality

Post by AGAG » Tue Aug 05, 2008 9:38 am

:)

Many people have tried to live without God or spirituality, and as you said, they failed to success, and God doesn't have to be that abstract concept of "The omnipotent creator" for some people because many of them that claim to be Christians or to belong to any other religion can be easily surpassed morally by some "Atheists".

"Atheism" is not the Denial of God's existence as it's concept might say, it's just accepting his existence and getting away from him; for example, some atheists may say "I don't Believe in God" and by saying you don't believe in something you're actually accepting it's existance and you just choose "not to believe" in that, however many people that claim to be Atheists are actually more spiritual than some Christians that I've seen, which ask for salvation just because they go to Church every sunday, some of these atheist don't "believe" in God but they rather "live" with his teachings we can see some examples in this regular case which is Strato's disbandment, we can easily distinguish between both types of "Atheism".

But in some ways it's good that many atheists exist, we can see some examples in Nietzche's books, if you've heard of him. In one of his books, called "The Antichrist" he gives us some really interesting thoughts and some truths of Christians religions and practices, which fail to live up for the regular spiritual Christian but are nice to think about.

All in all, I think the so-called atheism it's just, as you said, some kind of hate against God for it's existance, hence we must let them say whatever they want and keep our true values to ourselves.

Nice post by the way :D .
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Re: Spirituality

Post by icecab21 » Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:24 am

Here’s part of my view

When someone uses god or humanistic excuses to impose their control over others lives in a nonconsensual way, it’s an issue of importance. The most dangerous this is when someone thinks it does not matter if they kill you or if god is telling them to kill you. In both cases this is blasphemy and an idea that needs to be prevented. Any collectivist ideology that would say that one life is nothing and disposable is something that energy should be used to prevent.

The fundamentalism and extremism that comes from religion is the problem. The people that say they are doing gods work when they kill each other and dictate each others lives and make slaves and masters out of each other.

From one philosophy: what is moral gives life and health and is done on a value system, what is immoral brings destruction and illness and is done either calculated or at whim. It is Moral to try find ways to create happiness in all people and ways that give life instead of take life.



When I read the bible I get a message of love and community that is about finding love in each other and this world. Helping each other in times of need, in times where addiction and disharmony take over. Helping each other find ways to make those small accomplishments that make the big difference in the world. I get a message of love from god, not a message that humans and their interpretations are supposed to be able to control my life or my relationship with god. From what I read in the bible heaven is being with god and having a relationship with love as god is love, without god there is personal hell and no love.


Is this god or just a built up image of an imaginary figure to use to help others follow their hearts and dreams and find beauty in mankind?

Tolkki has it hard, with bipolarism, that’s been part of his lyrics for his musical career as well. A few cds could be filled with those darker songs. I think part of the disease clouds his judgment sometimes. Another part is when he creates these lyrics of love and then all these people send him hate and are so disrespectful to him and his creations. It seems people like to poke others with sticks and then laugh and call them hypocrites when they crack. We are a all humans , not gods , not robots , we all have setting where we do great and can live our message and we all have settings were we have troubles and lose sight of what us good for us.

A lack of love and understanding can create monsters of us all

On one side we have all the beauty and life created by religion and that’s the side of love and needs to be encouraged and nourished
On the other side we have all the hate and death created by human’s views of religion and that’s the side that is a poison to mankind and needs to be prevented.

I think what is the problem with so many of these philosophies is that for them to work everybody has to participate and follow the rules of moral give life give love and as soon as one person wants to take control over lives and be the master or feels this need for gain over others the system falls apart. It seems on macro levels of thinking mankind is doomed to fail but on micro and individual levels we can love and succeed and only when micro levels get nourished can we see a change in macro


I do have one question about this part

“He preaches peace, love, and tolerance, but I have yet to seem him practice what he preaches! But don't take my word for it, just ask his friends in Stratovarius!”


I think the guys from straotvarius will say he has good moments and bad moments with them. You have never seen a act of love and kindness from him? Really? All you have read from him or seen him do has been violent, destructive and intolerable? He preaches to walk to your own song and to do things your own way. I think he has sure practiced that one. He preaches that if humans receive ill will towards them they not act so well and I have seen that too. He does not preach to tolerate what you think is wrong and he practices that (with some major shortsighted delusions and chemical imbalances sometimes).

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Re: Spirituality

Post by AGAG » Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:42 am

icecab21 wrote:On one side we have all the beauty and life created by religion and that’s the side of love and needs to be encouraged and nourished
On the other side we have all the hate and death created by human’s views of religion and that’s the side that is a poison to mankind and needs to be prevented.
So basically what you're saying, and what the strongest statement of an atheist would be, is that humanity is what corrupts mankind and it's philosophies, religions, politics, etc.?

Then I must say that I totally agree with you, and as you said:
icecab21 wrote: It seems on macro levels of thinking mankind is doomed to fail but on micro and individual levels we can love and succeed and only when micro levels get nourished can we see a change in macro
so if mankind, humanity or human beings get on macro stuff they will fail, we can see that on politics, economic systems and many other examples that I'm not willing to write. That may be the reason why religions had been corrumpted so much, because they are in the hands of humans, and Who can blame them? they're just humans... but we, as humans, must realize and accept our condition, then accept God and it's reality, getting one step beyond mankind and humanity because it's this humanity that corrupts our souls, but what can we do? we all live in Earth and we must accept it's mistakes...
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Re: Spirituality

Post by CottonCandy » Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:19 pm

There is religion, and there is spirituality. There is a great difference.
Religion IMO is the belief system and the rituals in that system, or particular church. Spirituality is how a person feels inside, their beliefs, how they share these feelings with others, the love they feel for God&their fellow man.
A person can be religious, and yet not be spiritual. And, vice versa.
The greatest experience, of course, is when the two are incorporated together to the fullest&in the right way.

People who use religion to control others are sorry, IMO. People who start these Cults out of their own narcissism, and self-centeredness just to get worshipped&in turn, have control over a body of people.
But, all religions have the potential to become overbearing, and that is where good, understanding church leaders come in. Leaders who don't let their position go to their head, and who can use their authority to spread love, charity and good, pure relations between the people.

There are these religions which use fear to keep their people in line&people are scared to leave, not only because they fear losing their salvation, but being harmed or even killed, as well. Of course, there are martyrs who die for their faith, extremists of many different religions, one is Islam as witnessed by the suicide bombers, but even Christian-based religions have done dangerous acts in the name of God.

Atheists often use 2 historical events to excuse their beliefs: the Medieval crusades which was a very violent period in history and wars were waged for spreading God's will, and the Inquisition, where Church Leaders tortured&killed hundreds of thousands of people they felt were not true to the Catholic faith, or who they felt were threats.
After reading about these periods, I can understand why people might have distaste for religion&its seemingly materialistic trappings. But, those events took place centuries ago, and we today should not let the mistakes of yesterday keep us from spreading God's good will and love throughout the world.
http://www.sarini.net/archives/000271.html

I chose CottonCandy as my nick 'cause I'm sweet, soft, and pink!

Being "in the know" is not necessarily a good thing. ;)

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Re: Spirituality

Post by Mormegil » Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:10 pm

I sense an Internet Bible Fight in 10... 9... 8...
miditek wrote:If God does not exist, then why do people like this obsess over Him? There are plenty of other things for an atheist to do- he could ride a bike, read a book, go see a movie, and do lots of other activities that ostensibly should be far more fascinating than fretting over Something that they consider to be a "myth'.
Because you care about things happening around you.
I'm NOT saying that's the same as saying "Why do people care about starving children in a 3rd world country? There are plenty of... etc." but to me it seems to have the same logic.
miditek wrote:C.S. Lewis once wrote that happiness apart from God is simply not possible.
Frankly, the biggest reason I (and many others) oppose all religions is because they make people think this is the truth.

Religious people in every culture believe in a different kind of superior being. Atheists everywhere in the world believe in the same cause.

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Re: Spirituality

Post by icecab21 » Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:29 pm

It’s all about a value system of moral code and that is all something just based on what individuals feel or what societies teach. I think tolkki thinks that religion is man made. There are a lot of books about religion trying to defend effects as others that try to prove that religion is a deliberate mankind creation and the bible is filled with intentional stories edited throughout the years and many logical holes. I also read that tolkki does not think that a strict dogma should be used and that with strict rules and establishment it causes to miss the potential beauty and love that can be created if done another way.




http://www.artsreformation.com/a001/ih-music-rules.html

"Hence, backward (what would be better called non-Christian) civilizations are encouraged to change, to become Christian in their outlook and actions."


i think its stuff like this that people get upset about. for some non-cristian equals backward and they feel it's their dudy to remove them from their culture. its one thing if done through love and connection, another if done through force and destruction.

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Re: Spirituality

Post by boswoth » Wed Aug 06, 2008 1:26 am

miditek wrote:If God does not exist, then why do people like this obsess over Him? There are plenty of other things for an atheist to do- he could ride a bike, read a book, go see a movie, and do lots of other activities that ostensibly should be far more fascinating than fretting over Something that they consider to be a "myth'.
Now this is the best darn question i have seen in a while :D Atheism, even it's not a religion, certainly is defended religiously by some people.

In the case of tolkki my take is this, because he feels so scared, he has convinced himself that he is sooooo important himself. Because of that, having people believeing in a being thats more important than him, is like a slap in the face.

It's why he always is writing things about the authorititarian religion. He is scared of authority, and God would be the supreme authority and judge. (It is pretty scary if you think about it!!!)

Hopefully one day he will not be so scared, and just let things be. And if he is lucky, the moment he lets his guard down, maybe then he will find a better relationship with his maker.

You just know that if Tolkki ever found God, he would turn into a very powerful messenger indeed. He is not stupid, he is passionate and he has a gift of genius. He is just scared and at the moment God is too powerful for him to even dare to open his eyes to see him. He probably doesnt grasp that with infinite power comes infinite forgiveness. For him it would be like staring into the sun. But it could be it's what he needs to do. If your eye offends you..............

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Re: Spirituality

Post by icecab21 » Wed Aug 06, 2008 1:47 am

Its faith there is a god, its faith that there is no god. Maybe god is something real that tollki is missing; maybe god is just an imaginary friend that people use for good and evil. People love to things in the name of something that takes responsibility away from them. Sometimes people have major chemical problems in their system like addiction and mental disorders and they need support groups to help them see better ways and help them stay on a better path. With the help of an idea that can help us evolve into better people more content with our lives and with a purpose and satisfaction.

Yes tolkki thinks he’s so big he even let himself get really unhealthy to literally be bigger. He had a huge breakdown and almost killed himself can he get a little compassion? He has bipolar mood swings and does some crazy shit and gets neurotic. As humans I think it’s moral to try and find ways to prevent breakdowns like this instead of insulting and trying to hurt each other. He needs support not this “you’re a whining lying asshole and everything you do is wrong and narcissistic and you’re horrible person stuff” ( a sum of things said about him in this forom and outside in reveiws and other message boards and the such)

it seems people would rather lock each other up or destroy on another than help each other live better lives and release potential creativity and goodness

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Re: Spirituality

Post by AGAG » Wed Aug 06, 2008 5:36 am

Mormegil wrote:I sense an Internet Bible Fight in 10... 9... 8...
miditek wrote:If God does not exist, then why do people like this obsess over Him? There are plenty of other things for an atheist to do- he could ride a bike, read a book, go see a movie, and do lots of other activities that ostensibly should be far more fascinating than fretting over Something that they consider to be a "myth'.
Because you care about things happening around you.
I'm NOT saying that's the same as saying "Why do people care about starving children in a 3rd world country? There are plenty of... etc." but to me it seems to have the same logic.
miditek wrote:C.S. Lewis once wrote that happiness apart from God is simply not possible.
Frankly, the biggest reason I (and many others) oppose all religions is because they make people think this is the truth.

Religious people in every culture believe in a different kind of superior being. Atheists everywhere in the world believe in the same cause.
5... 4... 3... 2...

I could easily say aswell:

Frankly, the biggest reason I (and many others) oppose to atheists is because they make people think their truth is the real truth.
Atheist people in every culture believe in a different kind of superior being. Religious people everywhere in the world believe in the same cause...

Our so-called spirituality may just be a way for us to feel superior than other people, and at the end, what difference does it make? if It works for ourselves then screw everyone else! I'm happy with my beliefs and if you're happy with yours then what's the damn problem?

Just be sure not to feel superior than other religions or cultures and even if you do and you can't help it, at least keep it to yourself, that way everyone is happy.
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Re: Spirituality

Post by hiro23 » Wed Aug 06, 2008 5:39 am

Sometimes it depends on how you view religion and spirituality.

You see some people might get offended by certain lyrics in metal music that looks as if it's attacking god and religion, however if you come from a backround like mine where you are very spiritual but think religion tends to breed fanatics you think of those lyrics in a different light.

You see when I hear some of those songs from tolkki I don't really think he's bashing god, it's more like he's questioning certian things that people believe to be true, questions aren't necessarly bad things, in the case of earlier tolkki material he speaks of spirtualism a lot.

And really would a man who didn't believe in god talk about him so frequently? I really don't think so.
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Re: Spirituality

Post by Mormegil » Wed Aug 06, 2008 2:36 pm

AGAG wrote:Atheist people in every culture believe in a different kind of superior being. Religious people everywhere in the world believe in the same cause...
Does that really make any sense?


Surprisingly nearly all the religious people here are americans. :wink:

I'm not denying the possibilty of a superior being, but I'm quite sure it/he/she has nothing to do with any of the gods the man has invented.

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Re: Spirituality

Post by COUGAR » Wed Aug 06, 2008 2:53 pm

Alot of the "New Age" type religions, and belief systems that claim to spread universal love, kindness and tolerance are very often actually the most intolerant "religions". New Age type religions very often, as a matter of their course, criticize Christianity, deny God as an authority figure, and blaspheme Jesus Christ and claim he was "only a good man, but just misunderstood". Also, many people who follow New Age spirituality often ridicule and criticize Christians for their beliefs. This kind of ridicule is not tolerant at all.
The road to Hell is paved with good intentions, and "if onlys".

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Re: Spirituality

Post by browneyedgirl » Wed Aug 06, 2008 4:33 pm

boswoth wrote:
miditek wrote:If God does not exist, then why do people like this obsess over Him? There are plenty of other things for an atheist to do- he could ride a bike, read a book, go see a movie, and do lots of other activities that ostensibly should be far more fascinating than fretting over Something that they consider to be a "myth'.
Now this is the best darn question i have seen in a while :D Atheism, even it's not a religion, certainly is defended religiously by some people.

In the case of tolkki my take is this, because he feels so scared, he has convinced himself that he is sooooo important himself. Because of that, having people believeing in a being thats more important than him, is like a slap in the face.

It's why he always is writing things about the authorititarian religion. He is scared of authority, and God would be the supreme authority and judge. (It is pretty scary if you think about it!!!)

Hopefully one day he will not be so scared, and just let things be. And if he is lucky, the moment he lets his guard down, maybe then he will find a better relationship with his maker.

You just know that if Tolkki ever found God, he would turn into a very powerful messenger indeed. He is not stupid, he is passionate and he has a gift of genius. He is just scared and at the moment God is too powerful for him to even dare to open his eyes to see him. He probably doesnt grasp that with infinite power comes infinite forgiveness. For him it would be like staring into the sun. But it could be it's what he needs to do. If your eye offends you..............
+10
A very good, and considering everything, a very brave post.
@boswoth, like miditek you have guts! :bigok:
I think Tolkki has his own ideas of what God is, and he is going to hold on to them because he thinks he is right. But, he is free to believe what he wants because God did give mankind free will: to believe in God, disbelieve in God, even freedom to hate Him, and spit upon the Bible&idea of God if a person chooses. If God were a monster He would've made it possible to strike people dead if they blasphemed, cursed, laughed at, or disbelieved Him.

@icecab21, Timo Tolkki is not the only person in the world with bipolar disorder, he is not the first, nor will he be the last. These people need empathy&support, but not people enabling, or excusing their behavior.
Oh, nevermind......:roll:
"Your life is yours, and yours alone. Rise up and live it!"

Bob: I don't believe in God.
Archangel Michael: That's OK, Bob, because He doesn't believe in you, either!~Legion~

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Re: Spirituality

Post by icecab21 » Wed Aug 06, 2008 5:26 pm

I’m not excusing it. I’m saying people could treat him better. There are ways to help him and they don't include a lot of the ways people can talk about him. People need social help and support for their good and to be worked with to help overcome and prevent the bad. People need to communicate with each other, not scream at each other. The rest of the band aren’t innocent lambs either.

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Re: Spirituality

Post by Stratowarius » Wed Aug 06, 2008 8:14 pm

Icelorry :x You are impossible. What do you know about the others lambstatus??? Nothing. But you think you have all the answers. To everything! But mostly to every person in a band called Stratovarius. And you could be Mr Tolkkis therapeut since you know
everything about him, his illness, his mucic, his friends, his religion, his affairs, his decisions. What is absurd is that he don't answer you on RR-forum and his earlier posts to you is not especially kind. Why don't you give your teenageenergy to something else?? There are girls you know. And beer. And sport. And cold showers :wink:

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Re: Spirituality

Post by icecab21 » Wed Aug 06, 2008 9:34 pm

I think I have my answers
I’m not spending energy here in a way that gives me stress
I have a strange sense of humor and what I find entertaining
I like ironic posts
The forum and tolkki is a miniature use of my energy and focus
I like to have little fun here in-between activities and amuse myself
I don't think I know tolkkis life, nor am I seriously trying to speak for him and him alone
Tolkki is a case study and I think more in general.
I’m just going from what I have read from in posts and interviews from each of these band members.
The ex band members did pull a tolkki with their statement and they both try to speak for another’s intentions and life’s
There are things I take from what he has and things I leave.
Since this is the spirituality section, why is the Christian god the creature as suppose to other options and belief systems?
Some intolerance will come when one person try’s to enforce their beliefs by force instead giving options of a different way by invitation.
I think people attack certain parts of certain human interpretations of religion
Religion seems to be a multithreaded dragon with some greatly useful parts and other parts that take away the rights to life and culture.
In the bible it tells leaders to be servants and not masters
I don’t think people should tolerate the extreme side of religion either
Debates with reason can work on why to believe one way or another.
There’s whole sections of life focused on bringing logical reasons of what to believe in and why the gospel should or should not be “taken as the gospel”

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Re: Spirituality

Post by Stratowarius » Wed Aug 06, 2008 10:15 pm

:zzz: I give up on you. I almost fell asleep over your looooong dramatic explanationes. I don't always understand what you say or mean, and first I thougt my english wasnt good enough, but now I can see that you sometimes are i bit confused and contradict yourself. You think maybe that is funny but after a couple of weeks it get's tiresome. Sorry baby it will be even more fun if you take it easy and make yourself understandabel 8)

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icecab21
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Re: Spirituality

Post by icecab21 » Wed Aug 06, 2008 10:37 pm

Those were short points :lol: . im not :? myself I just write fast and don't think :idea: over or read what I write until later. :shock:

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Re: Spirituality

Post by Stratowarius » Wed Aug 06, 2008 10:43 pm

:)Please wouldnt you consider a little thougt sometimes about what you say here. For us readers sake. We are maybe not so clever that we always can read between the lines and into your cloudy brain :(

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Re: Spirituality

Post by icecab21 » Wed Aug 06, 2008 11:48 pm

If even my bullet points confuse you then there’s not too much hope in working on that now is there?
List the problem areas of where you can’t read between the lines
If it’s the going over the top stuff that’s meant to be ironic
If it’s the observational stuff more on a grounded level of what I have seen evidence for that is my opinion or the way I define things
Since I have strange definitions I can explain those better.
ill put some more reasonable stuff here and not act with all the reactionary ways that i have been having amusement with

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Re: Spirituality

Post by browneyedgirl » Thu Aug 07, 2008 6:48 am

icecab21 wrote:Those were short points :lol: . im not :? myself I just write fast and don't think :idea: over or read what I write until later. :shock:
I am not trying to be impolite, but thats what I meant when I said you post kinda different in RR Forum. In RR Forum, you are articulate, knowledgeable, and write very well, educated posts. I know this is not English class, :oops: but the difference in your writing style between here&there is very noticeable, and I know its not my imagination! :D
Its not a big deal, but something that crossed my mind. :oops:
Anyway, lets try to move on&get back on topic.

I was thinking about looking up various religions, posting their unique dogmas and what they preach. Maybe I can do that tomorrow.
"Your life is yours, and yours alone. Rise up and live it!"

Bob: I don't believe in God.
Archangel Michael: That's OK, Bob, because He doesn't believe in you, either!~Legion~

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Re: Spirituality

Post by icecab21 » Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:16 am

I was looking over from quotes from people. Here’s some from one person.

"Instead of uniting the whole mankind, we have divided ourselves into units that we defend with weapons."

“I think there is no dogma or right way dealing with Universe. Everybody has their
Own path"

"Nothing will be gained with vengeancing violence with more acts of
violence"

"What I really dislike is "us" vs. "them"."

" to bring together as many different kinds of people with different professions, beliefs and backgrounds as possible. And hopefully we all
can make us all understand that we can coexist peacefully regardless of those things."

"I make mistakes, I am confused (most of the time). What I write about is nothing new. It has existed a long time. I add my own personality and flavour of course."

“I believe in the existence of evil forces in the Universe per se. And that they
affect us in our daily life in the same way that I believe higher forces are affecting our daily lifes. We can always choose, although it is not easy.”

Now for a fun little thing (to me for me)

We can invite each other to ideas and lifestyles, but I think force is immoral. Within each religion there are those that work to connect and offer a different option, and those that would force their ideas on others thinking either they know best or that their god told them to and that if they don’t follow that they will be punished. There is a lot of beauty out there to discover and ideas from different cultures that can add greatly to life. We can help each other create positive environments that add to our lives or we can create tensions and miscommunications that deprive us of energy and health. I think we are better of thinking win win then zero sum game. If each side is told the other side loves them and wishes to be their friend then that will help everyone out rather than each side being told the other side hates them and wants to destroy their values. There are so many examples of this from children on up. in school when my class when over the civil rights movements we went over these stories of children being the best of friends and loving each other until their parents ripped them away from each other and told them that they had to feel a certain way about the other person, a system that tuned open doors, friendship and love into hate and closed doors. This same thing can happen all through levels of from children to adults that have authority figures that they listen to that tell them propaganda to close doors and create hate. Seeing this system can make people really sad and cynical but it will be better if the energy from that is channeled into trying to help each other open doors.

Let’s take one way things can get sold. Some gets sold with a marketing goal calculated to sell to primal wants instead of human needs. I’ll use diamonds as my example. Given the choice between a loving relationship and a diamond the loving relationship is what people need. Companies use this in their marketing to attach buying jewelry as a symbol of love. Apply the method to anything of attaching material items to a deep value and that the items will give the ability to grant wishes. Companies use this approach for good and bad as there are plenty that will create whole support groups through love and consent and sharing stories and inspirations and helping each other out and get through tough time and live happy and (have to put some run on sentences since I’m already putting elementary examples here). Things can be sold toward logical levels or emotional levels and unfortunately emotional levels can win out. There can be a “statistically, these are logical steps to take that have successfully helped create health and positive energy”, or there can be “buy the secrets that will make your dreams a reality and create the you that you have always dreamed of.”. its all in the difference between “this can” and “this will” and “ I invite you to consider) and “I demand you or else”. It’s also a matter of living in the “if only or when I” or “this is something that I would like to be part of my life that I find purpose and accomplishment in this action “

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Re: Spirituality

Post by AGAG » Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:30 am

Mormegil wrote:
AGAG wrote:Atheist people in every culture believe in a different kind of superior being. Religious people everywhere in the world believe in the same cause...
Does that really make any sense?


Surprisingly nearly all the religious people here are americans. :wink:

I'm not denying the possibilty of a superior being, but I'm quite sure it/he/she has nothing to do with any of the gods the man has invented.
Not really, I was really sleepy :oops:

Anyways, what I tried to say was that atheist people believe to be superior to religious people, because they left that system, they have gone one step further, etc, etc. So does religious people, because they believe in a God, they will be saved, heaven, eternal damnation fo the sinners, etc, etc. So, no discussion will never lead to an agreement, thus we must be happy with ourselves without putting other people below us because our/their beliefs...

I think that made sense right? :D

Concerning Tolkki I can say that for all the pain he has suffered troughout his life he justifies all that hatred against a religious God, and for him to have an enemy or a friend helps him to write and compose. I agree with icecab when he said that we all could treat him better, I'm not saying that all should kiss his ass with everything he says and every decision he takes but not to take miss K-like actions, let's just wait for everything to clear up.

@ icecab too: the diamond thing was a great example.

Saying that freedom, joy and goodness couldn't exist without religion is like saying that love couldn't exist without diamonds.
Yet, people express love to each other with jewerly and let's not forget they marry with rings.
---...---

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Re: Spirituality

Post by browneyedgirl » Thu Aug 07, 2008 4:41 pm

COUGAR wrote:Alot of the "New Age" type religions, and belief systems that claim to spread universal love, kindness and tolerance are very often actually the most intolerant "religions". New Age type religions very often, as a matter of their course, criticize Christianity, deny God as an authority figure, and blaspheme Jesus Christ and claim he was "only a good man, but just misunderstood". Also, many people who follow New Age spirituality often ridicule and criticize Christians for their beliefs. This kind of ridicule is not tolerant at all.
Well, over the years here we have had several topics about religion, and such. And, it seems that the New Agers&the Agnostists, etc. are much more argumentative, even to the point of becoming irrational&angry in comparison to the "oh-so-evil&arrogant" Christians who, for the most part, are pretty civilized even when they get ridiculed&argued with on these topics.
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Bob: I don't believe in God.
Archangel Michael: That's OK, Bob, because He doesn't believe in you, either!~Legion~

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Re: Spirituality

Post by sanichi » Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:30 pm

sorry I'm to sleepy now to read through all of this, so if I write something already mentioned, I'm apolocizing for that now :wink:

As far as I see, this topic is about religion and believe and about the socalled "atheists" who seperate from these things.

Let me give you my opinion to that.
Itoo am no very religious person myself ,also not a member of any form of chuch and, though raised catholic, seperated from that and dont believe in such a thing as god the way christians (and some other religions) comprehend it. So now call me atheist if you want.
Let me emphasize, that i dont feel any better or superior to those who believe in the just mentioned religion or any other, nor do I think it makes me in any way inferior.
I think it's the way we live of this earth which makes us the person we are, not what we believe in, and it's the acceptance of other religions and beliefswithout judging those who practise it which is very important (and also difficult for some of you as far as I noticed).

Spirituality cant be reduced to only the officially acknowledgedreligions, I think everybody should be able to have his own form of belief, and none of it is any better than the others.

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Re: Spirituality

Post by icecab21 » Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:45 pm

http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/index.html

This site is done with logical reasoning. I have not gone over a huge deal checking for fallacies. Religions have bob Larson’s and counter bob Larson’s. It’s all very multidimensional




lets look at things like bob larson's book of cults. in that book any religion that is not his view of the bible gets called a cult and he uses his view of the bible as what to measure all things by.




http://www.apologeticsindex.org/

"The Apologetics Index (apologeticsindex.org) 'family of web sites' provides 25,000+ pages of research resources on religious cults, sects, new religious movements, alternative religions, apologetics-, anticult-, and countercult organizations, doctrines, religious practices and world views. These resources reflect a variety of theological and/or sociological perspectives. [More Info"

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Re: Spirituality

Post by browneyedgirl » Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:22 pm

The mainstream religion Church of Christ is classed as a Cult by many people. So, there you go......
I guess "cult" is in the eye of the beholder, nore or less.

But, there are very dangerous groups out there that can be very bad news for their followers&eventually society, as well.
Heavens Gate&Branch Davidians, anyone? Order of Solar Temple, Peoples Temple? The Order? The list is endless. Actualy, the Branch Davidians were an innocent group til they got the wrong leader. ;)
"Your life is yours, and yours alone. Rise up and live it!"

Bob: I don't believe in God.
Archangel Michael: That's OK, Bob, because He doesn't believe in you, either!~Legion~

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Re: Spirituality

Post by hiro23 » Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:44 pm

I don't hate religion, it just doesn't work for me, I would rather worship god in my own way then to be told how to do it.

I mean if religion works for someone then I say go for it, I'm just saying for me I get frustrated because it seems if I don't meet certain standards in a church then I'm treated like an outcast.
metal feeds the beast

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Re: Spirituality

Post by icecab21 » Thu Aug 07, 2008 11:59 pm

It’s all in the means to an end and what value system is used to determine what the ends are and what means are acceptable methods. There are different views on what actions will arrive at an ends and what ends are valuable to obtain. What scares me in when people find value and peace of mind when they are controlling others or controlling others and getting in a worse and worse state of mind. It’s hard to see people proudly destroy art and culture of others with a glee in their eye or a scornful distaste in their mouth. I would much rather see the law of consensual interaction and logical open persuasion instead of zero sum game and denial of feelings. I feel anything is fine as long as it does not drag in unwilling victims or use techniques of manipulation that attaches poison that destroys life to values that give satisfaction or prevent dissatisfaction. I like the rule of the initiation of force is immoral that society geared towards community and preventing the initiation of force through available assistance and alternative sources to put energy into. So much of this is in what we teach each other is good and bad, acceptable and unacceptable and what ways things are dealt with and the actions that are taken. for me the words “how can I ” work better than “if only you” and I would hope the goals would be towards peaceful solutions that involve methods of peace leading to peace .

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