Spirituality

Talk about everything else besides Stratovarius here in English. Please try to put more serious topics here, and silly topics in the Spam section.
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AGAG
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Re: Spirituality

Post by AGAG » Fri Aug 08, 2008 3:30 am

browneyedgirl wrote:The mainstream religion Church of Christ is classed as a Cult by many people. So, there you go......
I guess "cult" is in the eye of the beholder, nore or less.

But, there are very dangerous groups out there that can be very bad news for their followers&eventually society, as well.
Heavens Gate&Branch Davidians, anyone? Order of Solar Temple, Peoples Temple? The Order? The list is endless. Actualy, the Branch Davidians were an innocent group til they got the wrong leader. ;)
That's a good example of how people can corrumpt a good ideology just for their own sake...
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Re: Spirituality

Post by browneyedgirl » Fri Aug 08, 2008 3:47 am

It's hard to see people proudly destroy art and culture of others with a glee in their eye or a scornful distaste in their mouth.
For example, the Taliban in Afghanistan. This group destroyed historical landmarks of all kinds centuries old, worth billions, just because these landmarks, shrines&temples "offended" them in some way. The Taliban has got to be one of the most evil religious organizations in existence. They will kill a person for the smallest offense with no trial, or some mock trial with no representation. Beheading, or a rifle shot to the head is their method of execution.
Before these bastards took control, Afghanistan was much freer. Women wore regular clothes&were allowed to drive and get educated. Men were allowed to grow long hair, and life was pretty normal.
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Re: Spirituality

Post by AGAG » Fri Aug 08, 2008 5:28 am

Have you seen the video where they kill a girl just because she was in love of an Iraki guy? that's sick... :cry:
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Re: Spirituality

Post by browneyedgirl » Fri Aug 08, 2008 2:52 pm

.........and, the Taliban has been known to imprison people who simply listened to Rock or Metal music. :( How cruel is that? Its inhumane.
Thats why its known as TaliBAN, I guess. They ban everything they think is "sinful" in their eyes.

But, people would still sneak and enjoy everyday normal stuff. Women would have make-up parties knowing if the Taliban discovered them, they would be beaten, or imprisoned.
I hope it has gotten better over there because stuff the Taliban did to those people was not only cruel&inhumane, but totally ridiculous.

Oh, another religious group which is pretty damn off-the-wall are these polygamy-based groups who marry off little girls&teenage girls to men old enough to be their Dad, or Grandfather. It ruins the girls life, but its the only life these kids know. Its not just these twisted marriages, but other overbearing behavior from the leaders exist, too. Of course, there is no complaint from the GUYS of these cults. :roll: They are simply doing what some guys in society do, but are excusing it by using religion.
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Re: Spirituality

Post by icecab21 » Fri Aug 08, 2008 7:37 pm

That’s part of why the more specific we wet the better. I guess things could be called acting on X and such and such teaches X. specifics are not my strong point but I will put this one out here. “If you blow yourself up and kill these people, it will show your love of god and you will be greatly rewarded in heaven, we will also provide resources for your loved ones.”. To me any do X for Y is evil if it involves the initiation of force. WW2 is also a great study for coercion and propaganda. Citizens of Japan are told that even in surrender the USA solders will kill them, while the USA soldiers are told that Japanese will fight to the death no matter what. There was also the Stalin and Hitler thing of “you fight them or we will kill you” and “for the cause of the community”. Since dark night has a visual of the situation, “ If one of you does not kill the other one, then I will kill you all”. A lot is a matter of” us vs them or we all get destroyed” vs a matter of “us and them or we all get destroyed” and then even if deciding on the later, having a ego of fighting about what “us and them” should be like

From the way I interpret the bible, the Pharisees are the example of nonspiritual religion. They lived for the love of rules and control instead of a relationship of love with god and fellow man.

One view of spirituality is that the values of love, freedom, inner peace, and nonviolence are the signs and goals of higher evolution of self. Certain parts of culture hold people back from obtaining this self evolution, and that those parts should be broken down through logic and peaceful communication and love.

One goal out there is a divide between public and private. This is why humanities gets talked about and all that has to do with society and collective and personal interaction. It all ties in together. sort of a "If X does Y privately and this causes Y do happen publicly, then X should not be allowed in public" and if "X does Y privately without consent then X should not be allowed in society"

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Re: Spirituality

Post by browneyedgirl » Sat Aug 09, 2008 4:43 am

One more group which is gaining popularity, especially among the rich&famous, is the Church of Scientology. Which actually does not seem like a Church at all, but a social club or secret society. Its kinda scarey. A person has to do lots of studying to advance themselves through the "levels" in the group. In other words, a person has to prove themselves worthy at each level to progress to the next higher plane/level, so to speak. I can imagine that this group fosters low self-esteem, to fail at these levels, not to be "chosen" as spiritual enough, etc.
There is a celebrity who belongs to this group&is a real fanatic, but he claims this group helped him succeed where he is today. But, he has made his wife&child cut off from the world--in a glorious mansion, but yet prisoners in their own home. They cannot go out unless this guy is with them. His wife looks as if she is suffering an eating disorder&very unhappy, and there are claims his beautiful baby girl drinks barley-based formula as required by Scientology. Milk is forbidden until a child is a certain age. He&his wife were at a banquet recently, and the guy had a bunch of young, Barbie-doll like Scientology girls waiting on him hand&foot serving him trays of expensive meat and dishes, and rich desserts. His wife on the other hand, ate 2 slices of toasted wheat bread&nothing, zilch, nothing else. Because it is said he demands that she stay rail-thin to be a good impression on him in public. And, that is what a "good" Scientology wife does, she is subservient to her husband. Its a religion that is more like a Cult in its studies, membership requirements, and actions. Its just one of many "New Age" type beliefs that are trendy these days.
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Re: Spirituality

Post by hiro23 » Sat Aug 09, 2008 5:10 am

browneyedgirl wrote:One more group which is gaining popularity, especially among the rich&famous, is the Church of Scientology. Which actually does not seem like a Church at all, but a social club or secret society. Its kinda scarey. A person has to do lots of studying to advance themselves through the "levels" in the group. In other words, a person has to prove themselves worthy at each level to progress to the next higher plane/level, so to speak. I can imagine that this group fosters low self-esteem, to fail at these levels, not to be "chosen" as spiritual enough, etc.
There is a celebrity who belongs to this group&is a real fanatic, but he claims this group helped him succeed where he is today. But, he has made his wife&child cut off from the world--in a glorious mansion, but yet prisoners in their own home. They cannot go out unless this guy is with them. His wife looks as if she is suffering an eating disorder&very unhappy, and there are claims his beautiful baby girl drinks barley-based formula as required by Scientology. Milk is forbidden until a child is a certain age. He&his wife were at a banquet recently, and the guy had a bunch of young, Barbie-doll like Scientology girls waiting on him hand&foot serving him trays of expensive meat and dishes, and rich desserts. His wife on the other hand, ate 2 slices of toasted wheat bread&nothing, zilch, nothing else. Because it is said he demands that she stay rail-thin to be a good impression on him in public. And, that is what a "good" Scientology wife does, she is subservient to her husband. Its a religion that is more like a Cult in its studies, membership requirements, and actions. Its just one of many "New Age" type beliefs that are trendy these days.

I agree that is really scary, certain religions I just don't get, I just mainly try to lead by example myself.
If someone likes my way of life I will show them what my set of values are, however if they don't I will kindly respect that and hope that they don't spew hate on me cause I don't believe the way they do.
I mainly take my beliefs from more ancient christian practices, or like the old saying, I take what I believe to be good and I throw out all the rest.
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Re: Spirituality

Post by icecab21 » Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:29 am

I wrote a research paper on scientology a few years ago( i got a good score on the paper, just not the grammer or the formalitys. ). It’s a great example of how to run a business for short term gains and control. Another example of selling towards wants instead of offering scientific solutions to needs with the ability to voluntarily participate in and move out of with full discloser.

since i thought it would be fun to bring up one of what i wrote and look it over again ill just put some of the stuff here.

The Victoria parliament agreed with the reports that Scientology was the "world's largest organization of unqualified persons engaged in the practice of dangerous techniques which masquerade as mental therapy”.

Scientology founder Lafayette Ron Hubbard has faced great controversy over the validly of his motives and actions. California Judge Paul G. Breckenridge observed, "The evidence portrays a man who has been virtually a pathological liar when it comes to his history, background, and achievements. The writings and documents in evidence additionally reflect his egoism, greed, avarice, lust for power" (Church of Scientology of California v. Gerald Armstrong, Case No. C420143).

. In an interview with L Ron Hubbard’s son in Penthouse magazine, his son recalled him as a “hard-drinking, drug-abusing father who would mistreat his mother and other women, but who, when under the influence, would delight in telling his son all of his exploits.” (http://www.rickross.com/reference/scien ... en240.html)

On April 10, 1953, Hubbard wrote: "We don't want a clinic. We want one in operation but not in name. Perhaps we could call it a Spiritual Guidance Center. Think up its name, will you...It is a problem of practical business. I await your reaction on the religion angle... A religion charter could be necessary in Pennsylvania on NJ to make it stick. But I sure could make it stick" (http://archiv.ub.uni-marburg.de/mjr/beit.html).

Scientology also has used deceptive professional titles to add a semblance of authority. One Scientologist admitted that her B.A. stood for Basic Administrator" and "Book Auditor.” Scientology uses what it calls a ‘personality test’ as a hook. The Australian Inquiry reported that one boy who took the test was told he was mentally unstable, had a defective character, and would have a mental breakdown unless he joined Scientology.

The Anderson Report commented on the auditing sessions as follows:
“During this, the preclear is very frequently experiencing mental torture, which shows itself in contorted and flushed features, tears, moaning, inability to speak, apparent deafness, nausea, dizziness, and sensations of pain, coma, and unconsciousness.” The report also says that “Sometimes preclears are so distraught that they scream, develop murderous feelings, have bouts of anger, grief and morbid feelings and thoughts; their sexual passions are aroused, they act insanely, laugh hysterically and engage in other hysterical behavior; they become violent and try to escape and have to be restrained.” (Anderson p. 170)

The name Scientology is trademarked by the Religious Technology Center and Scientology products and names are licensed to the Church for a fee. A trademark is legally defined as "any word, name, symbol, or device or any combination thereof, adopted and used by a manufacturer or merchant to identify its goods and distinguish them from those manufactured or sold by others" (15 U.S.C. , article 1121). People are being sued merely for talking about Scientology even when no commerce is involved. Scientology spends a great deal of money on lawyers and private investigators and has even framed crimes on ex-Scientologists

One Scientology website describes Scientology as a religion in the deepest and most traditional sense, claiming that “…it is concerned with no less than the full rehabilitation of man’s innate spiritual self - his capabilities, his awareness, and his certainty of his own immortality - and his relationship to the divine.” (http://www.scientologyreligion.org/pg006.html) One must consider that the original goal of Scientology was not to create a religion per se, but that religious criteria was added after Hubbard was having trouble with the science of Scientology. It is also easy to add religious aspects by simply comparing and then adding each step as follows so the policies match that of previous religions

The secular Cult Awareness Network includes Scientology as an authentic religion. (http://www.cultawarenessnetwork.org/dba ... sites.html). This would hold advantage if not for CAN being owned by the Foundation for Religious Freedom -- and therefore owned by Scientology. In a 1999 article it was stated that “the CAN service mark and logo were sold to a Scientology attorney for $20,000 several years ago.” (http://www.apologeticsindex.org/c19.html)

. In the Anderson Report, Scientology also stated "We don't claim to cure, curing is not our concern. Of course, if you look at our record, look at the miraculous cures we have effected, look what dianetics, which is a branch of Scientology, can do and has done, you will see that Scientology does cure; but we don't claim to cure.” (Anderson p.162) This kind of statement gives leeway to anything and it contradicts what has been testified about the recruitment process of Scientology.

Scientology also has declined to treat people who are insane, meaning it does not have an open door policy to everyone potentially interested. L Ron Hubbard says that the psychiatrist thinks of his patients as a "piece of meat,” yet he called newcomers to Scientology "raw meat.” It also seems ironic that there is such opposition to psychiatric drugs, given that
“L Ron Hubbard was given Vistaril® by Dr. Gene Denk in his final days, by intramuscular injection in the right buttocks. Vistaril® is a psychiatric drug, used to calm frantic or overly anxious patients.” (http://www.xenu.net/archive/hubbardcoroner/).


now it would save space to just put the paper online and link it but as one can read it's not the best paper.

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Re: Spirituality

Post by browneyedgirl » Sat Aug 09, 2008 1:40 pm

Oh, the celeb I mentioned: it is Tom Cruise. ;)
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Re: Spirituality

Post by AGAG » Sat Aug 09, 2008 3:29 pm

I kind of like their ideals:


Wiki:
The controversies involving the Church and its critics, some of them ongoing, include:

Scientology's disconnection policy, in which members are encouraged to cut off all contact with friends or family members considered "antagonistic."

The death of a Scientologist Lisa McPherson while in the care of the Church.

Scientology's harassment and litigious actions against its critics encouraged by its Fair Game policy.

Attempts to legally force search engines such as Google and Yahoo to omit any webpages critical of Scientology from their search engines (and in Google's case, AdSense), or at least the first few search pages...


Finally, a fair religion!
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Re: Spirituality

Post by NeonVomit » Sat Aug 09, 2008 5:54 pm

AGAG wrote:I kind of like their ideals:


Wiki:
The controversies involving the Church and its critics, some of them ongoing, include:

Scientology's disconnection policy, in which members are encouraged to cut off all contact with friends or family members considered "antagonistic."

The death of a Scientologist Lisa McPherson while in the care of the Church.

Scientology's harassment and litigious actions against its critics encouraged by its Fair Game policy.

Attempts to legally force search engines such as Google and Yahoo to omit any webpages critical of Scientology from their search engines (and in Google's case, AdSense), or at least the first few search pages...


Finally, a fair religion!
Yup, very fair! The more you pay the more you learn about it! (nevermind that you can find it all on the internet now for free).
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http://www.wintersverge.com


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Re: Spirituality

Post by hiro23 » Sun Aug 10, 2008 1:29 am

:lol: if that's what they call fair I'd rather stick with unfair beliefs :twisted:
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Re: Spirituality

Post by HvyMtlClickWitch » Sun Aug 10, 2008 2:23 am

My boyfriend's dad is a Scientologist. I never really talked to him about it (as you might imagine, he's kind of....not socially inclined). However, I'm really interested in what he thinks of it.
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Re: Spirituality

Post by miditek » Sun Aug 10, 2008 5:12 am

boswoth wrote:In the case of tolkki my take is this, because he feels so scared, he has convinced himself that he is sooooo important himself. Because of that, having people believing in a being thats more important than him, is like a slap in the face.
Outstanding observation, @boswoth. It's almost as if Tolkki is somehow jealous of a God that he either does not believe in, or, as is more likely the case, simply refuses to acknowledge.

boswoth wrote:It's why he always is writing things about the authoritarian religion. He is scared of authority, and God would be the supreme authority and judge. (It is pretty scary if you think about it!!!)
I'm almost wondering if you are a psychologist by profession (!), as this is probably the most accurate analysis I've seen of Tolkki's psyche. And yes, the judgement of God is a scary concept-

The Bible tells us: "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." Hebrews 10:31 (KJV). Another observation that I would like to add is that many pastors and theologians have summarized that our biological fathers play a significant role in our perception of, as well as attitude towards God. In Tolkki's case, this theory (which I believe to be rather accurate in many instances) would certainly lend credence to why Tolkki is so angry with God, since his biological father committed suicide, many years ago.

I am certain that he is angry with his earthly father for essentially abandoning him and his family by taking his own life, and now, that anger is directed towards God, probably for allowing the tragedy to happen- as opposed to overriding his father's free will. Now, Tolkki feels that his "mission" is to somehow prove to God (in addition to his late father) that He is not needed, and that the hero (Tolkki) feels that it is his divine mission to "rescue" as many people as possible from the "dangers" of God and Christianity through musical themes that are essentially, at times, thinly veiled propaganda, and a vehicle for delivering his still as of yet unresolved anger.
boswoth wrote:Hopefully one day he will not be so scared, and just let things be. And if he is lucky, the moment he lets his guard down, maybe then he will find a better relationship with his maker.
I am hopeful that he will too. And God can frequently suprise us when we least expect it. I believe that God loves Tolkki just as much as anyone else, and yearns to have a close relationship with his adopted son (as we are all adopted children of the Lord), and to begin the process of healing a lifetime of hurt.

boswoth wrote:You just know that if Tolkki ever found God, he would turn into a very powerful messenger indeed. He is not stupid, he is passionate and he has a gift of genius. He is just scared and at the moment God is too powerful for him to even dare to open his eyes to see him. He probably doesnt grasp that with infinite power comes infinite forgiveness. For him it would be like staring into the sun. But it could be it's what he needs to do. If your eye offends you..............
Once again, I strongly agree with your statements. I am certain that part of God's plan for Tolkki's life would definitely include leading potentially thousands (or more) people to the Lord. It is probably his true calling- not to be a rock star, but quite possibly to have a music ministry or to even possibly be an evangelist of sorts. For those that understand that concept of Divine Providence, it is very possible that all of the heartache that Tolkki has suffered could very well have been God shaping him to eventually become the man that the Almighty wanted him to be to begin with; something that God could foresee before Tolkki was even born.

I absolutely can envision Tolkki sitting down to speak with someone like Joel Rosenberg or Robert Schuller and having an amazing story to tell of what a transformation that God has performed in his life. I actually think that before it's over that this could be a very strong possibility.
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Re: Spirituality

Post by icecab21 » Sun Aug 10, 2008 6:06 am

Now if someone were to set up a religion, what sort of things would they put in it to insure that it gets people to follow? An ideal business could be one with successful long living customers for life with there always being one more step for one more commitment. One theory is that this is all man designed and manipulated in order to control mankind as a social control. Since we are in the spiritual section lets look at why X is the creator.

Well as long as he is a messenger for peace by peace and does not try to rip people apart piece by piece “for peace”.

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Re: Spirituality

Post by Carcass » Sun Aug 10, 2008 10:53 am

miditek wrote:C.S. Lewis once wrote that happiness apart from God is simply not possible.
My observation is that religious people are no happier than agnostics and atheists. I've observed for years the tormented life of one religious man who suffers from chronic depression. Last month I was working in Barcelona in a school run by monks, few days after I finished my job there one monk committed suicide by jumping from his balcony. In my high school one religious boy committed suicide too.

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Re: Spirituality

Post by Carcass » Sun Aug 10, 2008 5:31 pm

AGAG wrote:"Atheism" is not the Denial of God's existence as it's concept might say, it's just accepting his existence and getting away from him; for example, some atheists may say "I don't Believe in God" and by saying you don't believe in something you're actually accepting it's existance and you just choose "not to believe" in that
Try to apply this reasoning to other things than religion and you will find yourself scratching your head until you're bald...

Moreover, I don't think that my worldview is a product of choises I've made. I'm dyed-in-the-wool Agnostic because Agnosticism is what makes most sense to me. I simply cannot choose to believe in a deity just because I want to.

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Re: Spirituality

Post by miditek » Sun Aug 10, 2008 6:28 pm

Carcass wrote:
miditek wrote:C.S. Lewis once wrote that happiness apart from God is simply not possible.
My observation is that religious people are no happier than agnostics and atheists. I've observed for years the tormented life of one religious man who suffers from chronic depression. Last month I was working in Barcelona in a school run by monks, few days after I finished my job there one monk committed suicide by jumping from his balcony. In my high school one religious boy committed suicide too.
The two examples that you listed are certainly unfortunate instances. However, it is extremely important to realize that just because a person is religious that does not guarantee that he or she is actually close to God.

For example, the Book of Acts documents how St. Paul testified boldly before the Roman officials Felix and Festus, as well as the provincial king, Agrippa. Paul recounted that as Saul of Tarsus, he was one of the most zealous and religious rabbis in all of the land. There was not a single law that he was not aware and mindful of, and moreover, Paul (Saul) was essentially one of the most religious of all Jews.

This did not mean that Paul was in God's favor at the time. Far from it, in fact. Saul's zeal for strict interpretation to the letter of all Mosaic law, and not to mention his violent persecution of early Christians eventually led to a dramatic confrontation with Christ on the road to Damascus. Christ appeared to him, and said, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?" The glory that shone down upon him was so intense that it blinded him for several days thereafter.

It was not until Saul's conversion, and thereafter that he became known as Paul, did some dramatic changes begin to occur in his life.

The key point of all of this is despite that fact that Saul was one of the most 'religious' of all rabbis, he was, in fact, far from God at the time. It was only after he surrendered his will to God was his conversion complete, and God was able to use him as He had originally intended.

One can be religious, but that certainly does not indicate that they are close to and at peace with God- which in my opinion, is the true definition of happiness. Christians are not exempt from tribulations and sufferings, in fact, it is guaranteed that they will be persecuted (as was Paul, and many others) for their faith.

As I had mentioned before, one of the best definitions of this was given by the evangelist Pete Lord, when he said; "How we live is who we are as Christians, and everything else is simply religious jargon!"

Leading a self-serving life, in other words, never leads to happiness. However, Christians are commanded by God to take on the burdens of others- to realize that "It's not always about me", and then, and only then, can we begin to life what is known as the "bountiful life". Not all people, not even all Christians can accept and, more importantly, live by these words, but those that do, will certainly live a far happier existence than the Donald Trumps and Britney Spears of this world.

For a more contemporary example, I had read some of Solzhenitsyn's work in which he said that Russia, after very long periods of extreme suffering and hardships, was at long last finally beginning to spiritually reawaken as a nation. This is among the most fascinating of all of his writings.

Atheism, of course, was officially sponsored by the State- at gunpoint, for decades, but nothing, not Stalin, not the KGB, not two horrible World Wars with Germany, forced famines, nor the gulags could completely stamp God out of the Russian psyche. This was not from a lack of trying, but in the end, these efforts failed miserably to convince all of the people there that God did not exist. If all of that did not work, then what, pray tell would?
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Re: Spirituality

Post by miditek » Sun Aug 10, 2008 6:28 pm

Carcass wrote:
miditek wrote:C.S. Lewis once wrote that happiness apart from God is simply not possible.
My observation is that religious people are no happier than agnostics and atheists. I've observed for years the tormented life of one religious man who suffers from chronic depression. Last month I was working in Barcelona in a school run by monks, few days after I finished my job there one monk committed suicide by jumping from his balcony. In my high school one religious boy committed suicide too.
The two examples that you listed are certainly unfortunate instances. However, it is extremely important to realize that just because a person is religious that does not guarantee that he or she is actually close to God.

For example, the Book of Acts documents how St. Paul testified boldly before the Roman officials Felix and Festus, as well as the provincial king, Agrippa. Paul recounted that as Saul of Tarsus, he was one of the most zealous and religious rabbis in all of the land. There was not a single law that he was not aware and mindful of, and moreover, Paul (Saul) was essentially one of the most religious of all Jews.

This did not mean that Paul was in God's favor at the time. Far from it, in fact. Saul's zeal for strict interpretation to the letter of all Mosaic law, and not to mention his violent persecution of early Christians eventually led to a dramatic confrontation with Christ on the road to Damascus. Christ appeared to him, and said, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?" The glory that shone down upon him was so intense that it blinded him for several days thereafter.

It was not until Saul's conversion, and thereafter that he became known as Paul, did some dramatic changes begin to occur in his life.

The key point of all of this is despite that fact that Saul was one of the most 'religious' of all rabbis, he was, in fact, far from God at the time. It was only after he surrendered his will to God was his conversion complete, and God was able to use him as He had originally intended.

One can be religious, but that certainly does not indicate that they are close to and at peace with God- which in my opinion, is the true definition of happiness. Christians are not exempt from tribulations and sufferings, in fact, it is guaranteed that they will be persecuted (as was Paul, and many others) for their faith.

As I had mentioned before, one of the best definitions of this was given by the evangelist Pete Lord, when he said; "How we live is who we are as Christians, and everything else is simply religious jargon!"

Leading a self-serving life, in other words, never leads to happiness. However, Christians are commanded by God to take on the burdens of others- to realize that "It's not always about me", and then, and only then, can we begin to life what is known as the "bountiful life". Not all people, not even all Christians can accept and, more importantly, live by these words, but those that do, will certainly live a far happier existence than the Donald Trumps and Britney Spears of this world.

For a more contemporary example, I had read some of Solzhenitsyn's work in which he said that Russia, after very long periods of extreme suffering and hardships, was at long last finally beginning to spiritually reawaken as a nation. This is among the most fascinating of all of his writings.

Atheism, of course, was officially sponsored by the State- at gunpoint, for decades, but nothing, not Stalin, not the KGB, not two horrible World Wars with Germany, forced famines, nor the gulags could completely stamp God out of the Russian psyche. This was not from a lack of trying, but in the end, these efforts failed miserably to convince all of the people there that God did not exist. If all of that did not work, then what, pray tell would?
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icecab21
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Re: Spirituality

Post by icecab21 » Mon Aug 11, 2008 6:31 am

The leader Pharisee’s are the NT example of authoritarian rule based above god thinking of power and control over others that Jesus spends his life showing a way to be with god. A leader is a servant, not a dictator or controller. Jesus wanted people to help people be close to each other and god, yet the Pharisee’s wanted people to follow the leader Pharisee’s ( since some of the Pharisees wanted to follow Jesus but had social pressure against them). The leader Pharisee’s had a system that valued formality over humanity

Now with those devotional guide books one fun exercise is to go through them and write the same message different points of view.


Here’s one comedy view that jimmy carr does.

.” When I was a kid, I used to have an imaginary friend. I thought he went everywhere with me. I could talk to him and he could hear me, and he could grant me wishes and stuff too. But then I grew up, and stopped going to church.”

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Re: Spirituality

Post by AGAG » Mon Aug 11, 2008 9:12 am

Carcass wrote:
AGAG wrote:"Atheism" is not the Denial of God's existence as it's concept might say, it's just accepting his existence and getting away from him; for example, some atheists may say "I don't Believe in God" and by saying you don't believe in something you're actually accepting it's existance and you just choose "not to believe" in that
Try to apply this reasoning to other things than religion and you will find yourself scratching your head until you're bald...
Yes, because it only applies for a religious point of view; if someone says "I don't believe in ghosts" the reasoning would be stupid, but God and Ghosts are not the same thing...

Maybe people that truly doesn't believe in god are agnostics, atheists on the other hand do all they can to prove God's inexistance and you can see many internet pages for example, and, as miditek said, why should they care so much about something they don't believe in? that's where my reasoning applies.

To everyone: these (If you have enough time) are interesting theories concerning spirituality.
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icecab21
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Re: Spirituality

Post by icecab21 » Mon Aug 11, 2008 10:05 am

here is some stuff from

http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/rm.html#error


"Change over time
As society changes over time, which it does, people's opinions and assumptions change. The fact that these change over time as they do means that it is likely to continue to change; that our current understanding is only temporary. The deities responsible for holy text would know that this would happen, therefore the truths that are written in to them must be designed to be interpreted in a dynamic way; but this means that there are no absolutes.

Holy Texts reflect the opinions and points of view of those who read it, it doesn't form those opinions. They are re-interpreted according to the current trends and socio-economic factors, and there has not been a trend the other way round. I.e., a text did not cause a moral revolution, but instead it has been gradually re-interpreted according to how the morals have changed if a change was ready to occur. It is now considered immoral that Women are seen as inferior to Man and the slavery was godly. The Bible can be used to prove it. Yet it used to be the other way round, and the Bible was used as proof then, too. The actual text does not change, yet people will exploit its assumed "moral absolutes" in order to try and prove the things they believe. "

"Communication
By Vexen, 1999
Every person's has a unique set of neurones within their brain and a unique filtering system for the input that their brain receives. This means that no two people ever perceive the same experience or event at any given event - each person's neuronal brain will interpret it and present it in a slightly different way. Each person will have a slightly different version presented to their conscious self even before having time to consciously think about the event.
When a person imagines, perceives or has an apparent "experience" which comes from their God, then it must also pass through their mental systems before it is understood. Therefore it is easy to see that no two people can ever perceive the same God - for example, every Christian believes in a slightly different God depending on their own personal experiences and thought patterns, and psychological needs and wants. Nobody can perceive the absolute God without first having to think about it and therefore corrupt the image.

People who claim to know that the version of God they believe in is the right one are short-sighted and unintelligent - for they are claiming that their own nervous system is not capable of mistake - that their thought process is infallible. Claiming to have a brain that can observe absolute truth and not be corrupted by our fallible neurones is claiming to what only God can do: Observe the absolute reality."

"There are no absolute morals, all things are experienced by Humans subjectively. The existence of morals does not imply the existence of God, and, if God has morals it wants us to follow we have no methods of knowing for sure what those morals are. God has more often been used to justify immoral actions, such as war, oppression, the dark ages, etc, that it has to support good morals. Good morals can all be derived through humanistic logic, reason and biological emotion, there is no space for a competition between "God" and morals."

"New Age and Modern Paganism: 'No-one captures the flag'
“Pagans believe that no one belief system is correct and that each person should have the freedom to come themselves to the path of their choice. [...] For all Pagans there is no place for either dogma or proselytising.”
"Pagan Pathways" by Harvey & Hardman (1995)8

A similar liberal strain exists within New Age culture. Esalen, California, is an immensely important place and a foreground of the creation of modern New Age spirituality. Two such forefathers, Messrs Murphy and Prise, frequently repeated the saying that "no one captures the flag", "a phrase heard at Esalen to this day which means that every religion, fad and idea has equal access as long as it does not try to exclude or dominate the others. In practice, this ruled out the Abrahamic religions, but welcomed Yogic and Vedic philosophy, Zen Buddhism and Taoism, which are non-theistic and easy-going about orthodoxy"9. "


"Governments cannot return to the barbarism of history by trying to enforce one religion at the expense of others. It results in bloodshed and suffering. Democratic governance rules over all people, no matter what their beliefs are. Freedom of conscience and belief are democratic values, and they entail the separation of church and state. This allows and ensures religious freedom, as long no religion tries to 'capture the flag' and discriminate against others. If freedom is valued, one religion cannot discriminate against others even if they are compelled to by their creed. This keeps the monotheists and extremists within the reach of the law, and is the firm structure that allows pluralism to work, granting the greatest amount of intellectual and religious freedom and denying rights only to those who would reduce the freedom of others. "

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Re: Spirituality

Post by MetalAngel » Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:23 pm

God exists :
































Image
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COUGAR
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Re: Spirituality

Post by COUGAR » Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:37 pm

MetalAngel wrote:God exists :
































Image
Ah, the Rapper God.
What does he do, send Metalists to Hell? :D
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Re: Spirituality

Post by hiro23 » Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:40 pm

awesome, one of the metal gods, now you need pictures of Bruce Dickinson and Dio and Kotipelto up there 8)
metal feeds the beast

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Re: Spirituality

Post by Stealth » Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:36 am

AGAG wrote:if someone says "I don't believe in ghosts" the reasoning would be stupid, but God and Ghosts are not the same thing...
It doesn't matter whether they are the same thing or not. You dismiss the idea of the existence of ghosts, but there are people who think ghosts exist. If they would ask you whether you believe in ghosts or not, you would more than probably say no. Apply your reasoning and we get to the conclusion that you believe in ghosts. I think you are looking too much into it. When they say that they don't believe in God, what most atheists are probably saying is that God doesn't exist. I can ask you right now if you believe in fairies, and in this particular case you could answer by saying "fairies don't exist", but you know very well that if we were not paying attention to the exact words we choose, you would more than probably answer with a simple "no, I don't believe in fairies". Apply your reasoning and voilà, you believe in fairies.
AGAG wrote:Maybe people that truly doesn't believe in god are agnostics, atheists on the other hand do all they can to prove God's inexistance and you can see many internet pages for example, and, as miditek said, why should they care so much about something they don't believe in? that's where my reasoning applies.
This reasoning is incredibly flawed. Atheists talk about something they don't believe in because it's a way of exposing the flaws of religion to believers. It's also a way of seeking social change and a change in mentality and the way we perceive the world. What you are saying would be like saying "if religious people don't believe in Darwinian evolution, why do they talk about it so much?". I'm not even going to bother with a hypothetical answer because it should be self-evident and obvious.
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Re: Spirituality

Post by miditek » Wed Aug 13, 2008 5:50 am

My Siberian friend Vladi has a bumper sticker on his car that pretty well sums it up for me:

"Christianity is not a religion- it's a relationship."

Which of course, implies "Relationship with God and Christ"

His father is a Bible teacher and missonary- and- most ironically, some of his mission work took him to Finland.

Imagine that! Russians witnessing and ministering to Finns! :)
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Re: Spirituality

Post by MetalAngel » Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:29 am

hiro23 wrote:awesome, one of the metal gods, now you need pictures of Bruce Dickinson and Dio and Kotipelto up there 8)
No problem :D

Image

Image

Image

:wink:
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Re: Spirituality

Post by CottonCandy » Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:13 pm

MetalAngel wrote:
hiro23 wrote:awesome, one of the metal gods, now you need pictures of Bruce Dickinson and Dio and Kotipelto up there 8)
No problem :D

Image

Image

Image

:wink:
:omg:
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Re: Spirituality

Post by MetalAngel » Wed Aug 13, 2008 5:03 pm

Here is a great lesson on spirituality :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsI3aInYmOE&NR=1

:D
Toutes choses étant égales, par ailleurs, la solution la plus simple est toujours la meilleure.

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