South Ossetia conflict

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South Ossetia conflict

Post by R.F. » Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:55 pm

I wonder if those in the West know much about this shit happening... According to media of my interior and foreign media - it is very controversial. The only fact that cannot be denied - this morning (Now it`s 11 pm here, so it was about 12-15 hours ago) Georgian troops killed about 1400 of their own citizens. And now Russian forces moved out there. Lots of people keep dying.

So, does anyone have an opinion?

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Re: South Ossetia conflict

Post by Mormegil » Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:56 pm

I heard something about it on the news, but honestly, I stopped caring about the news "conflicts in the east" a loooong time ago. :roll:

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Re: South Ossetia conflict

Post by Stealth » Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:01 pm

Lots of people keep dying everywhere. No case is more important than the other. I'm saturated by those kinds of news. I also stopped caring (kind of).
If irony were made of strawberries, we'd all be drinking a lot of smoothies right now.

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Re: South Ossetia conflict

Post by R.F. » Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:51 pm

Yeah, that Afghan and Iraqi staff is pissing off everyone... And now that Ossetia, I bet not so much people even know where it is.
But you should remember that all this happening shit comes from West. The reason is the expansion of so called "democracy", lack of adequateness in dealing with other countries and stupid confidence in superiority of their way of life. It`s a pity that someone doesn`t care.
Well, actually I`m not an anti-westernist =)) I simply see that sometimes they have a point =)

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Re: South Ossetia conflict

Post by Mormegil » Fri Aug 08, 2008 11:18 pm

I don't see what the west and their strive for democracy has to do with conflict between Russia and Georgia. Maybe you can enlighten me, because I really don't know about the situation too well?

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Re: South Ossetia conflict

Post by R.F. » Fri Aug 08, 2008 11:39 pm

Isn`t it clear? Georgia (as well as other post-USSR republics) is a field for bsttle of influences. So, the democracy is US`s favourite method to influence every country in the world. The main American brand, so to say. Recently Georgia became a true-democratic country and is trying to make it`s way to NATO. Of course Russia doesn`t like it, but it has a trump card. Since Georgia has interior ethnic conflict (georgians against ossetins) and had already lost control over the South Ossetia province (btw, it has been struggling for independence since the fall of Russian Emprire in 1917), Russia gained a right to keep it`s peacekeepers mission in that hot spot. So the influences of Russia and US in the region are balanced. But this state cannot be kept forever - here comes the action. Or a game, if you like to name it like this. The problem is that this game costs peoples lifes. That`s it.

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Re: South Ossetia conflict

Post by icecab21 » Sat Aug 09, 2008 12:01 am

Democracy is a numbers game, completely neutral and completely dependant on the actions and beliefs of its citizens. This world has finite resources and a range of possibilities but we can't go outside the domain. Things will only go ideal in fiction. It’s a shame live and let live is not a universal concept that gets applied and that the power of differences does not get used to find solutions

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Re: South Ossetia conflict

Post by R.F. » Sat Aug 09, 2008 12:20 am

icecab21 wrote:Democracy is a numbers game, completely neutral and completely dependant on the actions and beliefs of its citizens. This world has finite resources and a range of possibilities but we can't go outside the domain. Things will only go ideal in fiction. It’s a shame live and let live is not a universal concept that gets applied and that the power of differences does not get used to find solutions
Unfortunately.

Well, I`m just feeling another disappointment in my profession) The thing that angered me is this - after reading several sites (BBC, CNN, etc.) I found out that all western media ignore the fact that it was Georgia who started this war - the first war of independent Russia. And they ignore the fact that Georgia killed more that 1,5 thousand (remember - it`s equal to 11/9) of it`s own people while bombing the city of Tshinval. Those media began informing of all this only when Russian tanks entered South Ossetia... and of course they name it an agression, not a defensive action as it is in real. And it is not like CNN did not know that something is happening - all this morning on my workplace I watched Reuters, AP and Kyodo news-tapes. They informed of Georgia attack just like our local media, they were writing the same things. But no Western TV channel used those materials. This is why I hate my profession -_-

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Re: South Ossetia conflict

Post by icecab21 » Sat Aug 09, 2008 1:08 am

There can be a whole profession refuting news stories. I hate how the news can be turned into a propaganda war and a power game. I’d like it if there was full discloser about agenda and bias. Some news has left objective as nonprofitable and gone straight for the subjective, each story has finite facts and then subjective perspectives and interpretations it seems. The shame is that people aren’t taught how to read (into) news and information. Another scary thing is the lack of consistency in reporting from first hand sources and the editing of information from the powers that spread the information. There are so many ideas that I would love to see happen, it just seems there’s target audience problems. There’s plenty of real journalism but it gets the backseat somehow.

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Re: South Ossetia conflict

Post by browneyedgirl » Sat Aug 09, 2008 2:27 am

I just hope USA&its allies keep their nose out of this because I think this conflict will be over in a few days if other players do not jump into it, and become involved.
Georgia is asking USA to help them out. :(
And, USA needs to keep in mind that Russia DOES have WMD, namely Nukes! In any case, USA doesn't need to get on the bad side of Russia again, especially over a conflict that doesn't concern/involved USA itself.
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Re: South Ossetia conflict

Post by AGAG » Sat Aug 09, 2008 7:24 am

browneyedgirl wrote:I just hope USA&its allies keep their nose out of this because I think this conflict will be over in a few days if other players do not jump into it, and become involved.
Georgia is asking USA to help them out. :(
And, USA needs to keep in mind that Russia DOES have WMD, namely Nukes! In any case, USA doesn't need to get on the bad side of Russia again, especially over a conflict that doesn't concern/involved USA itself.
Let's see what Mr. George Bush decides... I'm pretty sure he'll know what to do...
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Re: South Ossetia conflict

Post by Mormegil » Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:08 am

browneyedgirl wrote:I just hope USA&its allies keep their nose out of this because I think this conflict will be over in a few days if other players do not jump into it, and become involved.
Georgia is asking USA to help them out. :(
And, USA needs to keep in mind that Russia DOES have WMD, namely Nukes! In any case, USA doesn't need to get on the bad side of Russia again, especially over a conflict that doesn't concern/involved USA itself.
So, we'll be getting a nuclear war between USA and Russia after all.
See ya guys, I'm moving to a bunker somewhere in South Africa.

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Re: South Ossetia conflict

Post by icecab21 » Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:31 am

Heat in the center, destruction preventer
If you release one, you release 'em all
You can't defend Her, kneel down and surrender
Your end is at hand, if they blow

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Re: South Ossetia conflict

Post by R.F. » Sat Aug 09, 2008 10:52 am

I believe there is no one so stupid in US and Russia headquarters to start a war. Maybe it will be the same as in Korea, according to an old anekdote - "Today a North Korean ace Ivanov fought in the air with his South Korean opponent Johnson".
Here is the statement from Russian net-community to English speakers.
http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=QhhyZjNApBg
Note that it is not official.
And this morning I recieved an sms from my former classmate who`s serving in Russian special forces (similar to US commandos): "one battalion from our brigade is to be sent there today, we`re coming after them".

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Re: South Ossetia conflict

Post by AGAG » Sat Aug 09, 2008 10:56 am

R.F. wrote:I believe there is no one so stupid in US and Russia headquarters to start a war. Maybe it will be the same as in Korea, according to an old anekdote - "Today a North Korean ace Ivanov fought in the air with his South Korean opponent Johnson".
Here is the statement from Russian net-community to English speakers.
http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=QhhyZjNApBg
Note that it is not official.
And this morning I recieved an sms from my former classmate who`s serving in Russian special forces (similar to US commandos): "one battalion from our brigade is to be sent there today, we`re coming after them".
Yes, just ask Mr Bush...
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Re: South Ossetia conflict

Post by R.F. » Sat Aug 09, 2008 11:01 am

AGAG wrote:
Yes, just ask Mr Bush...
You think he wants to be the last US president? -_-

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Re: South Ossetia conflict

Post by NeonVomit » Sat Aug 09, 2008 11:04 am

R.F. wrote:I wonder if those in the West know much about this shit happening... According to media of my interior and foreign media - it is very controversial. The only fact that cannot be denied - this morning (Now it`s 11 pm here, so it was about 12-15 hours ago) Georgian troops killed about 1400 of their own citizens. And now Russian forces moved out there. Lots of people keep dying.

So, does anyone have an opinion?
It's front page news everywhere.

It's a complicated situation, especially considering almost everyone in South Ossetia is a Russian citizen. Really a tricky one, I just hope they can stop fighting and start talking again.

Anyway. I seriously doubt the USA would get involved. It's not their sphere of influence, and US interests are not affected one way or another by it. There's no oil there either so that's one less thing to care about.
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Re: South Ossetia conflict

Post by AGAG » Sat Aug 09, 2008 11:49 am

R.F. wrote:
AGAG wrote:
Yes, just ask Mr Bush...
You think he wants to be the last US president? -_-
That's what has been his main goal since he got elected.

NeonVomit wrote:
R.F. wrote: I wonder if those in the West know much about this shit happening... According to media of my interior and foreign media - it is very controversial. The only fact that cannot be denied - this morning (Now it`s 11 pm here, so it was about 12-15 hours ago) Georgian troops killed about 1400 of their own citizens. And now Russian forces moved out there. Lots of people keep dying.

So, does anyone have an opinion? .

It's front page news everywhere.

It's a complicated situation, especially considering almost everyone in South Ossetia is a Russian citizen. Really a tricky one, I just hope they can stop fighting and start talking again.

Anyway. I seriously doubt the USA would get involved. It's not their sphere of influence, and US interests are not affected one way or another by it. There's no oil there either so that's one less thing to care about.
Let's see what does George has to say about it:
George W. Bush wrote:If we don’t stop extending our troops all around the world in nation-building missions, we’re going to have a serious problem coming down the road.
This would be a great chance then...
George W. Bush wrote:Our enemies are innovative and resourceful...They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we.
Oh that's so lovely...
George W. Bush wrote:I just want you to know that, when we talk about war, we're really talking about peace.
Then let this peace endure...
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Re: South Ossetia conflict

Post by browneyedgirl » Sat Aug 09, 2008 1:29 pm

AGAG wrote:
browneyedgirl wrote:I just hope USA&its allies keep their nose out of this because I think this conflict will be over in a few days if other players do not jump into it, and become involved.
Georgia is asking USA to help them out. :(
And, USA needs to keep in mind that Russia DOES have WMD, namely Nukes! In any case, USA doesn't need to get on the bad side of Russia again, especially over a conflict that doesn't concern/involved USA itself.
Let's see what Mr. George Bush decides... I'm pretty sure he'll know what to do...
He will just ask "the brain" Mr. Cheney. :D
Bush is at the Olympics along with Mr. Putin, so maybe they hhave more on their minds besides starting a war.
There is some kind of constitutional clause which says something to the effect that in a National Crisis, president elections will be postponed/delayed. ;) Although I don't think this skirmish is that much to worry about at this present time, at least as far as USA is concerned. IMO, it will probably be settled in a few days if USA stays out of it. I mean, the conflict between Georgia&Russia is like a dogfight between a Chichuaua&a Pit Bull! :D Why Georgia would even take on Russia is beyond me!
In any case, we will see if Bush is a true idiot or not! :D
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Re: South Ossetia conflict

Post by AGAG » Sat Aug 09, 2008 3:13 pm

browneyedgirl wrote:
AGAG wrote:
browneyedgirl wrote:I just hope USA&its allies keep their nose out of this because I think this conflict will be over in a few days if other players do not jump into it, and become involved.
Georgia is asking USA to help them out. :(
And, USA needs to keep in mind that Russia DOES have WMD, namely Nukes! In any case, USA doesn't need to get on the bad side of Russia again, especially over a conflict that doesn't concern/involved USA itself.
Let's see what Mr. George Bush decides... I'm pretty sure he'll know what to do...
He will just ask "the brain" Mr. Cheney. :D
Bush is at the Olympics along with Mr. Putin, so maybe they hhave more on their minds besides starting a war.
There is some kind of constitutional clause which says something to the effect that in a National Crisis, president elections will be postponed/delayed. ;) Although I don't think this skirmish is that much to worry about at this present time, at least as far as USA is concerned. IMO, it will probably be settled in a few days if USA stays out of it. I mean, the conflict between Georgia&Russia is like a dogfight between a Chichuaua&a Pit Bull! :D Why Georgia would even take on Russia is beyond me!
In any case, we will see if Bush is a true idiot or not! :D
I Wouldn't bet on that one...
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Re: South Ossetia conflict

Post by Morgana » Sun Aug 10, 2008 2:57 pm

I heard that all the West thinks that it's Russia began the war. Blah... :x Georgia lost all it's conscience :x

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Re: South Ossetia conflict

Post by miditek » Sun Aug 10, 2008 5:40 pm

Morgana wrote:I heard that all the West thinks that it's Russia began the war. Blah... :x Georgia lost all it's conscience :x
Well, what's being reported over here in the newspapers is that Saakashvili's forces have been killing a lot of separatists in addition to a great deal of civilians, and that Tskhinvali has been essentially destroyed during the fighting. Saakashvili has admitted in during press conferences that the timing of these events (while the world's attention is on the Olympics in Beijing) is not coincidental.

Russia has responded with air strikes against Georgian military bases, and has since sent ground troops into Georgian territory and that there has been bitter fighting and high casualties. Saakashvili has blamed Moscow for unprovoked aggression, the Kremlin has blamed Washington for its past political and military support of Tbilisi, and Bush has cautioned Moscow to show restraint. That's what being reported now.

Unfortunately, many of my compatriots would have difficulty in finding Russia on a map (despite the fact that it is the world's largest country- as far as land mass goes), and are probably equally oblivious to the fact that there is a country that is named Georgia. :? Now of course, not all Americans are like this, but it's important to realize that my country has reached such a low point, the average Joe or Jane in the street is probably more worried about Britney Spears' next stunt or who is going to win the next NASCAR race to worry too much about this conflict. One that if it escalates much more, could potentially set the entire region alight with war and ethnic hatreds that are hundreds of years old.


As I said in a previous post, there are some Russians that work at my office, however, this is not something that we have discussed. I am certain that it would be a sensitive issue, and quite possibly not a suitable topic to speak about with people that we have to work with every day.
Κύριε ἐλέησον

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Re: South Ossetia conflict

Post by R.F. » Sun Aug 10, 2008 6:09 pm

It`s getting worse and worse now. It is a war and there is no right side here.
http://drugoi.livejournal.com/2691755.html
These are photos from Georgian city of Gori bombed by Russian air forces. This city is pretty far away from South Ossetia. It is highly believed that those photos are fake, but who can tell.
Anyway the media here and there still uses double standards. It`s a pity.

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Re: South Ossetia conflict

Post by NeonVomit » Sun Aug 10, 2008 6:15 pm

Georgia calls for S Ossetia ceasefire.

Hopefully we'll see a stop to this fighting before it gets really out of hand.

I guess we'll get a clearer picture of what exactly happened when the dust settles.

What a waste.
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Re: South Ossetia conflict

Post by R.F. » Sun Aug 10, 2008 7:05 pm

Another set of awful photos - CAUTION
signed as "Victims of Georgian fascism"
http://milkavkaz.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9956#9956
This is a propaganda war, both sides try to claim that another commited war crime.

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Re: South Ossetia conflict

Post by black death » Sun Aug 10, 2008 7:07 pm

Morgana wrote:I heard that all the West thinks that it's Russia began the war. Blah... :x Georgia lost all it's conscience :x
I don't know who began the war, but I also have no idea what are Russian troops doing in Georgia (= sovereign state) :?

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Re: South Ossetia conflict

Post by R.F. » Sun Aug 10, 2008 7:19 pm

black death wrote:
Morgana wrote:I heard that all the West thinks that it's Russia began the war. Blah... :x Georgia lost all it's conscience :x
I don't know who began the war, but I also have no idea what are Russian troops doing in Georgia (= sovereign state) :?
This what everyone even here wants to understand. In my opinion reason for all this is in imperialism of big countries. I suppose unfortunately they are doing just the same that NATO is doing in Afghanistan, Iraq and had been doing in Jugoslavia. According to the speeches that continue now at UN council Russian troops stay in the territory of South Ossetia accroding to the UN mandate and bombing Georgian war bases in other regions to prevent Georgia send more forces to Ossetia. What is it in real - nobody knows.
btw, UN is a bunch of freaks. They`ve been speaking for an hour and in such a beautiful tone, using such clever words - and no decision.

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Re: South Ossetia conflict

Post by NeonVomit » Sun Aug 10, 2008 7:37 pm

R.F. wrote: btw, UN is a bunch of freaks. They`ve been speaking for an hour and in such a beautiful tone, using such clever words - and no decision.
They've spent the last 4 days trying to decide the wording of a statement on the conflict. Yup, real productive.
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Re: South Ossetia conflict

Post by black death » Sun Aug 10, 2008 8:02 pm

R.F. wrote:I suppose unfortunately they are doing just the same that NATO is doing in Afghanistan, Iraq and had been doing in Jugoslavia.
Maybe, but it doesn't explain what are Russian troops doing in Georgia. I'm sick of all those excuses like "They're doing it too.". Hell yeah, I'm not saying NATO, UN or whoever else is innocent, but this is the most stupid excuse what anybody can use.

As to UN:
It has more than 180 member states. TWO people have often problems to find some reasonable agreement. UN has been criticized for this inefficiency for a long time...

Mustaine says it well:
"The UN is right, you can't be anymore "UN", than you are right now, the UN is undone..."

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Re: South Ossetia conflict

Post by R.F. » Sun Aug 10, 2008 8:15 pm

black death wrote:
R.F. wrote:I suppose unfortunately they are doing just the same that NATO is doing in Afghanistan, Iraq and had been doing in Jugoslavia.
Maybe, but it doesn't explain what are Russian troops doing in Georgia. I'm sick of all those excuses like "They're doing it too.". Hell yeah, I'm not saying NATO, UN or whoever else is innocent, but this is the most stupid excuse what anybody can use
.
Exactly. This is a cursed circle. But look at UN - all excuses they use there are stupid and have nothing to do with reality. If USA representative cannot win an argument with other representative, America bombs Iraq without UN mandate. And everyone is ok with that. And now the similar thing can happen - Russia just sends UN to hell and continues it`s own actions. It`s the worst scenario.
All those excuses - words of people who are used to stay in their safe offices in New York and decide who`s right or wrong. They even don`t know what the war is. It is all because they all follow only interests of their countries, not the interests of people who keep dying.
black death wrote: As to UN:
It has more than 180 member states. TWO people have often problems to find some reasonable agreement. UN has been criticized for this inefficiency for a long time...
Here, in Russia, it is highly believed that UN is uneffecient because, while being funded mainly by US, it is not always supporting their interests. Other countries do not seem to like the idea of rising their share in UN, so it`s rotting...

So, I suppose only the war commanders now can actually stop fighting, no hope for UN.

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