Stanislaw Markelow shot - Russia where are you heading?

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Stanislaw Markelow shot - Russia where are you heading?

Post by stratohawk » Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:51 am

In deep concern and sorrow I just read the following news: Stanislaw Markelow, lawyer of the murdered journalist Anna Politkowskaja and defender of a Chechen family which's daughter was murdered by a Russian Officer, was shot in Moscow, at daylight, in the streets. Another lawyer was killed whilst trying to prevent the murderer from escaping.

Russia, where are you heading? Journalists being murdered, the trials ending without any results, war criminals being prosecuted only halfhearted, demonstrants are being kept from the streets with rigorous methods, criticism of politics being prosecuted (closing of radio stations, newspapers), and the former president managing politics in the background. What are those forces doing with this mighty and beautiful country?

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Re: Stanislaw Markelow shot - Russia where are you heading?

Post by Neorave » Tue Jan 20, 2009 2:12 am

stratohawk wrote:Russia, where are you heading? Journalists being murdered, the trials ending without any results, war criminals being prosecuted only halfhearted, demonstrants are being kept from the streets with rigorous methods, criticism of politics being prosecuted (closing of radio stations, newspapers), and the former president managing politics in the background. What are those forces doing with this mighty and beautiful country?
Ah, sounds like good ol' communist Russia is going back to her roots.
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Re: Stanislaw Markelow shot - Russia where are you heading?

Post by Stealth » Tue Jan 20, 2009 2:56 am

Neorave wrote:Ah, sounds like good ol' communist Russia is going back to her roots.
Ah, sounds like good ol' capitalist Americans are stigmatizing the Russians again.
If irony were made of strawberries, we'd all be drinking a lot of smoothies right now.

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Re: Stanislaw Markelow shot - Russia where are you heading?

Post by stratohawk » Tue Jan 20, 2009 8:41 am

No no, that's not my goal. And these developments have nothing to do with Russia heading back to communism. These are tendencies that show how fragile real freedom (of speech, of labour, ....) is, 20 years after the fall of the iron curtain.

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Re: Stanislaw Markelow shot - Russia where are you heading?

Post by Morgana » Tue Jan 20, 2009 8:56 am

Neorave wrote:Ah, sounds like good ol' communist Russia is going back to her roots.
Communists have nothing to do with it.

IMHO, Russian life has two sides. One of them - comparative quiet even when everywhere is crisis and scare. People work and get money, not such big than before but they do. On the other hand - people of power do something that hidden from population. They have their own reality and their own life that is a secret for us. And they have their own reasons to do something. I don't say that it's right but they have it and we can just guess about it.

If I could choose between publicity (or "glasnost") of 90's when everyone new what everyone do to live better, and between nowadays when personnaly me and my parents and my son live very well, - heh, I like my time. :roll: And if it needs some victim to keep an order in Russia - ok, no problem. I don't care.

But of course we all does care when something concerns to us personally. Please understand me right, I don't discharge killers, I just mean that discontenteds were in all times and at any power's time. Tell me where is an ideal order. :roll:

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Re: Stanislaw Markelow shot - Russia where are you heading?

Post by nepi » Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:18 am

orders in public places are very important for every country. But from my point of view, it stops where human rights are hurted and where the government tries to hide facts which happened.

I wondered couple of month ago, where journalists and spies were poisoned and the story about the newspaper company, which has written a report against the government (and has been closed at the same day)... Such facts kinda confuse me.

Russia is not in need to do such things...
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Re: Stanislaw Markelow shot - Russia where are you heading?

Post by Morgana » Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:50 am

nepi wrote:orders in public places are very important for every country. But from my point of view, it stops where human rights are hurted and where the government tries to hide facts which happened.
I think it happens everywhere, but somewhere government learns to hide it and somewhere it doesn't.

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Re: Stanislaw Markelow shot - Russia where are you heading?

Post by nepi » Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:57 am

Morgana wrote:
nepi wrote:orders in public places are very important for every country. But from my point of view, it stops where human rights are hurted and where the government tries to hide facts which happened.
I think it happens everywhere, but somewhere government learns to hide it and somewhere it doesn't.
learns to hide it :D

well, China e.g. does hide such things (and they even got an agreement with google to hide such news). In some countries, the freedom of press is a pretty "high right" of everyone and there you can't hide riots...
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Re: Stanislaw Markelow shot - Russia where are you heading?

Post by black death » Tue Jan 20, 2009 10:48 am

Morgana wrote:And if it needs some victim to keep an order in Russia - ok, no problem. I don't care.
Imagine that your son is a lawyer some day in future...and he defends somebody like Politkowskaja. Still don't you care?

Morgana wrote:
nepi wrote:orders in public places are very important for every country. But from my point of view, it stops where human rights are hurted and where the government tries to hide facts which happened.
I think it happens everywhere, but somewhere government learns to hide it and somewhere it doesn't.
And what a Russian government tried to hide? Hide this by doing in publicly in the day?? :shock: I understand the word "hide" a little bit different...

Anyway, if the government in most countries would hide killing a lawyer JUST FOR defending an inconvenient person, and if the media would find it out, you can bet there would be a huge affair covered in practically all media a long time, and it wouldn't stop before somebody would be found responsible for that (small fish or big fish, at least somebody). Look what happens when media/people/whoever in Russia start critisizing this killing. Call it how you want, but I do NOT call it freedom of speach, which is one of the fundamental human rights.
(check Chapter 2 here - http://www.departments.bucknell.edu/rus ... nstit.html)

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Re: Stanislaw Markelow shot - Russia where are you heading?

Post by Carcass » Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:08 am

black death wrote:And what a Russian government tried to hide?
Let's not jump into conclusions. I'm not saying it didn't come from the top, but there are other possibilities too. The accused in the case would be one.

Killing lawyers and journalists is not very good PR, so if I were Medvedev or Putin I would find more descreet ways of handling things. But then again, I'm not either of them.

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Re: Stanislaw Markelow shot - Russia where are you heading?

Post by nepi » Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:14 am

black death wrote:...whoever in Russia start critisizing this killing. Call it how you want, but I do NOT call it freedom of speach, which is one of the fundamental human rights.
(check Chapter 2 here - http://www.departments.bucknell.edu/rus ... nstit.html)
my words dude... and that's why hiding riots (I just call it hide because of the simplicity) could not happened in Germany, France, England etc...

don't misunderstand me guys, I don't want to judge against Russia... Russia is a wonderful country and I think they still are a bit scared that the government could not handle things in this country and everything got out of control, so they want to keep this risk at a minimum...
we also should involve the fact that Russia is another culture and has another history.... every country got its own history n culture and not everyone can feel and understand that...
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Re: Stanislaw Markelow shot - Russia where are you heading?

Post by Morgana » Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:33 am

black death wrote:
Morgana wrote:And if it needs some victim to keep an order in Russia - ok, no problem. I don't care.
Imagine that your son is a lawyer some day in future...and he defends somebody like Politkowskaja. Still don't you care?
Read my post. I told that "But of course we all does care when something concerns to us personally. "

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Re: Stanislaw Markelow shot - Russia where are you heading?

Post by stratohawk » Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:17 pm

I don't want to call it a comparison (cause it would be more than far-fetched...), and anyways, Russia definitely has changed a lot since the fall of the Iron Curtain - but let's take the former Iraq as prime example. Before GWB waged war against Iraq, people lived peacefully there, in wealth and prosperity, iliteracy was sinking, the country was rich compared to its neighbours. But the price for this was a cruel, inhuman regime, lead by a mass murderer. Means only the ones that came to terms with their political system had a good life. Critics were pursuited, arrested, tortured and killed. Or let's look at China. The progress of China is bought dearly; human rights activists being prosecuted, millions of labours working under inhuman conditions on the gigantic construction sites.

Now, as I said, this should not be a direct comparison, and I don't want to speculate about how Russian politicians are involved in the assassination of e.g. Anna Politkowskaja or Stanislaw Markelow, but we find some similarities regarding freedom of speech, civil rights, and so on. Russian people also deserve to have freedom of speech, of expression, and media, just as the family of the murdered Chechen girl has a right to get a lawyer and punishment for the Russian Officer who killed their daughter.

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Re: Stanislaw Markelow shot - Russia where are you heading?

Post by stratohawk » Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:22 pm

Morgana wrote: If I could choose between publicity (or "glasnost") of 90's when everyone new what everyone do to live better, and between nowadays when personnaly me and my parents and my son live very well, - heh, I like my time. :roll: And if it needs some victim to keep an order in Russia - ok, no problem. I don't care.
Yes of course you prefer (as all of us would do) improved situation of income, work, living. But IMHO it is NOT okay to buy better conditions with the victims of innocent people. Where should this lead? We can go back in history of EVERY single one of our different countries, where scapegoats have suffered for the collective good of the majority of the population.

Let me please add that I do not want to judge a country or even its people. I'm simply deeply concerned about these developments in Russia, regarding human rights and freedom of the individual citizens.

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Re: Stanislaw Markelow shot - Russia where are you heading?

Post by Shurik » Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:13 pm

As I see it, Russia is heading towards being a slightly saner version of USSR. It basically has one big ruling party and few other small ones with no real influence, just to show that there is a democracy there. Their current president got more than 70% of votes because Putin supported him, and Putin himself is still the real ruler and will probably be back as a president for quite a long period of time because of the new law (the term of the presidency is 6 years instead of 4, starting with the next elections).
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Re: Stanislaw Markelow shot - Russia where are you heading?

Post by black death » Tue Jan 20, 2009 2:16 pm

Carcass wrote:
black death wrote:And what a Russian government tried to hide?
Let's not jump into conclusions.
Oops, I wanted to write rather something like high officials or whoever who has the power to do it. You're right, I have no idea who exactly is behind that.
Morgana wrote:I told that "But of course we all does care when something concerns to us personally. "
OK, I'm sorry, I just DO care when somebody's unreasonably killed even if he/she is not my relative or friend. Once it's somebody else, next time it can be your friend/relative/you.
stratohawk wrote:Russian people also deserve to have freedom of speech, of expression, and media, just as the family of the murdered Chechen girl has a right to get a lawyer and punishment for the Russian Officer who killed their daughter.
Yes, that's exactly my point. Unfortunately it seem that some (many?) Russian people do not care if they have freedom of speech. And those who care... :roll:

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Re: Stanislaw Markelow shot - Russia where are you heading?

Post by nepi » Tue Jan 20, 2009 2:21 pm

stratohawk wrote:Before GWB waged war against Iraq, people lived peacefully there, in wealth and prosperity, iliteracy was sinking, the country was rich compared to its neighbours. But the price for this was a cruel, inhuman regime, lead by a mass murderer. Means only the ones that came to terms with their political system had a good life. Critics were pursuited, arrested, tortured and killed.
In this, I see an opposition: Hussein was kinda terrorist, domineered over the people and did not care about them. He just had his tremendous palace and made some strategic decisions there... So I do not see this as people lived peaceful there, in wealth and prosperity...
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Re: Stanislaw Markelow shot - Russia where are you heading?

Post by Morgana » Tue Jan 20, 2009 2:21 pm

I agree with all your words, Timon, except this:
stratohawk wrote:Russian people also deserve to have freedom of speech, of expression, and media.
IMHO, Russian people need strong power and not much freedom. Freedom means death for Russian people. It's our mentality. The most part of Russian people have low level of education and development at all, they live in small villages in Siberia and can even have no education at all. If full information will be given to people - the most part of these people won't know what to do with it.

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Re: Stanislaw Markelow shot - Russia where are you heading?

Post by black death » Tue Jan 20, 2009 2:38 pm

Morgana wrote:I agree with all your words, Timon, except this:
stratohawk wrote:Russian people also deserve to have freedom of speech, of expression, and media.
IMHO, Russian people need strong power and not much freedom. Freedom means death for Russian people. It's our mentality. The most part of Russian people have low level of education and development at all, they live in small villages in Siberia and can even have no education at all. If full information will be given to people - the most part of these people won't know what to do with it.
That's worse than I thought Image.
Freedom means death? Why? How? What do you mean by this?

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Re: Stanislaw Markelow shot - Russia where are you heading?

Post by Morgana » Tue Jan 20, 2009 3:00 pm

black death wrote:Freedom means death? Why? How? What do you mean by this?
The last time when Russian people got theis freedom there was almost civil war in 80's.

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Re: Stanislaw Markelow shot - Russia where are you heading?

Post by stratohawk » Tue Jan 20, 2009 4:09 pm

nepi wrote:
stratohawk wrote:Before GWB waged war against Iraq, people lived peacefully there, in wealth and prosperity, iliteracy was sinking, the country was rich compared to its neighbours. But the price for this was a cruel, inhuman regime, lead by a mass murderer. Means only the ones that came to terms with their political system had a good life. Critics were pursuited, arrested, tortured and killed.
In this, I see an opposition:
Okay, let me also contradict :-)
nepi wrote: Hussein was kinda terrorist, domineered over the people and did not care about them.
Hussein was no terrorist, per definition. This is only what Bush wanted to make the world think. And in fact, in some way he cared about his people.
nepi wrote: He just had his tremendous palace and made some strategic decisions there... So I do not see this as people lived peaceful there, in wealth and prosperity...
Yes, of course we refuse to see, but it is fact, and I read several articles about it, that Iraq under Saddam Hussein was one of the most wealthy countries in the Arab world. There are proven statistics that his country had low illiterate percentage, and women were able to get education. In some way he cared about his people (and at the same time killing thousands of them, yes, to consolidate absolute claim to power), installing an efficient health care system, etc. Compare this to all the countries like Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, .... These facts cannot be denied. But as I said, these advantages were bought dearly. Only those who accepted his cruel regime and did not stand out, could benefit from this.

But I don't want to discuss Iraq here. It was simply an exaggerated example, for that a tight regime and some suppression at least in a few points can lead to better development of a country (don't think that I favour this, please!!!!). And I have the impression, this is what Morgana tells us as well.

@Morgana: This sounds quite hard to me. But even if you are right (and you might know better, you live there :-)), it's never, never ever acceptable, nowhere in the world, that people get KILLED because of their opinion, that war criminals can count on a verdict of not guilty. This is simply not acceptable!

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Re: Stanislaw Markelow shot - Russia where are you heading?

Post by black death » Tue Jan 20, 2009 5:12 pm

Morgana wrote:
black death wrote:Freedom means death? Why? How? What do you mean by this?
The last time when Russian people got theis freedom there was almost civil war in 80's.
Do you think you can be a little bit more concrete?

Btw. what is worse - when people are dying in civil war or when people are dying by shots to their heads in dark streets at night? You can say that civil war has more victims...maybe...and maybe not. Civil wars usually last a few months, exceptionally years, but this absolute ignorance of human rights seem to last much longer everytime and everywhere. Freedom might mean some deaths (question is if the freedom is the cause of the death), but lack of freedom also means deaths (ask Markelow or Politkowska about that).

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Re: Stanislaw Markelow shot - Russia where are you heading?

Post by Morgana » Tue Jan 20, 2009 5:16 pm

black death wrote:Do you think you can be a little bit more concrete?
Do you know history?

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Re: Stanislaw Markelow shot - Russia where are you heading?

Post by black death » Tue Jan 20, 2009 5:49 pm

Morgana wrote:Do you know history?
Let's say no. In fact I just don't understand why are you blaming "freedom" itself. I would find thousands of other reasons to blame...

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Re: Stanislaw Markelow shot - Russia where are you heading?

Post by Morgana » Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:50 pm

black death wrote:Let's say no. In fact I just don't understand why are you blaming "freedom" itself. I would find thousands of other reasons to blame...
Not freedom itself but freedom for Russian people. You read my posts not very attentively. I explaned my point of view and have nothing to say anymore.

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Re: Stanislaw Markelow shot - Russia where are you heading?

Post by R.F. » Wed Jan 21, 2009 12:03 am

Escuse me, but why every murder in Russia makes Westerners to nodd and tell to themselves - "Poor Russians... they have such a bloody regime"?) Well, probably you already know that there is only one party here already, like in old times))) but there are lots of other powers here as well and the nationalistic is just one of them. Aren`t there such phenomenas in your countries (probably, the ones from USA have only to agree) It is ridiculous to say that such forces backed by Kremlin. Aren`t we a damn multi-ethnic country and just federation of states after all?) If the authorities let the slavonic nazis do what they want, the whole country will be dismantled. I`d rather say that now the goverment is carefully balancing between nationalistic and... how to say, "anarcho-anti-fascist" trends in our society trying to minimize them both. So it is a rather primitive way to explain the Markelov`s murder by the the threat of "Purin`s iron fist".
Markelov, by the way, was the first Russian lawyer who showed that jury courts do not work in here. Russian jury members would never back, for example, a Caucasian. And visa versa. Markelov was the first one who offered to stop the jury system and come to an old one. This is, btw, the source of such opinions like "people in Russia can live only with a strong power above". Of course it is not like this. I think it can be explained much easier - like everyone, we do not like to be told what to do) By the way, remember Japan. They have only one ruling party since 1953 - the end of occupation. But even US did not ever tell them how to live and you know why. It is not the matter of democratic freedoms, it is a matter of national interests. If you are on one side, you may welcome you ally as he is. And if you are opposed to someone, your behaviour suddenly changes ;) That is what politics actually is.

Yes, and please do not forget the accidental victim of the latest tragedy - journalist Anastasia Baburova. She was a great profesional and a very creative person, met here once or twice at the university... The best ones are leaving us, as always.

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Re: Stanislaw Markelow shot - Russia where are you heading?

Post by AAAAAAAAAA » Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:08 am

I always thought Stanislaw was a kind of salad :oops:
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Re: Stanislaw Markelow shot - Russia where are you heading?

Post by miditek » Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:14 am

Markelow's death was, of course tragic, much like the death of his former client. However, it is essential to understand that Russia is not America. Journalists in the U.S. openly commit treason, and are awarded Pulitzer prizes by their peers, while Russian journalists often write and report at their own risk.

In this particular case, as in many others, Markelow apparently forgot what country he was in, and that gangsters are still in control at the Kremlin. He seemed to be looking for publicity, which unfortunately led to attention that would ultimately prove fatal. I cannot imagine that he could be so stupid as to not see this outcome, especially given the widespread media coverage of the fates of others that have displeased Moscow.
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Re: Stanislaw Markelow shot - Russia where are you heading?

Post by black death » Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:40 am

Morgana wrote:
black death wrote:Let's say no. In fact I just don't understand why are you blaming "freedom" itself. I would find thousands of other reasons to blame...
Not freedom itself but freedom for Russian people. You read my posts not very attentively. I explaned my point of view and have nothing to say anymore.
No, you're wrong, I have read your posts carefully and for some reason I expected either no answer or exactly such an elusive answer :roll: . That's really sad to see that somebody doesn't want freedom/right (to which he/she is entitled to not only because I am saying it or human right activists and a lot of other people are saying this, but also because his/her own state secures it in its legal system) and does NOT know why. Really sad.

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Re: Stanislaw Markelow shot - Russia where are you heading?

Post by Morgana » Wed Jan 21, 2009 11:11 am

black death, think waht you want, I don't care.

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