Religion and Politics

Post by **JensJohansson** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:17 pm

A Finnish politician rock preacher. Note he's doing the "devil horns" in this political ad. Text says something like "I ain't fake and I don't talk no bullshit. Metal preacher and teacher."

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/200 ... l-worship/

Ragehead91 · Post by **Ragehead91** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:37 pm

RazielSR · Post by **RazielSR** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:43 pm

For me it doesn't matter if it's a super cool man making metaleclesiastic music or it's a bishop praying for salvation. It's the same shit. This man (seeing his face you can see that he have serious mental problems) just wants to have some publicity.
I know very well what's that kind of hypocrisy (mass, churches, prayers, etc, etc) just to control people. I know what's that invention called "The Roman Catholic Church" (see this map and you'll understand http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... onsnew.png )

So if Finland needs some metalbishop to control people minds, it's ok.

Anyway the fucking metalbishop makes me laugh a lot

Lurdi · Post by **Lurdi** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:53 am

In Spain we also have a preacher that is in a Rock band. He's called Jony. He writes his songs about God and religion.
Lol, he's fun. It's not a very common thing. Have a look.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbZceJhzl8U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKHWxrlU ... re=related

Ragehead91 · Post by **Ragehead91** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:09 am

Okay, that is really funny!

RazielSR · Post by **RazielSR** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:12 am

ROFL

Yes, we have here a spanish metalbishop, a friend of the finnish metalbishop. They could make a band.

There's an italian macarronimetalbishop too.

Ragehead91 · Post by **Ragehead91** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:16 am

I think one of my friends had a bishop in his town that liked stuff like Rammstein and is in a Metal Band too. Maybe they should ask him to join...

RazielSR · Post by **RazielSR** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:20 am

OMFG, we have to make a reunion to see if they fit in a new band or something

NeverendingAbyss · Post by **NeverendingAbyss** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:39 am

I FOUND MY RELIGION!!!!!

Post by **JensJohansson** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 3:15 am

RazielSR wrote:I know what's that invention called "The Roman Catholic Church" (see this map and you'll understand http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... onsnew.png )

So if Finland needs some metalbishop to control people minds, it's ok.

I'm not sure what to think about it, but I'm in general pretty accepting. I took the picture last fall -- from the back of a bus seat. It was around the time of the US election. I remember thinking, if I don't take this picture nobody in the US at least would believe it. A preacher running for public office doing the devil horns, saying "I ain't gonna bullshit ya' "

It's amazing how that map traces back to the thirty years' war, and the distribution that time of losers and other losers (there were no winners ...)

Lest you think Catholics have some sort of patent on sternly telling their fellow man what to do and not to do, in Finland and Sweden we have this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laestadianism

I somehow get the impression that the laestadians' uphill battle mostly seems to be with their fellow humans' alcohol intake.

browneyedgirl · Post by **browneyedgirl** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 3:15 am

Life is all about control. Its bad enough that humans are controlled by their employers, spouses, parents, the police, the IRS, the government in general, even physicians. Does religion have to control peoples life, too?

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s311 ... /jesus.jpg

Do these guys count? I don't think they preach, but they are classed as Christian rockers trying to spread the message somewhat through their music.

Jesus as Metal rock star.

Pretty cool.

miditek · Post by **miditek** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 5:22 am

browneyedgirl wrote:Life is all about control. Its bad enough that humans are controlled by their employers, spouses, parents, the police, the IRS, the government in general, even physicians. Does religion have to control peoples life, too?

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s311 ... /jesus.jpg

Do these guys count? I don't think they preach, but they are classed as Christian rockers trying to spread the message somewhat through their music.

One of the great deceptions about Christianity is that it is all about control. Christ, by God's very design, was sent to actually free mankind from the slavery and bondage of sin.

How many people do you know are a slave to one thing or another in the secular world- such as alcohol, drugs, sex, money, etc. and in the process, become a slave to stress, worry, forboding, restlessness, violence, hatred, and fear?

When life becomes "all about me", doesn't life then become, miserable? Life is certainly not easy, and God never promised us that it would be, but what He did promise was that He would be with ALL believers and be their champion to meet their challenges.

One person that came to mind- that never ceases to amaze me, was the Dutch woman Corrie Ten Boom, the author of "the Hiding Place". She risked her life to hide Jewish people during WWII, and was imprisoned for it. Years later, I can still recall seeing pictures of her, well into her eighties, and she had that unmistakable glow and aura about her that, at least for me, showed an incredibly strong indwelling of the Holy Spirit, despite what she'd been through, such as the loss of family, including her beloved sister, Betsie Ten Boom. Her books were amazing!

Stryper, by the way, took their name from:

"But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. - Isaiah 53:5 (KJV)

Sound like someone familiar? It's interesting to note that Isaiah was executed nearly seven centuries before the birth of Christ.

It's well documented in the Gospels that Christ was scourged first by Pontius Pilate, and later by soldiers prior to the Crucifixion. Mel Gibson's "The Passion" certainly showed an unbelievably brutal series of beatings and scourgings- Roman style.

Stryper were a great band, imho, although a more contemporary example of a Christian metal band that sounds much less dated would be Harmony from, (gasp!), of all places, Sweden!

http://www.myspace.com/harmonyofficial

Post by **JensJohansson** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:00 am

miditek wrote:One of the great deceptions about Christianity is that it is all about control. Christ, by God's very design, was sent to actually free mankind from the slavery and bondage of sin.

Shrewd European rulers used the church, and religion, for control -- mostly for tax collection. Also to start wars. Lots of them. People remember that, it sort of sucked what these people in the ruling class did.

As an aside (and this is an honest question), does it say in the bible anywhere that condoms should not be used? Or is mr. Ratzinger speaking out of turns?

Here you guys are talking about Stryper and i bring up Stephen Pearcy (Ratt's Zinger.. bada bish)

One person that came to mind- that never ceases to amaze me, was the Dutch woman Corrie Ten Boom, the author of "the Hiding Place". She risked her life to hide Jewish people during WWII, and was imprisoned for it. Years later, I can still recall seeing pictures of her, well into her eighties, and she had that unmistakable glow and aura about her that, at least for me, showed an incredibly strong indwelling of the Holy Spirit, despite what she'd been through, such as the loss of family, including her beloved sister, Betsie Ten Boom. Her books were amazing!

You call it "Holy Spirit", I call it a healthy dose of Sticking-it-to-the-man-itis and having giant size balls of steel.. maybe they sometimes are the same thing.

Stryper were a great band, imho, although a more contemporary example of a Christian metal band that sounds much less dated would be Harmony from, (gasp!), of all places, Sweden!

http://www.myspace.com/harmonyofficial

There's also Narnia, friends of mine. Really good music too.

icecab21 · Post by **icecab21** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:38 am

It seems with religion that everyone has their own god even when they are worshipping in the same room. Each person has his or her own interpretation and expirence.

Ragehead91 · Post by **Ragehead91** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:44 am

JensJohansson wrote:As an aside (and this is an honest question), does it say in the bible anywhere that condoms should not be used? Or is mr. Ratzinger speaking out of turns?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2cmdfoy0v4

miditek · Post by **miditek** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:50 am

JensJohansson wrote:Shrewd European rulers used the church, and religion, for control -- mostly for tax collection. Also to start wars. Lots of them. People remember that, it sort of sucked what these people in the ruling class did.

Shrewd possibly in the secular sense, but positively unwise in the spiritual, and not a totally new concept. The Sanhedrin were using God's name to persecute people two thousand and more years ago.

Using God to start wars really has brought destruction down upon a lot of leaders- both monarchs, as well as clerics.

But the fear of God isn't always needed to collect taxes- most governments do a pretty good job of instilling fear of what happens if people don't pay taxes.

The Pharisees tried to trick Christ at the (second) temple by asking Him if it was lawful to pay taxes, to which He replied, "Render to Casear what is Caesar's and render to God what is God's", meaning that citizens were responsible for paying attention to the law of the land by paying their taxes, but also were responsible to God's law by paying their tithe (10%- a bargain, if you ask me, considering what the government takes out of paychecks every week!). It's also important to note that if the goverment or officials in the church misuse what funds the people provide, God will deal with them- that is certain.

JensJohansson wrote:As an aside (and this is an honest question), does it say in the bible anywhere that condoms should not be used? Or is mr. Ratzinger speaking out of turns?

Imho, that's another example of the Vatican playing "cafeteria plan Bible teaching", and completely ignoring some important passages in Genesis, in addition to the entire book of the Song of Solomon.

Modern style latex condoms, of course, didn't exist in Biblical times, but in over thirty five years of reading the Bible, I've never seen anything in it that stipulates that sex is strictly for procreation. In fact, the Bible actually teaches that people (married couples, of course!) are supposed to derive pleasure from sex inside the covenant of marriage, and that this is a gift from God.

My personal interpretation is that sex is indeed a gift from God, is intended to be pleasurable, so long as people follow the rules. Many lives have been completely wrecked by not heeding God's directives in this rather important aspect. The spirtual penalties for (continuous) sexual sin are outlined quite clearly in the Bible.

JensJohansson wrote:Here you guys are talking about Stryper and i bring up Stephen Pearcy (Ratt's Zinger.. bada bish)

I often wonder just how America actually survived the glam-metal era. The sad by-product of that led to mainstream acceptance of grunge, which drove Kurt Cobain to suicide, and in turn pushed metal back underground in America where it remains to this very day.

One person that came to mind- that never ceases to amaze me, was the Dutch woman Corrie Ten Boom, the author of "the Hiding Place". She risked her life to hide Jewish people during WWII, and was imprisoned for it. Years later, I can still recall seeing pictures of her, well into her eighties, and she had that unmistakable glow and aura about her that, at least for me, showed an incredibly strong indwelling of the Holy Spirit, despite what she'd been through, such as the loss of family, including her beloved sister, Betsie Ten Boom. Her books were amazing!

JensJohansson wrote:You call it "Holy Spirit", I call it a healthy dose of Sticking-it-to-the-man-itis and having giant size balls of steel.. maybe they sometimes are the same thing.

Christians believe that the Holy Spirit gives believers great strength, and the ability to do what would otherwise be impossible for us mere mortals. She was certainly an amazing person!

Stryper were a great band, imho, although a more contemporary example of a Christian metal band that sounds much less dated would be Harmony from, (gasp!), of all places, Sweden!

http://www.myspace.com/harmonyofficial

JensJohansson wrote:There's also Narnia, friends of mine. Really good music too.

I've heard of Narnia, but have not actually heard the music- yet. I'll definitely have to check them out, and I really like the influence of C.S. Lewis reflected in their name! Thanks for the tip! =)

Stratovarius321000 · Post by **Stratovarius321000** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:05 am

Vision Divine and Stryper are Christian metal bands. :)

Carcass · Post by **Carcass** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:41 am

http://www.myspace.com/callistochaos

Another good Christian band. Probably not the cup of tea for power metal fans, but they are really good at what they do.

Several members of the band and the producer went to the same high school as me.

Ragehead91 · Post by **Ragehead91** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:03 am

I think none of you really likes them and I don't like them to, but as far as I know "As I lay Dying" is a Christian Metal Band.

Lurdi · Post by **Lurdi** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:20 am

JensJohansson wrote: As an aside (and this is an honest question), does it say in the bible anywhere that condoms should not be used? Or is mr. Ratzinger speaking out of turns?

It is not literally said in the Bible, but it says that men are not allowed to throw their semen on the ground, that is sinful.You are only supposed to have sexual intercourse when procreating. So in their opinion condoms are useless since if you are not going to procreate, what do you want them for since you are neither allowed to have sexual intercourse just for pleasure?
They always try to disguise their orders. They say: ''No no, you don't have to take things so literally. It's just an interpretation, it's a way to explain people things in the best way for them to understand.''
And at mass you can also perceive this dictatorship. The preacher gives his speech and everybody nods. What if I went to mass and raised my hand and asked''Sorry, I don't understand this passage, can you explain me why this is so and so?Or I don't agree with that, can we discuss a bit about it? No, you have no option to discuss anything, people are speechless.
One of the latest news is that they want to celebrate mass in Latin. In Latin!!! Of course the less you know, the better. How can people doubt about anything if they don't understand what are being told? You can never doubt, it is completely forbidden.
By the way, there is a very good film called The Doubt that talks about it.

RazielSR · Post by **RazielSR** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:35 am

If you want to understand why Christianity is here to control people and why churches were build, you have to understand the period when Christianity becomes a political weapon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_I and that kind of Christianity is the one we are having. And have nothing to do with the real purpose and origins. This man was the best politician ever.

EDIT: Laestadianism is a branch of Lutheranism, which is a branch of Christianity. I mean, it's another way to see/make/control the same. I know it's necessary to many people, but I'm toooo tired of all that kind of beliefs.

icecab21 · Post by **icecab21** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:15 am

Where I live there are churches on all sorts of areas of the political and cultural spectrums

Post by **JensJohansson** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:39 pm

Ragehead91 wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2cmdfoy0v4

Well, of course, when the Chistianity train collided with the Science train, there is a ten kilometer long trail of wreckage.

You have to remember that the Christian bible and other old texts like that tried to explain everything -- but those Gods (an explainations) were Gods (and explainations) of the gaps .

Many of the old gaps are gone now but some people doggedly maintain that Science is wrong and Doctrine is right. This I see as the fundamental difficulty, and the fundamental reason why I am not a Christian. I simply cannot swallow the inconsistencies. I'm old enough not to try to convert other people into this view though. Let people believe what they want, I say..

I'm more interested in what gaps I am myself filling in at this very moment, without even realizing it.

Freudian psychology talks about the id. Well, where in the brain is it? Millions of brains have been dissected. No id was ever found. We just don't have the tools to even make hypotheses about the human mind. It's the same as with a computer. If you have a really important file on your hard drive, is it really there? You can't see it with your own eyes, nor touch it. You could claim that with a heaping teaspoon of reductionism you can trace what this "file" actually is, back thru layers of computer science, electronics, chemistry, and lastly quantum physics. But how many people on Earth actually understand quantum physics?

Also you may ask yourself which other intangible and invisible things you talk about, refer to, trust, rely on, etc in your daily life, that you would be very upset if someone told you they didn't exist.

Some examples of things you cannot see or touch except in an indirect way: language, thought, love, justice, law, beauty, belief, value, trust, friendship.

Especially the "trust" and "value" things are interesting now in this global economic crisis.

I daresay today's economists know a lot less about the underlying mechanisms than whoever wrote any allegories about snakes and apples. Remember that "credit" is related to the word "credo" (I believe). Can you touch credit? Where did it go? Yet this "Credit" has been on the front page of magazines now for two years.

And of course, if you went to your bank and its computer told you your account was empty, you would not be satisfied with the answer "Well, it was just a bit pattern on a hard drive anyway. Please just leave. What use was a bit pattern for you? You can't eat a bit pattern."

And even if the bank made a funny video about crazy people complaining about quantum physics and bit patterns they can't eat and you realized they were 100% right, I think you'd still be pretty pissed off.

Post by **JensJohansson** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:50 pm

miditek wrote:But the fear of God isn't always needed to collect taxes- most governments do a pretty good job of instilling fear of what happens if people don't pay taxes.

In Sweden the church structures are gone now. But they were boot-strapped into government agencies over the centuries. There was never even a whiff of this in the US, which is quite nice!

The Pharisees tried to trick Christ at the (second) temple by asking Him if it was lawful to pay taxes, to which He replied, "Render to Casear what is Caesar's and render to God what is God's", meaning that citizens were responsible for paying attention to the law of the land by paying their taxes, but also were responsible to God's law by paying their tithe (10%- a bargain, if you ask me, considering what the government takes out of paychecks every week!).

I think clearly in Sweden in the old days the king commingled the tithe and any other taxes. In a way, that was what the entire 30 years war was about. "Hey, we need that money too!"

It's also important to note that if the goverment or officials in the church misuse what funds the people provide, God will deal with them- that is certain.

I have a lot of faith in my fellow man also doing the right down here on Earth, somehow. And more importantly, the funny thing!

In a way this discussion of executive bonuses nowadays is delicious. I thought that US idea of a 90% tax for huge bonuses to beneficiaries of government aid was pretty funny :)

Modern style latex condoms, of course, didn't exist in Biblical times, but in over thirty five years of reading the Bible, I've never seen anything in it that stipulates that sex is strictly for procreation. In fact, the Bible actually teaches that people (married couples, of course!) are supposed to derive pleasure from sex inside the covenant of marriage, and that this is a gift from God.

I will definitely take your word for this..

You have to understand that Christianity is such an amorphous constellation of various branches, that very often when people take a strong anti-Christian position they do it because of things the Catholic church has done (sometimes hundreds of years in the past too).

It's a bit similar to when people take a strong anti-Moslem position based on a group of political islamists' acts.

RazielSR · Post by **RazielSR** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:50 pm

JensJohansson wrote: It's amazing how that map traces back to the thirty years' war, and the distribution that time of losers and other losers (there were no winners ...)

Hey, you mentioned one of my "favourites" conflicts. It's amazing to analyze that 30 years and how influential was for Europe:

NeonVomit · Post by **NeonVomit** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 3:11 pm

Lurdi wrote:
JensJohansson wrote: As an aside (and this is an honest question), does it say in the bible anywhere that condoms should not be used? Or is mr. Ratzinger speaking out of turns?
It is not literally said in the Bible, but it says that men are not allowed to throw their semen on the ground, that is sinful.

So I've been damned to hell since I was 13... very interesting. I wonder how that one came about. I mean, I know the story in the bible, but I wonder why it was deemed such an important issue.

Mormegil · Post by **Mormegil** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 3:39 pm

JensJohansson wrote:http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/200 ... l-worship/

This article definitely made me shed some blue&white tears while the national anthem was playing in my head (metal version of it of course).
Few weeks back I had a chance to visit one of these metal masses, but I guess I was too scared that an infidel like me would melt once I entered the House of God.

I heard it was great though.

icecab21 · Post by **icecab21** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:05 pm

I have not looked this over so much, but I think the only evidence necessary would be of a historical Christ’s resurrection and that many of the stories of the bible are just that, stories and metaphor. I think a lot of peoples Christian interpretations are not very Jesus like, I’m sure in turn that they think my interpretations are more Jesus like, or it was really never about Jesus for them in the first place. No matter what, I think religion has very interesting aspects of salesmanship.

hiro23 · Post by **hiro23** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:26 pm

Everyone has their own belief system, their own set of values which they cherish.
Some people believe it's easier to accept the existance of an afterlife and some people think it's easier to accept that there is no afterlife.

Nobody is right when it comes to this, it's all about what your opinion is, cause in the end one man's facts is another man's little white lie.

Science hasn't proven everything and religion hasn't proven everything, so in this respect you just need to make your own judgements, however I still think each person's belief or non-belief should be respected.

Just because one christian person or one atheist person has been horrible to you does not mean they are all that way.

As far as music goes most people seem to write what's in their hearts anyways, some like to sing about god and some like to sing about the great people in their life, hell some even sing about the bad things in their life as it helps as sort of a screaming therapy.

Miditek:it wasn't kurt cobain who drove metal underground it was because of the self indulging of the glam bands, they lost track of what was important their fans,so in effect grunge took center stage for awhile.
Kurt Cobain never wanted to kill metal or rock music he just changed it a bit, he was a big fan of the beatles and Black Sabbath.
Actually the last 12 years I've seen a resurgence of metal here in the states, most everyone I know listens to it, the only ones who don't are the extremely fanatical religious people.

icecab21 · Post by **icecab21** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:59 pm

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