Health Care in America

[NeverendingAbyss]

So I know that some people have been incredibly concerned with this "change". Rumors and facts all mixed up filled with ludicrous judgments. If you live in the USA, what's your point of view? If you are in another nation, does your gov't provide health care to civilians? How?

[Ragehead91]

Nevermind. I was to stupid to translate properly.

[Mormegil]

Health-care is socialised pretty much everywhere in Europe and it's undoubtably better for the poor and for those who can't afford expensive health-insurances.

However...

This would of course mean that people with healthy life-styles would have to pay for the treatment of those who don't really care about how they live, which does make the system a bit unfair.
I've also heard many Americans argue that the reason why they come up with more medical innovations than Europe (don't know if this is actually true) is because heathcare there is privatized.

I understand why many Americans detest everything even remotely close to socialism, but personally I'm happy that healthcare (like police and fire brigade) is socialised in my country. I think it's wastly superior system, even if it means a little higher taxes. But of course Americans can do whatever the hell they want with their own country, just sharing my thoughts here.

[Stealth]

I understand why many Americans detest everything even remotely close to socialism

I don't.

I'm happy that healthcare (like police and fire brigade) is socialised in my country. I think it's vastly superior system

I think so too.

EDIT: I sense a slight disagreement with miditek will become apparent soon enough.

[browneyedgirl]

I am not the richest person in the world, so YEAH I am for the Obama health care plan.

Good insurance in USA will cost hundreds of dollars a month, and even the good insurance will not pay everything. So, if a person has a hospital bill of $10,000 dollars(stubbing his toe ) he will most likely still have to pay 2 or 3 thousand out of his/her own pocket. And, dont forget that deductable!!!!

you hear all the time about people delaying a doctor visit until its too late because they know the costs are so high.Then, ironically, the person winds up losing everything anyway, including their life. And, its true. In the USA if a person cannot pay the hospital bills the persons possessions(if they have any....cars, land, house) can be confiscated to pay the difference.

[NeverendingAbyss]

Watch this episode from The Daily Show. It talks about health care and its outrageous moments (first 15 minutes)

http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episod ... s-brinkley

[NeonVomit]

Socialised healthcare works as well as it does in Europe. It's not perfect, but if you're unable to afford private healthcare, you don't feel as if it's the end of the world if something goes wrong.

I don't know how well a similar system would work in the US, given that we're talking about a population of 300+ million, as opposed to around 20 million which is the average population of an EU country. Maybe if it was done at a state level?

[browneyedgirl]

People who are really poor usually qualify for Medicade, and there are government funded charity programs at most hospitals that will pay part, or all of a persons bill IF they ask, and qualify.

Then, there are the blue blooded people, the people with government jobs, or people lucky enough to have a job with good insurance programs. These people will usually have faith that they will receive good healthcare at reasonable cost.

Actually, its the people who fall in the middle of these catagories that NEED the Obama healthcare plan.
The millions of people who are making too much money for Federal aid, yet do not make enough to buy good insurance that covers their ass adequately are the ones who truly need the help!

I do not understand these goddamn grumps who are raising so much fucking Hell against this program. They must be independently wealthy, in the entertainment industry, have a secure government job, be by profession a goddamn lawyer, doctor, or some shit like that. What the hell are these self righteous Christian people doing who are hollering about socialism for? WTF is that about? When these people complaining about socialism get really sick and then lose everything they have to some hospital, or blueblooded doctor(to pay his med school loans)then, maybe these pricks will beg for something to keep them off the street after the doctors have stripped them naked! Literally.

A person can take care of their health and do all the right thing, and STILL they can get sick, or maybe walk to the mailbox and get hit by a car, or have an accident at work. Life is not predictable and sometimes insurance DOES NOT cover all the bases. Thats called REALITY.

Yes, I think each state could take care of this, but I do not know about rationing the funds. After all, some states are going in the hole financially as we speak, and then, the richer states who could and would do this program will expect a population increase as people move there to get the benefits.

[Tero-75]

How much does an average billpayer pay taxes from his paycheck in States?

[NeonVomit]

Yes, I think each state could take care of this, but I do not know about rationing the funds. After all, some states are going in the hole financially as we speak, and then, the richer states who could and would do this program will expect a population increase as people move there to get the benefits.

Yeah, actually forget that. Some states are way richer than others and indeed there would be a lot of nonsense springing up about being registered in one state, living in another, etc.

[browneyedgirl]

How much does an average billpayer pay taxes from his paycheck in States?

Well, usually the more a person makes(salary)the more income taxes he has to pay.

BTW, I just watched the News@Noon on TV, and Obama is backing off the more extreme proposals of this healthcare bill. I guess he got sick&tired of defending his bill over and over and over to the hardheaded "anti-socialism" crowd. If it had of been me, I would have told these fanatics to take their antisocialism bullshit and stick it up their goddamn ass. I guess I would have gotten a bullet in the head but I would have told these blueblooded Obama haters what I think.

[Beast_Pete]

This would of course mean that people with healthy life-styles would have to pay for the treatment of those who don't really care about how they live, which does make the system a bit unfair.

That's not a good way to approach this issue. A lot of people have weaker genes or have strsssful jobs. Would you call them careless and having an unhealthy life-style on purpose? I'm sure some of them would be happy to change the direction of their life, but it's not that easy. Especially if noone helps them ever.

[kikotr88]

usa is not america!!

[Mormegil]

This would of course mean that people with healthy life-styles would have to pay for the treatment of those who don't really care about how they live, which does make the system a bit unfair.

That's not a good way to approach this issue. A lot of people have weaker genes or have strsssful jobs. Would you call them careless and having an unhealthy life-style on purpose? I'm sure some of them would be happy to change the direction of their life, but it's not that easy. Especially if noone helps them ever.

I should have clarified my post a bit:
That wasn't really my opinion, but a common argument I've heard people use, when objecting government-provided healthcare. I agree with you and as you can see from the rest of my post, I'm all for socialised healthcare. With all its flaws (no man-made system is perfect).

I understand why many Americans detest everything even remotely close to socialism

I don't.

I can understand why especially many older generations who grew up during Cold War have very black-and-white perspective on these things.

[Beast_Pete]

No worries. I read the rest of your post, too.

[STINKY_PREGNANT_MAN]

YES YES, THE CARE OF THE HEALTH (CAREHEALTH) IS VERY CRITICAL PROCESS FOR THE AMERICA!! I HAVE MANY VENEREAL DISEASES AND EVERYONE ELSE SHOULD SHOULDER MY DEBT!

DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY BABIES I HAVE?!
DO YOU?
NO, ITS NOT A RHETORICAL QUESTION. I REALLY WANT TO KNOW! I'VE LOST COUNT AND SUSPECT I'M MISSING A FEW.

KISSES!!!
-STINKY

[miditek]

Socialised healthcare works as well as it does in Europe. It's not perfect, but if you're unable to afford private healthcare, you don't feel as if it's the end of the world if something goes wrong.

I don't know how well a similar system would work in the US, given that we're talking about a population of 300+ million, as opposed to around 20 million which is the average population of an EU country. Maybe if it was done at a state level?

We already have elements of socialized medicine here in the States;

- Medicaid, for people that cannot afford regular
insurance.

- Medicare, kicks in when you turn 65 years of age.

Also, socialized medicine has also been done at the state level, there is Georgia Medicaid, Georgia Kids, as well as a really stinking bureaucratic nightmare called TennCare, which nearly bankrupted the state.

TennCare kicked out an older neighbor of mine (in her sixties and retired, but not quite sixty-five) as she was deemed as too high of a risk. She nearly lost her leg due to circulatory problems, but there was one doctor- an angel as far as I am concerned, that would not give up on her, and accepted payment based on her family's ability to pay, and then he wrote off the rest.

When the neighbors called TennCare to get an explanation, they had to navigate menus to press 1 for English (which they never answered), press 2 for Spanish, press 3 for Urdu, press 4 for Vietnamese, press 5 for Somalian, and press 6 for Arabic- these are real menu options folks, and for people that are not even citizens of the United States- but they got priority over Rhonda's case. Period.

I can speak with at least some authority on this topic because I was self-employed for several years, I built computer networks and installed/supported billing systems for physicians and medium sized medical groups as a core business offering.

TennCare was too stupid to even process their own claims, so they outsourced payment processing (at least for behavioral health) to an equally incompetent group- United Healthcare. Claims are constantly rejected, and even when processed with an approval number, getting them to pay the doctors for services rendered is an even bigger nightmare. United was trying to start a trend that psychiatric care wasn't "real" medicine, but had no problem paying smaller fees to quacks like chiropractors!

I worked on a Y2K remediation team at CIGNA, and one of the bigger projects was patching several hundred workstations in the IT department's programming group with some rather complex deployment scripts. PROCLAIM was the internal claims management and processing system, and as I was patching systems there, I noticed hundreds and hundreds of work orders taped to the walls of worker's spaces in these giant cube farms.

What did these work orders consist of? Well, most companies spend big bucks on their IT infrastructures to make their businesses more efficient, to cut costs, and to provide higher levels of service to their customers. This was the complete opposite- a typical work order here was for a programmer to write code that would, for example:

"If a range of claims runs from 10,000-12,001 AND
meets procedure codes 122.2, 125.1, 121.0, and
120.0, AND were submitted from the dates of 5/1/99
through 5/30/99 (two digit years, heh heh), THEN
DELAY the claims for 90 days, (run them through
the system) and DENY the claims for various
"Denied due to timely filing", "Denied due to pre
existing conditions", etc. and so on. "

And there were HUNDREDS and HUNDREDS of work orders
like this. These programmers were literally being paid to not make the system more efficient, but it is a concept that I call institutionalized bureaucracy, and on an industrial scale, with the full weight of an incredibly large array of IBM mainframes, minis, and PC Servers with enough computing power to run a small country!


When I was a kid and got sick, we went to the doctor's office, and typically paid $25-$35 per visit. The waiting room was always packed with sick kids and cranky parents. The doctors rarely, if ever, even accepted insurance then, yet they still lived in the most exclusive neighborhoods, and drove rather expensive cars. They didn't turn people away, and would work with families in need on payment arrangements.

That was before the insurance and pharmacetical companies moved in and screwed everything up. This was before the lawyers started getting rich chasing ambulances and putting the screws to insurance companies, and in the days before your mom's friendly neighborhood OB-GYN started having to pay upwards of $250k per year per partner per practice in malpractice insurance premiums.

This was before doctors had to deal with people that don't want to work, are too stupid to learn the electronic billing systems despite hours of training, and never make collection calls, or follow-up on rejected claims.

But they certainly know how to play on MySpace and Facebook all day long, pay their bills on-line, and download untold amounts of viruses and spyware into the practice's network while being rude and capricious to patients on the phone, pocketing the co-pays when the doctor is not looking, and setting up fake bank accounts in the doctor's name- forging his signature on checks- depositing the checks into the shell account, and ripping his practice off for thousands and thousands of dollars- all of this WHILE being rude and capricious to the patients, many of whom are longtime patrons on the practice in question!

This was before organized crime groups started getting involved in Medicaid and Medicare scams, and screwing the government out of billions of dollars per year, with bureaucrats too stupid to put two and two together and getting paid six figures to be essentially worthless paperweights taking up space at a desk in offices decorated like the Taj Mahal!

This was before the hospitals started gouging the insurance companies, before countries that have SOCIALIZED medicine TOLD the drug companies what they would be ALLOWED to charge- and guess who makes up the difference?

If you said US consumers, then move to the front of the class.

So in a nutshell, at the present time, you basically have a choice between a crooked MBA (who by the way is more worried about his bonus than your health) denying your claims, -or a crooked government bureaucrat that could care even less about your health (especially if you are an American to begin with, and God help you if you're white) that just can't wait to outsource your insurance processing to the crooked MBA at the lowest bidding insurance company that is going to get yet another bonus if he's able to land the next contract with the crooked bureaucrat (who he will undoubtedly grease/bribe in the process- in order to secure the contract)

Personally, I would prefer a single layer of bureaucracy with the insurance companies- as reviling as they are, they are still a slightly lesser evil than the government being the customer, which gives you two customers separating the patient from the doctor (first the government then the insurance company), but that's just my opinion.

Obama can't even fix the post office, which is a fairly simple service- he can't fix Detroit- everyone took their cash for clunker goodies and went and bought Toyotas and Hondas, his $1+ trillion stimulus plan has only made the economy worse, and now The Chimp-in-Chief would have people believe that he can somehow magically fix a system that is so utterly vast and complex, he can't even begin to comprehend the business processes behind it- let alone try to "fix" them.

I'd love to speak with him during a town hall meeting- one on one, with no teleprompter and with no wire in his ear for answers by his handlers, and within ten miniutes, he would be exposed as someone that really has no clue what he's talking about when it comes to health care reform.

Tort reform- jerking the ambulance chasing trial lawyers in line, would go a long, long, way towards reducing the single biggest expense (and liability) that most doctors and hospitals have. Good luck with that- the demos are in the American Bar Association's pocket, and that will never ever happen.

Deport ALL of the illegals that are flooding our emergency rooms- if they can't pay $100 for a visit (but won't pay their taxes, and still get welfare and food stamps) to the local doctor's office when the kid gets sick, then tough shit- go home to your country with socialized medicine and its grand ideals. If a 25 year old bartender can afford insurance, but would rather buy an ounce of pot a week and drink up the rest, then it's really not my problem. Hate your career- then get another job doing something else that has better insurance. Drop the attitude, because I don't owe you or some welfare queen with eight kids jack shit.

Widespread EMR implementation- and tax write-offs for successful (not aborted) implementations would also help, but there are no standards for data interchange and exchange, and those would also need to be worked out.

Repealing the stupid and expensive HIPPA regulations would also help- all it did was provide a boom to the medical tech sector, and of course, lined the pockets of senators and congressmen that helped to pass that nefarious legislation.

This is far too complex for one post, but hopefully these "Cliff's Notes" will give everyone at least a glimpse into a system that is complex beyond the imagination of most- and always remember the old adage- "If you want somehthing done right, do it yourself; if you want it screwed up beyond all recognition, then leave it to Congress." - just take a look at our stupid, patchworked tax code- all 30,000+ regulations, rules, and loopholes- do you think that it is fair and equitable?

No one understands it, just like Congress and Obama are among the most spectacularly stupid people in existence. It's not about equity, it's not about health- it's about control- and I can see right through their little charade.

If they want a civil war, then so be it- and it's starting to look like that gray panthers/retirees (ex-AARP members that burned their cards at the Town Hall meetings) will be the ones that fired the second shot heard 'round the world.

[browneyedgirl]

This is kinda offtopic, but when did a couple of regular strength tylenol start costing 8 bucks?hats how much a hospital charges for them.

My Mom just spent a horrid 6 months in the hospital, went through 3 major surguries, and spent a month in a nursing home rehabilitating and learning to walk again. My Dad did not even want to know the bill, he just told the hospital to let Medicaid and Medicare take care of it, and the rest my parents will make monthly payments for as long as they both live. I have lost my inheritance because their estate is going to the hospital after their deaths. The bill was millions of dollars if they had of had to pay out of pocket.
Mom beat cancer in the mid 90s, and it came back with a vengeance. She had the Whipple procedure done, and all seemed OK, then she got infected inside and had to have part of her colon removed. Well, she still could not fight the infection and almost died. Finally, her whole colon had to be removed before she finally started recovering. Actually I dont know how she even lived through all that, she is 73 years old. Part of the time she was so sick she was delerious crying for Devan, and Vic, her babies she called them. It was such a sad time, and during such times people should not have to worry if they are going to be tossed on the street if they cannot pay their doctor and hospital bills.

[NeverendingAbyss]

First and foremost, let me say that I lament those moments of moroseness you had to go through, BEG. I give you my greatest sympathy
Secondly, hospitals are businesses. They can charge anything at whichever price they desire. I remember reading an article about a hospital in Florida (name omitted) which, the patient's parent bill, included $35 for a "cough support device". It was later discovered that this tool was actually a teddy bear to mitigate the child's coughing.
So, before you walk out of the hospital, make sure you understand your bill and peruse it really attentively.


If you want to learn more about not getting ripped-off, I recommend you read "Fight for your Money" by David Bach.

[browneyedgirl]

First and foremost, let me say that I lament those moments of moroseness you had to go through, BEG. I give you my greatest sympathy

Thank you, thats nice. Thats why these days I dont have much patience with people complaining about shallow nonsense. Reality will do that to you. Enjoy life while you can. And, love people who can and do love you, not mists in the wind.

Secondly, hospitals are businesses. They can charge anything at whichever price they desire. I remember reading an article about a hospital in Florida (name omitted) which, the patient's parent bill, included $35 for a "cough support device". It was later discovered that this tool was actually a teddy bear to mitigate the child's coughing.
So, before you walk out of the hospital, make sure you understand your bill and peruse it really attentively.

Yes, pages and pages of bills! Really sad, actually.

If you want to learn more about not getting ripped-off, I recommend you read "Fight for your Money" by David Bach.

Thanks for that tip. Its a shame people are sorry enough to rip people off in the first place, but love of money is the root of all evil. Actually, that little scripture tends to be true, and people find that out soon enough in life. >sigh<

[miditek]

Beg- I am terribly sorry to hear about your mom, and the expenses that were involved.

My grandfather literally died in my arms several years ago, but once we found out that his cancer was terminal, he decided that he wanted to spend his last days at home, under the care of Hospice- who by the way, were some of the very best health care professionals that I've ever seen. It's a tough job, but they were awesome, and my grandfather really liked them as well.

There is actually a fairly simple reason why hospital bills can be so exhorbitant- and it's called indigent care. One of the really big reasons why costs are so expensive is due to the fact that there are many people that simply cannot pay.

And that is another reason why I disagree with the Obama administration- he lacks even the most rudimentary business knowledge that someone is going to pay for health care, and that someone is typically patients that do have insurance and do have money to make up for the co-pays, and other expenses.

Regardless of which angle you view it, someone has to pay. From the doctor that wrote off a great deal of my neighbor's surgery bills, to the hospitals that collectively write off billions of dollars per year in bad debt all the way to patients that pay high insurance premiums, there is no free lunch here. Simply reassigning someone else's debt does not make that debt go away.

Now for general and even comprehensive care, many doctors will actually work with the patients not only on payments, but many will negotiate the fees if you are paying cash or by other means. It pays to do some reasearch into finding out what Medicare and Blue Cross will actually pay for a given procedure, and then you've made the first step towards having a negotiation tool with the doctor.

I have a friend that is a dentist that does not even accept insurance any more (although his office will file the claims by request). What he essentially did is calculated just how much it was costing him in time, additional staff, and a number of other variables and simply modified his fee schedules based upon what Blue Cross was actually willing to pay on major dental plans. This typically meant a much more reasonable bill for the patient, and of course, he would still work with them to make financial arrangements on larger procedures- like a root canal.

No more fighting with the insurance company, no more copays, no more collection calls, and it has worked rather well for him. It's not perfect, but I'm pleased that he's been able to cut out the middleman-the crooked insurance companies, and now actually has more time to focus on his patients.

[NeonVomit]

Ok, but what happens if you have like, NO money? Should you just be left to die because you can't pay?

[browneyedgirl]

Another thing, life is so unpredictable. My Mom literally got sick in a matter of a few hours.
In other cases, accidents can happen in the blink of an eye. Somehow, we must be prepared for the what ifs that invariably will occur in life.

@NeonVomit, I hate to say it but there are assholes in the world that actually think what you said. Some folks actually think that medical care should be given in relation to ability to pay.

Its a cruel world indeed.

[miditek]

I don't know the specifics of your mom's case beg, but I do know from experience with several family members of my own that cancer takes longer than a few hours to develop.

My grandfather had pollyps in his colon that they did not catch in time, and it spread to his liver. The same thing killed his younger brother, but these were not very quick cases.

The most rapidly spreading cancer type is advanced melanoma, which can cause death within three months, and yet melanoma is one of the most treatable forms of cancer if caught in time.

Erlanger is the largest hospital in my area, and they cannot turn anyone away due to a lack of insurance. However, I do have a problem with free health care for illegal aliens as well as irresponsible parents that continue to have kids at the expense of the state.

I also have a problem with people that can afford insurance- and yet elect not to purchase it. It is expensive, but the alternative is worse.

I get tired of seeing welfare queens driving $60k Escalades and expecting me to pay for their food stamps and healthcare.


In the U.S. most if not all get coverage from the employer.- it's not perfect but is still better than rationing.

[browneyedgirl]

I think if a woman on welfare is driving an expensive car it must be her boyfriends because the way the welfare thing is set up the limit the system allows on car ownership is $2,000 to $3,000. Of course, there have been a few welfare fraud cases where women have gotten away with stuff like that(owning expensive cars) but in reality, these days welfare fraud is very hard to pull off. I do agree with the illegal alien scenario though. These people are often given free hospital care before American citizens.
It used to be hospitals were REQUIRED by law to give even homeless people minimum care which consists of bed, meals, and injections if needed. I guess that still is in place.

Yes, my Mom did get sick that quickly. The cancer she had did not give her any symptoms until one night she woke with severe stomach pains. Dad thought it was gallstones, so he rushed her to the hospital. She was given an ultrasound, and other tests and it was revealed she had cancer of the bile duct leading to her pancreas. A very rare form of cancer that strikes only a few hundred people a year. Anyway, yeah, she did get sick that quickly. I mean, showing the symptoms.

[NeonVomit]

Erlanger is the largest hospital in my area, and they cannot turn anyone away due to a lack of insurance. However, I do have a problem with free health care for illegal aliens as well as irresponsible parents that continue to have kids at the expense of the state.

I also have a problem with people that can afford insurance- and yet elect not to purchase it. It is expensive, but the alternative is worse.

I get tired of seeing welfare queens driving $60k Escalades and expecting me to pay for their food stamps and healthcare.


In the U.S. most if not all get coverage from the employer.- it's not perfect but is still better than rationing.

Ok most people do get coverage from their employers, but if something really serious happens it's not going to be adequate.

The system needs changing, I don't think anyone can argue that, but in what ways?

[miditek]

Erlanger is the largest hospital in my area, and they cannot turn anyone away due to a lack of insurance. However, I do have a problem with free health care for illegal aliens as well as irresponsible parents that continue to have kids at the expense of the state.

I also have a problem with people that can afford insurance- and yet elect not to purchase it. It is expensive, but the alternative is worse.

I get tired of seeing welfare queens driving $60k Escalades and expecting me to pay for their food stamps and healthcare.


In the U.S. most if not all get coverage from the employer.- it's not perfect but is still better than rationing.

[Ok most people do get coverage from their employers, but if something really serious happens it's not going to be adequate.

Well, many employers offer additional benefits, albeit at an added cost- our group plan at the office has a catastrophic illness option, and it's not too much more to obtain. I can check the prices and post this later, for comparative purposes.

The system needs changing, I don't think anyone can argue that, but in what ways?

You might want to recheck some of my suggestions in the previous posts. Tort reform should be at the top of the list- there are more lawyers than there are doctors in this country.

Tort reform, coupled with malpractice reform- if the insurance industry's liability is lowered, then they should be given an incentive from regulatory authorties, such as each state's Insurance Commission to lower the premiums down to something more realistic, like $50,000 per year, as opposed to $250,000 per year.

Insurance company gouging of physician's payments for services rendered and insurance companies charging extremely high malpractice premiums are causing many primary care (family doctor) physicians to get out of the business altogther. This tightens the supply, without providing any relief for existing and increasing demand, and thus, fees for doctor visits (and waiting times in the waiting rooms) obviously will increase.

Killing about half of the corporate ambulance chasing attorneys would be a good start, but I suppose that we'll have to settle for tort reform for now.

There are many other ways to bring the costs down, and I'll recap some of my previous suggestions later.

[NeonVomit]

Intersting article:

Health Care Debate Based on Total Lack of Logic

Jeanna Bryner
Senior Writer
LiveScience.com jeanna Bryner
senior Writer
livescience.com – Wed Aug 26, 8:35 am ET
Heated partisan debate over President Obama's health care plan, erupting at town hall meetings and in the blogosphere, has more to do with our illogical thought processes than reality, sociologists are finding.


The problem: People on both sides of the political aisle often work backward from a firm conclusion to find supporting facts, rather than letting evidence inform their views.


The result: A survey out this week finds voters split strongly along party lines regarding their beliefs about key parts of the plan. Example: About 91 percent of Republicans think the proposal would increase wait times for surgeries and other health services, while only 37 percent of Democrats think so.


Irrational thinking


A totally rational person would lay out - and evaluate objectively - the pros and cons of a health care overhaul before choosing to support or oppose a plan. But we humans are not so rational, according to Steve Hoffman, a visiting professor of sociology at the University of Buffalo.


"People get deeply attached to their beliefs," Hoffman said. "We form emotional attachments that get wrapped up in our personal identity and sense of morality, irrespective of the facts of the matter."


And to keep our sense of personal and social identity, Hoffman said, we tend to use a backward type of reasoning in order to justify such beliefs.


Similarly, past research by Dolores Albarracin, a psychology professor at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, has shown in particular that people who are less confident in their beliefs are more reluctant than others to seek out opposing perspectives. So these people avoid counter evidence all together. The same could apply to the health care debate, Albarracin said.


"Even if you have free press, freedom of speech, it doesn't make people listen to all points of view," she said.


Just about everybody is vulnerable to the phenomenon of holding onto our beliefs even in the face of iron-clad evidence to the contrary, Hoffman said. Why? Because it's hard to do otherwise. "It's an amazing challenge to constantly break out the Nietzschean hammer and destroy your world view and belief system and evaluate others," Hoffman said.


Just the facts you need


Hoffman's idea is based on a study he and colleagues did of nearly 50 participants, who were all Republican and reported believing in the link between the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks and Saddam Hussein. Participants were given the mounting evidence that no link existed and then asked to justify their belief.


(The findings should apply to any political bent. "We're not making the claim that Democratic or liberal partisans don't do the same thing. They do," Hoffman said.)


All but one held onto the belief, using a variety of so-called motivated reasoning strategies. "Motivated reasoning is essentially starting with a conclusion you hope to reach and then selectively evaluating evidence in order to reach that conclusion," explained Hoffman's colleague, sociologist Andrew Perrin of the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill.


For instance, some participants used a backward chain of reasoning in which the individual supported the decision to go to war and so assumed any evidence necessary to support that decision, including the link between 9/11 and Hussein.


"For these voters, the sheer fact that we were engaged in war led to a post-hoc search for a justification for that war," Hoffman said. "People were basically making up justifications for the fact that we were at war."


Their research is published in the most recent issue of the journal Sociological Inquiry.


Hot health care debate

The proposed health care plan has all the right ingredients for such wonky reasoning, the researchers say.

The issue is both complex (no single correct answer), emotionally charged and potentially history-changing, while debates often occur with like-minded peers in town hall settings. The result is staunch supporters and just-as-staunch critics who are sticking to their guns.

"The health care debate would be vulnerable to motivated reasoning, because it is, and has become, so highly emotionally and symbolically charged," Perrin said during a telephone interview, adding that images equating the plan with Nazi Germany illustrate the symbolic nature of the arguments.

In addition, the town hall settings make for even more rigid beliefs. That's because changing one's mind about a complex issue can rattle a person's sense of identity and sense of belonging within a community. If everyone around you is a neighbor or friend, you'd be less likely to change your opinion, the researchers say.

"In these one-shot town hall meetings, where you have an emotionally laden complex issue like health care, it's very likely you're going to get these ramped up emotionally laden debates. They're going to be hot debates," Hoffman told LiveScience.

Two-sided discussion

To bring the facts from both sides to the table, Hoffman suggests venues where a heterogeneous group of people can meet, those for and against the proposed health care system overhaul. And at least some of these gatherings should include just a handful of people. In groups of more than about six people, one or two members will tend to dominate the discussion, he said.

For either side, logical arguments might not be the key.

"I think strategically it's important that the Obama administration and advocates of a health care plan really pay attention to how people feel and the symbolism they are seeing, and not just the nuts and bolts of the policy," Perrin said. "People don't reason with pure facts and logic alone

Here's the link, but since it's written by a scientist it's probably a load of rubbish anyway since scientists don't know anything.

[CottonCandy]

Obama's US health care bill backed by House of Representative
http://refreshingnews9.blogspot.com/200 ... ed-by.html

It seems it passed........

Does this mean I can have that triple bypass if I need it?

[NeonVomit]

Still needs to go through the Senate.