Who is the devil, anyway?

[miditek]

With all of the trouble in the world today, it would appear that Mephistopheles and his minions have been working overtime, as of late. In your opinion, who best fits the description of the devil?

[stratohawk]

your options in this poll testify some good sense of humour. I was about to vote for miditek.

But I don't participate in this vote, cause I can't chose only one option. Evil in this world is the hatred, the unwillingness of people to forgive, it's greed for money and power. All those people you mentioned have something evil inside (I believe so concerning Ahmandinejad, though I still don't know much about him), or something "megalomaniac" (Kim Jong Il), or simply (to me it seems that way) extreme stupidity(GWB).
Or let me put it in other words: All these mentioned politicians are in some kind a "tool" of the devil, because they bring hatred, cruelty and/or disrespect into this world.

[stratohawk]

extreme stupidity(GWB)

Please explain to me why you think my president is extremely stupid.

he invaded Iraq without having any plan for the future and is now astonished about the fact that sciites and sunnites are smashing each other heads.
he annuled human rights and claims to put suspects into prisons where they have no contact to the rest of the world. and still he doesn't understand why large part of the Arab world hates the USA and the Western world.
he doesn't see any connection between the global dominance of the US and the contempt the poor countries (by the majority with muslim population) have against America.
He doesn't understand that one key to stabilization in middle east is to help solving the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians. We all now that the US HAS the possibility to solve it, or to help solving it. But this won't work by purely supporting Israel. He also has to deal with the Palestinian people.

All these things doesn't make him a bad or evil person, IMO it only is a sign of stupidity. He doesn't want to see, or is not able to see the facts.

I don't say other politicians are better. But for the most powerful nation in this world, I wish there'd be a more wise, moderate and "long-sighted" leader.

[stratohawk]

you seem to be a more reasonable guy to discuss with, so I at least want to write something back. Sorry, my English isn't the best, that's also one point why I don't feel comfortable arguing with others that talk it as mother tongue.

About the WMDs: Even Colin Powell admitted that his "proofs" in the UN security council were fakes. Nowadays it's clear that Bushs government has made up those proofs to have reasons for invading Iraq. For what? Because of the oil? Because he thought a democratic Iraq would give the US more influence in Middle East? Because he wanted to finish the mission of his father? I don't know... But one thing is clear: Hussein had NO WMDs, he was no threat to the US, he had no contact with terrorists (he was even afraid of them and saw them as threat for his regime). All reasons of Mr.Bush to invade the country.

About Guantanamo: Many of the guys that are arrested there have nothing to do with terrorism. But they have NO possibility to get a legal trial, as the human rights claim for EVERY person. Many of them are only there because they are SUSPECTED to have something to do with terrorists. WTF??? Some weeks ago a muslim German came back here, after four years in Guantanamo. He is innocent. I also blame our government to have done far too little effort to get him out earlier there.

I mean with global dominance that for other countries it seems like the US is acting arbitraritly or only in own interest. One day they support dictators in latin America or Asia (just as Saddam Hussein or the Taliban), on the next day they bomb them out of their country. Globalization is also an aggressive strike against many poor countries, and it's "driven" by the US (just as by other Western countries, like Germany). It's like the rich don't give a damn about the poor and only think about their own benefit.

Yes, Clinton tried to help solving the key conflict in Middle East. But Arafat was not willing to change anything. Of course it's complicated, I don't say it's easy to solve. But the US as the most powerful country in the world could send out a sign to the rest of the world by helping the Palestinian people more. THIS would be the hardest strikes against guys like Iran's President.

No, George Bush cannot be compared to Hitler, of course not. As I said, IMO he is simply stupid, not very intellecutal, maybe naive.

[browneyedgirl]

I believe the Biblical account of Lucifer but, I think that maybe the term "Devil" is largely the whole sweeping generality of Evil: violence, hatred, injustice, manipulation, maliciousness, stealng, lying, etc. etc.

As for Bush being the Devil, that seriously is a real silly idea Like those websites that say he is antichrist. Anyone who has studied the Bible knows Bush does not fit the profile of Devil or AntiChrist at all! And I am not even a Bush fan!

[stratohawk]

here's another point that proves GWBs short-sightedness: Even US secret services admit that the Iraq war helped that a new generation of extremists could grow up. The overall threat of terrorism has risen since this war.
I have an article about it, sorry again that it's only in German.
http://www.tagesschau.de/aktuell/meldun ... AB,00.html

[stratohawk]

(-if he would be willing to make up lies about WMD's to invade iraq, then why wouldn't he just plant some chemical weapons in a basement in Iraq and declare he found those WMD's?)

Hm, maybe because it would be the biggest scandal ever, when public would find out about it. Actually, I can't tell you. But I know what Colin Powell said, he said things like being "ashamed for lying about the truth" and stuff like that. GWB wanted that war, and he got it.

[Shurik]

Mahmud Hitlerojad is my vote ...

[stratohawk]

Mahmud Hitlerojad is my vote ...

what I wanted to say back on topic: people in history "closest" to devil were definitely Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, and maybe some other ones I don't know or just forgot.

[NeonVomit]

Kim Jong Il. World's number one threat. The man and entourage his lives like royalty, while his people suffer in unimaginable poverty, not knowing where their next meal would come from.

It is utterly tragic, especially when one sees what the Korean people are capable of by looking at the economic success story that is South Korea. The people of the two Koreas are not seperated by ethnic or religious differences, but purely political ones.

Kim Jong Il is undoubtedly the one person that I believe deserves to be lynched.

Miditek comes in a close second though

[MetalManiac]

Many of you seem to think George W. Bush is personally behind all this shit. But I see him as just a puppet. I think the true evil is the rotten goverment itself and the people behind it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6S1-VH_RVvQ
Check this out. Many of you will propably think, that Bush is as stupid as a boot. But I think that's the purpose. People start to think Bush is a moron and blame him for everything, when the people who are truly responsible can just do whatever they want behind our back.

[NeonVomit]

Many of you seem to think George W. Bush is personally behind all this shit. But I see him as just a puppet. I think the true evil is the rotten goverment itself and the people behind it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6S1-VH_RVvQ
Check this out. Many of you will propably think, that Bush is as stupid as a boot. But I think that's the purpose. People start to think Bush is a moron and blame him for everything, when the people who are truly responsible can just do whatever they want behind our back.

I have no quarrel with the American people. Sure, some of the ones I've met have been vapid fools (just like there are those in every single country) but most have been intelligent, fun-loving, friendly and warm hearted.

I believe however the government is rotten to the core. Both Democrats and Republicans. Absolute villians, the lot of them. When an election boils down to choosing the lesser of two evils, in a two-party system, something is not right.

[miditek]

Mahmud Hitlerojad is my vote ...

what I wanted to say back on topic: people in history "closest" to devil were definitely Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, and maybe some other ones I don't know or just forgot.

Voted for Lucifer, who is somewhat less than flattered, as he trails Bush slightly in the current poll.

I would also consider adding Mao to your list, Stratohawk.

[miditek]

Mahmud Hitlerojad is my vote ...

Ha-Satan's rabid pet pitbull, of all things.

[stratohawk]

Mahmud Hitlerojad is my vote ...

what I wanted to say back on topic: people in history "closest" to devil were definitely Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, and maybe some other ones I don't know or just forgot.

Voted for Lucifer, who is somewhat less than flattered, as he trails Bush slightly in the current poll.

I would also consider adding Mao to your list, Stratohawk.

that's right, Mao also perfectly fits into that list. Also Josef Mengele came to my mind, German KZ-doctor, who "experimented" with the prisoners. Reading about that today still makes me sick, it's so unbelievably perverse.

And after these notorious historic persons, there'd be an endless list of generals and soldiers that committed war-crimes (European invaders slaughtering Natives, soldiers in almost every war torturing, killing, raping civilians), entrepreneurs sucking out the last penny of poor countries, e.g. preventing that poor African countries can buy HIV-medicaments cheaper to help their dying people or making them dependent by selling them patented gen-manipulated seeds, "small" dictators like Castro, many European Crusaders, brutal invaders like the Japanese in China, every single terrorist killing innocent civilians (no matter if these are muslim extremists, radical left wings like the RAF in Germany, the ETA in spain, PKK in Turkey, and so on) ...

[neonlightchild]

the devil dwells in every woman around....believe me, girls are the devil istelf ....how cool

[htcdude]

Lucifer....not something to be joked with either IMO

[NeonVomit]

Lucifer....not something to be joked with either IMO

Why vote for Satan? The Devil Is A Loser And He Is My Bitch, after all

I don't believe that there is an actual entitiy of Satan. Evil lives in the hearts of all people. Just like you can't say there's an actual entity of AIDS or other diseases. But evil is not a disease, it's a natural part of the world (the whole "no light without darkness" thing) and evil is all relative in any case. What is 'evil'? Is there a universal classification of evil?

But anyway I digress, this is a topic for another thread, or even another forum.

[Jabi]

Yahweh.

[browneyedgirl]

Lucifer, Lightbringer, He was once Gods favorite Angel, beautiful&pure before he got jealous&tried to take over God's place.(Joaquin Phoenix played him in a movie, btw-TheProphecy3, I think) Yes, there was a war in Heaven at that time&Lucifer was cast down, and his ateful manipulative angry attitude along with hm.
htcdude is right. Joke about Evil all you want, but its no laughing matter when you see the destruction Lucifer in His many forms has caused. From war, to crime, to rampant divorce, abuse, and just being hateful to one another.
Lucifer does not really care if a person screws around, drinks, smokes--what he REALLY wants is to stir up anger, jealousy, bitterness, wrath, trickery, manipulation. Those things are what destroys lives&guess what Lucifer really relishes? APATHY. When no one give a shit about anything, anyone, even oneself--or, gives up hope. Then, the "Beautiful One" can really get a foothold in people's lives!
So, Lucifer is not this ugly old horned dude in red union suit carrying a pitchfork--he is a Spiritual being(literally the opposite of God) whose attitudes he possesses himself can dwell in anyone. No body is perfect. Most of us triumph over Satan&I imagine that pisses that 'ol fart off more than anything!
In that "Passion of Christ" Movie---know why Satan was so pissed off after Jesus death? Because Satan never got to capture Jesus--Jesus was tempted by Satan many times&each time Jesus just ignored Satan. When Satan realized he never got to win Jesus, he was furious! Christ soul was the one challange Satan never won!

So, don't make Satan/Lucifer's day---try to do the best you can, treat others like you want to be treated&be happy!

God is not the one causing all the wars in the world&evil leaders--its Satan's, and hs influence--the sins of greed, power lust, and selfishness. So don't blame wars on God, thats not fair.

[Stealth]

All this talk about Lucifer/Satan, etc., just feels like "Lord of the Rings" type of fantasy to me. Or the kind of fantasy you see in Legend (the movie with Tom Cruise).
I think there is evil, but to me, talking about Satan is the same as talking abuot the toothfairy.

[miditek]

All this talk about Lucifer/Satan, etc., just feels like "Lord of the Rings" type of fantasy to me.

In a literary sense, Professor Tolkein was certainly influenced by the Bible, of course, and he had discussed this in interviews during his lifetime. The Return of the King is probably one of the best secular apocalyptic allegories of all time, and many of the characters and localities in it do have Biblical counterparts.

Gandalf symbolizes God, while Aragorn, the warrior and King, mirrors Christ. Mordor and Mount Doom are the close equivalent of Hell, and Sauron is certainly similiar to Satan. Rivendell closely resembles Heaven, with the elves being angelic in both appearance as well as, demeanor, while the orcs of the Uruk-hai are positively demonic, and allied with Sauron.

So it's not too difficult to see how one could have that sort of viewpoint. It was Tolkein's intention as an author to essentially introduce new Biblically influenced fiction to the literary, in addition to the religious, masses.

[browneyedgirl]

Then who did Gollum represent, miditek? Judas? Seriously, thats what it seems.

Yeah, I gathered all that from that movie, which is wonderful--great story&special effects!
I also heard that Tolkien was a spiritual&Christian man who wanted to teach people about God, Jesus, good&evil without offending or pushing his ideas upon people. So, he created these stories so that maybe folks could get their deeper meaning.
Very good idea I think!

[Mormegil]

All this talk about Lucifer/Satan, etc., just feels like "Lord of the Rings" type of fantasy to me.

In a literary sense, Professor Tolkein was certainly influenced by the Bible, of course, and he had discussed this in interviews during his lifetime. The Return of the King is probably one of the best secular apocalyptic allegories of all time, and many of the characters and localities in it do have Biblical counterparts.

Gandalf symbolizes God, while Aragorn, the warrior and King, mirrors Christ. Mordor and Mount Doom are the close equivalent of Hell, and Sauron is certainly similiar to Satan. Rivendell closely resembles Heaven, with the elves being angelic in both appearance as well as, demeanor, while the orcs of the Uruk-hai are positively demonic, and allied with Sauron.

So it's not too difficult to see how one could have that sort of viewpoint. It was Tolkein's intention as an author to essentially introduce new Biblically influenced fiction to the literary, in addition to the religious, masses.

Tolkien was Christian and naturally he took some inspiration from The Bible as well as other stories/legends/epics, one of those being Finland's very own Kalevala(some parts of of my username's Mormegil's stories are quite directly taken from it ). But in his autobiography Tolkien states he didn't want to put such direct messages (not same thing as inspiration) into his stories and wanted to just tell good stories. He didn't even like when people suggested that Mordor would be equivalent Soviet Union etc.

(That was hard , so forgive me if you didn't quite understand what I tried to say )

And if there is a Christian allegory, I think it definetly is more apparent in The Silmarillion than in Lord Of The Rings (Ilúvatar = God, Valar = angels, Undying Lands = Heaven, Morgoth = Satan, Angband = Hell etc...)

[miditek]

Then who did Gollum represent, miditek? Judas? Seriously, thats what it seems.

Yeah, I gathered all that from that movie, which is wonderful--great story&special effects!
I also heard that Tolkien was a spiritual&Christian man who wanted to teach people about God, Jesus, good&evil without offending or pushing his ideas upon people. So, he created these stories so that maybe folks could get their deeper meaning.
Very good idea I think!

Yes, I do believe that Gollum could be considered to represent Judas. I think that the ring itself represented sin, which was destroyed in the cracks of doom, just as Christians believe that suffering, death and sin will be swallowed up into Hell.

Professor Tolkein was a Christian, as was his literary contemporary, renowned Christian author (and former atheist), C.S. Lewis. Lewis as you known was the author of another well-known fantasy, the Chronicles of Narnia, and I am sure that he was influenced by Tolkein. Alsan the Lion, was loosely based on the incarnate Christ.

Lewis has had a heavy influence on my friends Steve Babb and Fred Schendel of Glass Hammer. The album "Lex Rex" had both fantasy and Christian themes about a young Roman soldier that ends up being stationed with the Crucifixion battallion at Golgotha, and is given the Spear of Destiny to pierce the side of Christ. Steve and Fred are both Christians, but would probably point out that they are not a "Christian" band, in the contemporary sense.

Steve and I have had many lengthy discussions regarding good, evil, and apocalyptic themes over the years, in addition to the current state of world affairs and its astonishingly accurate correlation to Biblical end-times prophecy.

[miditek]

All this talk about Lucifer/Satan, etc., just feels like "Lord of the Rings" type of fantasy to me.

In a literary sense, Professor Tolkein was certainly influenced by the Bible, of course, and he had discussed this in interviews during his lifetime. The Return of the King is probably one of the best secular apocalyptic allegories of all time, and many of the characters and localities in it do have Biblical counterparts.

Gandalf symbolizes God, while Aragorn, the warrior and King, mirrors Christ. Mordor and Mount Doom are the close equivalent of Hell, and Sauron is certainly similiar to Satan. Rivendell closely resembles Heaven, with the elves being angelic in both appearance as well as, demeanor, while the orcs of the Uruk-hai are positively demonic, and allied with Sauron.

So it's not too difficult to see how one could have that sort of viewpoint. It was Tolkein's intention as an author to essentially introduce new Biblically influenced fiction to the literary, in addition to the religious, masses.

Tolkien was Christian and naturally he took some inspiration from The Bible as well as other stories/legends/epics, one of those being Finland's very own Kalevala(some parts of of my username's Mormegil's stories are quite directly taken from it ). But in his autobiography Tolkien states he didn't want to put such direct messages (not same thing as inspiration) into his stories and wanted to just tell good stories. He didn't even like when people suggested that Mordor would be equivalent Soviet Union etc.

(That was hard , so forgive me if you didn't quite understand what I tried to say )

And if there is a Christian allegory, I think it definetly is more apparent in The Silmarillion than in Lord Of The Rings (Ilúvatar = God, Valar = angels, Undying Lands = Heaven, Morgoth = Satan, Angband = Hell etc...)

The Simarillion, yes! More great stories from Tolkein. I never did get the chance to read his biography, although I've always personally considered The Return of the King to have at least been inspired or influenced by the apocalyptic themes. Unless I am mistaken, I think that the whole thing (The Hobbitt) started as a bedtime story for his kids.

I think you did a great job in explaining this in English, much better than if I'd tried to respond in Finnish.

[Carcass]

Then who did Gollum represent, miditek? Judas? Seriously, thats what it seems.

Yeah, I gathered all that from that movie, which is wonderful--great story&special effects!
I also heard that Tolkien was a spiritual&Christian man who wanted to teach people about God, Jesus, good&evil without offending or pushing his ideas upon people. So, he created these stories so that maybe folks could get their deeper meaning.
Very good idea I think!

I read his biography some years ago and he said, if I'm not completely mistaken, that he loathed allegories. So I guess the simliarities with the Bible and The Second World War are there by chance. Also, it's very easy to find allegories in a rather simple and black&white story like Lord of the Rings.

BTW, did you know J.R.R's son is going to publish one book he didn't have time to finish?

[Carcass]

All this talk about Lucifer/Satan, etc., just feels like "Lord of the Rings" type of fantasy to me. Or the kind of fantasy you see in Legend (the movie with Tom Cruise).
I think there is evil, but to me, talking about Satan is the same as talking abuot the toothfairy.

I think the whole concept of good and evil belongs to books and films like these, I mean people are not evil as they are born, there is reason to the behaviour of individuals and masses. If Mother Teresa was brought up by nazis she sure as hell would have been seen as a bad person by "good" people. I guess I'm a moral relativist then... But that Legend film is quite good.

[Mormegil]

The Simarillion, yes! More great stories from Tolkein. I never did get the chance to read his biography, although I've always personally considered The Return of the King to have at least been inspired or influenced by the apocalyptic themes. Unless I am mistaken, I think that the whole thing (The Hobbitt) started as a bedtime story for his kids.

I think you did a great job in explaining this in English, much better than if I'd tried to respond in Finnish.

Heh, thanks.

If you're interested in his books, you should definetly read his biography. You learn a lot about the meanings behind his stories.

[browneyedgirl]

Carcass is right. No child is ever born evil--all babies are pure&innocent.
Even influences affect children differently, as each child is different. Abuse for example--some children can shake it off&get on with their lives, some lose their mind&senses in response, some become angry, mean and lash out at the world.
I said all that to point out that each of us do not just decide what we do with our lives, but our inner constitution directs us, too.
Those cartoons with the devil on one shoulder&angel on another is quite the way each of us live our life. Making decisions, facing temptations, the 7 deadly sins threatening to overcome us.