Ok this is going to be a looong post but I hope someone will read it (at least in small portions)
There are multiple levels to having a huge debate on religion and philosophy, especially if you have someone who will use (not me) in depth terms that the layman don't use
Erhm...
(Me)
A person who CHOOSES to follow God, and Jesus Christ does so of their own free will Nobody in USA is ever forced into believing God or Jesus
Do you really think a person who lives in a certain community can form a different view on the world? Your surroundings make into what you are. It is not that simple but you could just as well say no one is forced into being a muslim in the middle-east either. Your culture teaches you to value things. Individual experiences only give you a few exceptional cases.
People in USA think totally for themselves
So they don't follow the flow? They don't care what other people think? They form their own impressions on the world? Pshychologically that would mean that your gregarious animalistic instics have been faded by some genetic mutation.
God does not force humans to follow him at all
Yes. He just punishes them if they don't.
Truth? What truth? You know the truth, almighty one? well, maybe we should all bow down and worship you then. I am open-minded to a better way!!!
Socrates always thought that even when we don't know what is the real truth we will be one step closer to it when we know what it certaintly isn't. Believing in something that may not be the truth seems quite awkward to me.
So you're angry that your choices have consequences?
Are your choises ever free? Does a garbage bag move you or you it?
What I'm doing is saying that Theism, and the existence of a creator, is a plausible explanation for the origins of the universe
So you have considered all the scientific ones and come to the conclusion that they are nonsense when compared to the story of an allmighty god who used 7 days to create earth when he as an allmighty being could have done that in seconds.
considering the accounts of Jesus Christ, the prophecies surrounding him, and his impact on the world, perhaps what he preached and claimed was and is that plausible and correct explanation
This is exactly what it is about. You are told how he did miracles and how there were prophecies about him and you believe it because thats what you are told.
Did you know that a catholic saint turned dirty water into first class beer in the middle-ages? That must be right as well. How about the miracles and propehcies of other religions and mythologies?
Then prophecies prooving something and The thought of it not being able to be a coincidence. Well let me tell you: Everytime one prophecy happens to be right we remember it. Everytime they aren't we won't even notice it. This is what Astrology and other Pseudo Sciences are based on.
To go about this though, I have to express to people that their ideas about God, and God's character expressed through the Bible, are two different things.
Well lets just say that if you need to be a pro to read the bible "as it is supposed to" then isn't the knowledge in the reader and not the bible itself?
If, as I believe, the Bible is an accurate depiction of God, then it is true that God created man in His image, and so at the core of the heart of man and woman, you can find the heart of God
So he is violent, selfish, stubborn, irresponsible, depraved and bitter.
We as humans value things that have to do with humanity. Bird would say that god created birds as his image. Fish would say that they are the best because they can breath underwater. Rhinos would say they are the best because their tough skin makes them bulletproof. Why would a human being have a special status on earth. Doesn't God care about animals? Why didn't he give them the intelligence to understand his presence if it was so important give it humans.
God created adventure, excitement, beauty, and passion. Those are examples of His character
You don't propably see it but saying God is like this or God is like that is like saying I like Ice Cream or My cat only wants to eat this special cat food because it hates how the other products are marketed.
How do you know what God is like. You may be saying unintentionlly that I would really like him to be this way yet you can't know that.
We love to tell stories and we love stories with drama A story that has a beginning, middle, and end, where nobody does anything wrong and nobody is ever in any trouble is a story not worth telling at all
So he wants some excitement in his "life" and makes us suffer. Do you really think we are his entertainment? If so then why would he interfere with our lives by giving some orders. Its not a divine manuscript you know. On the other hand if he wanted us to act in someway he would have created us to do so. It's like giving your child a lot of money and then say don't buy anything with it.
Can an allmighty being be really this human? I mean why would he have human emotions? Wpuld that be a perfect being?
Miksi Jumala olisi inhimillisen rajoittunut jollei hän olisi ihmismielestä lähtöisin?
However, sin is a part of the human story. You say that, if God were real, and as powerful as He said he were, that we would live in a completely neutered society, blank, faceless, and without any of those things God really loves. You may not realize that that's the picture you paint.
Once again. I refuse to accept the idea of an arbitary fellow creating a universe to watch his tiny selves worship him.
He acts like an irresponsible child throughout the bible.
If he is indeed going to punish me in the flames of hell I will take that gladly saying: "It's your own fault that you didn't give prooves of yourself and created me to be so doubting"
He doesn't. He laid down one rule for mankind to follow, don't eat the apple, and we will be forever in beautiful paradise.Mankind failed From there, there were more commandments, of which man failed, and so man fell. God, ever loving, called to Abraham to make a new covenant, for man to be justified through. Time and time again, man chose not to. What makes the story of Christ so incredible is that it's a story of grace. Unconditional, for all who will accept it. The perfect sacrifice for all of mankind
1. it wasn't an apple. It is just often painted to look like an apple
2. If we failed that is his fault. He created us into what we are. He created us to fail. If he had thought it was his own mistake he could have tried again. He doesn't seem too clever to me. Thats simply because he was made up by people.
3. Why would he make things so difficult to mankind if he is so allpowerful. Why couldn't he just start over if he indeed is capable of doing anything. Can't you see the commandements don't reflect some supernaturak beings will? It's the moral code of a society of one time and one group of people. Would God really care if we do something bad. Yet he himslef killed a lot of people in the bible and I guess that makes killing perfectly justified.
Humans are funny creatures. We spend the entirety of our lives striving for possessions (cars, women, degrees, skills, promotions, fame, respect).
However, everyone understands that their life is going to end one day. Everything we feverishly strive for will be gone, gone, gone! From our health to our money, every "purpose" in our life becomes absolutely worthless.
This creates a deep internal conflict in every man. Out of this conflict, religion is born! A fantasy world, hand-crafted to give our bleak and depressing lives some color- some meaning. Every culture deals with this conflict in their own primitive way. From the Ancient Greeks, to the native Americans. Put a bunch of half-naked bimbos on a desert* island and wait a few years: they'll come up with a few religions, a few gods, and some arbitrary rituals to somehow grant their beliefs some legitimacy.
The only reason Christianity is the topic of the day is because of the Roman Empire's far reaching influence. Had they not been so successful, we would be worshiping someone else.
All religious folks tell me the same thing: have faith, and god will reveal himself to you (aka: if you convince yourself he is real, then you will be convinced he is real).
If this is indeed the case, why do 95% of North Americans believe in the Christian interpretation of god, and 95% of Syrians believe in Islam? How can any of these religious "denominations" have any legitimacy if God reveals himself to you in different ways purely based on your geographic location?
Clearly, no one can deny that the religion most people follow is tightly related to your culture and upbringing. In other words, [in most cases] you are a Christian because your family is Christian. You are Hindu because your family is Hindu.
And in that case, Religion no longer becomes the pursuit of truth, built upon a foundation of reason and logic. It loses its meaning entirely.
Very well said. That is how I see it as well. Yet I sometimes find it difficult to say it as clearly as you do.
However in recent years, especially thanks to archeology, we're finding that in at least the historical accounts, the gospels and the book of acts especially, are extremely accurate, and would have had to have been written by someone with a direct knowledge of the areas and times
Oh really. How about the gospel that didn't make it with the infamous Jesus vs a Dragon.
Show me even one proof (a proper historical source) that undeniably prooves any of the miraculous events of the bible.
This puts into challenge the notion that the gospels were recorded "Generations" after Christ's death. What also is important is that in recent years, there have been several manuscripts that date especially the Gospel of Mark VERY close to the death of Jesus, perhaps even within 20 years. Certainly by people who saw and experienced the events.
We are not really denying the exeistance of a human being called Jesus of nasaret but the reliablility of the stories that are being told about him.
The four gospels (that were chosen out of about 40) were written in years 40-100 AD and Jesus lived about 4Bc-30AD.
The first part of CS Lewis' Mere Christianity makes powerful arguments towards the existence of a creator, and then towards the probability that the Judeo-Christian line has the most accurate picture
I can give a good booklist of better arguments against Christianity starting with The God Delusion.
Yet as you aren't looking at the situation from a neutral point of view but a view that has many reasonless assumptions you aren't going to read them.
You aren't looking for the truth but someting to strenghten the view you already have.
However as I've said on numerous occasions, and I think this is perhaps the most compelling argument, the resurrection of Christ is really the key issue. Without that, it is easy to dismiss him as someone who said a lot, impacted a lot of people, and then was killed. But Christ did two things that really challenge the naturalist explanation for his life.
First of all, he made prophecy about his own death and resurrection, now, that's something that would be easy to add in later, because the gospels were written after his death and claimed resurrection. However, if the most accepted interpretations of the authorship of the gospel are correct, they were written before the fall of Jerusalem for sure. Jesus, as he was recorded quite a bit in the gospels, spoke quite a bit about this prophecy. It happened in 70AD.
Well lets look at what was going on. His followers had supported him all their lives. Then he is being killed just like many others in those days. He even himself thinks his God abandoned him while hanging on the cross (If God was almighty then why make him suffer) so he himself realized before his death that he was wrong. His mother most likely made up the story as historically anyone raped by a roman soldier was to be killed. A story of the son of god let his mother live. Now that he had died his followers were frustrated and decided to bring along a show refusing to believe he wasn't who they expected him to be.
Like I said many many gospels were written and many stories were made up. Then political actions in europe made Christinity a way of controlling people. Lots of Christian beliefs and traditions are not based on the bible but added by political leaders to strenghten their grip on people.
In the Bible, there are passages that say not to recognize a prophet by miracles but by speaking of things that have not happened but will. Miracles can be faked, or replicated, and even if not, they are a very inefficient way to spread faith. To create the absolute faith, God would have to perform repeated miracles in the life of every man woman and child on a repeated basis. Those stop becoming miracles at that point, and put the world on just really strange terms. It's a reality I couldn't imagine and I don't think it at all meshes what God wants.
More Ad Hoc
Prophecy though, especially precise prophecy, is a very big deal, because it can be observed, and depending on the level of accuracy, can really make an impact. There are three major sources of old testament prophecy concerning Jesus that describe some events in his life in surprising detail, the book of Psalms, the book of Daniel, and the book of Isaiah. One of the ones that I really enjoyed was the prophecy of the 7s in the book of Daniel. I can feel this post getting pretty long already, and I could explain it in detail later, but what it does is predicts, down to the exact year, the year that Christ was crucified (And Old Testament documentation certainly predates Christ)
Just like Richard Dawkins said. You read the bible to find parts that strenghten the assumptions you already have. You will find these parts and ignore those that contradict your assumptions (they are many as well)
I've got a pretty good stack of works about the legitimacy of Christ and the gospels. The three that I've read thus far that together create a very good picture towards the plausibility of Christanity are A. Christianity The Faith that Makes Sense, by Dennis McCallum. B. Mere Christianity by CS Lewis, and C. The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel. I realize that it may be a concern for you that Christianity is based on blind faith, and for a lot of people, it may seem that way, but I've found the more I explore the issue, from both sides, the more certain I am.
I can still give you a good list of books to read if you want me to.
I'd say nowadays atheistic literature is free and doing well.
correct me if I am wrong.
