New Sonata Arctica Single

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Re: New Sonata Arctica Single

Post by AAAAAAAAAA » Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:32 pm

I think Tony wishes he was in a band like Coldplay or U2. Not a fast paced melodic metal band. I got the impression that this was the Tony kakko band with some hired guns on stage...who felt no representation or pride in the music they were putting out.

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Re: New Sonata Arctica Single

Post by Empathica1928 » Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:46 pm

AAAAAAAAAA wrote:I think Tony wishes he was in a band like Coldplay or U2. Not a fast paced melodic metal band. I got the impression that this was the Tony kakko band with some hired guns on stage...who felt no representation or pride in the music they were putting out.
Yeah, I think that, too. At this point it really seems like they're just riding on the band name's popularity and nothing more; if the band wasn't already successful I have a feeling a few of them would've dipped out by now but with Tony running the show it has to be a easy gig for all of them.

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Re: New Sonata Arctica Single

Post by adrian9 » Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:47 am

Damn, the backlash is strong.
I havent read any good reviews of this album.
is Sonata Arctica on the verge of a breakup?
A9

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Re: New Sonata Arctica Single

Post by NeverendingAbyss » Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:03 pm

adrian9 wrote:is Sonata Arctica on the verge of a breakup?
I really wanted to ask this question, too. It would suck because SA has been one of my favorite bands over the years, but I can't vouch for their last 3 albums.

Edguy received a huge backlash with Tinnitus Sanctus. Age of the Joker was another attempt for Tobi to diverge the band but figured he could just do that with Avantasia. Space Police was an improvement and follows what he left off with Rocket Ride.

You would think that Tony would learn, and I think he tried that with Pariah's Child (honestly, the music is great but there was so much cringe in some parts of the album). Instead of fixing the lyrics and keeping the music, he just went back to the new style.

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Re: New Sonata Arctica Single

Post by SentineLEX » Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:08 pm

AAAAAAAAAA wrote:I went to a Sonata Arctica concert the other day and it was very lifeless. No one besides Tony was having fun on stage. I think the guy is role playing as Freddie Mercury and the others are bored as hell.

By contrast its incredible how much energy and chemistry the band has in the live footage from the Silence tour or even the For the Sake of Revenge tour.

I really don't think I could have put together a worse setlist for this concert either. I heard only one song from the first six albums.

The band closed with the song "Life", which is just pure trash.

Can you imagine closing your set with the song no one wants to hear?
Saw them in Seattle. Everyone had fun for FullMoon, a decent number of people sounded like they heard X Marks the Spot for the first time but enjoyed it, and rest of the show (all songs from last two albums) was pretty low energy. But agreed that Tony came off pretending to be Freddie Mercury.

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Re: New Sonata Arctica Single

Post by SentineLEX » Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:10 pm

NeverendingAbyss wrote:
adrian9 wrote:is Sonata Arctica on the verge of a breakup?
I really wanted to ask this question, too. It would suck because SA has been one of my favorite bands over the years, but I can't vouch for their last 3 albums.

Edguy received a huge backlash with Tinnitus Sanctus. Age of the Joker was another attempt for Tobi to diverge the band but figured he could just do that with Avantasia. Space Police was an improvement and follows what he left off with Rocket Ride.

You would think that Tony would learn, and I think he tried that with Pariah's Child (honestly, the music is great but there was so much cringe in some parts of the album). Instead of fixing the lyrics and keeping the music, he just went back to the new style.
He seems like he's trying (and arguably failing) to come up with something that isn't in the shadow of the first 4 albums. Probably sucks to be in your 40s and be seen as having peaked in your 20s

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Re: New Sonata Arctica Single

Post by ZenithMC » Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:15 pm

As Tony needed a reprieve from writing power metal songs, it begs the question of what would have happened had Tony decided to release his alternative material under a different name?

My understanding is that it probably would have been beneficial in the long run. It would have avoided the rift that occurred within the SA fan base, as well as alleviated any possible conflicts of musical direction within the band.

Then, when Tony felt the inspiration necessary, he could create a new SA album that is more stylistically familiar to the SA fan base.

As a musician and composer, if, at some point in the future, I feel the urge to try new and very bold things, or get tired of my current musical direction, This is probably how I will handle this situation. It just seems like a more pragmatic solution to me.

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Re: New Sonata Arctica Single

Post by SentineLEX » Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:11 pm

ZenithMC wrote:As Tony needed a reprieve from writing power metal songs, it begs the question of what would have happened had Tony decided to release his alternative material under a different name?

My understanding is that it probably would have been beneficial in the long run. It would have avoided the rift that occurred within the SA fan base, as well as alleviated any possible conflicts of musical direction within the band.

Then, when Tony felt the inspiration necessary, he could create a new SA album that is more stylistically familiar to the SA fan base.

As a musician and composer, if, at some point in the future, I feel the urge to try new and very bold things, or get tired of my current musical direction, This is probably how I will handle this situation. It just seems like a more pragmatic solution to me.
It would have sold less simply because the other material wouldn't have the words "Sonata Arctica" on them. The label would definitely pressure against that.

Moreover, how would you draw the line? Unia and TDoG sound much different than WHG and RN, but arguably most of the songs on them sound like Sonata songs. Maybe those two albums would have even come off as more Sonata-ish with more faster songs included on each album.

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Re: New Sonata Arctica Single

Post by NeverendingAbyss » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:52 am

Reckoning Night | Unia

That's your line.

Unia and TDoG sound different, and they were both entertaining, but they don't compare to the previous records. I still remember Tony saying that TDoG was going to be like Silence. That was a damn lie.

SGHN and NH felt like a hangover memory. The new album is the same.

I know people don't like PC as much, but there was definitely effort placed into it. The production was crisp and the melodies were catchy. I honestly thought they were going back to the old style, but alas.

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Re: New Sonata Arctica Single

Post by ZenithMC » Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:30 am

I remember reading an interview where Tony basically said the band was burnt out and tired after the extended Reckoning Night tour, and needed to write very different material as a result.
SentineLEX wrote:It would have sold less simply because the other material wouldn't have the words "Sonata Arctica" on them. The label would definitely pressure against that.
This is true, but according to what Tony has said, then perhaps profitability should have come second, as it seems to me that Tony really needed an outlet for novel ideas. He himself acknowledged that he should have released some of the material as a solo album, but was unable to due to time constraints and various practical considerations.

here are some quotes from Tony:

Describing the need for change
http://www.thegauntlet.com/interviews/1 ... ctica.html
Yeah, if we had wanted to go into the mainstream, this album is not the one we would be doing here (laughs). This is way too complex to be a mainstream thing, really, in my opinion. This is brain-food, soul-food for us, the band members, really. Something that needed to be done in order to keep the band intact and keep on doing this, because we didn't want to lose Sonata Arctica. And at some point at the end of the last tour we were really tired. And although we were all still having fun the whole band wasn't really there anymore. Like, during the show you can think of completely different things than what you were actually doing there. It's weird. Like, my mouth, I could sing the words but be thinking of something completely different. And that is not good.
In response to SA labeled as "power metal"
http://www.thegauntlet.com/interviews/1 ... ctica.html
Well, that wasn't the reason you should not write an album just to prove some kind of point because you're stubborn but I don't know (laughs). No matter what had happened, this would be the album that we would have made at this point. I wrote the songs for other reasons, not to prove that we are not power metal. This is something we have been moving towards for a long time and I think I would have gone crazy if I had just written another, 'Hey! Let's everybody sing along!' album. You know, writing these songs for other artists has proven to me in a way that I could do it. I could write another 'Winterhearts Guild', it's no problem, but it's a matter of ambition and art in a way. I want to do something different, in a way, so I won't regret it when I'm older. Sonata Arctica's taken way too much time for me to be able to write solo albums and promote them and do what I feel is the art within that needs to get out. So, if Sonata Arctica was not that channel, I don't know, I'd go crazy.
About staying creative
http://metal-exposure.com/interviews/in ... a-arctica/
After Reckoning Night I was done with the style we were doing at the time. Reckoning Night was already a sign that things were changing. It had songs that were a little bit different. Not as drastically as the follow up, Unia, was. But it was in the air and I needed to explore and search for other ways of doing things. In hindsight, it might have been smart to find alternative media and forums for exploration, like solo albums, but we did not have time for that. Sonata Arctica needs to stay active for many reasons.
SentineLEX wrote:Moreover, how would you draw the line?
I'd say the line would be drawn during Unia, as that's where Tony drew the line. I would imagine that some of the stranger sounding songs of the later albums you mentioned would be hauled off to his own project, and he'd fill in the missing space with some more SA-esque material. That much is theoretical, of course.

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Re: New Sonata Arctica Single

Post by SentineLEX » Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:16 pm

It's probably not every time, but why does Tony sound like sometimes he uses "we" where he really means "I"? I remember TDoG came about because he was depressed around that time, wondering if this was the beginning of that. And PC was an honest attempt to go back to the old style without losing the new.
NeverendingAbyss wrote:Reckoning Night | Unia

That's your line.

Unia and TDoG sound different, and they were both entertaining, but they don't compare to the previous records. I still remember Tony saying that TDoG was going to be like Silence. That was a damn lie.

SGHN and NH felt like a hangover memory. The new album is the same.

I know people don't like PC as much, but there was definitely effort placed into it. The production was crisp and the melodies were catchy. I honestly thought they were going back to the old style, but alas.
There was effort placed into it but I disagree about the production. It's better than the production on Talviyö but I've never been happy with a Pasi mix.

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Re: New Sonata Arctica Single

Post by ZenithMC » Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:39 pm

SentineLEX wrote:It's probably not every time, but why does Tony sound like sometimes he uses "we" where he really means "I"?
Yeah, I don't know what the other SA member's opinions of the change in musical direction were, except for Jani, who didn't enjoy Unia very much. Who knows if what they said in the interviews reflect their actual thoughts on the matter. Every time Tommy gives his opinion of a SA song, he says it's his favorite SA song. How can that be possible? :lol: Then again, that was during Pariah's Child track-by-track https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmA-Nv050fQ, so who knows what the mood of the band is, internally, five years later.

Here's an excerpt from Jani reviewing Stones Grow Her Name
https://janihatesyouall.blogspot.com/20 ... -name.html
To be perfectly honest I didn't like Unia too much, although it had it's moments, and I never heard the next one (don't remember the name) from start to finish. I heard some of the new one and I give you this: I thought the banjo-rock-song (again, don't remember the name) was pretty funny, and "I Have a Right", which I've heard a few times, has a great chorus, I like it a lot. Really sticks in your head. Kudos for that, it's what I always thought the band should be about, great songs and great hooks.
It's interesting to me that Jani liked the chorus of I Have a Right, as the chorus of Constellation of Tears sounds partially inspired by it.

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Re: New Sonata Arctica Single

Post by SentineLEX » Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:51 pm

There's a lot of parallels to Stormcrow songs and other bands's songs, but I never caught the connection to I Have a Right. Good ear

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Re: New Sonata Arctica Single

Post by AAAAAAAAAA » Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:26 am

I'm not simply disappointed by the change in style. I think that even in the chosen style, Sonata does a mediocre job. It's just a product of middle-aged complacency.

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Re: New Sonata Arctica Single

Post by ZenithMC » Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:46 pm

Yeah, the melody is the most important element to me in a song. If the melody is half-assed or doesn't invoke any sort of emotion in me, then I tend to not like the song very much. I also enjoy ambient songs, but the same rules of emotional impact apply.

In SA's newest material, the melodies don't impact me in the slightest. When there are sections that are actually melodic, they tend to sound overly happy and lack any tension or drama, and thus, any reason for me to be interested.

I don't believe age has anything to do with this, and I'll use Stratovarius anytime as an example of a band which defies the age argument. I think it solely has to do with passion and ambition, and it's clear that Tony lacks both of those for writing power metal material (or writing catchy melodies).

I also understand that after a while of writing songs in the same genre, you tend to start asking yourself how you can make your material exciting and interesting again. I've been there many times, and even occasionally had writer's block, where all of my ideas sounded too derived from everything else I'd done. In order to break out of that, I either had to wait for inspiration to hit, or try something radically different, yet familiar at the same time, as to not lose my musical identity. You could also just write songs in a completely different genre, and eventually, little bits of that will find its way into other aspects of your music and breathe new life into it.

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Re: New Sonata Arctica Single

Post by AAAAAAAAAA » Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:28 pm

I don't believe age has anything to do with this, and I'll use Stratovarius anytime as an example of a band which defies the age argument.
You are so idealistic! If you don't mind me asking, how old are you? I would guess around 19-21. No offense intended by the way. Its good to be idealistic.

Stratovarius is not a new band but Matias is writing most of the songs and producing everything. And 3/5th of the band are relatively young.

As you get older, things change and the creative juices do dry. The lack of creativity and emotion is partially mitigated by an increase in experience and skill. Even so, few masterpieces are created by people in their 50s. It is what it is, I'm not trying to be judgmental or mean about it. Phases of life.

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Re: New Sonata Arctica Single

Post by SentineLEX » Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:11 pm

With metal specifically, it's hard to keep writing songs with the same "bite" as your testosterone levels drop.

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Re: New Sonata Arctica Single

Post by ZenithMC » Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:46 pm

I'll be 23 by tomorrow.

Yeah, I agree that people's taste in music can change over time, but at what age am I supposed to expect a composer to start losing their edge? Matias has, for 10 years now, given us really awesome Stratovarius tracks, and he's in his mid 30's. Jens' songs are as badass as ever, and he's in his mid 50's. Lauri's track on Eternal, Lost Without a Trace, is one of my favorites from him (that chorus gets stuck in my head for days), and he's in his early 40's. The Kotipelto/Liimatainen songs are excellent, with Kotipelto in his early 50's and Jani in his late 30's. The youngest member of this band is Rolf, and he's in his early 30's.

Tony Kakko is now in his mid 40's, and he has written a couple songs more recently that show he would be capable of what he put out 15 years ago, had his heart actually been in it. But since he grew tired of writing the "same old stuff", he deliberately changed his musical direction.

In Timo Tolkki's case, I think he psyched himself out by repeatedly thinking that he can't top his songs from the golden era, and achieved a self-fulfilling prophecy. Also, I think the fact that stratovarius didn't instantly become as successful as Metallica after the Elements albums were released "by giving them gold" demoralized him. Not to mention that he is on medications for his mental disorder, which probably zaps a lot of his energy away.

Labyrinth's latest album was really cool, and the guys in that band are in their mid to late 40's.

If you want to go way back in time, Bach had a consistently phenomenal career as a composer. From the songs I've heard, it didn't sound like he lost his creativity near the end of his life.

I don't understand why someone would forget how to produce a melody that touches their heart and soul after many years of experience, just because they've reached some arbitrary age. I can understand that the definition of what they would consider "touching" can change over time, and may no longer align with what touches their fans' hearts and souls.

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Re: New Sonata Arctica Single

Post by AAAAAAAAAA » Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:12 am

Yeah, I agree that people's taste in music can change over time, but at what age am I supposed to expect a composer to start losing their edge?
I appreciate all your points. Its a very complicated and nuanced issue.

I don't think an older person is incapable of producing wonderful music. Judas Priest released what may be the best album of their career a couple years ago (Firepower). Black Sabbath's recent release was also pretty good.

But I do maintain that in any creative endeavor, that magic combination of passion, creativity, experience, and skill, seems to peak before 30 and generally tapers down from there.

You don't get an album like Ecliptica, Return to Heaven Denied, Holy Land, or Images & Words, from a 50 year old. You just don't.

You get albums like Octavarium, Days of Grays, and Architecture of a God.

Of course I am speaking in generalities...

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Re: New Sonata Arctica Single

Post by AAAAAAAAAA » Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:22 am

In Timo Tolkki's case, I think he psyched himself out by repeatedly thinking that he can't top his songs from the golden era, and achieved a self-fulfilling prophecy. Also, I think the fact that stratovarius didn't instantly become as successful as Metallica after the Elements albums were released "by giving them gold" demoralized him. Not to mention that he is on medications for his mental disorder, which probably zaps a lot of his energy away.
A very interesting subject!

Timo Tolkki was never a paragon of stability but his mental health sharply took a turn for the worse around 2004 and believe me it has not gotten better. I don't agree with your specific reasons necessarily but I understand where you're coming from. I believe his creative juices dried up over the years (same as Tony Kakko, sorry...) and he had some strong genetic predisposition to mental illness which certainly threw a wrench in the works. Anyone expecting Visions Pt. 2 from him will be sorely disappointed because he hasn't released a great album in over fifteen year and can barely play his instrument.

Reading his Facebook posts in recent months, he is either:

a) Totally wasted out of his mind 24/7 (yes: his "I haven't had a drop of alcohol in X years" is no more).
b) Under heavy influence of medication that are affecting his judgement and behavior
c) Experiencing some kind of dementia

There is nothing funny about it by the way- but he looks like he's on the brink of total physical and mental collapse.

Just the other day, he wrote a Facebook post inviting "Ladies only" to chat with him on WhatsApp. His own brother responded:
Tero Tolkki The sense of humour you possessed in the past could have easily explained a post like this just as a joke but I don't think you are even joking anymore. Please remove these types of posts cause you are only harming yourself and allowing people to make fun of you. And it saddens me to a point I don't know whether to laugh or cry anymore.
tragic.

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Re: New Sonata Arctica Single

Post by Southern_Cross » Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:08 am

AAAAAAAAAA wrote:I went to a Sonata Arctica concert the other day and it was very lifeless. No one besides Tony was having fun on stage. I think the guy is role playing as Freddie Mercury and the others are bored as hell.

By contrast its incredible how much energy and chemistry the band has in the live footage from the Silence tour or even the For the Sake of Revenge tour.

I really don't think I could have put together a worse setlist for this concert either. I heard only one song from the first six albums.

The band closed with the song "Life", which is just pure trash.

Can you imagine closing your set with the song no one wants to hear?
Saw them earlier this month and can confirm all of this. Most of what they played was from the new album which was a let down. They did play Full Moon but no Don't Say a Word, so major bummer. They closed with Life which was fine but a little odd? They played X Marks the Spot which I thought was super out of left field cuz I've seen em play twice before now and that's never happened. Just a little lifeless but they were opening for Kamelot so maybe they just didn't plan the setlist well? I don't know, I'm a SA fan still and I wanna give em a chance; maybe when they play their own tour it'll be better.
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Re: New Sonata Arctica Single

Post by Southern_Cross » Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:10 am

SentineLEX wrote:
AAAAAAAAAA wrote:I went to a Sonata Arctica concert the other day and it was very lifeless. No one besides Tony was having fun on stage. I think the guy is role playing as Freddie Mercury and the others are bored as hell.

By contrast its incredible how much energy and chemistry the band has in the live footage from the Silence tour or even the For the Sake of Revenge tour.

I really don't think I could have put together a worse setlist for this concert either. I heard only one song from the first six albums.

The band closed with the song "Life", which is just pure trash.

Can you imagine closing your set with the song no one wants to hear?
Saw them in Seattle. Everyone had fun for FullMoon, a decent number of people sounded like they heard X Marks the Spot for the first time but enjoyed it, and rest of the show (all songs from last two albums) was pretty low energy. But agreed that Tony came off pretending to be Freddie Mercury.
Dude you were at the Seattle show? Me too!
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Re: New Sonata Arctica Single

Post by valo_666 » Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:09 pm

So basically Sonata Arctica is now just the name of Tony Kakko's solo project, cause otherwise labels and stuff wouldn't even have a look.

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Re: New Sonata Arctica Single

Post by SatanicSmile » Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:37 am

Their current setlist is the worst ever. I mean it already was during summer festivals in Finland. Honestly didn't go to see them in my town because I knew how bad the setlist is. I'm happy about the fact they can still play whatever they want to (or Tony wants to) and make living from it, but still... I've seen them several times before and they come here somewhat regularly anyway so yeah

valo_666 wrote:So basically Sonata Arctica is now just the name of Tony Kakko's solo project, cause otherwise labels and stuff wouldn't even have a look.
He is about to release actual solo album at some point as well, there's been talk about it at least ever since Stones Grow Her Name. Funnily "Somewhere Close to You" was supposed to be on it if I remember correctly now. To be honest I wonder which would end up being better album, Kakko's first solo album or (what would be at the time) the latest Sonata album.

ZenithMC wrote:It's interesting to me that Jani liked the chorus of I Have a Right, as the chorus of Constellation of Tears sounds partially inspired by it.
Another interesting thing is how "successful" that song actually is. I mean, some years ago when I was on their concert in Finland, during that song audience was very alive. And that was their 15th Anniversary Tour, setlist included songs like "Wolf & Raven", "The Cage", "My Land"... Sure the song has catchy melody and it was played just before the encore, but you know, at the time I was very surprised :lol:

ZenithMC wrote:
SentineLEX wrote:It's probably not every time, but why does Tony sound like sometimes he uses "we" where he really means "I"?
Yeah, I don't know what the other SA member's opinions of the change in musical direction were, except for Jani, who didn't enjoy Unia very much.
The book has a bit of their opinions, for example Henrik said that Unia was better than Reckoning Night in many ways.

About TDoG he pretty much said it's a mess without identity, some good songs and some that were not supposed to be there at all. Tony of course disagreed.

Henrik seems to tell his opinions more than some of his band mates. Before he knew the lyrics of the latest album, he had said on some interview something like "hopefully Tony won't write any political songs" . And there ended up being more than one song more or less related to political themes? :lol:


Well what I personally think about those two records (Unia and TDoG), now that there's been some talk about them... At first (around the release and for couple of years after that I think) I didn't like Unia at all. Eventually it changed and now I really miss what I would call "aggressive" elements, those really made it more interesting. The Days of Grays again is the last album that really sounds like Sonata Arctica for me, even tho I find 5-6 songs from it rather boring. Back then and still now

ZenithMC wrote:I don't believe age has anything to do with this, and I'll use Stratovarius anytime as an example of a band which defies the age argument. I think it solely has to do with passion and ambition, and it's clear that Tony lacks both of those for writing power metal material (or writing catchy melodies).
One thing it does affect are lyrics tho, at least when it comes to Tony's songwriting. Now he writes "I'm daddy now" -music and in the past something else... Underwear music etc

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Re: New Sonata Arctica Single

Post by ZenithMC » Sun Oct 20, 2019 4:04 pm

I'm back, sorry for the delay! :oops:
AAAAAAAAAA wrote:Of course I am speaking in generalities...
Well, if we bring the scope back to only Tony Kakko, I can only use what he himself has stated as evidence, and basing my thoughts on his own words could hardly be construed as idealistic, it's the antithesis. If anything, I'd argue that just saying it's all due to age is very abstract, because, in this case, how do you prove that?

According his quotes that I posted up above, I can only conclude that he changed direction because he felt mentally compelled to, not because he was suddenly incapable of writing power metal songs.

Another point to bring up is that, yes, age can eventually have an effect on your mental capabilities, but that shouldn't happen unless you are elderly, or have some form of age-related mental deterioration, and Tony is nowhere near that age, nor is it a guarantee that any one person will develop said condition in their golden years.

Now to answer this question: Do I think Tony will ever write excellent power metals songs again? My answer: Only if he really really wants to, and has his heart completely in it. Otherwise, not a chance.

And now for the theoretical part:
I hold the opinion that creativity is innate. My reason being: It seems difficult, if not impossible, to teach a non-creative person to be creative. Thus, I feel that if you had the ability to conjure up an incredibly creative idea, irrespective of age, you should always be able to tap into that, under adequate levels of focus, motivation, and inspiration. Of course, creative people cannot be creative all the time. When motivation is low, it can seem like it's impossible to come up with good ideas, which can make it look like that person has lost their creative edge.
SatanicSmile wrote:Henrik seems to tell his opinions more than some of his band mates. Before he knew the lyrics of the latest album, he had said on some interview something like "hopefully Tony won't write any political songs" . And there ended up being more than one song more or less related to political themes? :lol:
I enjoy it infinitely more when a band tells a story through their lyrics, verses lyrics pertaining to "environmentalism", or "topical political events". Anyone could write lyrics about the environment or politics, which bands often do, and it's been done to death, but not everyone can come up with interesting fictional stories, like what are present and prominent in Reckoning Night.

Of course, there are ways of writing political songs in more interesting ways, such as Abandoned, Pleased, Brainwashed, Exploited. But, that is less common. I don't know if I've ever heard an environmental song that didn't come off as preachy.

Nowadays, Tony has taken a nose dive in the lyrics department. He either writes in a style that is deliberately confusing for the audience to discern, like he's generally been doing since Unia, or, more rarely, he ends up writing lyrics that contain pure cringe.
SatanicSmile wrote:One thing it does affect are lyrics tho, at least when it comes to Tony's songwriting. Now he writes "I'm daddy now" -music and in the past something else... Underwear music etc
Well, I'd argue it has more to do with the fact that he is a father now, and less to do with his age. I'm not a parent, but I recognize the effects that having children can have on your thoughts and beliefs, and that certainly would affect your lyrical content, to an extent.

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Re: New Sonata Arctica Single

Post by AAAAAAAAAA » Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:59 am

ZenithMC wrote: Well, if we bring the scope back to only Tony Kakko, I can only use what he himself has stated as evidence, and basing my thoughts on his own words could hardly be construed as idealistic, it's the antithesis. If anything, I'd argue that just saying it's all due to age is very abstract, because, in this case, how do you prove that?

[...]Thus, I feel that if you had the ability to conjure up an incredibly creative idea, irrespective of age, you should always be able to tap into that, under adequate levels of focus, motivation, and inspiration. Of course, creative people cannot be creative all the time. When motivation is low, it can seem like it's impossible to come up with good ideas, which can make it look like that person has lost their creative edge.
These discussions are inherently abstract. But I absolutely believe that creativity peaks in the late teens and wanes in the late 20s. Of course that does not mean you cannot be creative beyond that (side note: I hate having to add these kinds of obvious qualifiers but there are too many low-iq people on the internet).

You can attribute that to biology or you can attribute that to decreases in focus, motivation, and inspiration that come with age..but it is what it is.

If I had to point out a "mechanism of action" for this decline in creativity, I would attribute it to a decrease in libido (diminished desire to put yourself on display). Of course I can't prove any of this.
ZenithMC wrote: According his quotes that I posted up above, I can only conclude that he changed direction because he felt mentally compelled to, not because he was suddenly incapable of writing power metal songs.
The problem is not that he changed direction. The problem is that his new songs suck ass and are produced horribly. My complaint isn't that he changed songwriting styles.

I'm sorry but X Marks the Spot is a total joke compared to White Pearl Black Oceans. That is not because of style.

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Re: New Sonata Arctica Single

Post by ZenithMC » Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:47 am

AAAAAAAAAA wrote:These discussions are inherently abstract. But I absolutely believe that creativity peaks in the late teens and wanes in the late 20s. Of course that does not mean you cannot be creative beyond that (side note: I hate having to add these kinds of obvious qualifiers but there are too many low-iq people on the internet).

You can attribute that to biology or you can attribute that to decreases in focus, motivation, and inspiration that come with age..but it is what it is.
The point I was trying to make was that negatively correlating creativity to age is too general an assumption to make; the biggest problem I have with it is that it cannot be proven true, so I can only consider it a theory.

As you dig deeper into uncovering why a particular artist's music starts to sound worse, or different, there's usually an actual underlying cause, so the age theory just seems like a misattribution to the reality of the situation.

I see creativity levels as a roller coaster of sorts. Sometimes it's really high, and other times, it's pretty low. I do not see loss of creativity due to age as a given. Some people are creative throughout their entire lives, and others are one-hit-wonders; it's an individual characteristic.
AAAAAAAAAA wrote:If I had to point out a "mechanism of action" for this decline in creativity, I would attribute it to a decrease in libido (diminished desire to put yourself on display).
Well, fair enough.
AAAAAAAAAA wrote:The problem is not that he changed direction. The problem is that his new songs suck ass and are produced horribly. My complaint isn't that he changed songwriting styles.

I'm sorry but X Marks the Spot is a total joke compared to White Pearl Black Oceans. That is not because of style.
I completely agree that the new songs aren't very appealing. However, if, according to you, it wasn't the style change that caused the hard-boiled ass suckage, then what else could it be?

Personally, I feel it is because his style changed and evolved into something that I don't feel passionately about. I don't know... different strokes for different folks, I guess.

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Re: New Sonata Arctica Single

Post by AAAAAAAAAA » Tue Nov 05, 2019 7:07 am

ZenithMC wrote: The point I was trying to make was that negatively correlating creativity to age is too general an assumption to make; the biggest problem I have with it is that it cannot be proven true, so I can only consider it a theory.
Well, it is too general because it was intended to be a generalization, not an ironclad rule.

Look up any band with serious longevity on a website like RateYourMusic (rym.com). Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, Jethro Tull, Judas Priest. The data strongly supports the theory that the wheels start to come off a decade or so in. Only in exceptional cases do musicians in their 50s or 60s produce works that are as well received as in their youth. You could attribute this to a lot of other biases (generational and otherwise) and its true there are other factors at play here, but certainly the data supports my theory.

I see creativity levels as a roller coaster of sorts. Sometimes it's really high, and other times, it's pretty low. I do not see loss of creativity due to age as a given. Some people are creative throughout their entire lives, and others are one-hit-wonders; it's an individual characteristic.
I feel you aren't following my point. I never claimed creativity does not have highs and lows, and I certainly never claimed its not an individual characteristic (as if the only factor was age!). But I do insist it is correlated with age- that is to say, it is a factor among several other factors.
Personally, I feel it is because his style changed and evolved into something that I don't feel passionately about. I don't know... different strokes for different folks, I guess.
Who are these different folks who then should, by your argument, be passionate about this change in direction? Sure there are a handful of people but the overwhelming consensus of the new works is negative and overwhelming consensus of the classics is positive. Just check rym.com as I mentioned before and you'll see.

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Re: New Sonata Arctica Single

Post by ZenithMC » Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:47 am

AAAAAAAAAA wrote:but certainly the data supports my theory.
Of course it does, because it is too broad. Is there a way to isolate exactly the effects that only age has on creativity? If so, I'd like to know, because it would greatly help support your theory.
AAAAAAAAAA wrote:I feel you aren't following my point. I never claimed creativity does not have highs and lows, and I certainly never claimed its not an individual characteristic (as if the only factor was age!). But I do insist it is correlated with age- that is to say, it is a factor among several other factors.
I wasn't trying to counter any of your arguments in this instance, except for this: "I do not see loss of creativity due to age as a given". Other than that, I was only really stating my thoughts on creativity.
AAAAAAAAAA wrote:Who are these different folks who then should, by your argument, be passionate about this change in direction?
People with bad taste in music. :lol: Those are the people with a passion for SA's current direction. Believe me, they do exist. Go check the comments section on a few of SA's Youtube videos and you'll see some people opine that they are doing fine. Of course, I much prefer SA's classic albums.
AAAAAAAAAA wrote:Sure there are a handful of people but the overwhelming consensus of the new works is negative and overwhelming consensus of the classics is positive. Just check rym.com as I mentioned before and you'll see.
I don't disagree with you (or in this case, the consensus), but artists should only create what they themselves enjoy, not solely cater to the demands of their fanbase. Sure, artists can give and take a little here and there, but the second an artist starts listening to everything the fans want, it's effectively the end of that artist's artistic freedom. Believe me, there was a time when I was upset about the changes to their musical direction, but then I discovered Stratovarius. :-D

You can't go by the consensus for everything. If I did that, then, according to RateYourMusic, my favorite Stratovarius album would be Visions, but in reality, it isn't. I like to form my own opinions on things. Also, according to Metal-Archives consensus, I should be into Burzum. :lol:

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Re: New Sonata Arctica Single

Post by AAAAAAAAAA » Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:49 am

ZenithMC wrote: Of course it does, because it is too broad. Is there a way to isolate exactly the effects that only age has on creativity? If so, I'd like to know, because it would greatly help support your theory.
No, there is no way I can think of. Obviously its impossible to prove a statement like mine. Not only because creativity is something that can't easily be defined, but for a few other important reasons.

So I can't prove it and you can't disprove it. But its still true. :lol:
AAAAAAAAAA wrote: I don't disagree with you (or in this case, the consensus), but artists should only create what they themselves enjoy, not solely cater to the demands of their fanbase.
In my opinion, there is no "should", really. Some artists may view art as a vehicle for self expression and find it cathartic. Others view it as an opportunity to share and entertain and will cater fully to the fans. There is no right or wrong here, but perhaps what you mean to say is that you personally don't value commercial music.

On the other hand its possible to cater to fans without being commercial. Like releasing another Ecliptica. So this stuff is all very complicated!

You can't go by the consensus for everything. If I did that, then, according to RateYourMusic, my favorite Stratovarius album would be Visions, but in reality, it isn't. I like to form my own opinions on things. Also, according to Metal-Archives consensus, I should be into Burzum. :lol:


You can't go by consensus for everything, but you can't ignore it either.

Sites like RM and MetalArchives are prone to a few very important biases and its important to understand these biases when interpreting these results.

Comparing different artists- especially different artists from different genres- exacerbates these biases. So I would never advise you to look for the highest rated album or band. But within the Genre of your choosing it is reasonable to pay close attention to the most acclaimed bands. And within the bands, to the most acclaimed albums. There are still a few other biases to account for (changing lineups, changing styles), but you get my idea.

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