Timo Tolkki's Avalon Pt. 3 and tour

[NeverendingAbyss]

So I just listened to Angra's Temple of Shadows album.

Kai Hansen was a welcoming surprise. The tunes do have a very "German" touch to it. It reminds me a lot of Edguy (pre-Tinnitus) and Blind Guardian (I realized Hansi was involved, too), but with a very progressive mix. Winds of Destination is phenomenal, and the remaining tracks are coherent and pleasant to listen to. I don't think there's a weak song here.

I recall listening to Rebirth, and it did not really strike me as out-of-the-norm. Any other albums from them you think I should listen to?

[AAAAAAAAAA]

So I just listened to Angra's Temple of Shadows album.

Kai Hansen was a welcoming surprise.

Kai Hansen has been a friend of the band for a long time. In fact, the first Angra Album "Angels Cry" was produced in his studio in Hamburg. You can also probably recognize Hansi Kursch's guest appearance as well.

The tunes do have a very "German" touch to it. It reminds me a lot of Edguy (pre-Tinnitus) and Blind Guardian (I realized Hansi was involved, too), but with a very progressive mix. Winds of Destination is phenomenal, and the remaining tracks are coherent and pleasant to listen to. I don't think there's a weak song here.

Its a great album. The first few songs are very technical power metal. Towards the second half of the album, the songs get more experimental and progressive. My one complaint is the mastering of the songs. I think it sounds very condensed and the individual instruments don't have a chance to breathe. As strong as this album is, my ears can't take more than 20 minutes of it at a time. I know that's an idiotic non-technical explanation but its the best I can do. Maybe Zenith can give this album a spin and let me know his thoughts on the production: for me it sounds nothing like Rebirth, which is a more clean, open sound with less choppy vocal editing.

Angra has had several lineup changes throughout their history. This particular lineup (Rebirth, Temple of Shadows, and Aurora Consurgens) is arguably the most technical, virtuosic lineup of any power metal band ever. Kiko Loureiro needs no introduction, he's a Vai/Satriani level talent with good songwriting skills to boot. Aquiles Priester is one of my favorite drummers: a sensation who even auditioned for Dream Theater to replace Portnoy. And the fat bassist whose name eludes me (Felipe Areola?) is considered one of the best bass players in South America.

I recall listening to Rebirth, and it did not really strike me as out-of-the-norm.

From the perspective of production and performance, Rebirth is an amazing album. Great production by Dennis Ward, strong melodies throughout, and tremendous guitar solos everywhere. The only problem is that stylistically they played it very safe, and the songs can sound a bit generic at times. I'd skip "Nova Era" and "Judgement Day", and try "Heroes of Sand", "Acid Rain", and "Millenium Sun"- the songs I return to the most when listening to this era in the band.

Any other albums from them you think I should listen to?

Yes! First of all, Holy Land and Temple of Shadows (to a lesser extent, Rebirth) are worthy multiple spins, so definitely revisit them early and often to let the glory sink in.

For your next homework assignment, I would probably suggest the debut album "Angels Cry". Its far more similar to "Holy Land" than "Temple of Shadows", but the songs are SO GOOD. I recommend listening to the first three songs (Carry On, Time, Angels Cry), which are my favorites- though there are some gems later in the album too.

The reason I recommended Holy Land over Angels Cry is that the former is more of a mature, cohesive work of art. From the perspective of individual song quality, they are both comparable.

If you're done with Angels Cry, you're probably up to speed with the band's finest work and at that point you can go through the rest in any particular order. There are no bad albums.

Aurora Consurgens and Fireworks were considered letdowns at the time, but in the absolute sense they are both awesome albums. Just did not live up to their preceding albums. Aqua is a wonderful album from a songwriting perspective, but by this point Edu Falaschi's voice was totally wrecked and his lackluster performance makes the album very hard to get through. Its a shame because some of those tunes are amazing.

Secret Garden and Omni are the last two albums with Lione and perhaps my least favorite. They sound basically like the Karevik-era Kamelot albums: fundamentally strong, but overproduced and lacking that spark. This applies mainly to the last album, Omni, but to a lesser extent, Secret Garden as well. I believe the band visibly suffered from the departure of Kiko Loureiro, and Bittencourt's increasing dominance of the songwriting process (and even singing) was not a step in the right direction.

Anyway, I could say much more but I don't want to bore you to death!!!

[NeverendingAbyss]

My one complaint is the mastering of the songs. I think it sounds very condensed and the individual instruments don't have a chance to breathe. As strong as this album is, my ears can't take more than 20 minutes of it at a time.

I can see that. It's very bombastic, like Eternal. If you do work while listening to it it gets more passive, but I tried to listen to the album again at night and it's difficult to focus overall.

Angra has had several lineup changes throughout their history. This particular lineup (Rebirth, Temple of Shadows, and Aurora Consurgens) is arguably the most technical, virtuosic lineup of any power metal band ever. Kiko Loureiro needs no introduction, he's a Vai/Satriani level talent with good songwriting skills to boot. Aquiles Priester is one of my favorite drummers: a sensation who even auditioned for Dream Theater to replace Portnoy. And the fat bassist whose name eludes me (Felipe Areola?) is considered one of the best bass players in South America.

This reminds me Steve Vai did perform in Halo 2.

I'll look the band members up and its history. I would think Priester would have been a great replacement for Portnoy (similar rhythms). Angra was always in my secondary-tier (actually more like tertiary) mainly because I listened to the more generic tracks. I can see I was wrong. Thanks for the enlightenment, dude!

[AAAAAAAAAA]

This reminds me Steve Vai did perform in Halo 2.

I'll look the band members up and its history. I would think Priester would have been a great replacement for Portnoy (similar rhythms). Angra was always in my secondary-tier (actually more like tertiary) mainly because I listened to the more generic tracks. I can see I was wrong. Thanks for the enlightenment, dude!

No problem!

PS: I was playing Halo 2 yesterday

[ZenithMC]

I finally got around to listening to Angra's Angels Cry on my badass studio monitors. I listened twice to get a good feel.

General Criticisms

- Not very fond of Andre Matos' squeaky vocals.
- Bass drums are difficult to discern (get buried).
- Holy-moly is the bass drum ducking everything behind it. The constant pulsing and breathing is, what I consider to be, an annoying production flaw. It's not as bad as on Dreamspace, but it's still present.
- Other than that blunder, the production is quite good (levels, EQ, &c)
- Bass player is god-tier.
- Guitar player's got some pretty slick chops.
- Not a fan of the approach to the soft sections.
- Some flow issues with prog section segues.
- Lack of tension throughout various parts of the album made palatability difficult.
- The most damning criticism: the vocal melodies hardly ever provoked an emotional response from me.

Specific Criticisms

Unfinished Allegro: It seems common for power/prog bands to include an excerpt from a classical music composer in their albums, especially as an intro. Well, it's inoffensive enough and segues right along into the next song.

Carry On: Very nice, especially the bridge section. Easily the best song here, but... I didn't enjoy the chorus at all and the vocal lines during the verses left something to be desired.

Time: I didn't like the intro very much, but suddenly... Ah! A very familiar and welcome chord progression. I know I previously criticized Destiny's vocal rhythms, but the verses here truly take the cake for most repetitive vocal rhythm. It's similar to a thrash band's vocal rhythms, such as Anthrax. The chorus is actually quite good here and it's perhaps the best chorus on the album. The guitar lick after the chorus is cool. 2nd best song.

Angels Cry: This track is nice, but perhaps too progressive for my taste. The track departs from the central idea for far too long and it segues back to it very poorly (as is, no segue to be found).

Stand Away: I'm getting some serious Elements vibes from this track. Not my jam at all. Easily the most forgetable/boring track here. Where are the hooks? Yes, I'll let this song rest in peace.

Never Understand: Still, where are the hooks? The middle of this album is quite a lull. Not a fan of the guitar lick. Saved by the bass lines, guitar solos, and chorus. It seems there were a number of guest guitarists performing solos on this track.

Wurthering Heights: Cover. I'm not familiar with the original song, but god does this sound annoying as all hell. It accentuates all the aspects I don't like about this album. Worst song. In fact, gnashing one's teeth is more pleasurable an activity than having to endure this song.

Streets of Tomorrow: Off to a good start. Nice instrumental break w/ guitar solo. Perhaps the 3rd best track?

Evil Warning: Hmm... very nice instrumental section in the middle! The rest of the song doesn't work for me at all.

Lasting Child: Overall, I found this track to be slow-going and difficult to remember. Part II is nice and all, but it is a bit redundant in its execution.

Ratings Breakdown

Code: Select all

UA 8/10
CO 9/10
T  8.5/10
AC 7.5/10
SA 6/10
NU 7/10
WH 3/10
ST 8/10
EW 6.5/10
LC 6/10
-------------
7/10 overall

Epilogue

I realized after listening to this that I really love memorable poppy vocals lines, so that's the reason I was so hard on the melodies here; they lacked that quality, for the most part. Anyway, I'll be back for Holy Land soon...

[AAAAAAAAAA]

Thanks for the very thorough review!

Angels Cry is the first studio album and they were probably around 20 years old at the time. It has its rough patches and isn't totally mature from a songwriting perspective, but I love the energy and spirit. The follow-up (Holy Land) is a bit more polished, though not necessarily better.

I more or less agree with everything you said with a few exceptions:

- I think Never Understand is a really, really good song- just takes a few spins to sink in.
- I actually like Wuthering Heights, but don't think it fits well on the album
- Angels Cry rocks! Its the first song I heard from Angra, though I heard the live version on the Rebirth World Tour. When I saw that video, the sheer musicianship and talent stood out to me and made a deep impression on a young A10!



I don't think we'll totally see eye to eye on Angels Cry, because my impression was formed almost twenty years ago as a "blank slate" and remains unchanged. You're viewing it in a more mature, analytical light.

[robocop]

I realized after listening to this that I really love memorable poppy vocals lines, so that's the reason I was so hard on the melodies here; they lacked that quality, for the most part. Anyway, I'll be back for Holy Land soon...

Can you post a song or album where you enjoy the whole thing? Production and all. I feel that you have very few albums like that due to the tip top perfectionist deep in you.

[AAAAAAAAAA]

I realized after listening to this that I really love memorable poppy vocals lines, so that's the reason I was so hard on the melodies here; they lacked that quality, for the most part. Anyway, I'll be back for Holy Land soon...

Can you post a song or album where you enjoy the whole thing? Production and all. I feel that you have very few albums like that due to the tip top perfectionist deep in you.

Shots fired!

I would probably guess he'll say Episode, Visions, Ecliptical, Silence, and maybe Return to Heaven Denied. Am I right?

[NeverendingAbyss]

I realized after listening to this that I really love memorable poppy vocals lines, so that's the reason I was so hard on the melodies here; they lacked that quality, for the most part. Anyway, I'll be back for Holy Land soon...

Can you post a song or album where you enjoy the whole thing? Production and all. I feel that you have very few albums like that due to the tip top perfectionist deep in you.

Shots fired!

I would probably guess he'll say Episode, Visions, Ecliptical, Silence, and maybe Return to Heaven Denied. Am I right?

If not those then any Pink Floyd album.

[ZenithMC]

I realized after listening to this that I really love memorable poppy vocals lines, so that's the reason I was so hard on the melodies here; they lacked that quality, for the most part. Anyway, I'll be back for Holy Land soon...

Can you post a song or album where you enjoy the whole thing? Production and all. I feel that you have very few albums like that due to the tip top perfectionist deep in you.

Shots fired!

I would probably guess he'll say Episode, Visions, Ecliptical, Silence, and maybe Return to Heaven Denied. Am I right?

Shots accepted! Yes, I'm a perfectionist. My standards are higher than the sky, so I'm the biggest stickler ever when it comes to melodies. Melodies are the most important part of the song to me, so if they aren't appealing to me, then I usually won't like the track very much. However, a track can be salvaged via excellent solos and other interesting tidbits. There's no doubt in my mind that Angra is a very talented group and I'd love to see where they go with their second album.

@A10: Yeah, that's a damn good list of albums. I'd also throw in Winterheart's Guild, for good measure. Definitely include RtHD. I was so moved by it after I listened to it that I needed to make a thread about it here! Everything about that album really appealed to me. I consider Kakko (in early SA) to be some kind of melodic grand wizard genius. The first few SA albums have some of the greatest vocal melodies I've ever heard, bar none. Winterheart's Guild, specifically, has my favorite melodies from them. I also really like Metallica's Ride the Lightning and the Dio-era Black Sabbath albums, but I don't really like the sound of the bass drum on those albums (too boomy), so I guess it doesn't conform to robocop's query. If we aren't limiting the selection to actual bands, than we can throw in a million video game soundtracks, too.

Here's my non-metal contribution: Outside by The Fixx. I really love the atmosphere and melodies (and everything else) on this song. If you're wondering how I know about this album, it's because my dad had it on cassette.

If not those then any Pink Floyd album.

I don't know... it's been a while since I've listened to Pink Floyd. They're a cool band, but they aren't really my style. (I noticed you're winkin'-an'-blinkin', but I'm choosing to interpret your words literally because if they were intended as a sly comment, it's completely lost on me. )

[NeverendingAbyss]

Neat track . What do you think of Mike Oldfield or Vangelis?

I, too, consider Winterheart's Guild to be a fantastic album. Gravenimage, Silver Tongue, Broken, and Champagne Bath are some of my favorite tracks.

Ride the Lightning had several iconic tracks, but this is the one case where I find the production quality to be lacking. Perhaps a trend to keep rock as raw as possible at the time?

[AAAAAAAAAA]

The first few SA albums have some of the greatest vocal melodies I've ever heard, bar none. Winterheart's Guild, specifically, has my favorite melodies from them.

That's a great album with no bad songs! I definitely approve. For some reason I assumed you would like Ecliptica / Silence more, as they remind me much more of Episode / Visions, but I realize that's subjective.

I also like Reckoning Night quite a bit (maybe less than the first three), parts of Unia, and most of Days of Grays.

I also really like Metallica's Ride the Lightning

I haven't listened carefully in a while- I started listening to Metallica only a few years ago (though obviously I had heard the hits). But my impression of this album was that the first half is phenomenal and the second half just decent, and kills the momentum a bit. Is that accurate?

and the Dio-era Black Sabbath albums

Can I be real here...I always liked the Ozzy albums much more. The Dio era sounds so mainstream and soft to me. The earlier albums sounded much more edgy and abrasive (Master of Reality, Sabbath Bloody Sabbath, etc). I love the evil, raw, gritty sound compared to the much more commerical Dio tunes.

I need to relisten but as I vaguely remember, Heaven and Hell was pretty good (especially the title track), though not every tune left a big impression on me. Mob Rules side 1 was really good with some high energy tracks, but nothing remarkable on Side 2. Dehumanizer, I haven't heard in years. Scrolling through the track list now, "Too Late", and "I" are memorable, but nothing else stands out. I may need to give it another chance.

now... it's been a while since I've listened to Pink Floyd. They're a cool band, but they aren't really my style. (I noticed you're winkin'-an'-blinkin', but I'm choosing to interpret your words literally because if they were intended as a sly comment, it's completely lost on me. )

It was a joke I think (hence the wink).

Wish You Were Here is a wonderful album. I am a bit burned out on Pink Floyd for hearing Dark Side of the Moon one thousand times, it bores me to death. And some of the other material is very inconsistent. But Wish You Were Here is great.

Recognize that its milder music and no cause to throw up the horns. It requires some patience but your investment will be rewarded.

[robocop]

I guess it doesn't conform to robocop's query. If we aren't limiting the selection to actual bands, than we can throw in a million video game soundtracks, too.

Conform to my query.

The song you posted has this very jazz fusion type of guitar tone. I'm not sure if you are into fusion. Google says that band is a type of new wave.

Anyway...

I like the Dio and SA stuff too..that was music I used to listen to 15 years ago so I branched out since then.
I usually lean more towards the current and past chiptune artists rather than older video game soundtracks if listening to that stuff, but have no problems listening to classics.

Did you ever listen to the Metallica albums on vinyl? It's neat finding rips of them online...

Any over the top power metal song/album can win me right over, though. I do get ear fatigue now and do not sit through whole albums like back in the DISCMAN days....SAD!

NOW IF YOU DON'T MIND ME I'M GONNA GO TAKE MY BACK PAIN MEDICINE BECAUSE I GOT TO GET UP EARLY TO MOW THE GODDAMN LAWN!

[RazielSR]

Maybe is posted around here but I've been watching this interview today and I lile the way TT behaves. It's been cool to watch .

[robocop]

Praise Tolkki, king of the dongs.

[RazielSR]

A "bit" exaggerated yes...

[Pancio]

Why most of his die-hard fans/supporters are retarded?

Anyway, someone should tell him that when you take a picture the focus should be on the main subject and not on the background, unless it's a deliberate choice.
For a self-proclaimed photographer is a bit weird not to understand even the basic theory

[robocop]

Key to the universe is Marshall combo amp.

[NeverendingAbyss]

If I had the cash I would ship it to the White House.

[robocop]

If I had the cash I would ship it to the White House.

Yes. If I had enough money I’d send Tolkki in a box to North Korea.

*drinks cup of noodles while chugging the cheapest Mexican beer*

You see...love is life and life is love..

My dear...if I don’t sell enough Avon I will lose money..

I’ve lost my soul in the sauna..into the deepest universal truths

Love is the way...love is the light

[Motha-faka]

this is Strange, timo tolkki sell all this stuff?

Esp guitars, Simfonia 7 guitar too in Russia, the tokai Guitars, his complete studio, now his Marshall amp....

maybe he have a serious trauma.... he cant fall in love with his stuff and keep it??

[robocop]

this is Strange, timo tolkki sell all this stuff?

Esp guitars, Simfonia 7 guitar too in Russia, the tokai Guitars, his complete studio, now his Marshall amp....

maybe he have a serious trauma.... he cant fall in love with his stuff and keep it??

He sells stuff a lot. Even his clothes. And asks people to do skype lessons.

[NeverendingAbyss]

He could basically go to a thrift store, get a bunch of shirts for $10, and sell them @ $40/ea. His hardcore fans will simp to anything he does/sell.

Note to self: create an OnlyFans account when famous.

[robocop]

Don’t give him any ideas!!
It seems his recipe is:
Buy the cheapest guitar
Buy the cheapest amp
Sell it to fans. Rinse and repeat anytime he wants.

[NeverendingAbyss]

Here's an idea:

https://www.belledelphinestore.com/prod ... holy-bible

[robocop]

Tolkki should shoot his next music video with Belle in place of whoever else he tries to bang at the time.

[robocop]

Ramen ain’t cheap! Wait...yes it is.
This sounds a bit high in price for what you probably get. Pancio said he just talks and little is actually even said.

I would do it just to record it with me naked asking him how his daughter from Poland is.

[ZenithMC]

"I got what it takes to teach you all my secrets."
I'm sure that Tolkki has a plethora of deep dark secrets.

"Now is your chance [...]" I tell you no lies

This sounds a bit high in price for what you probably get.

He doesn't mention how long the session is. If it's for an entire day, then that price is a steal. If it's only for an hour or two, then it's a bit above average. I know that there are some people who charge an exorbitant price of $70 per hour for guitar lessons.

But yeah, if all he does is talk about bullshit for the entire session and hardly any actual guitar lessons take place, then it's a bloody rip-off, indeed!

In all seriousness, I've been working on a full band tablature (with staff and tabs) of Strato's instrumental song, "Stratovarius", and I believe I've uncovered Tolkki's guitar "secrets" in the process. Tolkki is like lightning: he'll always follow the path of least resistance with his speedy guitar solo phrasings.

[ZenithMC]

Neat track . What do you think of Mike Oldfield or Vangelis?

I've heard of Mile Oldfield, but I've never heard of Vangelis. I haven't listened to anything from either of these two. What do you recommend I listen to from them?

Ride the Lightning had several iconic tracks, but this is the one case where I find the production quality to be lacking. Perhaps a trend to keep rock as raw as possible at the time?

I think the production is okay for 1984. I think they had an incredibly powerful guitar sound for the time. It's really the bass drum that doesn't jive with me as it tends to get buried during busy sections. Listen to the original mastering if you can. The later remasters aren't as good, but the mix is still pretty similar.

I haven't listened carefully in a while- I started listening to Metallica only a few years ago (though obviously I had heard the hits). But my impression of this album was that the first half is phenomenal and the second half just decent, and kills the momentum a bit. Is that accurate?

I think the whole album is great (yes, even "Escape" I think the verses sound cool on that song, even though the band openly hates that song with a passion. It's a pretty 80's commercial sounding chorus and I think that's what they dislike about that song). Okay, even minus "Escape", the second half is full of awesome moments, especially "The Call of Ktulu".

Can I be real here...I always liked the Ozzy albums much more. The Dio era sounds so mainstream and soft to me. The earlier albums sounded much more edgy and abrasive (Master of Reality, Sabbath Bloody Sabbath, etc). I love the evil, raw, gritty sound compared to the much more commerical Dio tunes.

The only song I really like from Master of Reality is "Children of the Grave". I think Paranoid is way better than Master of Reality. I've never listened to Dehumanizer, only Heaven and Hell and Mob Rules. I prefer Dio over Ozzy as vocalist. Not sure why you feel Mob Rules side 2 is "nothing remarkable". "Falling off the Edge of the World" is absolutely fantastic and "Over and Over" is overflowing with emotion.

[NeverendingAbyss]

Ramen ain’t cheap! Wait...yes it is.
This sounds a bit high in price for what you probably get. Pancio said he just talks and little is actually even said.

I would do it just to record it with me naked asking him how his daughter from Poland is.

So I can either get a bible signed by Belle Delphine or a skype lesson with TT for the same price