BUSH vs. KERRY

browneyedgirl · Post by **browneyedgirl** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 6:08 pm

timo the soulforged wrote:
when are the elections???

First Tuesday in November--traditional, unless its changed!

browneyedfool · Post by **browneyedfool** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 8:10 pm

It seems to me that its like 5 vs 1 already here, and there is no sense in making you guys more mad

Iraq, if anything, wasn't Bush's 'fault.' Based on the info the CIA gave him, the lunatic in Iraq - Saddam Hussein, was developing Weapons of Mass Destruction and were going to use them perhaps againt the kurds, but definitely eventually against us, whome he hated and still hates with a fever.

So we went and we didn't find any WMD's. But we did find Uranium Enrichment facilities - a sure sign in the direction he was headed towards, if you know what I mean.

___________________________

And I find it, btw, extremely offensive that you, twilight, suggest that 9/11 was staged. Did it ever occur to you that

1) Many people I know could have been a victim
2) Osama Bin laden was seen laughing on a tape the day it happened. Did we fake that too?

_____________________________

Guys, you may argue Iraq and Afghanistan were unjustified. But this is really what those muslim radical terrorists were asking for when they flew 747's in our skyscrapers.

Twilightsymphony · Post by **Twilightsymphony** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 8:47 pm

But you are right, they knew or should have known that violence will be a reaction for violence. Both sides should also know that this cant be a way to find a solution. Things are just getting worse.

browneyedfool · Post by **browneyedfool** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 10:50 pm

Well, on your last point:

1) Afghanistan - they were asking for it. Not the woman and kids (we didn't lay a finger on them anyway), but the Taliban. They killed our civilians, we kicked out their Taliban government. Fair deal IMO.

2). But the disaster that ensued during 9/11 wasn't enough! We were so desperate to not want it to happen again, and knowing that Saddam Hussein was an avid Anti-America leader, who supported the Taliban, we knew we needed to take him out.

And now that we are in Iraq, we have already handed over the government back to the people of whome it belongs - the Iraqi's. We are staying in Iraq now only for security purposes. We aren't going to abandon these poor Iraqi's and have radical's take over the country again. Thats why we need to stay in Iraq. We started something, whether you think it was justified or not aside, but retreating now would simply be backstabbing the Iraqi's and officially wasting time and money.

I hope I can get some more conservative opinions in here.

And lets also make sure that this is a friendly political discussion - so that we don't become enemies on the forum after this or anything

Twilightsymphony · Post by **Twilightsymphony** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 11:30 pm

This is a friendly political discussion - we wont become enemies on the forum or anything

Lucid Faia · Post by **Lucid Faia** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 11:43 pm

In a recent speech, Bush defended his decision to go to Iraq. "We haven't found stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction, but we know that Saddam had the capability to make them, and of his hatred for America."

....Riiiight...

Capability to make weapons and hating America. And now that Saddam is gone, there is no one left in the world who fits that description. (Dusts hands off)

</sarcasm>

Sami112 · Post by **Sami112** » Sat Jul 17, 2004 12:43 am

http://www.jibjab.com/thisland.html

antonio · Post by **antonio** » Sat Jul 17, 2004 12:46 am

Sami112 wrote:
http://www.jibjab.com/thisland.html

cool site

you have to see animation guys

NatureSound · Post by **NatureSound** » Sat Jul 17, 2004 2:51 am

browneyedfool wrote:
And now that we are in Iraq, we have already handed over the government back to the people of whome it belongs - the Iraqi's. We are staying in Iraq now only for security purposes. We aren't going to abandon these poor Iraqi's and have radical's take over the country again. Thats why we need to stay in Iraq. We started something, whether you think it was justified or not aside, but retreating now would simply be backstabbing the Iraqi's and officially wasting time and money.

I don´t going to enter here in the things I think were bad done to start the war but about that what you say....yes.
Is a bit descouraging to hear people giving opinions more "politicaly corrects", "a la mode", well acepted by some "noisy" groups not having too much information and null knowledge about history and similar experiences lived before.

I mean, skiping the diferences, i.e. Japan, after WWWII. To rebuild, to restore a safe political state and to get going industry and all the economical net again was thing of many years, seven, if I remember well. Japaneses are intelligent people and blamed to the foolish Tojo&Co. that shipped Japan to that asiatic new order madness, not to the occidentals. -That was possible too thanks to a very smart and generous man who loved and cared for their people a lot, the Emperor Hiro Hito. Deserves to be mentioned.-

Nobody has been thinking about how Germany was restored after that same war? Americans and aliates were in both countries for many years WORKING to get the actual German and Japaneses socio-political states. Has somebody here something to complain about those actions and/or against that two states today?
This is telled in gross lines.

NordicStorm · Post by **NordicStorm** » Sat Jul 17, 2004 10:35 am

And now that we are in Iraq, we have already handed over the government back to the people of whome it belongs - the Iraqi's. We are staying in Iraq now only for security purposes. We aren't going to abandon these poor Iraqi's and have radical's take over the country again. Thats why we need to stay in Iraq. We started something, whether you think it was justified or not aside, but retreating now would simply be backstabbing the Iraqi's and officially wasting time and money.

Agreed.

Look, I'm not arguing the necessity of taking out Saddam Hussein. He was a scumbag who murdered his own people and people of other countries. He should have been removed from power the minute he came into power (along with a whole bunch of other leaders around the world, as I mentioned in a previous post). Whether it's at all apt to compare it Germany and Japan remains to be seen. It can turn out well, it can turn out badly. That all comes down to how things are handled in Iraq in the near future. (It's a bit rich to accuse people of ignorance because they do not feel it's a valid to compare postwar Iraq to the aftermath of WWII, though.)

This is not the issue however. The issue is why Bush went to war and how this war is at all relevant to the war on terror. And well...he went to war under false pretenses (no WMDs, no urgent threat to America) and he's seriously undermining the war on terror by sending troops to a country that has very litte to do with Al-Qaeda or bin Ladin. I'm still saying the US should look no further than Saudi Arabia. It would appear the House has finally decided to cut foreign aid to Saudi Arabia (foreign aid to one of the richest countries in the world? Now that's laughable), so that's a step in the right direction. I'm not suggesting a military operation in Saudi Arabia (US militaries in Mecca? Doesn't sound like a good idea...), but they could be put under a litte more pressure to assist the US.

Luca · Post by **Luca** » Sun Jul 18, 2004 11:38 am

Well, first of all don't take what I say so seriously, because I'm not so informed about the last news on Iraq.
What happened from 11th september is in my opinion something "normal". The crisis of the world's economy, the sense of revenge in american people... It's human nature mixed with society mechanisms...
There are a lot of people in the world, and unfortunately humans are NOT a friendly race. Humans are worse than animals, because they have the same instinct of surviving better than the others but a lot of brain to use every thing to reach their goal...
Living in europe, U.S.A. or Japan and Australia is easy nowadays. You start your life there, as a baby, as a child , as a teen-ager, as an adult and everything around you will let you become what you are, and let you believe in what you see and in what they say. Life, love, respect, smile and doing good things are the best way to live. Starting a life in Afghanistan will lead human into hate, into wrong values (and fuck to whoever thinks that everyone have their tradition...), same for Iraq and many other countries... What U.S.A. did in Afghanistan and in Iraq was good for all the world, even if their main mission was not to make the peace shine in those poor country, but make money on it and destroy the 2 most dangerous (for america) terrorists communities...

After the 2 towers fell down, many civilians of Iraq, of Afghanistan and other muslims were joyful and happy... Do you remember all those women and children singing in front of many videocameras? They were having a party because thousands of innocent americans died... Well I remember them very well, and if they are now dead, I'm only happy. They are ill, they are like crazy machines programmed to hate people like us that did nothing wrong. It's not their fault, because they learn since the beginning of their life to hate, hate western people, and to kil in the name of fucking religion ... Now what we, as europeans and americans HAVE to do there, beside money, is to give the new-born children the right values to respect and to live togheter, and to build their own land! Fucking terrorists have to die, and of course they can't lead a state... Do you know what Saddam Hussein did to his people?
I don't know if Bush or Kerry, but noone should retire from Iraq and Afghanistan now...

Twilightsymphony · Post by **Twilightsymphony** » Sun Jul 18, 2004 12:30 pm

Luca wrote:
What happened from 11th september is in my opinion something "normal". The crisis of the world's economy, the sense of revenge in american people... It's human nature mixed with society mechanisms...
There are a lot of people in the world, and unfortunately humans are NOT a friendly race. Humans are worse than animals, because they have the same instinct of surviving better than the others but a lot of brain to use every thing to reach their goal...

• Kinda agree...

Luca wrote:
Living in europe, U.S.A. or Japan and Australia is easy nowadays. You start your life there, as a baby, as a child , as a teen-ager, as an adult and everything around you will let you become what you are, and let you believe in what you see and in what they say. Life, love, respect, smile and doing good things are the best way to live.

• Yeah? What about slave trade and prostitution?
What about the people who havent an equal standard because we are using them as resources? Where is respect and smile when we arent talking about ourselves?

Luca wrote:
Starting a life in Afghanistan will lead human into hate, into wrong values (and fuck to whoever thinks that everyone have their tradition...), same for Iraq and many other countries...

• I actually think that history has shown that christian nations are way more agressive... crusades and stuff...
And the Koran is actually quite similar to the Bible, theres no point were actually is written "kill all other religions", it is used today as a weapon like the christians used the bible 800 years ago, but this isnt necessarily the populations fault, but merely based on some warlords who fight for their enrichment...

Starting a life in Afghanistan is a life of poverty, the opinions about the reasons are different, ut i think that the base for getting influenced is much more present like people who dont suffer...

Luca wrote:
What U.S.A. did in Afghanistan and in Iraq was good for all the world, even if their main mission was not to make the peace shine in those poor country, but make money on it and destroy the 2 most dangerous (for america) terrorists communities...

• Where are the proves? I cant see a direct relation between those people in this countries to terrorists attacks and i wont believe everything that is said.
Both countries weren´t of any international danger. There were rational reasons for "helping" them though. Unfortunately it wasnt granted by the UN in case of Iraq, and unfortunately it didnt work out. I think the potential number of terrorists was even raised.

Luca wrote:
After the 2 towers fell down, many civilians of Iraq, of Afghanistan and other muslims were joyful and happy...

• This may have happened, but there were proofs that some of those videos were faked, some are real but were taken out of their context... news tv sucks...

Luca wrote:
Do you remember all those women and children singing in front of many videocameras? They were having a party because thousands of innocent americans died... Well I remember them very well, and if they are now dead, I'm only happy. They are ill, they are like crazy machines programmed to hate people like us that did nothing wrong.

• WTF?
Are you better for wishing them to be dead?

Did we nothing wrong? We did, no one hates others without reasons, like i said before.. we were a threat for many other nations since many years, we just "help" countries for our own use, "western" products are produced in third world countries way under our standard of workplace situation and payment. And you have to see things from a different point of view. Iraq was under UN resolutions for many years, there was an embargo for goods, most help that was send actually ended up in Saddam Husseins control. There was tv propaganda since years (even more than in america

) and people simply believed that we were those who threaten them which is supported by our ignorant behaviour...

Luca wrote:
It's not their fault, because they learn since the beginning of their life to hate, hate western people, and to kil in the name of fucking religion ...

• If its not their fault then why do you wish them dead?

I think the aspect of religious motivation is way to overrated. I read an article were several terrorists who were caught or who survived their attacks with mutilations were inteviewed, and they were not that dazzled at all. Many dont have any perspective in life, and this is also the fault of western nations, not just some freaky dictators. Although we surely cant reduce the number of reasons to two or three and surely this isnt an excuse for killing innocent people

Luca wrote:
Now what we, as europeans and americans HAVE to do there, beside money, is to give the new-born children the right values to respect and to live togheter, and to build their own land!

• Build their own land with our construction design? How nice...
Why are our values the only right ones?

Luca wrote:
Fucking terrorists have to die, and of course they can't lead a state...

• Terrorists have to be prevented from becoming terrorists. Thats more difficult than killing them, but also more effective.
They really shouldnt lead a country though

Luca wrote:
Do you know what Saddam Hussein did to his people?

• Yes, but is he representive for a whole religion, for a whole country? No, because he was a criminal. And we shouldnt forget who allowed him to become a dictator. His disempowerment was the right thing, but why ignoring the influence he may have had on many people?

Luca wrote:
I don't know if Bush or Kerry, but noone should retire from Iraq and Afghanistan now...

• True.

browneyedfool · Post by **browneyedfool** » Sun Jul 18, 2004 7:19 pm

Firstly, great post Luca.
Secondly. No one should be mad at bush for going to war under false pretenses.

If anything, blame the intelligence who gave him the 'wrong' information.

Oh that intelligence - they really messed up - they said that Hussein had weapons of Mass Destruction - and all we found was ANTRHAX AND URANIUM ENRICHMENT facilities.

Bush really did the right decision based on what information he had. I think after 9/11, he wasn't willing to take any chances with terrorists anymore. I don't blame him. I think he did the right thing.

Neorave · Post by **Neorave** » Mon Jul 19, 2004 1:31 am

WOW, I never knew that most people from other countries were so interested in this presidential race.

Lightyear · Post by **Lightyear** » Tue Jul 20, 2004 4:48 pm

Luca · Post by **Luca** » Sun Jul 25, 2004 10:49 am

Twilightsymphony wrote:
Luca wrote:

Luca wrote:
Living in europe, U.S.A. or Japan and Australia is easy nowadays. You start your life there, as a baby, as a child , as a teen-ager, as an adult and everything around you will let you become what you are, and let you believe in what you see and in what they say. Life, love, respect, smile and doing good things are the best way to live.
• Yeah? What about slave trade and prostitution?
What about the people who havent an equal standard because we are using them as resources? Where is respect and smile when we arent talking about ourselves?

Ehm, they are part of the society, at least prostitution, but the main thing I mean is that we know that all those things are bad things. For middle-east people, women are objects and the most violent ones are the leaders... and they accept it as right....

Luca wrote:
Starting a life in Afghanistan will lead human into hate, into wrong values (and fuck to whoever thinks that everyone have their tradition...), same for Iraq and many other countries...
• I actually think that history has shown that christian nations are way more agressive... crusades and stuff...
And the Koran is actually quite similar to the Bible, theres no point were actually is written "kill all other religions", it is used today as a weapon like the christians used the bible 800 years ago, but this isnt necessarily the populations fault, but merely based on some warlords who fight for their enrichment...

I don't agree now. We are talking about NOWADAYS!! 800 years ago... who cares?? Even nazists where complete shit and it was 60 years ago only... But now that we built a society based on order and respect to other nations, I'm not scared that maybe France will attack Italy or U.S.A. will enslave Europe...
I'm scared that fucking muslim terrorists will kill other thousands of people in the name of Allah and their religious shit... Anyway, I think every religion is a shit...

Luca wrote:
After the 2 towers fell down, many civilians of Iraq, of Afghanistan and other muslims were joyful and happy...
• This may have happened, but there were proofs that some of those videos were faked, some are real but were taken out of their context... news tv sucks...

It was Al Jazeera to spread those videos, I think they are true... and they had even flags of U.S.A. burning, and messages in english...

Luca wrote:
Do you remember all those women and children singing in front of many videocameras? They were having a party because thousands of innocent americans died... Well I remember them very well, and if they are now dead, I'm only happy. They are ill, they are like crazy machines programmed to hate people like us that did nothing wrong.
• WTF?
Are you better for wishing them to be dead?

Did we nothing wrong? We did, no one hates others without reasons, like i said before.. we were a threat for many other nations since many years, we just "help" countries for our own use, "western" products are produced in third world countries way under our standard of workplace situation and payment. And you have to see things from a different point of view. Iraq was under UN resolutions for many years, there was an embargo for goods, most help that was send actually ended up in Saddam Husseins control. There was tv propaganda since years (even more than in america ) and people simply believed that we were those who threaten them which is supported by our ignorant behaviour...

Well, if the videos are true, seeing someone having party on dead american people, I would not be sad if they died. Those americans could be my relatives, my friends...
We didn't do wrong. I mean, comunism would be the perfection for human living but unfortunately it cannot work because we are in a jungle, we are competitors... So, our nature make us follow personal joy and happiness, and we don't care if the chinese people are breaking their backs producing Nike shoes... Of course I'm sad for them, but I can do nothing really... And anyway, they have a job there....
What the terrorists are doing is a war against powerful countries because they saw that their fucking dumb ideas of society is a complete fool... and they are angry to those that are leading the perfect societies nowadays....

Luca wrote:
Now what we, as europeans and americans HAVE to do there, beside money, is to give the new-born children the right values to respect and to live togheter, and to build their own land!
• Build their own land with our construction design? How nice...
Why are our values the only right ones?

They are the right ones, because they are based on peace and respect of other country-mates, women, animals. Children have to play, study and learn to be kind and correct. I think it's right. More than "children have to learn to fight, to shoot with AK-47 and to hate western people" "women are objects with a hole" and so on.... Don't you think?? I'm not saying that we have to fuck their tradition, but we should replace all those viruses that their mentality has.... I mean, in a good and soft way!!

Luca wrote:
Fucking terrorists have to die, and of course they can't lead a state...
• Terrorists have to be prevented from becoming terrorists. Thats more difficult than killing them, but also more effective.
They really shouldnt lead a country though

I agree...

[
Luca wrote:
I don't know if Bush or Kerry, but noone should retire from Iraq and Afghanistan now...
• True.

skar · Post by **skar** » Tue Jul 27, 2004 10:06 am

Bush is the worst thing what has happened to world peace since hitler!

Man is so stupid and so conservative
f.ex best way to stop aids is to lack of sex. Who is going to belive that

:uzi: Bush (Joke)

MAJINDIEGO · Post by **MAJINDIEGO** » Tue Jul 27, 2004 3:40 pm

What i´ve seen here: Typical US Excuse.
"They were asking for it"...what a joke!
I give my soul, my money, everything i own, to the person that shows me the paperwork, that gives legitimate power for United States to interfere on other Countries...Can´t you people see that the Countries are not asking for US to save them...from Taliban nor Saddam?
What do you think? That the FMI (i don´t know that shit in English terms) money borrowed to those Countries give you the right to do that? That´s an International Bank, not a fucking country!! (even thou they´re commanded by US)...but it´s an International Fund!!
Do you want to know how freedom is owned? how is it conquered? By your own! By fighting! You can´t sit on your ass and ask US to save yourself.
Taliban and Saddam were cruel governments...for sure...but it was up to the Afganisthan and Iraq people to change it.
US excuse is WACK! is LAME!
You can´t force your way through those things...
Either way, i´m sorry for those who died in 11/9, but that doesn´t give you the right to invade and devastate a whole nation.
What´s United Nations for?
US passed over them too...do you guys know what that, in terms, mean?
United States (better off, BUSH) said a nice ´fuck you´ to all the rest of the nations and attacked anyway...
That´s not how it should be done.
After the attack, there should be a proper investigation, which could lead to the main troublestarter, which should have been judged by the UN Security Concil...and then, if they found it was a proper thing to do, attack.
That´s why people hate US so much...you folks don´t respect the rules, are arrogant, and believe those are only to be applied on a one-way...from you to us...but that doesn´t work this way...

Lucid Faia · Post by **Lucid Faia** » Tue Jul 27, 2004 6:27 pm

All I can tell you is that the American people, for the most part, were not for this bullshit in the middle east. Don't blame the American people. Blame the American government. You don't like them? Good. We don't like them either.

Next person who blames the American people for something their idiot administration did is getting flamed. Peace out.

Also,

Lightyear: Nice V-Rock avatar.
Neorave: Stop breaking the law... one of my favorite JC quotes. Nice.

Twilightsymphony · Post by **Twilightsymphony** » Tue Jul 27, 2004 8:41 pm

Lucid Faia wrote:
Don't blame the American people. Blame the American government.

True.

theflyingfinn · Post by **theflyingfinn** » Tue Jul 27, 2004 11:43 pm

Lucid Faia wrote:
All I can tell you is that the American people, for the most part, were not for this bullshit in the middle east. Don't blame the American people. Blame the American government. You don't like them? Good. We don't like them either.

Well, if you don't like your government either, how did they get the job? Obviously, there were more idiots voting for Bush than intellectuals voting for Gore while the rest were too ignorant to even bother have an opinion and go down to vote.

The American people is very much to blame for that monkey sitting in the Oval Office making fatal decisions. I've heard 80% of all voters don't really know who John Kerry is and what he stands for.

Shurik · Post by **Shurik** » Wed Jul 28, 2004 8:35 am

MAJINDIEGO wrote:
"Taliban and Saddam were cruel governments...for sure...but it was up to the Afganisthan and Iraq people to change it."

If you are sure that Iraqi or Afghani people could actually otherthrow Saddam or Taliban, you're obviously don't know what are you talking about. The only way to overthrow someone like Saddam is to drag him out of his palace and shoot/cut/lynch him ...This is how change of governments work in these places. To remind you, Saddam had 99.9 % ov votes in "elections" and the 0.1%, together with relatives, friends and pets, dissapeared soon after ... So make it 100% ... Same was going on in Afghanistan ...

MAJINDIEGO · Post by **MAJINDIEGO** » Wed Jul 28, 2004 3:05 pm

Shurik wrote:
MAJINDIEGO wrote:
"Taliban and Saddam were cruel governments...for sure...but it was up to the Afganisthan and Iraq people to change it."

If you are sure that Iraqi or Afghani people could actually otherthrow Saddam or Taliban, you're obviously don't know what are you talking about. The only way to overthrow someone like Saddam is to drag him out of his palace and shoot/cut/lynch him ...This is how change of governments work in these places. To remind you, Saddam had 99.9 % ov votes in "elections" and the 0.1%, together with relatives, friends and pets, dissapeared soon after ... So make it 100% ... Same was going on in Afghanistan ...

don´t mean so naive, my dear...people all over the world had overcome their Tyrants in the past...it´s NOT up to US to judge who´s best to them...that´s THEIR government, that´s THEIR country...that´s THEIR Destiny...your line of thought is the same the stupid American Government (you´re right Lucid) follows...getting into something which isn´t of their business.
If you think that an international force should interfere on other Countries, then, no way US should have attacked Afg and Iraq, as the UN Security Council had voted against it.

Twilightsymphony · Post by **Twilightsymphony** » Wed Jul 28, 2004 5:34 pm

MAJINDIEGO wrote:
...no way US should have attacked Afg and Iraq, as the UN Security Council had voted against it.

Well .. not exactly

MAJINDIEGO · Post by **MAJINDIEGO** » Wed Jul 28, 2004 5:59 pm

Twilightsymphony wrote:
MAJINDIEGO wrote:
...no way US should have attacked Afg and Iraq, as the UN Security Council had voted against it.
Well .. not exactly

you see, US had teared apart all international laws with that attitude...people are too blind to see how serious that decision was...if it was to another Country, there would be tremendous retaliation...

stratowerner · Post by **stratowerner** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 8:38 pm

They are all Acters with their 100 million dollar campians,And Bush what can i say the war with Irak is not good,he began the war for wrong reasons.

Twilightsymphony · Post by **Twilightsymphony** » Tue Aug 10, 2004 12:57 am

ZlotnikTheTroll wrote:I have heard that in Alabama they drive around in trailers and collect votes because some of the people live in remote locations (like a junkyard) THIS IS NOT AN INSULT BUT A FACT. I hope kerry wins tho!

Why are you doing that?

MaFiaBoY · Post by **MaFiaBoY** » Tue Aug 10, 2004 1:00 am

Twilightsymphony wrote:
ZlotnikTheTroll wrote:I have heard that in Alabama they drive around in trailers and collect votes because some of the people live in remote locations (like a junkyard) THIS IS NOT AN INSULT BUT A FACT. I hope kerry wins tho!
Why are you doing that?

Just have a look at his nick...

MAJINDIEGO · Post by **MAJINDIEGO** » Tue Aug 10, 2004 1:04 am

at least the dude didn´t even bother to wait for feedback...he labelled himself already...

Twilightsymphony · Post by **Twilightsymphony** » Tue Aug 10, 2004 1:14 am

MaFiaBoY wrote:
Twilightsymphony wrote:
ZlotnikTheTroll wrote:I have heard that in Alabama they drive around in trailers and collect votes because some of the people live in remote locations (like a junkyard) THIS IS NOT AN INSULT BUT A FACT. I hope kerry wins tho!
Why are you doing that?
Just have a look at his nick...

I know.. i just want to know why someone is offering so much time to bully someone he/she hasnt even met personally

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