Stratovarius Community

Well, I finally got around to reading most of this thread. I did highlight some points that I would like to comment on, but I wish that I had more time to read these.

Before I get people pissed off, let me give you my credentials (for those that don't know me very well). I have been raised on Lutheran-Christian beliefs. I grew up going to a Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod based church. I have been studying the Scriptures for the past few years at a private Lutheran-Christian college. I have a good understanding of the teachings of most denominations, as well as the theological field. So, that's basically my knowledge of religion and theology. Basically, I wanna speak the truth here.

Ok, let's get to the comments:

Dawn_is_Here wrote:I think that since ancient times, when mankind started to get "civilized", religion was a way to keep people under control using fear, and as BEG said, even nowadays certain people maybe act in some way just because they still fear a "divine punishment".

I hear this a lot (and I mean A LOT). Probably because we worry that we don't have enough freedom. Think about this: we are a sinful race. If we didn't have laws, like the 10 Commandments, God's creation would be in ruins.

stratoplayer wrote:Considering that in practical terms god is nothing more than a notion of mankind, I would be happy if it were common knowledge that there CANT be a god. but people will always have self denial if they WANT to believe so. But I do realize it would mean chaos on a massive scale in many parts of the world.

Considering that we have a lot of resources that prove that there is a God. I don't think it's a problem of "Self-Denial", I think people saw the facts and thought "Wow, maybe there is a god."

stratoplayer wrote:But let's be realistic, human beings need certain constants and guides to hold their life together, and while athiests (yay me ) don't need religion or have an equivalent for it MOST people do. So while atheists may rejoice and whatnot, many wouldn't be too thrilled about it.

This isn't what Christianity is about. Christianity is not about standards and rules, it's about being a servant of God, a disciple of Christ.

miditek wrote:Unfortunately, it seems that the mere mention of God's name causes the smug factor to go through the roof with some atheists.

Indeed! Just look in the Old Testament. Why do you think the word LORD is in there? It's because during the time of post-Exodus, the meer sight of God's name brought wrath upon Israel. So they used the name Yahweh, which in today's Bibles are "the LORD". (NOTE: Don't quote me on this yet, I need to verify my notes to see if I am correct on this.)

miditek wrote:Only toothless, tobacco chewing rednecks from the American South even believe in God anymore, oui?

Am I hearing this right? You're saying that people from the southern states only believe in God? Don't blast me on this, I may've read that wrong or out of context.

straothawk wrote:life is not possible without God. Existence is not possible without God.

You hit it right on the mark! God is the creator of heaven and the earth. In fact, there would not even be people that turn to atheism if it wasn't for God.

miditek wrote:The Bible is filled with descriptions of what to expect in the last days, and I can assure you, it was not illustrated as a paradise. It was much more like what is happening now. Perhaps, it is mankind that has abandoned God, as opposed to the other way around.

Indeed, however it would be a thousand times worse. But, you just can't interpret John's Revelation that way. The book of Revelations is a very, very difficult book to interpret. You have to look at it from very different points-of-view.

NordicStorm wrote:Of course, you're well aware Jesus is considered a very important prophet and a messenger of God in Islam.

Not only that, but He's God in the flesh.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it...The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth." (John 1:1-5, 14)

NordicStorm wrote:No, we good Christians only kill abortion doctors and rape choir boys. Let's not play that game, it's just stupid.

Yay for Roman Catholicism. This is why I'm Lutheran

NeonVomit wrote:One thing that saddens me however, is that Jesus was obviously an extraordinary individual, who had some truly revolutionary concepts. Unfortunately, most 'Christians' totally overlook what he actually said, and listen to what the Church tells them.

I truly agree with you there, NeonVomit. I have taken a couple of classes on the best ways to interpret the Scriptures, and it breaks my heart when I hear some crazy Christian organization use a Bible passage way out of context.

BEG wrote:@NeonVomit, if the Bible is true you will get your chance. We all will.

He' been given his chance from the very start!

Well, those are my highlights. I think I may've spoken too quickly on some of the comments. But I hope I have given you guys a good idea here.

miditek wrote:Did the Jews kill Christ, or did they not?

Technically, it was all of our sin that caused Christ's death. We should've been the ones to be hanged on the cross. But because of Jesus' love for us, He was nailed there, because He loved us and wanted us to be with Him in heaven.

Neorave wrote:

miditek wrote:Did the Jews kill Christ, or did they not?

Technically, it was all of our sin that caused Christ's death. We should've been the ones to be hanged on the cross. But because of Jesus' love for us, He was nailed there, because He loved us and wanted us to be with Him in heaven.

That was basically a rhetorical question to NordicStorm. The imams can't have it both ways; criticizing the crucifixion as fiction, and yet still blaming the Jews for it.

also, when mentioning "the Jews", I do believe that the Sanhedrin, not the masses, are implied here, in regards to who ordered whom to do what.

miditek wrote:Unfortunately, it seems that the mere mention of God's name causes the smug factor to go through the roof with some atheists.

Neorave wrote:Indeed! Just look in the Old Testament. Why do you think the word LORD is in there? It's because during the time of post-Exodus, the meer sight of God's name brought wrath upon Israel. So they used the name Yahweh, which in today's Bibles are "the LORD". (NOTE: Don't quote me on this yet, I need to verify my notes to see if I am correct on this.)

miditek wrote:Only toothless, tobacco chewing rednecks from the American South even believe in God anymore, oui?

Neorave wrote:Am I hearing this right? You're saying that people from the southern states only believe in God? Don't blast me on this, I may've read that wrong or out of context.

The comment about the South was primarily satirical, and shouldn't be misinterpreted as the South having a monopoly on Christianity. It was basically a bit of criticism of leftist euro-elitists, and smug Prius-driving atheists at Berkeley.

NordicStorm had also asked how one chews tobacco if you have lost your teeth. There are two ways; a) Put in your wooden dentures. or -

b), If your wooden dentures are not readily available, you can always switch from Redman (chewing tobacco) to W.E. Garrett (Scotch snuff)- which was a favorite of my grandfather and his sisters.

miditek wrote:The Bible is filled with descriptions of what to expect in the last days, and I can assure you, it was not illustrated as a paradise. It was much more like what is happening now. Perhaps, it is mankind that has abandoned God, as opposed to the other way around.

Neorave wrote:Indeed, however it would be a thousand times worse. But, you just can't interpret John's Revelation that way. The book of Revelations is a very, very difficult book to interpret. You have to look at it from very different points-of-view.

There are many verses in the books of Matthew, I John, Ezekiel, Daniel, and Zecheriah that closely correlate with the events that are described in Revelations.

There are certain Christian denominations that regard the Book of Revelations, and not to mention Hell itself, as completely allegorical. However, that is their privilege, if they wish to believe that way. Some of those same denominations also claim that only they will inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, incidentally. I've tried to find the theological basis for that, but have yet to find a preferred denomination yet.

miditek wrote:There are certain Christian denominations that regard the Book of Revelations, and not to mention Hell itself, as completely allegorical. However, that is their privilege, if they wish to believe that way. Some of those same denominations also claim that only they will inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, incidentally. I've tried to find the theological basis for that, but have yet to find a preferred denomination yet.

Yet, in that sense, they still misinterpret the text.

And, if you wanna find a denomination that bases their theology on "only we will inherit the Kingdom", look at Jehova's Witnesses. What a bunch of sad people, I must say!

Just an observation: have noticed in my 5-year forum career(on Euro-forums) that whenever Christians, USAers(especially Southern)are bashed to high heaven&insulted, whenever we complain we are told "don't take it serious" "don't take it personal" "just ignore it" "if you don't like it you know where the door is"etc, BUT, if it is the other way around(USAers criticizing SA, Europe, etc)---I see peoples posts deleted, warnings given, etc.
There IS a difference in how discussions operate on Euro-based forums. Only a blind person cannot see it.
Of course, the argument is,"Its their forum&they can run it how they want to".

BTW, great discussion&I think it is pretty balanced now.

Do I dare say that this thread is murdered?

Neorave wrote:Do I dare say that this thread is murdered?

Only if we want it to be! However, the question posed, like I said, is just a hypothetical one&given to personal insight and opinion. This is a question we have to ask ourselves, and maybe of society.
I know the 10 commandments was given us to help preserve society, but what would have happened if the Commandments were not given to us? Also, how long did society exist BEFORE the Commandments?

browneyedgirl wrote:I know the 10 commandments was given us to help preserve society, but what would have happened if the Commandments were not given to us? Also, how long did society exist BEFORE the Commandments?

Well, because of all the sin that Israel was committing, you can realize why God gave us the Ten Commandments. I'll explain more, but I'm in a middle of a class right now.

miditek wrote:"Whistling through the graveyard" is apparently a favorite pastime in many parts of the world these days, particularly in Europe. Stalin did this even as he signed off on the Nazi-Soviet pact, and only to be engaged in ferocious combat not long thereafter.

I have no idea what you're saying here.

That was self-deprecating humor, wrapped in a thin cloak of irony. My initial invocation of the word oui was simple sarcasm. You didn't pick up on it, I guess.

Speaking French is something I would never have pride in.

Yeah, I didn't pick up on it, I guess.

It is unfortunate, perhaps, that e-mail does not always translate or provide an effective way to express the tone of sarcasm in one's voice. This was not intended (as your assessment would seem to indicate)- as some sort of academic "pole vaulting", but was simple satire of the EU, as well as their atheist and Pagan allies. I'm well aware of atheists non-beliefs, as well as Pagan leanings. Moreover, public acknowledgement of God certainly does not constitute a theocracy.

Noted. Peculiar shorthand, but alright. I disagree with your assessment of the EU, but we've already established that, I think.

NordicStorm wrote:You assume too much about my having no knowledge of foreign languages though.

I said a foreign language, French.

Really, we are talking about two dramatically different concepts here. The Muslim Jesus is not accorded the status of Deity, unlike the Christian version. That is a significant theological difference. In fact, it is "replacement theology" from a Christian viewpoint. The bulk of what is written about Jesus in the Koran directly contradicts what Jesus Himself claimed to be, which is the Son of God.

...which doesn't contradict that Jesus does, in fact, exist in the Muslim faith.

Muslims also believe that the Old and New Testaments of the Bible came from God, but again, the Koran is intended to function as a vehicle of replacement theology because the former testaments were somehow 'corrupted'. So which is it? Old and New are legitimate scripture or corrupt and misguided epistles and allegories?

...which is relevant, how exactly?

Sura 4 157 claims that the crucifixion itself was a falsehood or a lie; yet you will see many moderm imams and clerics criticizing the Jews for killing Christ. Well, which part of that story is true? Did the Jews kill Christ, or did they not?

...so, Jesus does figure prominently in Islam?

My Muslim friends often say, "Sorry, no offense man, but this business about Jesus being able to forgive your sins is complete bullshit." I then hear about how he was an important prophet, yet they cannot recite anything important that He was supposed to have said.

Well, I guess if Scandinavia is "Christian in name only", does your Muslim friends thus qualify as "Muslim in name only"? But I will commend you for befriending Muslims, despite their supposed radical jihadist tendencies!

If casting doubt on my own theological and eschatological knowledge and experience provides you with some sense of moral or intellectual superiority, than by all means, please do so. You are really starting to sound a lot like Baghdad Bob.

I lay no claim to any superiority. You write a bit sloppily, I misunderstood what you were saying. No biggie. Happens to the best of us.

How much do you know about Islam?

Some. Obviously not enough to tell them to move back to the desert, but...

How many Muslims do you know and interact with on a daily basis?

3 - 4

When does Ramandan start?

This year? End of September, I think. It's the ninth(or tenth?) month of the Muslim calendar.

When does it end?

A month later.

What must a good Muslim do during this period?

Fast.

How frequently do the Muslims you know discuss Jesus?

Unknown. In fairness sake, I'm unaware of how often they plot to kill me as well.

Just what is this Sunni vs. Shiite thing all about?

The ultrashort version: Muhammad's successor.

What is a Dhmmmi?

A non-Muslim living in a Muslim state.

What are the five pillars of Islam?

Testimony, prayer, charity, fasting, pilgrimage.

Who is the Mahdi?

A descendant of Muhammad. Will in the end times establish a fair kingdom on earth prior to the judgement.

Read the Koran lately?

A few years ago. Not my favourite read. In Swedish, no less!

How many times a day must a Muslim pray?

Five.

What day of the week is the Muslim Sabbath?

Fridays.

What determines if food complies with Halal guidelines?

How it's slaughtered, simliar to Kosher

It's great that the world has you to assist in policing the thoughts of others, and not to mention to tell other people how or what to think about the opinions or comments of others. Great. Everyone now knows you successfully passed your PC-101 course at university.

I flunked that course, actually.

But I thought I was cowering under the bed with fear; and now I'm ready to launch the Fourth Reich, or at least, the Second Crusade? I'll call former Lord Mayor Manfred Rommel in Stuttgart tonight to check on the progress of our battle plans for tomorrow's world domination.

Of course, you'll defer the actual warring to your leaders. Just keep in mind I want Poland, and NeonVomit got dibs on Denmark!

There's so much evil in the world- that we don't even have time to worry about what's going on in the other hot spots- such as the Congo or Ivory Coast. Darfur- no, not important, at least not right now; we first must stop homophobia!

Tell that to Matthew Sheppard. Your feelings about homophobia are duly noted. I'm glad someone is finally taking notice of the genocide in Sudan, though!

No, not at all. I wouldn't accuse you of that, although there are actually some other people that need no introduction that do come to mind, and would have no problem with that idea.

No, really, feel free to be a bigot. As long as there are Muslim terrorists out there, it's perfectly okay if we hate all Muslims, right?

Thank you, St. Nord, I am sure that world is a much better place now.

Oh, I'm a saint now? Just a few posts ago I was a "Christian in name only." Thanks for the promotion!

Besides, if you were to try and counter every bigoted statement that had ever been made on this forum, you would be typing well into your retirement years.

True enough.

So essentially, my alleged bigotry is worse than that of a radical jihadist.

Nope. I didn't realise radical jihadism gives one carte blanche (there's that French again! Aaargh!) to be a bigot, though.

Morality is so much clearer when it gets routed through your filter. al-Jazeera must have placed a satellite dish too close to your house, and its radiation is affecting what you type!

I really hit a raw nerve there, didn't I?

Taking Tehran and Damascus to task for their activities and holding them accountable now is apparently is a far worse notion than Israel being blown off of the map.

On the contrary. I just don't understand how this world war you're hyping is going to make anyone, including Israel, safer.

For all the talk of the horrors of bigotry, I'd love to see your government nominate a foreign minister of African descent, or perhaps a defense minister of Asian extraction.

I would too. I didn't realise you were a government, though.

Thanks for setting the parameters of polite conversation, as well as the reminder and tips on what it takes to be PC. I'm sure that all of the altar boys that have been abused are jumping for joy.

You lost me here. Are you saying it's okay to be anti-Christian and spew anti-Christian bigotry because of pedophile priests?

While you are waxing philosophical about fairness, there are at least a thousand or more imams at this very moment that are reminding the faithful of Muhammed's words; "Negotiate with your enemy until you are strong enough to destroy him."

Aah, back to fear mongering then.

Sounds like an al-Qaida recruting infommercial, if there ever was one. The only real fear that I have is running out of ammunition when the shit finally does hit the fan over here. Should I standardize on 5.56mm NATO, 7.62mm Warsaw Pact, or 5.45mm Warsaw Pact? Decisions, decisions.

Okay, okay, we get it, you're not afraid, you're Rambo. Good luck with that summer blockbuster of yours.

Again, holding Tehran and Damascus accountable now does not constitute a declaration of war against 1.4 billion Muslims. The imams have already declared that the war on terror is a war on Islam itself. My Muslim friends have also said; "what is this war on terror? That's a stupid assessment. This is a religious war, anyway. How can Bush be so stupid as to label it otherwise?"

Holding to account is one thing, telling people they ought to move back to the desert is another. Or claiming that a majority of them aren't productive citizens. Still, I'm not quite sure why you would befriend people who apparently have sworn to destroy you and your way of life. It's very Sun Tzu of you.

Christians also live with the belief of the ultimate victory of good over evil in the end. That is something that a Christian looks forward to. If I were afraid of Muslims in general,

Oh, I see. You're actually looking forward to the apocalypse and seek to hasten its arrival. So this obsession of yours is not because of fear, it's just a general desire to tell us all how we are on the brink of extinction. Okay then. Well, in that case, thanks for your public service, I won't have to bother paying the phone bill then.

I certainly would not work with them (as well as have others for clients) on an almost daily basis. I would not answer their questions about Christianity, either. I would not steeply discount my normal fees to my Muslim business partners, either.

Is this before or after you tell them to move back to the desert?

I'm glad to see that someone knows what's controlling my life. Post some comments critical about radical Islam? Now I'm a bigot. Too many Euros think that they have a monopoly on PC speech- to paraphrase Donald Rumsfeld, "goodness gracious me! I guess they've never heard of Nancy Pelosi or Harry Reid!"

"Critical"? Sure. There's criticism. Which I have no issue with, and in fact probably agree with much of it.
Then there's telling people that a majority of them aren't productive citizens and they ought to move back to the desert.

I will concede that it's possible you're not actually a bigot, you just expressed yourself rather clumsily (or even the remote possiblity that I read it clumsily, I've been down with some nasty bug for a couple of days [Karma, no doubt!], so everything is a bit of a blur), in which case my reaction was unnecessarily harsh. It was obviously unfair of me to jump to conclusions about you based on what you were writing. Of course, I'm held hostage by atheists and wiccans and pagans and muslims and christians in name only and french people alike, the pressure clearly must have gotten to me.

miditek wrote:"Whistling through the graveyard" is apparently a favorite pastime in many parts of the world these days, particularly in Europe. Stalin did this even as he signed off on the Nazi-Soviet pact, and only to be engaged in ferocious combat not long thereafter.

NordicStorm wrote:[I have no idea what you're saying here.

"Whistling through the graveyard" was originally a Churchillian expression that was used to describe Stalin's refusal to accept the reality that war was coming between Germany and the Soviet Union.

We have returned to that point in history once again, in regards to radical Islam, and there are plenty of people that believe that hiding from or ignoring it will somehow make it go away.

Neorave wrote:

browneyedgirl wrote:I know the 10 commandments was given us to help preserve society, but what would have happened if the Commandments were not given to us? Also, how long did society exist BEFORE the Commandments?

Well, because of all the sin that Israel was committing, you can realize why God gave us the Ten Commandments. I'll explain more, but I'm in a middle of a class right now.

Unless I'm mistaken, the Ten Commandments actually predated the ancient State of Israel. There were given to Moses (at Mount Sinai) shortly after the Exodus from Egypt, and before the Israelis had reached the promised land.

Because of their sin and disobedience, God swore in His anger (as there was no higher authority to swear to) that this generation would not reach the promised land, and they wandered the desert for forty years- Moses saw a glimpse of the land, but Joshua was the leader by the time the journey was completed.

Also, to help @beg with her question, I believe that the Ten Commandments, in addition to the rest of the laws, were given to us to illustrate how far mankind is separated from God's ideal standard of perfection.

St. Paul admonished that if we are guilty of breaking one of the laws, than we are guilty of breaking all of them- which I believe is a clear warning against legalism. That was a trap that the Sanhedrin and other rabbis and scribes had definitely fallen into, particularly during the time of Christ.

miditek wrote:"Whistling through the graveyard" was originally a Churchillian expression that was used to describe Stalin's refusal to accept the reality that war was coming between Germany and the Soviet Union.

We have returned to that point in history once again, in regards to radical Islam, and there are plenty of people that believe that hiding from or ignoring it will somehow make it go away.

Aah, ok.

Also, I'd like to apologize to you. In hindsight I see I was being way out of line.
You make many legitimate points, and I was being rather uncivilized. Not very Christian of me.

miditek wrote:Also, to help @beg with her question, I believe that the Ten Commandments, in addition to the rest of the laws, were given to us to illustrate how far mankind is separated from God's ideal standard of perfection.

Why do you think God sent His only Son?

miditek wrote:St. Paul admonished that if we are guilty of breaking one of the laws, than we are guilty of breaking all of them- which I believe is a clear warning against legalism. That was a trap that the Sanhedrin and other rabbis and scribes had definitely fallen into, particularly during the time of Christ.

If we break one of the commandments, we also break the 1st commandment (You shall have no other gods). That's another thing that you should think about as well.