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Hamas, Bruce Lee, the U.S. Fifth Fleet, niggers, multiple orgasms, the End Times, Finnisches Freiwilligen, Assad, Xena, God, Zion, the Inquisition, Iraq, Hitler, the KKK.... so far I'm with you all. But for fuck's sake, please don't bring Jennifer Lopez into this!!

This may be a bit off-topic , but in my mind there is a big dilemma about talking to defend him-/herself or peace with guns.
I just can´t understand that at all...but I am a pacifist .

Well weather you like it or not, there are human beings on the other side too.
Israel has a specific purpose to kill "Hamas occupants".

You don't seem to understand just who the HAMAS are. They are not a political party (though they claim to have a "political wing", the head of which sits in Damascus, its purpose is to coordinate the actions of the military wing). They are a bunch of blood-thirsty "humans" whose sole purpose is to bring death, chaos and destruction. They are a minority among Gaza Strip population, but they do make a lot of noise and disturb lives of both Palestinians and Israelis.

So yes, Israel does have a specific purpose of eliminating this threat.

It really is not that simple. I understand why you are pissed off, but will
not solve anything. Both sides must make compromises. There is no other way

It is really that simple. There can be no compromises with such an enemy.

JensJohansson wrote:Hamas, Bruce Lee, the U.S. Fifth Fleet, niggers, multiple orgasms, the End Times, Finnisches Freiwilligen, Assad, Xena, God, Zion, the Inquisition, Iraq, Hitler, the KKK.... so far I'm with you all. But for fuck's sake, please don't bring Jennifer Lopez into this!!

Or Britney, Madonna, Paris, Lindsay, or O.J., for that matter. Too many freaks, too little time.

miditek wrote:

NeonVomit wrote:"]But do you honestly think military action against Iran could possibly be successful at the current time?

We have enough firepower to blow them completely off of the face of the Earth. And that's the conventional weapons. After all, this is a superpower that we're talking about here. How long do you think that Iran's air force could stay in the sky? What makes you think that they would even get off of the ground? Do you think that their pathetic little band of speedboats [that they call a navy] could do anything to the U.S. Fifth or Sixth Fleets? Now the question of whether or not the US will use military action on such a scale is an entirely different issue altogether. It's not really a matter of means, but more or less, a matter of will. Capability is certainly not the question here.

So obliterate their land, sea and air forces. Plus a couple hundred thousand civilians but hey, they're Muslims so it doesn't matter.

Excellent. Then what?

I guess not thinking about what to do after the 'war' is over was why Iraq became such a mess.

miditek wrote:

JensJohansson wrote:Hamas, Bruce Lee, the U.S. Fifth Fleet, niggers, multiple orgasms, the End Times, Finnisches Freiwilligen, Assad, Xena, God, Zion, the Inquisition, Iraq, Hitler, the KKK.... so far I'm with you all. But for fuck's sake, please don't bring Jennifer Lopez into this!!

Or Britney, Madonna, Paris, Lindsay, or O.J., for that matter. Too many freaks, too little time.

Or Dragon-wolfe Dolphinn.

Who is that you may ask? Why, he is the world wide web's most pre-eminent dolphin-fucker. Why is Dragon-wolfe significant? If a world wide web page about dolphin-fucking doesn't count as a sign that the apocalypse is near and that the human race needs to be erased from earth, I am not sure what does.

If OJ and Lopez were put in a nuclear reactor together, would the mutant slime crawling back out be called OJ-lo?

@Shurik: the problem is, if both sides keep on killing each others' people, the war will never stop. I understand your point, as I don't live there I can't feel what you do, but as an outsider I say just try to be pacific it's better than to hate others.

Beast_Pete wrote:@Shurik: the problem is, if both sides keep on killing each others' people, the war will never stop. I understand your point, as I don't live there I can't feel what you do, but as an outsider I say just try to be pacific it's better than to hate others.

You cannot think rationally when you are biased and brainwashed. And that goes to both Israel and Hamas.

TimoTolkki wrote:

Beast_Pete wrote:@Shurik: the problem is, if both sides keep on killing each others' people, the war will never stop. I understand your point, as I don't live there I can't feel what you do, but as an outsider I say just try to be pacific it's better than to hate others.

You cannot think rationally when you are biased and brainwashed. And that goes to both Israel and Hamas.

Again, let's clear the things a bit. Israel is a legitimate state, recognized by UN and almost every country in the world. Hamas is a terrorist organization bent on death and destruction. So, why wanting to eliminate the terrorist organization is called bias and brainwashing? Actually, both Israelis and Palestinians would benefit greatly from Hamas, Islamic Jihad and such dissapearing from the face of the Earth ...

What you all have to understand is that no one here, besides real psychos, wants to fight, because fighting and wars are not fun (you can trust me on that, here was a war here just a year ago and Haifa was bombed almost every day, some rockets fell in 500m radius from my home). But here's no other option with the enemy on the other side (again, just to clear things up - the enemy is not Palestinians but terrorist organizations). You can call it bias and brainwashing, but a month of living here would change your opinion about the whole situation.

Again, let's clear the things a bit. Israel is a legitimate state, recognized by UN and almost every country in the world.

I would quote the US President Harry S Truman about the Palestine/Israel conflict when he had to deal with it. "I think the proper thing to do, and the thing I have been doing, is to do what I think is right and let them all go to hell." It´s a bit like what I wrote before. Because the whole thing is an idiotic thing based on "fatherland", "religion", "racial hatred".



For anyone interested in this and make an opinion must first understand the origins of this conflict:

History's legacy created divisive issues between Palestinians and Israelis. Judea, home of the Jews in ancient times, was conquered by the Romans and renamed Palestine. Palestine was later conquered and inhabited by Arabs for over a thousand years. The Zionist movement arose to restore the Jews to Israel, largely ignoring the existing Arab population. Following the Balfour Declaration in 1917, Palestine was granted to Britain as a League of Nations mandate to build a national home for the Jewish people. The Arabs resented the Jews coming in to take their land. Led by Grand Mufti Hajj Amin El Husseini, they rioted repeatedly and later revolted, creating a history of enmity between Jews and Arabs in Palestine. Britain stopped Jewish immigration to Palestine. Following the Holocaust, in which 6 million Jews were killed by the Nazis, pressure on Britain increased to allow Jewish immigration to Palestine. In 1947, the UN partitioned the land into Arab and Jewish states. The Arabs did not accept the partition and war broke out. The Jews won a decisive victory, expanded their state and created several hundred thousand Palestinian refugees. The Arab states refused to recognize Israel or make peace with it. Wars broke out in 1956, 1967, 1973 and 1982, and there were many terror raids and Israeli reprisals. Each side believes different versions of the same history. Each side views the conflict as wholly the fault of the other and expects an apology.
About 726,000 Palestinians were expelled or fled their homes in 1948 in the war that followed the creation of Israel, and additional Palestinians fled in 1967. There are now about 4 million Palestinian refugees. Many of them live in crowded refugee camps in poor conditions in the West Bank and Gaza, in Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq. Palestinians demand that these refugees should have the right to return to their homes in Israel under UN General Assembly Resolution 194. Israelis note that an almost equal number of Jews fled Arab lands to Israel in 1948. Israelis oppose return of the refugees because that would create an Arab Palestinian majority and would put an end to Israel as a Jewish state. Most Palestinian groups, including the Fateh, agree, and openly proclaim that resolution of the refugee issue by granting right of return would mean the end of Israel.

TimoTolkki wrote: It´s the second biggest religion

And any kind religion is not good for peace and love on this planet. Religion, in all its forms, has more than 1 billion deads on its conscience. Christians-muslims-jews leaders are all guilty for crimes that they've committed against humanity. And actually, islam is well known for the acts of their leaders, mostly in Israel and against the western countries (USA, London, but also Spain in 2004 if I remain well). And Miditek, as he lives in Israel, knows better about the jews-muslims conflict than all of us that we lives in Europe or America...I'm one of the greatest pacifists on this world, because I hate war, weapons and hatred, but actually that's what Miditek is talking is unfornately really happening in Israel and the countries around...I also know many people who live there in Israel (Tel Aviv, Haifa and Jerusalem). They don't know each others but they all tell me the same things...It's the reality of what's happening there. Or have they some collective hallucination?

Unfortunately, as long as we will discuss about the guilt of one or other side, we won't act to get the peace another chance. Acting for peace and love is really much more important than any political speaking. Time is precious and it flowns too quickly...

A suggestion to everybody on this forum : and if we talked about flowers, honeybees and clouds?

TimoTolkki wrote:
For anyone interested in this and make an opinion must first understand the origins of this conflict

Basically, the only way we're ever going to see this end is if both sides say 'right ok, we messed up, sorry about that, we'll work out a compromise'. Of course, that will never happen, because both think they have God on their side and will go to extraordinary lengths to 'prove' it.

MetalAngel wrote:

TimoTolkki wrote: It´s the second biggest religion

And any kind religion is not good for peace and love on this planet. Religion, in all its forms, has more than 1 billion deads on its conscience. Christians-muslims-jews leaders are all guilty for crimes that they've committed against humanity. And actually, islam is well known for the acts of their leaders, mostly in Israel and against the western countries (USA, London, but also Spain in 2004 if I remain well). And Miditek, as he lives in Israel, knows better about the jews-muslims conflict than all of us that we lives in Europe or America...I'm one of the greatest pacifists on this world, because I hate war, weapons and hatred, but actually that's what Miditek is talking is unfornately really happening in Israel and the countries around...I also know many people who live there in Israel (Tel Aviv, Haifa and Jerusalem). They don't know each others but they all tell me the same things...It's the reality of what's happening there. Or have they some collective hallucination?

Unfortunately, as long as we will discuss about the guilt of one or other side, we won't act to get the peace another chance. Acting for peace and love is really much more important than any political speaking. Time is precious and it flowns too quickly...

A suggestion to everybody on this forum : and if we talked about flowers, honeybees and clouds?

From my personal point of view I am as anti religion as you can be.
As far as I know, although being an American Zionist, Miditek hasn´t yet moved to Israel. Perhaps an exodus shall occur soon.
I would love to talk about flowers, honeybees and clouds, but if you keep your eyes open, you simply cannot close your eyes from the violence of the world, the unfairness of "globalisation" and the global climate change.

TimoTolkki wrote: I would love to talk about flowers, honeybees and clouds

We've got Freedom Call and Falconer to do that for us

The Zionist movement arose to restore the Jews to Israel, largely ignoring the existing Arab population.

The first half of he sentence is true, the second is not. There were almost no hostilities between jews and arabs until the arab nationalist movements started to appear somewhere in 1910-1920s ... While zionist movement preferred to build and work the land, arab nationalist movements resorted to violence, culminating in Hebron massacre of 1929 (this is the reason why Hebron, the city of the forefathers, has only app. 400 fanatical jews living there) and so-called uprisal 1936-1939.

Led by Grand Mufti Hajj Amin El Husseini, they rioted repeatedly and later revolted, creating a history of enmity between Jews and Arabs in Palestine.

This guy was a known Nazi supporter, met few times with Himmler and other Nazi leaders, helped to organize 2, if I remember correctly, muslim SS divisions, was responsible for planning terrorist acts against the jewish population during the war, was a very enthusiastic supporter of the "final solution" and was ready to help with carrying out the aforementioned solution in case Rommel would conquer the Palestine from Britain. After the war he fled to Egypt, continued with his propaganda and died there ...

he Arabs did not accept the partition and war broke out.

So, Israel is guilty of arabs not accepting the partition? According to partition plan, arabs would get the most of the land ...

The Jews won a decisive victory, expanded their state and created several hundred thousand Palestinian refugees.

So, are we guilty of the victory too? Those damned jews ...
Actually, the majority of the refugees was due to invading forces' command telling people to temporarily leave their homes so that they could deal with jews without the danger of hurting the arab population.

The Arab states refused to recognize Israel or make peace with it.

So, how is arab states' refusal of recognition of Israel and their refusal of peace is our fault?

Israelis note that an almost equal number of Jews fled Arab lands to Israel in 1948.

In example, the Iraqi jews were told to leave overnight with only the clothes they had on them or they will be slaughtered in the morning ... I heard it from a woman that was a little girl back in those days.

Most Palestinian groups, including the Fateh, agree, and openly proclaim that resolution of the refugee issue by granting right of return would mean the end of Israel.

They also claim that no peace can be possible without those refugees returning to Israel. So, the only way for peace here is the disappearance of Israel?

I also know many people who live there in Israel (Tel Aviv, Haifa and Jerusalem). They don't know each others but they all tell me the same things...It's the reality of what's happening there. Or have they some collective hallucination?

Nah, we are all collectively brainwashed on a daily basis ... I live in Haifa, so you can trust me on that

Because the whole thing is an idiotic thing based on "fatherland", "religion", "racial hatred".

The whole thing is based mostly on religion (islam vs judaism), some parts of "fatherland" stuff and no racial hatred (the hatred towards jews in some muslim circles is religion-based). Actually, christian arabs have nothing against the state of Israel or the jews (I know quite a few christian arabs, most of them are very educated and nice people).
I am an atheist too, so the whole religion stuff is beyond me too (like, why can't religious jews and muslims simply prey to their respective gods, do all that their holy books require and live in peace). But the "fatherland" stuff is not idiotic at all for me. I really think that there's nothing wrong with healthy levels of patriotism, it's actually natural to feel belonging to some place or some group of people and wanting to protect it ...

This is the reference page: http://www.mideastweb.org/
Funnily it said that both parties pretty much deny how the key points
happened. Both have their own versions. But the problem remains unsolved.
And will too.

TimoTolkki wrote: I would love to talk about flowers, honeybees and clouds

Yeeah! let's do it, I love flowers and clouds...althrough I don't really like bees, but I don't hate them, I've got used to them...

nah this goes nowhere, go on on your ùberpolitical war'n religion discussion

shurik wrote:So, how is arab states' refusal of recognition of Israel and their refusal of peace is our fault?

Nobody said it's your fault. Where did you get that from?

TimoTolkki wrote:This is the reference page: http://www.mideastweb.org/
Funnily it said that both parties pretty much deny how the key points
happened. Both have their own versions. But the problem remains unsolved.
And will too.

The stubbornness of human beings can be incredible, when you hear of reports of people surviving in extreme conditions for weeks.

It can also be incredibly frustrating when you can see that all it would take for a thousand years of conflict to end would be two people in the right places saying 'I'm sorry. Let's talk about this before more people needlessly die.'

TimoTolkki wrote:From my personal point of view I am as anti religion as you can be.

As far as I know [...], Miditek hasn´t yet moved to Israel.

Then, he's hidden me that... Or, I don't come on the forum too often...

I would love to talk about flowers, honeybees and clouds, but if you keep your eyes open, you simply cannot close your eyes from the violence of the world, the unfairness of "globalisation" and the global climate change.

I agree! But, maybe if medias had not spread their "reality", there would be no hatred from one population to another...I mean, if the medias had not told people what it seems to happen in some parts of the world, maybe the strikes on New York had never happened...

Maybe I have a simple vision of things, but that's exactly explaining the constantly growing numbers of terrorists in Marocco, Tunisia, Algeria and in western countries...And the results, unfortunately, we all know it : New York 2001, Madrid 2004 and London 2005...All of this provoked by medias which spread not only anger, but also racism, anti-semitism, anti-christianism and violence...

That's about wars.

Concerning the globalization and the global warming, for the 1st one I agree because it's the main cause of the poverty and misery on this planet. For the 2nd one, I'm a bit sceptic about the "warming" effect : if it's true that in the southern world the temperatures are most important now, in the north that's quite not the same which is happening. The proof is the very low temperatures that we've had at the end of january and early february in France. The snow has stayed almost 3 weeks!! That was really exceptionnal, because I've never seen this before in Aquitaine since I've settled there in 1995. Appart the fact that I love snow, I think the climatic phenomenon that scientists and meteorologists are speaking of, is not really a warming, but, in fact, it's a cooling of the Earth...In july and in August we only had between 10 and 19°C! That's really low for a summer time! That's my point of view through the experience I had along those 2 last years and the fact that I've almost had fingers becoming blue because of the too big coldness.

@exe knight : well, I love bees and flowers too. But, if you go this way, you should know that because of the climatical changes, thousands of chinese hornets have invaded our countries and they are causing the death of bees...So, this is a real problem for the beekeepers, who are losing there way of making money, because of the less production of honey. That's a huge catastrophy, not only for the beekeepers, but also for the people who are allergics to industrial sugar and for the natural pollination...

But I stop there the discussion non-connected to the topic.

Carcass wrote:

shurik wrote:So, how is arab states' refusal of recognition of Israel and their refusal of peace is our fault?

Nobody said it's your fault. Where did you get that from?

I can't believe you wrote that!
I guess he got it from all the anti-Israel shit that Trollki has been posting lately. Nobody else has said it, I don't think

Read the thing Tolkki copy/pasted, nowhere in it can you find an accusation like that, can you? That Jews are to blame for the Arabs' refusal of peace...

MetalAngel wrote:I agree! But, maybe if medias had not spread their "reality", there would be no hatred from one population to another...I mean, if the medias had not told people what it seems to happen in some parts of the world, maybe the strikes on New York had never happened...

You yourself don't believe it. The terrorists didn't crashed the planes to WTC because of media...

MetalAngel wrote:Maybe I have a simple vision of things, but that's exactly explaining the constantly growing numbers of terrorists in Marocco, Tunisia, Algeria and in western countries...And the results, unfortunately, we all know it : New York 2001, Madrid 2004 and London 2005...All of this provoked by medias which spread not only anger, but also racism, anti-semitism, anti-christianism and violence...

"Provoked by medias which spead..."??
I acknowledge that medias (let's put tabloids aside) are sometimes too eager to gain some information, but generally speaking they have irreplaceable function in our society.

Small example...
There are states which signed various international treaties and still fail to observe the obligations that they themselves voluntarily adopted! E.g. here are the states who signed "International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights" - among others China, Iraq, Iran... http://www.ohchr.org/english/countries/ ... tion/4.htm and here is the text of it: http://www.ohchr.org/english/law/ccpr.htm. Article 26 "All persons are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to the equal protection of the law." etc. And here http://web.amnesty.org/actforwomen/svaw ... eature-eng is the report from this year: activists in Iran arrested for their activities in "Campaign for Equality, a network which works to end legal discrimination against women."

To sum up, those activists were arrested because they require from the Iran authorities to observe the obligations that Iran voluntarily adopted .

Do you think it's better not to know what's going on there? Just let them (the respective authorities) do what they want to do, shut up and hope that no terrorist will get mad and blow up something in our country??

black death wrote:

MetalAngel wrote:I agree! But, maybe if medias had not spread their "reality", there would be no hatred from one population to another...I mean, if the medias had not told people what it seems to happen in some parts of the world, maybe the strikes on New York had never happened...

You yourself don't believe it. The terrorists didn't crashed the planes to WTC because of media...

MetalAngel wrote:Maybe I have a simple vision of things, but that's exactly explaining the constantly growing numbers of terrorists in Marocco, Tunisia, Algeria and in western countries...And the results, unfortunately, we all know it : New York 2001, Madrid 2004 and London 2005...All of this provoked by medias which spread not only anger, but also racism, anti-semitism, anti-christianism and violence...

"Provoked by medias which spead..."??
I acknowledge that medias (let's put tabloids aside) are sometimes too eager to gain some information, but generally speaking they have irreplaceable function in our society.

Well, the problem is more complex than it seems to be. I don't believe the medias, because one day they tell something and on the other day, they tell something completely different from what they've said the previous day...I've noticed it many times in the TV and on the radio. Moreover, they all say that jews are not the good people and that they are responsible for wars and terror strikes! That's not right at all! Journalists, because they have a diplom of journalism and "history", they think that they have the right to judge some people. And that's a real mistake! Because they are the ones to blame for the strikes and the hatred of the people against each others. For example, on a french tv five days ago, I've listened to a journalist telling that : "Jews, once again them, have refused some peace discussions with the palestinians." And that's this kind of phrases which engender the hatred from arab people to jews when they watch TV or listen to the radio. I simply can't accept this kind of thinking...It's really dangerous for the equilibrium of the world. They can also show some images which can tell something that people won't understand and that they will take for gained. In this way, medias are responsible for what is happening now in Israel and in every western country.

But I won't continue to discuss on this topic...I hate political topics!

MetalAngel wrote:But I won't continue to discuss on this topic...I hate political topics!

Me too! It takes a lot of time and it's absolutely useless


Just one last thing...

Moreover, they all say that jews are not the good people and that they are responsible for wars and terror strikes!

I haven't heard something like this in the media here

That's because the czech medias are intelligent. I've seen many times through the internet news with Lucie Borhyova or Jana Adamkova on Nova TV, but also on CT24 or CT1, and I must admit that they are not against jews, but here in France, there is a real anti-semitism, unfortunately. Journalists here in France prefer to support the wrong side...

Carcass wrote:

shurik wrote:So, how is arab states' refusal of recognition of Israel and their refusal of peace is our fault?

Nobody said it's your fault. Where did you get that from?

Just a bit of sarcasm ...

Take a look at this- any comments?

Israelis seized nuclear material in Syrian raid
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 512380.ece

miditek wrote:Take a look at this- any comments?

Israelis seized nuclear material in Syrian raid
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 512380.ece

Until someone involved in this will come out and present the facts, all that we read in press is pure speculations and nothing more than this.