miditek wrote:miditek wrote:Persians do not respect "diplomacy".
NeonVomit wrote:Nice. Watched 300 recently? Same way that 1 billion people in the world want to see everyone else either convert, or die, correct?
Careful how you put things. Not only can it potentially be racist and offensive, but simply inaccurate.
Neither Persians nor Arabs respect weakness, or the perception of weakness. Why did Tehran hold American hostages for 444 days during the Carter Administration, only to release them moments before the Reagan Administration took power? The answer there is simple: they knew very well what Reagan was likely to do. If this were not the case, then the hostages would have still been held, and this was based on Teheran's
perception of Reagan, and they elected not to take any chances.
You generalise an awful lot. We're talking about the same regime in the same country. Saying an entire nationality or ethnic group will react in a certain way to the same thing is a bit questionable, if you ask me.
NeonVomit wrote:(Oh and for the record, they refer to themselves as 'Iranians'. They speak Persian. Just a little detail there.)
In America, they refer to themselves as "Persians", I should know since my cousin is married to one, and I also have several business partners in Philadelphia that would say the same thing. In other words, it can be a little hazardous to your health in some areas to openly admit to being an Iranian. Also, they refer to their native language as "Farsi" rather than Persian. My cousin speaks to her daughters in English, while their dad typically addresses them in Farsi.
Strange, my friend calls herself Iranian and her language Persian. She was born and grew up in London, however... no one in Britain really cares if you call yourself or your buisiness Iranian. As in, you'll find 'Iranian Supermarket' and 'Iranian Cuisine' restaurants. Different attitudes prevail I guess. People are generally a lot less xenophobic, even in the wake of the London bomb attacks of 2005.
NeonVomit wrote:Foreign policy is a lot more complicated than you're making it out. There are many, many things that go on behind the scenes that we will never know of.
Like convoys of trucks sneaking across the border to Iran and Syria on the eve of the 2003 invasion of Iraq? Such as Iran's and Syria's continued interference in Iraq? Russia continuing to arm Iran?
You missed the point. I'm talking about things we will never, ever know, that go on behind closed doors between diplomats of different countries. I'm sure more than a few questionable deals have been made in that manner in the last 20 years.
What you're talking about is public knowledge, apparently.
NeonVomit wrote:And why do you continue to believe that Ahmandinejad is in charge when it has been clearly explained that he is not? You seem to want him to be a figurehead, and he's playing his role perfectly as far as you're concerned, getting all the attention while the Ayatollah and the council are pretty much ignored. They keep quiet and get along running the country.
What difference does it make by whom is running the country- officially or unofficially? It is a rogue regime, and the US State Department has been doing its best to isolate the regime over the years, but if you look at the numbers, it appears that the EU is Iran's biggest trading partner. (Thanks, Brussels!)
I'm not saying that you're wrong or anything. Just get your terminology correct
Ah yes, of course I forgot, Europe loves terrorists and everything, even though Britain and France voted to impose sanctions on Iran, Germany and Spain have both voiced concerns over the nuclear developments, and virtually every country in Europe has had their own terrorist threats to deal with for the last 40-odd years. Blame Europe for all the ills of the world, America is blameless no?
NeonVomit wrote:Before you say it, I'm not excusing anyone of anything, but how different was the whole situation from the way human rights are clearly being violated at Guantanamo Bay? Perhaps they believe they were justified in doing something similar, if for no other reason than to prove a point.
Why should anyone give a flying fuck about what's going on at Guantanamo? These are enemies of the west being held there, and they are lucky to still have their heads attached to their bodies! Geneva does not offer any protection to irregulars, not to mention spies, saboteurs, etc.
I think everyone should care what's going on there.
If they are indeed the 'enemies of the west', they should be tried and sentenced as such. I'm not doubting that they did something to deserve to be there, but since when does America of all countries act in this manner? Are we just meant to take their word for it that those being held there are terrorists?
You seem to believe that this is a gulag or a stalag, which is not a completely accurate statement. So, you are more concerned with the "rights" of terrorists than you are with stopping them from doing their handiwork? What would you say if Gitmo was filled with Turks rather than Arabs? Would your opinion be, perhaps, somewhat different?
Nice try, play on my national background. No, my opinion would not be at all different in the least. Unlike some people, I hold no ill will to people of any particular nationality or ethnic group. No, not even Turks. I will never form an opinion on anyone based on their racial background. I'd find it just as unacceptable wherever those being held there were from.
I'm concerned with 'human rights'... yes, for all humans... even terrorists are human. Fair trial is one of those rights. And it would do a lot for the credibility of US foreign policy to try them, find them guilty and then imprison them rather than hold them indefinately without trial. Even child rapists deserve a fair trial. Punishment is a different issue. Once they are found guilty, do what you will. (I dislike the death penalty because death is usually too good for people who have committed such crimes.)
If fair trial for all is not upheld, how are things any different from the middle ages? The 'Lettre de cachete' was the most hated of all the powers of the pre-Revolution monarch of France, the power to imprison anyone at any time without trial. Most of the revolutionaries had fought in America's war of independance and were inspired to do something similar at home. Bit strange how things have turned out don't you think?
Also, why no complaints about Iranian, Syrian, or Egyptian jails? Why is it always Gitmo? Does everyone else get a pass since they are not American?
What you're trying to say is "They do it, so why can't we!?!" right?
I'd expect better behaviour from America. A country where freedom and human rights are paramount acting in this manner and then criticising other nations for doing the same? Is that not even vaguely hypocritical? Of course these things go on in North Korean and Burmese prisons, and Amnesty International, other human rights groups and many other countries' governments are only too eager to point this out at every opportunity. Don't be so selective in what you choose to notice.
But America? "Fight fire with fire" you might say, but if that's the case then why not carry out targetted killings of civilians as well? Subdue insurgant forces and their supporting communities with death and fear and torture? Genocide? Suicide bombings? Earlier in this thread I gave the perfect way for the USA to succeed in Iraq, totally foolproof. However it requires methods that I'd only expect from Pol Pot or Ghengis Khan.
If the USA ever resorts to that sort of thing, I will have totally lost my faith in humanity. And I think it is because of this that everyone is quick to voice concerns about Guantanamo. America isn't supposed to stand for
this kind of activity, especially not when speaking of bringing freedom, equality and democracy where it is needed. I find it deeply troubling.
Yes, maybe the 'rules' need to be bent every now and then for the greater good. You can at least admit America is doing that much instead of giving it carte blanche to do whatever it pleases?
We are much kinder than that. 
No one insults Anheuser-Busch and lives! 
Just Kidding- 