Stratovarius Community

Posted: **Thu May 03, 2007 7:56 pm**

Of course there were many reasons for the French Revolution. But the revolutionary war in America was one of them.

Posted: **Thu May 03, 2007 8:06 pm**

One of the triggers, I would say.

Posted: **Sun May 06, 2007 7:08 pm**

Carcass wrote:Historians traditionally see the tension between nobility and the rising bourgeoisie as the main reason. The world was changing, while the top of the French society wanted it to remain the same, to preserve some traits of feudalism, i.e. privileges for the higher classes on the cost of the lower.

"She keeps Moet et Chandon
In her pretty cabinet
'Let them eat cake!', she says
Just like Marie Antoinette"

Posted: **Sat May 26, 2007 1:28 pm**

An article from the Wall Street Journal, written by a Muslim doctor, on the state of American Muslims. Makes for an interesting read.

How to End 'Islamophobia'
The latest survey of American Muslims won't reassure their fellow citizens.

BY TAWFIK HAMID
Friday, May 25, 2007 12:01 a.m. EDT

Islamic organizations regularly accuse non-Muslims of "Islamophobia," a fear and disdain for everything Islamic. On May 17, this accusation bubbled up again as foreign ministers from the Organization of the Islamic Conference called Islamophobia "the worst form of terrorism." These ministers also warned, according to the Arab News, that this form of discrimination would cause millions of Muslims in Western countries, "many of whom were already underprivileged," to be "further alienated."

In America, perhaps the most conspicuous organization to persistently accuse opponents of Islamophobia is the Council of American Islamic Relations. CAIR has taken up the legal case of the "Flying Imams," the six individuals who were pulled from a US Airways flight in Minneapolis this past November after engaging in suspicious behavior before takeoff. Not long ago, CAIR filed a "John Doe" lawsuit that would have made passengers liable for "malicious" complaints about suspicious Muslim passengers.

In an interview at the time, CAIR spokesman Nihad Awad accused Rep. Peter King (R., N.Y.) of being an "extremist" who "encourages Islamophobia" for pointing out what most people would think is obvious, that such a lawsuit would have a chilling effect on passengers who witnessed alarming activity and wished to report it. We can only assume that Mr. Awad believes flyers should passively remain in a state of fear as they travel and submissively risk their lives. In this case, Congress is acting appropriately and considering passing a law sponsored by Mr. King that would grant passengers immunity from such lawsuits.

It may seem bizarre, but Islamic reformers are not immune to the charge of "Islamophobia" either. For 20 years, I have preached a reformed interpretation of Islam that teaches peace and respects human rights. I have consistently spoken out--with dozens of other Muslim and Arab reformers--against the mistreatment of women, gays and religious minorities in the Islamic world. We have pointed out the violent teachings of Salafism and the imperative of Westerners to protect themselves against it.

Yet according to CAIR's Michigan spokeswoman, Zeinab Chami, I am "the latest weapon in the Islamophobe arsenal." If standing against the violent edicts of Shariah law is "Islamophobic," then I will treat her accusation as a badge of honor.

Muslims must ask what prompts this "phobia" in the first place. When we in the West examine the worldwide atrocities perpetrated daily in the name of Islam, it is vital to question if we--Muslims--should lay the blame on others for Islamophobia or if we should first look hard at ourselves.
According to a recent Pew Global Attitudes survey, "younger Muslims in the U.S. are much more likely than older Muslim Americans to say that suicide bombing in the defense of Islam can be at least sometimes justified." About one out of every four American Muslims under 30 think suicide bombing in defense of Islam is justified in at least some circumstances. Twenty-eight percent believe that Muslims did not carry out the 9/11 attacks and 32% declined to answer that question.

While the survey has been represented in the media as proof of moderation among American Muslims, the actual results should yield the opposite conclusion. If, as the Pew study estimates, there are 2.35 million Muslims in America, that means there are a substantial number of people in the U.S. who think suicide bombing is sometimes justified. Similarly, if 5% of American Muslims support al Qaeda, that's more than 100,000 people.

To bring an end to Islamophobia, we must employ a holistic approach that treats the core of the disease. It will not suffice to merely suppress the symptoms. It is imperative to adopt new Islamic teachings that do not allow killing apostates (Redda Law). Islamic authorities must provide mainstream Islamic books that forbid polygamy and beating women. Accepted Islamic doctrine should take a strong stand against slavery and the raping of female war prisoners, as happens in Darfur under the explicit canons of Shariah ("Ma Malakat Aimanikum"). Muslims should teach, everywhere and universally, that a woman's testimony in court counts as much as a man's, that women should not be punished if they marry whom they please or dress as they wish.

We Muslims should publicly show our strong disapproval for the growing number of attacks by Muslims against other faiths and against other Muslims. Let us not even dwell on 9/11, Madrid, London, Bali and countless other scenes of carnage. It has been estimated that of the two million refugees fleeing Islamic terror in Iraq, 40% are Christian, and many of them seek a haven in Lebanon, where the Christian population itself has declined by 60%. Even in Turkey, Islamists recently found it necessary to slit the throats of three Christians for publishing Bibles.

Of course, Islamist attacks are not limited to Christians and Jews. Why do we hear no Muslim condemnation of the ongoing slaughter of Buddhists in Thailand by Islamic groups? Why was there silence over the Mumbai train bombings which took the lives of over 200 Hindus in 2006? We must not forget that innocent Muslims, too, are suffering. Indeed, the most common murderers of Muslims are, and have always been, other Muslims. Where is the Muslim outcry over the Sunni-Shiite violence in Iraq?

Islamophobia could end when masses of Muslims demonstrate in the streets against videos displaying innocent people being beheaded with the same vigor we employ against airlines, Israel and cartoons of Muhammad. It might cease when Muslims unambiguously and publicly insist that Shariah law should have no binding legal status in free, democratic societies.

It is well past time that Muslims cease using the charge of "Islamophobia" as a tool to intimidate and blackmail those who speak up against suspicious passengers and against those who rightly criticize current Islamic practices and preachings. Instead, Muslims must engage in honest and humble introspection. Muslims should--must--develop strategies to rescue our religion by combating the tyranny of Salafi Islam and its dreadful consequences. Among more important outcomes, this will also put an end to so-called Islamophobia.

Dr. Hamid, a onetime member of Jemaah Islamiya, an Islamist terrorist group, is a medical doctor and Muslim reformer living in the West.

Posted: **Mon May 28, 2007 5:34 am**

NeonVomit wrote:An article from the Wall Street Journal, written by a Muslim doctor, on the state of American Muslims. Makes for an interesting read.

How to End 'Islamophobia'
The latest survey of American Muslims won't reassure their fellow citizens.

Dr. Hamid seems to be a very thoughtful and intelligent writer, and I read his column with interest. The sad thing is, there are not enough voices like his to be heard (or else, such voices are not being heeded) in the Arab and Persian communities throughout the Middle East.

Unfortunately. it is the age of the Mullahs and their allies in the MSM (Mainstream media).

The blogger Amil Imani, an Iranian expatriate now residing in the United States, makes great use of his political and literary analysis in a similar, although certainly more forceful vein, than Dr. Hamid.

Political Correctness is the Incubator of Islam
amilimani.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=61&Itemid=2

There will be consequences for the political buffoonery of not taking these threats seriously enough in the West. Dr. Walter Williams, a syndicated columnist and longtime professor of economics at George Mason University in Washington shows what may be a prophetic view of the near future: a lack of conviction amongst Arab/Muslim moderates may ensure that destruction is reigned down upon all.

Creating Effective Incentives
townhall.com/columnists/WalterEWilliams/2007/05/23/creating_effective_incentives?page=full&comments=true

We are quickly approaching the 40th anniversary of the Six Day War, in which Israel was victorious over Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia. The number 40 itself also has great significance in the Biblical sense. Christ was tempted in the wilderness for forty days, which recalls the forty years the Israelis spent in the desert after the exodus from Egypt.

The Great Flood lasted for forty days and nights. After killing an Egyptian that was abusing a fellow Hebrew, Moses hid in the desert for forty years. Elijah hid from Jezebel for forty days and nights. Forty days passed between the Resurrection and Ascension of Christ. In other words, whenever the number 40 appears, it often means that God has something pretty important in the works.

It appears that Israeli PM Ohlmert may end up being sent home. Just last week, former Israeli PM Bibi Netanyahu made the following comments during a speech to the Knesset:

"The state of Israel needs better leadership. Peace can never be achieved by unilateral steps. The time for a reassessment of our policy has come. We should look at the situation without any illusion and restore to the state of Israel its might, deterrent power and above all our self-respect."

It is very possible that we may see Netanyahu taking power in the near future.

And that may make for a very interesting summer.

Posted: **Mon May 28, 2007 6:11 am**

I've realised I have 40 Iron Maiden cds (I have a load of bootlegs as well as official releases). Does that mean that anything is going to happen involving them soon?

You can understand why I tend to be rather sceptical of anything that comes out of the bible in general, and superstitions involving numbers (like 13, 666, 7 and whatnot) are not something I take at all seriously so the whole 40 years thing is meaningless to me.

This situation needs cooler heads on both sides, like Dr. Hamid for example. Netanyahu is not someone I'd like to see in charge at this time. Well, ever really. I have no belief in any sort of biblical apocalypse armageddon day of judgment or whatever thing, so I don't see what good he could possibly do. We have extremists in charge on one side, we don't need them on the other as well.

Dr. Hamid used to be a member of an extremist organisation before he changed his path in life. It gives me hope, that those who were on the edge can realise what is the right path to take, that of reconciliation and acceptance.

For someone who doesn't really hold any religious beliefs, I have a lot of hope and faith.

Posted: **Mon May 28, 2007 1:19 pm**

NeonVomit wrote:I've realised I have 40 Iron Maiden cds (I have a load of bootlegs as well as official releases). Does that mean that anything is going to happen involving them soon?

Iron Maiden is a rock band, and at the end of the day, it will have had very, very little -if any- effect on world history.

NeonVomit wrote:You can understand why I tend to be rather sceptical of anything that comes out of the bible in general, and superstitions involving numbers (like 13, 666, 7 and whatnot) are not something I take at all seriously so the whole 40 years thing is meaningless to me.

The entire numbers thing to me is very significant, although in an allegorical way. Do you think that anything was permanently resolved during the Six Day War? Or in other words, the political repercussions are still being felt to this very day, and almost 40 years later.

NeonVomit wrote:This situation needs cooler heads on both sides, like Dr. Hamid for example.

The Israelis have shown remarkable restraint, given the current political situation. Given their military power, if they chose to do so, they could have already killed every single person in Gaza and the West Bank.

If the role was reversed, then Israel's enemies would have already destroyed the entire country and her people. It has not been from a lack of trying. If they have the means and the wherewithal, believe me, they would have pushed the Israelis into the Mediterranean.

NeonVomit wrote: Netanyahu is not someone I'd like to see in charge at this time. Well, ever really.

Would you care to expand upon this? What is it about Netanyahu that you don't like? Why do you think that he's a bad choice for a leader? Why would he be worse than Ohlmert? Why do you think that Netanyahu's ratings are three times higher than that of any of his closest competitors?

NeonVomit wrote:I have no belief in any sort of biblical apocalypse Armageddon day of judgment or whatever thing, so I don't see what good he could possibly do.

Netanyahu is a Jew- not an evangelical Christian, and as such, it is very likely that he does not believe in the biblical accounts of Armageddon, either. He does however realize that Ahmandinejad believes that it is his divine duty to usher in the era of the Shiite 12th Imam- also known as the Mahdi.

NeonVomit wrote: We have extremists in charge on one side, we don't need them on the other as well.

Well, if Armageddon isn't going to happen anyway, then there's nothing really to worry about, eh? However, if the Israeli people are tired of all of the problems that are being caused by Hamas, and they send in the IDF to take them out, then how can that be a bad thing?

Netanyahu is an experienced political and military leader, and I'd like to see you provide a list of his "extremist" activities to back up your accusations against him.

NeonVomit wrote:Dr. Hamid used to be a member of an extremist organisation before he changed his path in life. It gives me hope, that those who were on the edge can realise what is the right path to take, that of reconciliation and acceptance.

So is Walid Shoebat- a former PLO terrorist that now speaks out against his former associates. There are a great deal of voices coming from the Arab and Persian spheres of influence that don't want war, but they are in the minority. As good a writer as Hamid is, he falls under the assumption that somehow moderate Muslims can or will somehow "shame" the bad Muslims into putting down their weapons and changing their ways. That is not going to happen.

All that would ever result from moderates attempting to engage the radicals in the end would be that the moderates are declared infidels and/or apostates, and would then be summarily executed. There have been some small successes in Iraq- with engaging/enlisting the help of local Sunni warlords and sheiks in the fight against al-Quaida, but long term, the jihadists are going to have their jihad.

It's the way that things work in the world today. Tribalism reigns supreme in that part of the world, and al-Quaida will stop at nothing to achieve their aims.

If you choose not to believe in God, the devil, Armageddon, etc., then you are simply exercising your own free will. However, if there were no God, no Armageddon, etc., then let's examine why the Biblical prophet Zechariah foretold over 2,500 years ago that Jerusalem would be a burden to the entire world. And it has been proven time and again since. Not once, not twice, and not only in a single time period- ancient or modern. Think that God might be trying to tell people something here?

How many times has Jerusalem been sacked, burned, and fought over- and not just in modern times, either? The Babylonians, the Romans, the Crusaders, the Ottoman Turks, etc. fought over it centuries ago, and now the battle continues. If Zechariah's words were not true, then why is Jerusalem at the epicenter of the many of the world's current problems, and commands attention on almost every evening newscast even to this day?

Ultimately, if God did not exist, then it is of very little importance to the world. However, if God does indeed exist (as I believe that He does), then it is of eternal importance for people to be aware of this, as the souls of mankind are at stake.

So if God does exist, He did not leave any middle ground on the issue. God cannot be of mere "moderate" importance. Either he is a myth, or he is God. There is no in between here.

Posted: **Mon May 28, 2007 1:52 pm**

If USA(or Israel)is forced into a confrontation with Iran, and bombs the nuclear facilities for example. That is going to piss-off nearly all Muslims in the Middle-East area. Since a large portion of oil is transported through that bay, this strike would (like the domino effect)cause a Global-wide economic recession. If not worse.
So, I do think in time there will be perilous times upon the Earth. And, it does not make any difference if a person believes or not in terms of this catastrophy occurring. Its destiny that has been prophesized eons ago.
I don't think a person should lose any sleep over it, though. Just live! But, always stayed tuned to what is happening in the world.

Posted: **Mon May 28, 2007 3:47 pm**

Yes, I do keep quite up to date as I like knowing what's going on in the world (and especially considering my home country is in the middle east, especially that region.) I don't like Netanyahu's rhetoric, that's all. He seems a bit more inclined to blow stuff up than talk. We need people to talk. I use the word 'extremist' in a relative sense. Of course, there's a time for talking and a time for blowing stuff up, but last time Israel tried that not much good came out of it. Well, according to what most Israelis think in any case. Ohlmert is likely going to lose his job mostly over what happened last summer.

Why has Jerusalem been a burden to the whole world time and time again? Simple - geopolitics. That particular region of the world has always been in turmoil mostly due to its strategic location for trade routes with the far east and africa (and all this was before oil was discovered). Did the Crusaders really set off to Jerusalem to 'liberate' it from the Saracens? No, they went there for land, knowing they'd have the Church's blessing and full support to go in there because of the religious side. Now, the mess is all about pride, no side is willing to forgive the other for what has happened in the past. Then add the whole religious and historical importance aspect and you have a wonderful mess.

A coincidence that 40 years on there's still trouble in the region after the 6 day war? Why not look to the time this whole situation really got started - the formation of Israel in 1948? That would break the magic '40' rule though wouldn't it... Did anything drastic happen in 1998 when the 40 year annversary of that came about? What about every other highly significant event in world history, how many times did something equally significant occur 40 years later? You can perhaps understand why I give about the same weight to number patterns as I do astrology.

I think religion has always been a tool for politicians to get people to follow what they want to do. There's a reason most countries still have a state religion.

The jihadists are going to have their jihad... does that mean we have to declare a holy war against them in response? This is not a war between Christianity, Judaism and Islam, this is a war between moderation and extremism. And from the moment the moderates start behaving like extremists, the extremists can claim victory.

And because I am not convinced of God's existance (or indeed non-existance) you can see why I don't pay much attention to that whole side. To me, this entire situation is about politics, resources and pride with religion serving as a catalyst.

Posted: **Mon May 28, 2007 4:07 pm**

If you choose not to believe in God, the devil, Armageddon, etc., then you are simply exercising your own free will. However, if there were no God, no Armageddon, etc., then let's examine why the Biblical prophet Zechariah foretold over 2,500 years ago that Jerusalem would be a burden to the entire world.
How many times has Jerusalem been sacked, burned, and fought over- and not just in modern times, either? The Babylonians, the Romans, the Crusaders, the Ottoman Turks, etc. fought over it centuries ago, and now the battle continues. If Zechariah's words were not true, then why is Jerusalem at the epicenter of the many of the world's current problems, and commands attention on almost every evening newscast even to this day?
Ultimately, if God did not exist, then it is of very little importance to the world. However, if God does indeed exist (as I believe that He does), then it is of eternal importance for people to be aware of this, as the souls of mankind are at stake.

And if it would be true what you write about God, then there would be no free will because all would be predestined, including the chaos and destruction.I believe "God" as you call it, is extremely sad at the moment about the completely divided human race and its violent actions.
Why don´t you also write the Bible quote here, so we can all examine it.

Posted: **Mon May 28, 2007 4:49 pm**

Yes, God is sad&I am sure God grieves every day for the state of te world&especially, its people. I mean, if you create something(as God did mankind), and it screws up big time, yes, there is going to be much sadness. Plus, if what you create messes up other things you have created, too(like mankind ha messed up Earth), the grief doubles.
IMO, if there is a last judgment for mankind, more people are going to be punished not for murder, adultery, thievery, etc, but for Idol Worship. The Idol being love/lust for money aka: good old-fashioned greed. The environment is being raped because of it. And, because of gas prices rising, more farmers are turning their grain crops into ethanol. Which means less food for the world. The list is endless.

Oh, the 40-year thing? 40 years is considered a generation. At least, Biblically. @Right, miditek?

Posted: **Mon May 28, 2007 4:59 pm**

I rest my case. Predestination (which is central themes of the Bible) excludes free will. They cannot coexist.
The upcoming Celestial bootkick in the ass is coming not from "God" directly, but as a consequence of the actions of the industrialized revolution. We have free will, so we can destroy the world if we want. No force will stop us. But there are consequences because freedom and free will go hand in hand with responsibility.

Posted: **Mon May 28, 2007 5:12 pm**

Well, meteorologists are predicting a very fierce hurricane season this year. And, the Southeast, USA has been in an extreme drought condition for a very long time.

The wildfires which were burning in Florida&Georgia has sent smog all the way up into Northern AL&Middle Tennessee.
So, its bad but, its probably going to get worse before it gets better.

Posted: **Mon May 28, 2007 5:42 pm**

browneyedgirl wrote:Well, meteorologists are predicting a very fierce hurricane season this year. And, the Southeast, USA has been in an extreme drought condition for a very long time. The wildfires which were burning in Florida&Georgia has sent smog all the way up into Northern AL&Middle Tennessee.
So, its bad but, its probably going to get worse before it gets better.

Unfortunately your country is responsible for about 45% of the greenhouse gas emissions and despite of the promises of the federal government, they are actually going up.
Some of the states have started their own actions because of this:

As of January 18, 2007, eight Northeastern US states are involved in the Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative (RGGI),[66] which is a state level emissions capping and trading program. It is believed that the state-level program will indirectly apply pressure on the federal government by demonstrating that reductions can be achieved without being a signatory of the Kyoto Protocol.

* Participating states: Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Delaware, Massachusetts, Maryland joins June 30, 2007.

Posted: **Mon May 28, 2007 5:44 pm**

But then you get many people who are not convinced that global warming actually is occurring, despite what virtually the entire scientific community holds true.

They will mix politics and the environment, which is very sad and just the wrong way to go about such a sensitive and vital subject.

Posted: **Mon May 28, 2007 6:35 pm**

Its not "my" country, I just happen to have been born here&I live here.
Thank you.

Oh, those states are the Blue States.
Maybe now that there is a Democratic Congress things will change for the better, environmentally speaking.

Still, China is the biggest producer of industrial smog&pollutants, though.

Posted: **Mon May 28, 2007 9:32 pm**

TimoTolkki wrote:And if it would be true what you write about God, then there would be no free will because all would be predestined, including the chaos and destruction.

I think that the whole free will thing essentially is a choice to either accept God, or to reject Him, as well as how we decide to live, regardless of preexisting circumstances. Everyone does not choose to inflict chaos and destruction any more than everyone chooses to accept (or reject) God.

Some events were and are predestined to happen, such as the Crucifixion itself; however, it was Christ's free will that ultimately determined the outcome.

There is an account of this in Mark 14:36, when Christ said: "And He was saying, "Abba! Father! All things are possible for You; remove this cup from Me; yet not what I will, but what You will."

When Peter drew his sword and slashed off the ear of one of the temple police, Jesus rebuked him, and once again reasserted that he was acting under his own free will:

(52)"Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword." (53)"Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels?" Matthew 26:52-53

He chose God's way as opposed to what Christ Himself wanted personally, during His anguish at Gethsemane.

TimoTolkki wrote:Why don´t you also write the Bible quote here, so we can all examine it.

Of course, here's the verse itself from: Zechariah 12:3

(3)"It will come about in that day that I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples; all who lift it will be severely injured And all the nations of the earth will be gathered against it."

This is the New American Standard Bible (version) quotation. You may find it a bit easier to read than the King James Version, which is a bit Shakespearean as far as its English goes. @NV do you have a Greek bible that you could reference this from, by chance?

TimoTolkki wrote:I believe "God" as you call it, is extremely sad at the moment about the completely divided human race and its violent actions.

And with that assessment, I can completely agree. What parent would be happy with children that slaughter each other in His name? Coincidentally, God's anguish is described in detail a bit later in the very same chapter of Zechariah that foretells the conquest of Jerusalem.

10" I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.- Zechariah 12:10

(note: Chronologically speaking, the 'whom they have pierced' part describes the spear of destiny being thrust into the side of the Christ at the Crucifixion by a Roman Centurion, hundreds of years before the event actually occurred. The spear pierced Christ's side, and the very heart of God itself was pierced. God wept before the event even happened.

Let's look at this another way; if what Zechariah said was false, then why is the battle for Jerusalem still being waged? All other battles (except this one) have eventually come to an end. The battle of Gettysburg. The battle of the Somme. The Winter War and the Continuation War. The battle of Britain. The battle of Stalingrad. The battle for Berlin- all over, and are now history.

This conflict remains unresolved. Why? Because the hour is not yet at hand, but surely as the sun rises in the east, and sets in the west, it is coming. Why Jerusalem and, more importantly, why not New York? Why not London? Or Moscow? Jerusalem is positively tiny compared to those cities, but the conflict continues, thousands of years later.

On a final note, in response to what @NV said, this is merely not about Christianity vs. Islam vs. Judaism. If that were true, then why are secularists such as Theo van Gogh being killed? What about Buddhists being slaughtered by the jihadists? Or Islamic radicals killing Hindus in the Indian parliament via violent terrorist attacks? Are we seeing Christians and Jews fighting with religions other than the Islamists?

Posted: **Mon May 28, 2007 9:41 pm**

browneyedgirl wrote:Oh, the 40-year thing? 40 years is considered a generation. At least, Biblically. @Right, miditek?

Yes, 40 years is defined in the Bible as a generation. And I strongly believe that our generation will be the one that sees the return of the Lord. En force. It cannot go on much longer, particularly given the proliferation of nuclear weapons to rogue states that are determined to destroy Israel. The current political situation will eventually turn very ugly, and it will force God to step in, as described in Ezekiel 38 and 39, during the Invasion of Gog and Magog.

Finnish forum members, might find the native translation to be a bit more intuitive:

Ezekiel 38
christianisrael.com/finnish/B26C038.htm

(Note: Ezekiel 38:6 where God describes the house of
Togarmah in the far north is Russia- the only
country that is located to the extreme north of
Israel. That is something most all modern theologian
groups agree on. Gomer is a bit more contested, as
it could be either France, Germany, or possibly
Turkey.)

Ezekiel 39
christianisrael.com/finnish/B26C039.htm

Novelist Joel C. Rosenberg is currently on the ground now in Sderot in Israel, which since 2001 has been subjected to over 4,500 rocket attacks, and how this may lead to a much wider conflict.

cbn.com/CBNnews/162046.aspx

Joel also has an excellent blog going at his website that has a great overview of what is going on- on the ground in Israel at this very moment.

joelrosenberg.blogspot.com

Posted: **Mon May 28, 2007 9:44 pm**

miditek wrote:On a final note, in response to what @NV said, this is merely not about Christianity vs. Islam vs. Judaism. If that were true, then why are secularists such as Theo van Gogh being killed? What about Buddhists being slaughtered by the jihadists? Or Islamic radicals killing Hindus in the Indian parliament via violent terrorist attacks?

Muslim terrorists are mostly blowing up other muslims.

Posted: **Mon May 28, 2007 10:15 pm**

Of course, here's the verse itself from: Zechariah 12:3

(3)"It will come about in that day that I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples; all who lift it will be severely injured And all the nations of the earth will be gathered against it."

As all the other things from the Bible you quoted, I leave uncommented because I don´t believe in nor Bible or Christianity (That was established by the Roman emperor constantinus 400 years after Christ).
I don´t see "all the people" in Jerusalem. I see 2 nations fighting a meaningless war where kids die and human stupidity once again shows its face.

Posted: **Mon May 28, 2007 10:31 pm**

Thanks, miditek, for those links! I'll check them out when I have more time.

Oh, I think Christianity existed long before 400 AD.

Posted: **Mon May 28, 2007 10:58 pm**

TimoTolkki wrote:As all the other things from the Bible you quoted, I leave uncommented because I don´t believe in nor Bible or Christianity (That was established by the Roman emperor constantinus 400 years after Christ).

The historical archives of the popes at the Vatican indicate there were at least 30 or more papal administrations that served prior to the appearance of Constantine. That's an awful lot of popes that oversaw the early church to then go and give credit to Constantine.

TimoTolkki wrote:I don´t see "all the people" in Jerusalem. I see 2 nations fighting a meaningless war where kids die and human stupidity once again shows its face.

Not yet, that is true, but we do see the majority of countries that are hostile to Israel. Certainly, Israel has no neighbors that she can consider to be friendly. What would the Finns do if Katusha's were being fired across their borders with a regular frequency? (They would hit back, without a doubt), and there have been more UN resolutions passed against Israel than any other country.

Where is Hezbollah getting all of these new weapons from? How are they getting into Lebanon? What are Iranian Revolutionary Guards (Persians, no less, not Arabs) doing in Lebanon to begin with?

It's certainly not via its Mediterranean ports, which are under heavy satellite surveillance. There are more countries than you think that are involved in this conflict, and they are doing this covertly in order to avoid retaliation by the US and Israel. This can only mean that the men and material are being transported in from Iran via Syria.

Weapons caches that were smuggled in to Gaza via tunnels from Egypt are uncovered daily. So much for the Israelis giving the Sinai back to Egypt. Prior to the outbreak of the Six Day War there was a UN force that setup a DMZ in Sinai to prevent the very sort of weapons smuggling (that is occurring today), until Egypt ordered the force out, and the UN acquiesced to the demand, and evacuated.

Also, many of the modern wars in the Middle East have ultimately ended with tiny Israel defeating the military might of one, two, thee, four, etc. of her larger neighbors at a time. Also, if Ezekiel 38-39 were not true, then how does one explain why is Russia building nuclear reactors at Bushrer in Iran, in addition to providing sophisticated air defense and anti-tank weaponry to Syria and Iran?

Who is giving Iran the technical expertise to build the command and control centers at Bushrer deep underground, so as to avoid getting hit by the JDAM munitions that are designed to take out underground bunkers?

If- these reactors were for peaceful purposes, then why are they being hardened into a military like configuration, and bases being dispersed over a wide geographical area, and protected by modern Russian radar and missile installations?

Posted: **Mon May 28, 2007 10:59 pm**

browneyedgirl wrote:Thanks, miditek, for those links! I'll check them out when I have more time.

Oh, I think Christianity existed long before 400 AD.

Sure, but very unorganized and chaotic. One church "Church of Jerusalem" that had 120 people and St.Paul´s writings, who never met Jesus by the way.The gospels were written 65-80 years after the death of Christ. Konstantinus fought hard to establish Christianity as the primary religion in Roman empire.

Posted: **Mon May 28, 2007 11:08 pm**

TimoTolkki wrote:
browneyedgirl wrote:Thanks, miditek, for those links! I'll check them out when I have more time.

Oh, I think Christianity existed long before 400 AD.
Sure, but very unorganized and chaotic. One church "Church of Jerusalem" that had 120 people and St.Paul´s writings, who never met Jesus by the way.The gospels were written 65-80 years after the death of Christ. Konstantinus fought hard to establish Christianity as the primary religion in Roman empire.

You know, I think that you are right about the overall timeline of authorship of the Books of the Gospel, and other related materials. Christianity was certainly chaotic in the early times- we had the Sanhedrin that would have no problem declaring any Christian an apostate (and putting them to death), while the crimes of the Roman Emperor Nero against the Christians are well documented, even in secular history.

Yet, Christianity did survive, as did Judaism, despite these trials and tribulations.

Posted: **Mon May 28, 2007 11:14 pm**

The historical archives of the popes at the Vatican indicate there were at least 30 or more papal administrations that served prior to the appearance of Constantine. That's an awful lot of popes that oversaw the early church to then go and give credit to Constantine.

Thats an awful lot of popes as well for 315 years. Every 10 years new pope. I dont find any evidence on this. There is evidence that the papacy didnt gain any true "power" before Konstantinus

Not yet, that is true, but we do see the majority of countries thaare hostile to Israel.

Would you name these "majority of the countries"?

What would the Finns do if Katusha's were being fired across their borders with a regular frequency?

I don´t know because I don´t consider myself as a Finn. I am a citizen of the world.

Code: Select all

It's certainly not via its Mediterranean ports, which are under heavy satellite surveillance. There are more countries than you think that are involved in this conflict, and they are doing this covertly in order to avoid retaliation by the US and Israel.

Which countries? And ultimately what is the motive for USA to support Israel?

If- these reactors were for peaceful purposes, then why are they being hardened into a military like configuration, and bases being dispersed over a wide geographical area, and protected by modern Russian radar and missile installations?

And what is the source for this information?

Posted: **Tue May 29, 2007 5:27 am**

The historical archives of the popes at the Vatican indicate there were at least 30 or more papal administrations that served prior to the appearance of Constantine. That's an awful lot of popes that oversaw the early church to then go and give credit to Constantine.

TimoTolkki wrote:Thats an awful lot of popes as well for 315 years. Every 10 years new pope.

Or, almost as frequent as some presidential elections.

TimoTolkki wrote:I dont find any evidence on this. There is evidence that the papacy didnt gain any true "power" before Konstantinus

Constantine established state-level tolerance for the Church, and greatly aided in working to end the persecutions that had long been a part of official state policy, but I think it might be a bit of a stretch to say that actually founded or otherwise implemented Christianity itself.

Here's a wiki list on the genealogy of the Popes, the timelines are fairly clear and in sequential order.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_popes

Not yet, that is true, but we do see the majority of countries that are hostile to Israel.

TimoTolkki wrote:Would you name these "majority of the countries"?

Well, we can always start with the neighborhood itself. Israel has either fought and/or been attacked by:

* Lebanon
* Syria
* Egypt
* Transjordan/Jordan
* Iraq
* Saudi Arabia
* Iran (via its Hezbollah proxy forces in Lebanon)

In addition to:

* Hostile terrorist forces from Hamas and Islamic Jihad in the West Bank as well as Gaza
* Also engaged Ugandan troops during the rescue operation at Entebbe, led by Lt. Col. Joni Netanyahu
* Engaged hostile PLO operatives on the ground at Mogadishu, Somalia
* Suffered terror attacks on its Olympic team from PLO operatives while on German soil at the 1972 Olympics

Israel also was quietly threatened by direct intervention from the Soviet Union during the Six Day War. So international coalitions with anti-semitic ambitions are really not anything new. A new book reveals how the Six Day War almost became Armageddon. Rosenberg's analysis was that God "kicked the can down the road", so to speak. That it was not yet time.

joelrosenberg.blogspot.com/2007/05/how-six-day-war-almost-led-to.html

What would the Finns do if Katusha's were being fired across their borders with a regular frequency?

TimoTolkki wrote:I don´t know because I don´t consider myself as a Finn. I am a citizen of the world.

Some people feel comfortable in any country that they happen to be in. That's great, but not everyone can do that. I think what I meant is that most any citizen of any country would be angry at having rockets fired repeatedly at their neighborhoods, and that the country's military would have to respond in kind, and Finland would be no exception if it were Russians that were firing Katyushas across the border.

It's certainly not via its Mediterranean ports, which are under heavy satellite surveillance. There are more countries than you think that are involved in this conflict, and they are doing this covertly in order to avoid retaliation by the US and Israel.

TimoTolkki wrote:Which countries? And ultimately what is the motive for USA to support Israel?

Iran and Syria are two of the primary instigators here. Hezbollah is an Iranian organization, and as such, it has to be fed, paid, armed, and resupplied. The Israeli navy would never allow weapons to be offloaded in its area of operations.

The only recourse is to have the supply lines open from Syria. Iranian weapons and Syrian logistics, its worked well for the thirty or so years that Iran and Syria have interfered with Lebanon's internal affairs. Russia provides weapons and assistance to both of these countries, and can also be considered complicit in adding to an already volatile environment. Who else other than Israel has been targeted by the Katyushas and other weapons that are coming in? Who else other than Hezbollah were firing them, and why are they, a terror army comprised of Persians no less, even being permitted to stay in Lebanon?

The primary motive of the United States in its support for the State of Israel is really quite simple; to help ensure the survival of the world's only Jewish state, which coincidentally, is the only democracy in the Middle East to begin with, and in addition to the fact that Israel is a close friend and ally of our country. Also, there is a major grassroots effort among evangelical Christians, as well as Jewish organizations to help provide humanitarian relief and assistance to the people of Israel specifically, in addition to many other areas and peoples of the Middle East in general. In short, so long as America exists and is physically able to do so, she will stand by her Israeli friends and allies, even until the end of the world.

If- these reactors were for peaceful purposes, then why are they being hardened into a military like configuration, and bases being dispersed over a wide geographical area, and protected by modern Russian radar and missile installations?

TimoTolkki wrote:And what is the source for this information?

Sale of 'bunker busters' seen as warning to Iran
washtimes.com/world/20050428-105543-9139r.htm

This widely reported story of the United States selling the JDAM technology for the next generation of "Bunker Buster" weapons would seem to add credibility to other widely published reports that the Bushrer and other facilities are buried deep in underground locations. Since Washington has nothing to gain by denying that this sale actually took place, we can assume that already 'the check has cleared the bank', so to speak, and that the sale went through as planned.

If Israeli intelligence (Mossad) had failed to indicate to the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) that the Bushrer facilities were indeed underground, then it is very unlikely that the IDF would have approached Washington with a purchase order for these weapons systems- which are highly specialized ordance that is designed to take out underground complexes and are targeted via a satellite link.

Also, a couple of links regarding the Kremlin's sale of new air defense systems to Tehran:

Russia to sell 29 air defense systems to Iran
english.pravda.ru/main/18/88/354/16570_Iran.html

Report: Russia Fills Iran's Air Defense Missile Contract
foxnews.com/story/0,2933,245859,00.html

Despite it's name, Pravda has historically not always been known for telling the truth, but in this case, I think that we can take them at their word. It's a bit of subtle pressure from Putin warning the US and Israel to not risk strikes on Bushrer. If so, then it will be costly, which also may be true.

Also, that's a lot of extra security expenses for a nuclear program that is supposed to be for civilian use only.

Posted: **Tue May 29, 2007 11:43 am**

I do wish you'd realise that quotes from the bible have very little meaning to those who do not take it literally or indeed believe anything from it at all. You might as well be quoting from the last issue of Hello! magazine...

Posted: **Tue May 29, 2007 11:52 am**

NeonVomit wrote:I do wish you'd realise that quotes from the bible have very little meaning to those who do not take it literally or indeed believe anything from it at all. You might as well be quoting from the last issue of Hello! magazine...

I´m sorry to say, but to me it gives the whole subject almost a comic tone.
At least that´s what it did to me. I don´t even wanna start talking about that.
I do respect everybody´s beliefs and if someone thinks the Bible is the thing, then it´s more than cool for me and I have to be honest here, it does have many things in there that are and have been valuable for me. For example what is written about love. But all the predestination/temple stuff..not for me man:)

Posted: **Tue May 29, 2007 11:55 am**

TimoTolkki wrote:
browneyedgirl wrote:Thanks, miditek, for those links! I'll check them out when I have more time.

Oh, I think Christianity existed long before 400 AD.
Sure, but very unorganized and chaotic. One church "Church of Jerusalem" that had 120 people and St.Paul´s writings, who never met Jesus by the way.The gospels were written 65-80 years after the death of Christ. Konstantinus fought hard to establish Christianity as the primary religion in Roman empire.

Posted: **Tue May 29, 2007 12:17 pm**

TimoTolkki wrote:
NeonVomit wrote:I do wish you'd realise that quotes from the bible have very little meaning to those who do not take it literally or indeed believe anything from it at all. You might as well be quoting from the last issue of Hello! magazine...
I´m sorry to say, but to me it gives the whole subject almost a comic tone.
At least that´s what it did to me. I don´t even wanna start talking about that.
I do respect everybody´s beliefs and if someone thinks the Bible is the thing, then it´s more than cool for me and I have to be honest here, it does have many things in there that are and have been valuable for me. For example what is written about love. But all the predestination/temple stuff..not for me man:)

The reason I have this attitude to the bible is very simple.

When doing academic research, one is always meant to be critical of sources of information. Who wrote the book? When? What were their aims? Why did they write it?

For the bible, none of this supporting information exists. Therefore, I cannot view it as a reliable source of information, especially considering that it has been edited, re-edited and changed for the benefit of whoever was in charge at the time.

Is the bible the Word of God? Who is in a position to say that it is?

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