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Rebel wrote:After the republicans threw everything and the kitchen sink at the communist label in the 2008 election, only 37% of Americans preferred capitalism over communism, 30% prefer Communism, and 33% are unsure now.

Also, most people don't even know what communism is, except that it's bad.

NeonVomit wrote:

Rebel wrote:After the republicans threw everything and the kitchen sink at the communist label in the 2008 election, only 37% of Americans preferred capitalism over communism, 30% prefer Communism, and 33% are unsure now.

Also, most people don't even know what communism is, except that it's bad.

Well, I know what communism is, being born in USSR and all, and it's really bad. Much worse than you think.

From wikapedia

a classless, stateless and oppression-free society where decisions on what to produce and what policies to pursue are made democratically, allowing every member of society to participate in the decision-making process in both the political and economic spheres of life.

Did russia have this?

Shurik wrote:

NeonVomit wrote:

Rebel wrote:After the republicans threw everything and the kitchen sink at the communist label in the 2008 election, only 37% of Americans preferred capitalism over communism, 30% prefer Communism, and 33% are unsure now.

Also, most people don't even know what communism is, except that it's bad.

Well, I know what communism is, being born in USSR and all, and it's really bad. Much worse than you think.

Yup, the party aparatchik driving around in Mercedes and BMWs is definately communism

icecab21 wrote:From wikapedia

a classless, stateless and oppression-free society where decisions on what to produce and what policies to pursue are made democratically, allowing every member of society to participate in the decision-making process in both the political and economic spheres of life.

Did russia have this?

The party elite had their own stores to shop in, and had their own chaffuer driven cars, among other things. But don't take my word for it- there are plenty of Russians that I am personal friends with here stateside that would tell you that, and a lot more that was going on during that era.

Moreover, there is a Ukranian girl that I work with that echoed many of the Russian's statements, which in a nutshell is, "We left the former Soviet bloc for freedom and prosperity; and now, we can see clear warning signs that both are being swept away. This is my country too!"

Now what would you say to her or the Russkies about those sentiments?

NeonVomit wrote:

Shurik wrote:

NeonVomit wrote: Also, most people don't even know what communism is, except that it's bad.

Well, I know what communism is, being born in USSR and all, and it's really bad. Much worse than you think.

Yup, the party aparatchik driving around in Mercedes and BMWs is definately communism

Even Idi Amin had a Mercedes...it's a status symbol even for gangsters and thugs.

icecab21 wrote:From wikapedia

a classless, stateless and oppression-free society where decisions on what to produce and what policies to pursue are made democratically, allowing every member of society to participate in the decision-making process in both the political and economic spheres of life.

Did russia have this?

That's communism in theory. It can't and doesn't work in any normal human society. All the communist experiments ended in millions of deaths.

Yup, the party aparatchik driving around in Mercedes and BMWs is definately communism

Mersedes and BMW are post-soviet additions. Really important party members were driving in soviet equivalents of luxury cars (Volga and such).
But that's not the point. The point is that communism is a dangerous ideology responsible for millions of deaths and it should be forbidden worldwide.

Shurik wrote: But that's not the point. The point is that communism is a dangerous ideology responsible for millions of deaths and it should be forbidden worldwide.

Just like Christianity and Islam are dangerous ideologies responsible for millions of deaths. My point being, what happened in the USSR can be likened to the 'Christianity' practised by the Lord's Resistance Army in Africa.

On paper, communism (much like religion) seems like an ideal solution to all the world's problems. As you said though, it's not really translatable to real life.

Forbidding an ideology worldwide is not workable or indeed even possible.

miditek wrote:The party elite had their own stores to shop in, and had their own chaffuer driven cars, among other things. But don't take my word for it- there are plenty of Russians that I am personal friends with here stateside that would tell you that, and a lot more that was going on during that era.

Yet Stalin was voted "third-best Russian".

Carcass wrote:

miditek wrote:The party elite had their own stores to shop in, and had their own chaffuer driven cars, among other things. But don't take my word for it- there are plenty of Russians that I am personal friends with here stateside that would tell you that, and a lot more that was going on during that era.

Yet Stalin was voted "third-best Russian".

I'd be willing to bet that the tens of millions of Stalin's victims would have voted for someone else- probably for someone like Solzhenitsyn.

Neon Vomit- don't compare Christianity to Communism or Fascism (both of the latter are European inventions) and are not even close to Christianity in spirit or in practice. There have been some atrocities committed by those that may have called themselves Christians (such as remanants of the former Yugoslav army and various Serb militias) but they were anything but committed Christians.
Corrie Ten Boom and Lottie Moon are far more accurate representations of those that represented our faith.

I don't call USSR communism since it was in a process and not the definition, let along the ideal. That would be like calling the USA free market when it's mixed market. Communism can work at small levels with consensual involvement from participants.

miditek wrote:

Carcass wrote:

miditek wrote:The party elite had their own stores to shop in, and had their own chaffuer driven cars, among other things. But don't take my word for it- there are plenty of Russians that I am personal friends with here stateside that would tell you that, and a lot more that was going on during that era.

Yet Stalin was voted "third-best Russian".

I'd be willing to bet that the tens of millions of Stalin's victims would have voted for someone else- probably for someone like Solzhenitsyn.

Neon Vomit- don't compare Christianity to Communism or Fascism (both of the latter are European inventions) and are not even close to Christianity in spirit or in practice. There have been some atrocities committed by those that may have called themselves Christians (such as remanants of the former Yugoslav army and various Serb militias) but they were anything but committed Christians.
Corrie Ten Boom and Lottie Moon are far more accurate representations of those that represented our faith.

Exactly, just like what happened in the Soviet Union had almost nothing to do with what communism was originally about. Thanks for illustrating my point for me

if people don't follow a system, the people are to blame, not the system. If following one system leads to a certain result, that does not mean that following any system will lead to the same result.

icecab21 wrote:if people don't follow a system, the people are to blame, not the system. If following one system leads to a certain result, that does not mean that following any system will lead to the same result.

Bullshit- there were plenty that served in the White Army (against the Reds) as well as the kulaks (for instance) that were butchered without mercy by the Bolsheviks. So what you're alluding to is that the victims were somehow responsible for their own massacres.

The Bolsheviks were conceptually no different than the Nazis- both of whom not only used terror to seize power, but also to maintain it.

Class warfare is a tired, old game but there are too many that still buy into it.

The Bolsheviks did not- I repeat did not- have any benevloent intrests in mind. The Russian people merely traded one gang for another before, during, and after the revolution.

America on the other hand gave George III his walking papers at the end of a bayonet and then proceeded to build the greatest democracy the world has ever known, and we did so without exterminating tens of millions of our own citizens solely for the sake of allowing the revolutionaries themselves to keep the country under their jackboot.

How is American democracy greater than, say, Finnish democracy?

Carcass wrote:How is American democracy greater than, say, Finnish democracy?

Because it's America, duh. Also, according to miditek, it's allowed a marxist jihadist communist non-American nazi (who happens to be half black) to become president.

I should have been more specific as to what I was talking about. I was talking the ideals of communism, not a particular system or the behavior of certain groups that formed plans to gain power. In communism everyone has power; there is no party of power.

if you are talking about people having certain intentions, i think that does does prove against a system that does not have those intentions.

I don't think a big country can support communism, but if a group wants to buy their own private property and make it a public communistic community where everything is volunteer, I don't see a problem with that kind of system.
Maybe I’m going by my own definition of communism, but to me coercive force is not something to be allowed in communism and all groups must be formed volunteer. There is a democracy where people can either compromise or walk away.

Pretty much I'm saying that communism can work in a free market.

icecab21 wrote:
Pretty much I'm saying that communism can work in a free market.

Theoretically, it sounds great, but it just can't in reality. Some people will want more than others, and in order to stop some people having everything and others having nothing, you'll have to introduce regulation. And so on.

One messed up thing about the Soviet Union was how a doctor would often be paid the same amount as a miner or construction worker. Granted, those are both dangerous, difficult jobs but somehow it doesn't seem fair that someone who put themselves through medical school should not be rewarded for it accordingly.

miditek wrote:Neon Vomit- don't compare Christianity to Communism or Fascism (both of the latter are European inventions) and are not even close to Christianity in spirit or in practice.

Democracy is also an European invention and many of Jesus' teachings were pretty close to communism.


Just sayin'...

i'm sleepy and maybe i'll go correct this later but here goes random thoughts.

Part of this is a question of morals and discipline. Theory turns to reality when people have the discipline to follow the process. Flaws that I see in communism are environmental flaws such as unequal natural distribution of resources. I think free market is pretty much the root of my thoughts as the best system and that the values and actions of the people in the system determine how well it functions. I think i'm thinking that any good aspect of communism can be done in a free market. I’ll give mixed market the second best rating since it’s the most functional and is a middle ground. I would say community forms of politics require the best moral character of people to work best. Maybe I’m too much of a nurture person in the nature vs. nurture debate but I would say people can be trained to follow systems with good checks on corruption.

Carcass wrote:How is American democracy greater than, say, Finnish democracy?

We're not exactly comparing apples vs. apples her now are we? America is something along the lines of being sixty times larger (population wise) than Finland, and our two and a half centuries of accomplishments speak for themselves.

Not that the Finns shouldn't be proud of their own country mind you, as they've done rather well for themselves. Saying that one or the other is better is less accurate than saying that the two nations are dramatically different.

NeonVomit wrote:[Because it's America, duh. Also, according to miditek, it's allowed a marxist jihadist communist non-American nazi (who happens to be half black) to become president.

No, we have a far-left radical that came out of nowhere from one of the most corrupt political machines in the entire nation (Chicago). No, I do not believe that he's native born, and yes, judging by the company he keeps I would say that if he is not an active, practicing Muslim, then he certainly is sympathetic towards them and their plans to establish a caliphate.

I also strongly suspect that he hates the capitalist system so much that he is willing to stop at nothing to destroy it as we know it and to set up a socialist state along the lines of the former USSR right here in this country.

Those are beliefs that I feel rather strongly about, and you're certainly welcome to your own. You can crack all the jokes that you wish about my opinions but it will have absolutely no effect on them. None whatsover.

Mormegil wrote:Democracy is also an European invention and many of Jesus' teachings were pretty close to communism. Just sayin'...

Jesus was about as far from a Communist as one could be. Atheism was the offical state religion so how could a Man that proclaimed Himself to be the Son of God, in addition to God incarnate espouse such a belief. There is no way to reconile the two.

Jesus proclaimed that the individual was far more important to God than the State, although He did say that obeying the law, both those established by God as well as by the government, was a central tenent of Christianity.

While Jesus certainly rejected materialism, there was still a lot more depth to His message than that.

“What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don’t they come from your desires that battle within you? You want something but don’t get it. You kill and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight. You do not have, because you do not ask God. When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures. You adulterous people, don’t you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world is an enemy of God.” - James 4:1-4

James also went on to say that true religion is visting widows and orphans and helping them in their hour of need.

However, it is important to realize that Class Struggle was one of the primary foundations of Communism, which in a nutshell was envy- one of the seven deadly sins, and also one of the Ten Commandments says not to covet.

Jesus was far more interested in someone that wanted a close, personal- an intimate relationship with God (much like that of a child with a parent), and ultimately those that are willing to obey God, and if necessary, to die for their faith. Not through jihad, but to become martyrs via persecution by others.

Jesus did not promise Christians an easy life- not by a longshot.

“...they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come." - Matthew 24:9-14

John 15:18 also reinforces the admonishment from Matthew: “If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you"

There are different types of communism, not all are against religion. There are Christian communist groups out there.

miditek wrote:

Carcass wrote:How is American democracy greater than, say, Finnish democracy?

We're not exactly comparing apples vs. apples her now are we? America is something along the lines of being sixty times larger (population wise) than Finland, and our two and a half centuries of accomplishments speak for themselves.

Not that the Finns shouldn't be proud of their own country mind you, as they've done rather well for themselves. Saying that one or the other is better is less accurate than saying that the two nations are dramatically different.

NeonVomit wrote:[Because it's America, duh. Also, according to miditek, it's allowed a marxist jihadist communist non-American nazi (who happens to be half black) to become president.

No, we have a far-left radical that came out of nowhere from one of the most corrupt political machines in the entire nation (Chicago). No, I do not believe that he's native born, and yes, judging by the company he keeps I would say that if he is not an active, practicing Muslim, then he certainly is sympathetic towards them and their plans to establish a caliphate.

I also strongly suspect that he hates the capitalist system so much that he is willing to stop at nothing to destroy it as we know it and to set up a socialist state along the lines of the former USSR right here in this country.

Those are beliefs that I feel rather strongly about, and you're certainly welcome to your own. You can crack all the jokes that you wish about my opinions but it will have absolutely no effect on them. None whatsover.

Mormegil wrote:Democracy is also an European invention and many of Jesus' teachings were pretty close to communism. Just sayin'...

Jesus was about as far from a Communist as one could be. Atheism was the offical state religion so how could a Man that proclaimed Himself to be the Son of God, in addition to God incarnate espouse such a belief. There is no way to reconile the two.

Jesus proclaimed that the individual was far more important to God than the State, although He did say that obeying the law, both those established by God as well as by the government, was a central tenent of Christianity.

While Jesus certainly rejected materialism, there was still a lot more depth to His message than that.

“What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don’t they come from your desires that battle within you? You want something but don’t get it. You kill and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight. You do not have, because you do not ask God. When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures. You adulterous people, don’t you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world is an enemy of God.” - James 4:1-4

James also went on to say that true religion is visting widows and orphans and helping them in their hour of need.

However, it is important to realize that Class Struggle was one of the primary foundations of Communism, which in a nutshell was envy- one of the seven deadly sins, and also one of the Ten Commandments says not to covet.

Jesus was far more interested in someone that wanted a close, personal- an intimate relationship with God (much like that of a child with a parent), and ultimately those that are willing to obey God, and if necessary, to die for their faith. Not through jihad, but to become martyrs via persecution by others.

Jesus did not promise Christians an easy life- not by a longshot.

“...they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come." - Matthew 24:9-14

John 15:18 also reinforces the admonishment from Matthew: “If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you"

What I have learned in my life and walk as a Christian was that I should reject materialism due to the quarrels it creates, that "Love of the world", means the love of the things that result from the world. I've learned that one of the core roots of envy is when people do not have the necessary means to life, therefore a system that feeds on the poorest breeds sin.
The poor are the blessed, and to judge a society, look to how they treat the worst off among them.

miditek wrote:Saying that one or the other is better is less accurate than saying that the two nations are dramatically different.

Evaluating countries makes little sense as they are different qualitatively - not just quantitatively. My point exactly.

Good decision, because he has been stabilized the world in short time. For those Americans, who doesn't like black people: you have to remember, that white people aren't USA's native people.

Babylonian wrote:Good decision, because he has been stabilized the world in short time. For those Americans, who doesn't like black people: you have to remember, that white people aren't USA's native people.

Yeah, and those natives never saw smallpox coming *chuckle*

Babylonian wrote:Good decision, because he has been stabilized the world in short time. For those Americans, who doesn't like black people: you have to remember, that white people aren't USA's native people.

Well, if you want to get nitpicky about it, USA does not have any native people, because the American Indians wandered to USA via land bridge, or narrow strait from Asia.

Wasnt there some studies done that said American Indians actually had some similar DNA to the Finnish?

icecab21 wrote:There are different types of communism, not all are against religion. There are Christian communist groups out there.

Stranger things happen - I've seen Jewish neo-nazis ...
But christian communists are pretty fucked up too.

ill give a little passage

Communism or communalism

A number of Christians, of various political persuasions, object to the use of the word communism in the term "Christian communism" due to that word's association with the governments of nations such as the Soviet Union, Cuba, China, and North Korea, which are seen or have been seen as oppressive in the US. Many of the policies adopted by the governments of those countries were arguably un-Christian in character, including official state hostility towards religious institutions. As such, many Christians argue that the title of Christian communalism should be used, rather than Christian communism.[3]

On the other hand, some Christian communists[who?] believe that it is necessary to employ the word communism in order to capture the essence of their position on economics. They point out the existence of significant communist opposition to the totalitarian "communist states" of the 20th century (including, for example, Trotskyism), and argue that, if they were to abandon the term communism, it would only serve to further obscure the history of that opposition. Thus, these Christian communists hold that the term 'Christian communism' is accurate and appropriate, as long as it is specified that they belong to the democratic, anti-Stalinist branch of communism.

Religious cults often practice communalism. In their compounds there exists an all for one, one for all attitude in the strictest sense. The Branch Davidians in Waco practiced this philosophy, so did Jonestown. Jim Jones was said to have been a member of the communist party.

miditek wrote:

NeonVomit wrote:[Because it's America, duh. Also, according to miditek, it's allowed a marxist jihadist communist non-American nazi (who happens to be half black) to become president.

No, we have a far-left radical that came out of nowhere from one of the most corrupt political machines in the entire nation (Chicago). No, I do not believe that he's native born, and yes, judging by the company he keeps I would say that if he is not an active, practicing Muslim, then he certainly is sympathetic towards them and their plans to establish a caliphate.

I also strongly suspect that he hates the capitalist system so much that he is willing to stop at nothing to destroy it as we know it and to set up a socialist state along the lines of the former USSR right here in this country.

Those are beliefs that I feel rather strongly about, and you're certainly welcome to your own. You can crack all the jokes that you wish about my opinions but it will have absolutely no effect on them. None whatsover.

You are insane. Seek professional help. Nao. An easier solution would be to ACTUALLY READ WHAT COMMUNISM AND ISLAM ARE ABOUT before you realise what you are saying MAKES NO SENSE and have NO FACTUAL EVIDENCE TO BACK IT UP.

Seriously, throwing statements around with no substantial evidence to back them up just doesn't cut it.