Stratovarius Community

Posted: **Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:50 pm**

the same way you heart Einstein's "Theory of Relativity" and it was proven something like 50 years ago

Posted: **Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:17 pm**

@Stratoheart: I'll try to find out more info about how it was demonstrated in my University, tomorrow it's my second day of my second course and I'm gonna start Astronomy, maybe in a week I can give u a long explanation. I know that one of the facts, appart from the expansion the Universe, is the Microwave Background, and some other radiations, I think. But I'll search for information!

Posted: **Fri Sep 16, 2005 12:37 pm**

The issue of the origin of the universe is indeed not understandable. Nothing appears out of nothing, that's one of the principal laws of nature. So there must have been a cause beyond the universe, inciting it to step into being and expand. Aristotle has called this force (or whatever) "the unmoved mover" (if that's the correct translation, but I guess you know what I mean). Even Kant (who really did not argue relegiously at all) stated that this primary cause MUST be assumed- this is a compelling logical prerequisite for everything else.

By the way, the buddhist philosophy / religion belives in eons, that consist of breath-like movings of the universe within a very long range of time. Like space expanding and collapsing again...

Posted: **Fri Sep 16, 2005 2:31 pm**

StratoHeart wrote:
Luther_Harkon wrote:
Big Bang theory is not that acceptable anymore
I'm sorry to tell you that Bigbang is no longer a theory, but a fact that has been demonstrated, not only mathematically, also experimentaly.
Really?

Could you tell me where can I read more about it? Because even with the mathematics and physics demonstrations and experiments I still read everywhere about the Big Bang "Theory". If now it's considered a fact, I really don't know...

For all one needs to know about the Big Bang theory etc., just follow this link:

http://www.umich.edu/~gs265/bigbang.htm

OR.. one might want to look up wikipedia's page for the Big Bang as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_bang

Posted: **Mon Sep 19, 2005 8:51 am**

StratoHeart wrote:
htcdude wrote:Where is evolution today? And where's the half man half monkey?
That's a nice question, considering that still there are monkeys!

Still hasn't been answered though..i wonder why.

And how can you believe the Big Bang? First there was nothing, then nothing exploded and created everything

It's like a volcano erupting and creating a city.

Posted: **Mon Sep 19, 2005 2:36 pm**

htcdude wrote:
StratoHeart wrote:
htcdude wrote:Where is evolution today? And where's the half man half monkey?
That's a nice question, considering that still there are monkeys!
Still hasn't been answered though..i wonder why.

And how can you believe the Big Bang? First there was nothing, then nothing exploded and created everything It's like a volcano erupting and creating a city.

Have you even read the previous posts?

Did you check the links I provided?

Seemingly not, because you are still asking this question.

Posted: **Mon Sep 19, 2005 3:12 pm**

shaz wrote:
Have you even read the previous posts?
Did you check the links I provided?

Seemingly not, because you are still asking this question.

Don't bother Shaz, I have found out that those who critize Evolution and Big Bang theories don't have even the basic knowledge in Physics or Biology, hence they make those ridiculous analogies.

And that's ultimately why they conceptualize their world view by means of Religion. Knowledge is power, as Francis Bacon once said. Those who don't have it, resort to being under someone else's authority. It is easier to follow almighty commands than to think for oneself. It is scary to be responsible for oneself.

Posted: **Mon Sep 19, 2005 7:14 pm**

htcdude wrote:
StratoHeart wrote:
htcdude wrote:Where is evolution today? And where's the half man half monkey?
That's a nice question, considering that still there are monkeys!
Still hasn't been answered though..i wonder why.

And how can you believe the Big Bang? First there was nothing, then nothing exploded and created everything It's like a volcano erupting and creating a city.

Well, I supose that you don't have any idea of what a singularity is. And you won't believe they exist when you discover what they are. But they do exist (and it's not a good thing, because they bring a lot of headaches to those who study them, like I'll do in some years). It's a point where matter (or energey, however u want to call it, they're the same but in different states) collapses into just one point, an infinitesimal point. And please, don't tell me that's imposible. If you don't believe it and don't want to learn, keep living in your all mighty soap bubble, beein disconected from the real world. Whatever, this points are found inside black holes. In a black hole, matter falls into the singularity, and it keeps becoming heavier and heavier. Well, if an enormous black hole ate the whole Universe, maybe later could become a "white hole" which would explode into a Big Bang. That's just one way to see it and explain it, not the way it was.
It's the same that can happen with a WC. It swallows everything you throw at it. But if it gets stuck, it can throw away all that was inside of it. That's the same machanism

Posted: **Tue Sep 20, 2005 3:32 am**

Lapazeus wrote:
shaz wrote:
Have you even read the previous posts?
Did you check the links I provided?

Seemingly not, because you are still asking this question.
Don't bother Shaz, I have found out that those who critize Evolution and Big Bang theories don't have even the basic knowledge in Physics or Biology, hence they make those ridiculous analogies.

And that's ultimately why they conceptualize their world view by means of Religion. Knowledge is power, as Francis Bacon once said. Those who don't have it, resort to being under someone else's authority. It is easier to follow almighty commands than to think for oneself. It is scary to be responsible for oneself.

Always the same, always the same... I am catholic, I know physics, biology, and everything. Well, I'm not a "master", as you seem to be... anyway, I know what people talk about. I heard everything you linked me before, still I don't know if Big Bang was real or not, and I don't know until which point it's so certainly true... which physics laws was acting in the Universe at that point? Do we base it by the laws we know, the laws from Earth? Don't we suppose which kind of matter called "nothing" was there and which "forces" have acted to make it explode, or expand, or everything? Yes, we SUPPOSE it, by equations and mathematics. This is not what happens with the Theory of Relativity, something we see before our eyes (hope you get me)..

And at the same time I don't know until which point this certainty would break my faith... I don't separate the things. Bible says that God create everything, but don't say "how" He did... He created the light, and then... BANG (BIG?)! There was light! Come on. A believer that really think about the nature of things, about the meaning of the God's kingdom, would never bother about it because, as I said, scinence goes each time far inside the mystery of God. It's a circle, everythig will end in a common place. So, I would write things by a different way, as I see them: people who criticize religions/christianis actually don't know what exactly it preaches, even inside this religion. And before you talk I have no base in religion, I talk a lot with priests about it. You should talk about physics with them.

My God is love. And love moves the Universe, "and the key to the Universe is love", anyway, a brother wrote everything here: "Everybody believe in God, some just call them Nature". Everything is the fucking same thing. In the end, everything will reach the same place.

Posted: **Tue Sep 20, 2005 9:23 am**

shaz wrote:
htcdude wrote:
StratoHeart wrote: That's a nice question, considering that still there are monkeys!
Still hasn't been answered though..i wonder why.

And how can you believe the Big Bang? First there was nothing, then nothing exploded and created everything It's like a volcano erupting and creating a city.
Have you even read the previous posts?
Did you check the links I provided?

Seemingly not, because you are still asking this question.

Sorry didn't see the links..must be blind in my old age! I'll have a read of them during work in a bit

What about the half man half monkey's though? Where are they?

Posted: **Tue Sep 20, 2005 5:31 pm**

That link you posted earlier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_bang) says itself that the Big Bang is just a theory.

Posted: **Tue Sep 20, 2005 5:41 pm**

This other site you posted (http://www.umich.edu/~gs265/bigbang.htm)

This explosion is known as the Big Bang. At the point of this event all of the matter and energy of space was contained at one point. What exisisted prior to this event is completely unknown and is a matter of pure speculation.

They don't know what existed because there wan't anything.

However, science has devised some sketch of what probably happened, based on what is known about the universe today.

A sketch? Of what PROBABLY happened?

See it's all just theories and guessing they say so themselves.

Posted: **Tue Sep 20, 2005 6:27 pm**

StratoHeart wrote: My God is love. And love moves the Universe, "and the key to the Universe is love", anyway, a brother wrote everything here: "Everybody believe in God, some just call them Nature". Everything is the fucking same thing. In the end, everything will reach the same place.

I quite agree with you on this. My beliefs are not very different from yours.

That doesn't sound Catholicism to me though. This is at least a very unorthodox way of seeing things, if you call yourself a Catholic. If you don't agree with everything Catholic church & Pope says, you shouldn't call yourself a Catholic. All sinners & pagans go to hell, remember? Not very loving to me.

You can of course have your own interpretions of Bible, but that's your own belief, not anyone else's.

You have your personal beliefs - or shall we say, Faith. And I have mine. Everyone have their own. Why do we need religious institutions & churches to control our life.

Big Bang theory does not rule out God, yet some Creationists insist that Earth was created in seven days and Blah Blah... We do not know what was before Big Bang, one can say it was God/Energy (whatever! a pink elefant if you want) who created this Universe and the laws of nature.

A believer that really think about the nature of things--

I respect those Christians who can really give their reasons for their Faith.

Blind faith is worse than not believing in anything

Posted: **Tue Sep 20, 2005 8:24 pm**

Lapazeus wrote:
StratoHeart wrote:
A believer that really think about the nature of things--
I respect those Christians who can really give their reasons for their Faith.
Blind faith is worse than not believing in anything
I totally agree with you in that point. I respect everybody, whatever their religions are. I just don't respect some institutions that take proffit from their parishioners.

And about Big Bang, got to say that I haven't read those two articles, but they are completely wrong, because big bang theory has been completely prooved, making it convert from theory to "truth" (if we are not mistaken). One of the biggest prooves is the microwave background radiation, which is equally distributed along the universe and must have appeared from a huge central explosion. And in that center, there are also evidences that there was an explosion, and everything is just expanding from that point.

Posted: **Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:52 am**

Luther_Harkon wrote:
Lapazeus wrote:
StratoHeart wrote: I respect those Christians who can really give their reasons for their Faith.
Blind faith is worse than not believing in anything
I totally agree with you in that point. I respect everybody, whatever their religions are. I just don't respect some institutions that take proffit from their parishioners.

And about Big Bang, got to say that I haven't read those two articles, but they are completely wrong, because big bang theory has been completely prooved, making it convert from theory to "truth" (if we are not mistaken). One of the biggest prooves is the microwave background radiation, which is equally distributed along the universe and must have appeared from a huge central explosion. And in that center, there are also evidences that there was an explosion, and everything is just expanding from that point.
Can you find any arcticles to proove this please? (I'm not asking this in a nasty way by the way, would be intresting to read though)

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2005 8:43 am**

htcdude wrote:
Luther_Harkon wrote:
Lapazeus wrote: I totally agree with you in that point. I respect everybody, whatever their religions are. I just don't respect some institutions that take proffit from their parishioners.

And about Big Bang, got to say that I haven't read those two articles, but they are completely wrong, because big bang theory has been completely prooved, making it convert from theory to "truth" (if we are not mistaken). One of the biggest prooves is the microwave background radiation, which is equally distributed along the universe and must have appeared from a huge central explosion. And in that center, there are also evidences that there was an explosion, and everything is just expanding from that point.
Can you find any arcticles to proove this please? (I'm not asking this in a nasty way by the way, would be intresting to read though)
Try this article at Space.com:

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/m ... 30211.html

It's titled "About WMAP and the Cosmic Microwave Background" A really informative, yet understandable article.

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2005 10:01 am**

Kool will have a read a let you know

EDIT: Where did all the Hydrogen appear from???

.

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2005 3:02 pm**

htcdude wrote:
Where is evolution today? And where's the half man half monkey?

Here.

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2005 3:13 pm**

'between four and three million years ago'

That's not today.

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2005 3:42 pm**

htcdude wrote:'between four and three million years ago'

That's not today.

Yeah, it still is here today, but only as a skeleton. It's species didn't make it to the modern age.
There's nothing illogical about that, now is there? Nature is full of winners and losers.

Only the strongest or the best adaptive survive to wonder who got left behind, if you know what I mean.

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2005 3:48 pm**

They've been proved also that they could either be deformed humans.

What i meant by my question was where is evolution today, i mean what is evolving at this point in time?

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2005 3:52 pm**

htcdude wrote:They've been proved also that they could either be deformed humans.

What i meant by my question was where is evolution today, i mean what is evolving at this point in time?

It's all around you, but don't expect to see a fish turn into a lizard in front of your eyes. An evolution of an entire species to something wholly different takes millions of years.. a mere human lifetime may not be enough for the smallest of changes.

You have to get your mind off the present moment and look at things on a broader timespan.

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2005 3:58 pm**

i know what you mean but at the moment there's no proof of anything in the process of evolution.

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2005 4:05 pm**

htcdude wrote:
EDIT: Where did all the Hydrogen appear from???

.

As I said, the energy that was sent out from the explosion, as it get colder, started to collapse into mass. Photons collided with each other creating elementary particles. Energy became Quarks and electrons. Then Quarks united with each other and became Protons (2 Quarks Up & 1 Down) and neutrons (1Quark up & 2 down). When the universe got colder, by their electromagnetic force fields, protons and electrons united, but they don't collided bcause of the nuclear forces. And there you have; a proton and an electron: Hydrogen!

About the Big Bang, you've got the articles posted by Shaz. If you want a more formal text, then you should reffer to cosmology, thermodynamics and nuclear physics books. But they've got to be very modern to have articles about the last evidences of Big Bang.

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2005 4:07 pm**

I still don't get how the explosion happened sorry. How can nothing explode?

Posted: **Thu Sep 22, 2005 10:08 pm**

htcdude wrote:I still don't get how the explosion happened sorry. How can nothing explode?

well, "nothing" did not just explode, there was a whole bunch of matter squashed togeter and then just burst apart due to the inmense preasure

Posted: **Sun Sep 25, 2005 11:04 pm**

All of these theories are precisely theories because they haven't been proven. I mean who can experimentally find out the Big Bang happened? I'm afraid maybe we will never find out.

Posted: **Mon Sep 26, 2005 4:16 pm**

fernando_levy wrote:All of these theories are precisely theories because they haven't been proven. I mean who can experimentally find out the Big Bang happened? I'm afraid maybe we will never find out.

Maybe we won't, maybe we will. The nice thing about science is that it is always open for new explanations and such.

Posted: **Wed Sep 28, 2005 8:49 am**

in my opinion the concept of religion is based on fear... fear of the unknown... And if you look at every religion in the world, they are all based on fear, going to hell, reincanating as a lowly bug, or whatever is the punishement for when you do things they don't agree with. Religion plays on the fear of death and the fear of what those poors bastards can't understand, religion in the true sense of the word is something you live in your heart, it's your own conception of what is. Who else but me knows what i want to experience during my lifetime, If there really is a superior being i am certain that he had enough intelligence to give everybody an intuitive knowledge of their options as what to experience in life.

on a side note i personnaly believe that there is never anything "bad" that could happen, every experience is meant to learn, when you stop cowering in fear because something bad happened to you and you look at it to see what you can learn from that experience, the pain from that experience will cease because it is no longer something that is good or bad, it's something that you learned something from. everything is what it should be in the best of worlds we may not always see it but it's there...

damn i was on fire there

Posted: **Wed Sep 28, 2005 10:23 am**

And so you should fear hell.....it doesn't sound pretty

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