Religions Based on Fear

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shaz
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Re: Religions Based on Fear

Post by shaz » Tue Sep 13, 2005 11:12 pm

Bones wrote:Heaven doesn't exist. In every religion people think that if you don't believe in their God, you will be sent to hell or something like that. :D

Ok no more jokes. I am an atheist. I chose this way, and if someone wants to be Christian, it's ok, I have no problems with any religion. I accept even Satanism, it's only the other side of Christianity.
As far as I know, satanism is more of an ideology than an actual myth-based religion, not to be confused with the so-called satan worship, or whatever the correct term is. Correct me if I'm wrong, though. :)
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Re: Religions Based on Fear

Post by stratoplayer » Tue Sep 13, 2005 11:15 pm

i thought satanism was denying goodness therfore your god would be the devil, but the churh invented the goat blood rituals and the like
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Re: Religions Based on Fear

Post by shaz » Tue Sep 13, 2005 11:25 pm

htcdude wrote:
shaz wrote:
htcdude wrote:
shaz wrote:One thing always comes to my mind. Where was god & christianity, say, when the first humans came to existence tens of thousands of years ago? No one worshipped the christian God, there was no Bible or anything. Christianity, like all religions, was developed by the people themselves to answer many questions about the world, that puzzled them. I view religion as a purely manmade thing, and this perception kind of ruins the whole idea of a higher being / afterlife etc. on my part.
Cos there was no world tens of thousands of years ago, God created man and woman. God was always there with Adam and Eve (who he created), then they both fell into sin and God cursed the world with death.
Uh, what about the several million year old rocks found all over earth? And, secondly, fossils of animals predating man by millions of years have been found all over the earth.
That can't be prooved, even evolutionists say this...there's no proof for any of it it's just theories.
Let's take two quite different explanations.. now which of these seems more logical, more realistic:

The religious point-of-view: Earth (unlike the millions of other planets in the universe, it seems) is created by some mysterious means in just six/seven days out of nowhere by God, just like that. Poof.

The scientific point-of-view: Read Luther-Harkon's post from above.. the long one.

Oh, and BTW, the Earth really is millions of years old, it is not just a "theory" and has been proven using modern radiometric (is this the right term, I don't know it in english?) age-definition methods.
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Re: Religions Based on Fear

Post by Luther_Harkon » Tue Sep 13, 2005 11:28 pm

First of all, I have to say that I agree with BEG that people sometimes behave so stupidly. But I've got to say, that there are also good people who do not believe in Jesus, God, Ala, Buda or Whoever you want to mention. They just do only what we consider good actions.
That can't be prooved, even evolutionists say this...there's no proof for any of it it's just theories.
Well Htcdude, I most supose that in your life you haven't read a serious boock about zoology abording that matter. Evolution is actually prooved, in many different ways. So, for a moment forget about that wall that religion has built in your mind, and read a book about evolution, and discover the truth that lies in all living being,
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Re: Religions Based on Fear

Post by shaz » Tue Sep 13, 2005 11:29 pm

stratoplayer wrote:i thought satanism was denying goodness therfore your god would be the devil, but the churh invented the goat blood rituals and the like
Exactly. This was what was in my mind. :)
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Re: Religions Based on Fear

Post by stratoplayer » Tue Sep 13, 2005 11:51 pm

Luther_Harkon wrote:First of all, I have to say that I agree with BEG that people sometimes behave so stupidly. But I've got to say, that there are also good people who do not believe in Jesus, God, Ala, Buda or Whoever you want to mention. They just do only what we consider good actions.
yes, that is so true, athiest have the bad rep of being soulless sons of bithces... well im sort of atheist, i beleive in souls (the ethereal intangible part of the mind which can be defined as your personality, concience and sense of guilt) and i beleive in a code of conduct and honor.... (damn that sounded very cliche!) i have a sense of righ and wrong, albeit it wasn't written in stone ( 8) )
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Re: Religions Based on Fear

Post by fernando_levy » Wed Sep 14, 2005 1:59 am

Personally, I don't know what to believe in anymore... my family (especially on my mother's side) is strongly catholic, but i know i should not become a catholic just because they are... i have my own moral code and that is enough for me. I can be happy without a religion, I'm sure about it, even though some people think there's no point to life without a religion....

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Re: Religions Based on Fear

Post by StratoHeart » Wed Sep 14, 2005 3:18 am

Religion, Science and Art have the same purpose. Science still resists to join the other two.

Jesus said: "Go until the end of the visible and you will reach the invisible"
Science will reach God denying His existence until the last moment.

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Re: Religions Based on Fear

Post by StratoHeart » Wed Sep 14, 2005 3:28 am

shaz wrote: Let's take two quite different explanations.. now which of these seems more logical, more realistic:
Reality for human beings doesn't go far than our eyes can see. They talk with the supreme certainty, but in the infinite Universe, we can't see a grain of sand... Why do we believe in results of equation when they "show" us the newest planet of the Universe? And if "heaven" and "hell" are another planet? We don't know fucking nothing!

God didn't "create" just the Earth... God IS the Universe! Its perfect balance and harmony... something that is, was and will always be! The divine justice: you get what you give - THIS is the justice of the Universe. I don't think it's that hard to imagine. So, when Jesus talk about love, and say "God is LOVE", that's what he talks about.

So, I say again: Science will reach God denying His existence until the last moment.

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Re: Religions Based on Fear

Post by Stealth » Wed Sep 14, 2005 5:49 am

StratoHeart wrote:Science will reach God denying His existence until the last moment.
I think that in the not so near future mankind will evolve to understand that the existence of god and jesus cannot be reasonably considered as real, from ANY point of view. This is already slowly happening, as there are much more people who switch from being religious to being atheist than vice versa. Faith proves nothing and explains nothing.
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Re: Religions Based on Fear

Post by STRATOPHILIUS » Wed Sep 14, 2005 7:55 am

I just find it kinda funny that Charles Darwin the guy who came up with the thoery of evolution, later denounced it saying that the world was too complicated to of been by just chance....and in fact if you use statistics the universe beeing created by just some big bang has the same likely-hood of a tornado blowing through a trash dump and building a fully functional in perfect condition boeing 747....makes you think :)

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Re: Religions Based on Fear

Post by htcdude » Wed Sep 14, 2005 8:52 am

@BEG: Yes i agree with virtually all of what you are saying, but not all rich, beautiful etc people aren't bad.

@Luther_Harkon: I wouldn't mind reading this book, it might be easier if you could point out how they have proved it, as it seems they have proved it on things they have made up. They say millions of years, when it could be just as easily said billions of years, or few thousand years. A lot of fossils and stuff that have been said to be millions of years old have later been discouvered to be only a few thousand years old.

Also various experiments have been done to disprove evolution...a man took a snail that he found to some scientists and asked how old it was, they said it was about 400,000,000 years old or something, when in fact the man had found it in his garden and had killed it.
"Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me."

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Re: Religions Based on Fear

Post by Luther_Harkon » Wed Sep 14, 2005 10:15 am

A lot of fossils and stuff that have been said to be millions of years old have later been discouvered to be only a few thousand years old.
There different kind of tests to date those fossils. First of all, their geological stratum. For where the fossil is down the ground, we can know aproximately it's age. And apart from that, we've got the Carbon14 test. It's a kind of chemical test that dates wathever has a part of organic matter. Because this just rots and with Carbon14 we can know how rotted it is, and so, how old it is.
you could point out how they have proved it, as it seems they have proved it on things they have made up
We've got different kind of demonstrations. First of all, we've got genetics. Genetically, it can be prooved that we are extremely similar to apes. But, what it's more important, it's been prooved that living beings change their genetic code to get "stronger" in their habbitats. Apart from that we've got arkeology, which we have discuted before.
a man took a snail that he found to some scientists and asked how old it was, they said it was about 400,000,000 years old or something, when in fact the man had found it in his garden and had killed it.
Definetely those were not good scientists. A respectable scienstist never gets to a conclusions only with a first view to something... but unfortunately a lo of them do that (the same way that people makes and idea of someone's believes just for what she/he's wearing.
They talk with the supreme certainty, but in the infinite Universe, we can't see a grain of sand...
The Universe is NOT infinite!!! It is extremely huge, but not infinite. We've found it's boundaries, which are actually expanding, but not infinite.
Why do we believe in results of equation when they "show" us the newest planet of the Universe
A simple equation does not show us any planet. Planets are found by direct observation. Their gravity makes oscilate their suns. And when astronomers realize that a star is oscilating, their search for the planets; and find them. But no fuckin equation tells us what we gonna find in the next corner.
God didn't "create" just the Earth... God IS the Universe! Its perfect balance and harmony... something that is, was and will always be!
UNIVERSE = PERFECT BALANCE AND HARMONY!!!!!!! Are you crazy, man! Our Universe is everything except harmony. Huge nuclear explosions that come out from stars (when our Suns has done, entire cities have lost their electricity due to the electromagnethic storm that came from the explosion); stars just exploding in fire balls bigger than our entire Solar System, devastating everything being near (supernovaes); stars that after exploding collapse into a black hole, a place with so extreme gravity that even light cannot escape, and that destroy everything that falls inside them (and don't tell me that this is just a theory, because they have benn found by observation), stars that rotate at milions km/h and do intense emisions of radio-waves, galaxies colliding, gallaxies with black holes in their center, planets being bombed by astheroids... Do you think this is perfect balance and harmony... fuck not! it's just chaos! a bit tidy chaos!

And Universe has not always been, I've told u above in my "Brief History of time". It appeared just 15.000.000.000 years ago, and it has been expanding since then. If it always will be, we cannot certainly know. It seems that yes, that it will never disappear. But it'll get colder and colder, till there's no heat in it. So, a dead always expanding Universe. But maybe when it gets colder, it may stop expanding and it can collapse into a enormous black hole. This cannot be know. But what we DO KNOW, is that Universe has not existed FOREVER. And with Universe also were created time and space, which didn't exist before.
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Re: Religions Based on Fear

Post by browneyedgirl » Wed Sep 14, 2005 10:19 am

All I got to say about this Evolution topic is: There is a verse in the Bible which states,"A day is like a thousand years with God." So, maybe, this Evolution is not as far fetched in reality. It might've taken thousands of years in "God-time" to create the Universe.
In 8th grade my Science teacher was a devout Christian(she went to the same church as my family!)and she belived in evolution, saying that it was God engineered&he was at the helm watching it happen, so to speak. People at our church knew she was teaching this, but never confronted her or try to change her guidelines in the classroom. My other Science teachers in this Bible Belt school just took the cowards way out&did not approach the Evolution vs. Creativism theories at all.

@StratoHeart, you are so right--at the heart of true Christianity is the Golen Rule. Do unto Others as you would have them do unto you.(You get what you give) If people would just follow that one simple sentence, it would be true peace among the human population. But, most fall short&eventually we all pay the price, and most times not in a good way!
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Re: Religions Based on Fear

Post by shaz » Wed Sep 14, 2005 1:16 pm

STRATOPHILIUS wrote:I just find it kinda funny that Charles Darwin the guy who came up with the thoery of evolution, later denounced it saying that the world was too complicated to of been by just chance....and in fact if you use statistics the universe beeing created by just some big bang has the same likely-hood of a tornado blowing through a trash dump and building a fully functional in perfect condition boeing 747....makes you think :)
Think of it like this: if things wouldn't have happened as they did, regardless of the minuscule chance of life ever happening, we wouldn't be here talking about it.
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Re: Religions Based on Fear

Post by htcdude » Wed Sep 14, 2005 1:34 pm

Where is evolution today? And where's the half man half monkey?
"Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me."

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Re: Religions Based on Fear

Post by StratoHeart » Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:45 pm

Luther_Harkon wrote: The Universe is NOT infinite!!! It is extremely huge, but not infinite. We've found it's boundaries, which are actually expanding, but not infinite.
I know. :wink:
And we should take 300.000.000.000.000 light-years to complete its "circunference" (thanks uncle Einstein!). We still know nothing but A GRAIN OF SAND of it.
Boundaries? hmm....
Luther_Harkon wrote:And Universe has not always been, I've told u above in my "Brief History of time". It appeared just 15.000.000.000 years ago, and it has been expanding since then. If it always will be, we cannot certainly know. It seems that yes, that it will never disappear. But it'll get colder and colder, till there's no heat in it. So, a dead always expanding Universe. But maybe when it gets colder, it may stop expanding and it can collapse into a enormous black hole. This cannot be know. But what we DO KNOW, is that Universe has not existed FOREVER. And with Universe also were created time and space, which didn't exist before.
Nice to talk with someone who owns the truth (we DO KNOW, and everything...)... you said tha Universe was "created". Created from what? So there was nothing before it?
It's hard for our imagination/intelligence/reason to think. And I say again: our reality/reason doesn't go far than our eyes can see. The creation of the Universe is still an infinite loop of questions without answers - and so it will always be.
And when you talk about time/space, you might know that time/space collapses in the Universe, ok? So it's hard to take a base when we talk about time/space out of here. Especially when we say it "didnt exist before"...

Wow, my time is over, but my words don't. I will be back soon to write more.

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Re: Religions Based on Fear

Post by Luther_Harkon » Wed Sep 14, 2005 3:37 pm

Nice to talk with someone who owns the truth (we DO KNOW, and everything...
I just refered to scientific knowledge that has been prooved. That was just to emphasy that it's not just a theory. I don't feel like a superior being owning the whole truth of the Universe, because obviously I don't (if I did, I wouldn't be posting here, I would be asking for my noble prize :lol:)
And when you talk about time/space, you might know that time/space collapses in the Universe, ok? So it's hard to take a base when we talk about time/space out of here. Especially when we say it "didnt exist before"...
Completely true. Maybe it's better to say that time started with our Universe, and there was no before, only then and after.
But if there's no before, God must have appeared at the same start point, the creation of Universe. So it cannot be his creation...

PD: when I said the Universe was created, well, better to say that the Universe appeared, becaus the word created implies a creator (in which I don't believe)
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Re: Religions Based on Fear

Post by shaz » Wed Sep 14, 2005 6:27 pm

I'd like to point out one thing.

The universe didn't actually "appear" out of nowhere, it was there all along, packed into an infinitesimally small & dense spot, which then expanded into a mind-boggling size in the fraction of a second. :)

Why? We don't know.. yet. ;)
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Re: Religions Based on Fear

Post by stratoplayer » Wed Sep 14, 2005 8:05 pm

yeah... so what is your point?
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Re: Religions Based on Fear

Post by Aresius » Thu Sep 15, 2005 12:48 am

IM AN ATHIEST

BUT .... EVERYONE belives in god... some people just call it "nature"
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Re: Religions Based on Fear

Post by shaz » Thu Sep 15, 2005 9:17 am

stratoplayer wrote:yeah... so what is your point?
My point is, that there was no need for a creator (God, David Hasselhoff etc.) in the big bang. The universe wasn't created from scratch, because it existed all along, the whole thing was just packed into a small space which then expanded enough for life, stars and all that to develop.
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Re: Religions Based on Fear

Post by StratoHeart » Thu Sep 15, 2005 2:26 pm

Big Bang theory is not that acceptable anymore :wink:

And it's still strange to imagine... how small would something be for expanding to something as big as our Universe?

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Re: Religions Based on Fear

Post by Stealth » Thu Sep 15, 2005 2:38 pm

StratoHeart wrote:Big Bang theory is not that acceptable anymore :wink:

And it's still strange to imagine... how small would something be for expanding to something as big as our Universe?
Yes, that's much more weird than imagining god creating the universe out of nothing :roll:
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Re: Religions Based on Fear

Post by StratoHeart » Thu Sep 15, 2005 3:04 pm

Luther_Harkon wrote: I just refered to scientific knowledge that has been prooved. That was just to emphasy that it's not just a theory.
I see your point and, most important, I respect it. But still I think we are not able to say "we know" when the subject is the origin of Universe... and that's what I talk about.
I read, hear and love everything related to the Universe. Universe didn't existed forever the way we know it. It may has been origined somewhere, somehow, from somewhat... that's the mistery.

And I prefer the Einstein theory of the static Universe. Because... if it's expanding, it's expanding inside of what? Something bigger, a bigger space, I suppose. So how would we call it?
We human being are born, we grow up, we die. Things we create are used and then they're over. We know everything with a beggining and an end. We cannot imagine something existing forever... but... forever? What is forever?

Do you see the limits of our race? Our knowledge is inside the field of our perception. There's a lot of things we will never understand... because, maybe you think different, but something out of the Earth prooved inside the Earth is not enough for me. We cannot apply our physics' rules out of here. Our planet still surprises us with its events, what would we say about the Universe?

And as strange as the first point of the universe is the origin of life here. From a living molecule into the ocean evolved every living species we know today...

We have much more to learn yet. And maybe we are trying to go far than we can, so we forget some questions at our side: mysery, violence (against humans and nature), hunger, wars... my religion turn my eyes to this questions. Sometimes I hear God saying to mankind: "Stop looking for me and start looking to yoursef!"

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Re: Religions Based on Fear

Post by StratoHeart » Thu Sep 15, 2005 3:19 pm

Stealth wrote: I think that in the not so near future mankind will evolve to understand that the existence of god and jesus cannot be reasonably considered as real, from ANY point of view. This is already slowly happening, as there are much more people who switch from being religious to being atheist than vice versa. Faith proves nothing and explains nothing.
This is something natural... and even in Jesus' era it was evident. Illusions hit poor minds easily. I know some persons that turned atheist after reading The Da Vinci Code... oh, man.

But maybe you also notice in which point of our existence we are... As long as the world proudly turns atheist, love and respect goes away, chaos becomes bigger and nature becomes furious against us. I see things this way, and so I cannot say how much mankind is "evolving" with all this.

And the existence of Jesus has already been prooved. The "new" question is about his divinity - another difficult point, as long as we all are divine.

Faith may not prove anything under our human points of view, but, at least, could guide us to a better life.

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Re: Religions Based on Fear

Post by StratoHeart » Thu Sep 15, 2005 3:26 pm

Stealth wrote:
StratoHeart wrote:Big Bang theory is not that acceptable anymore :wink:

And it's still strange to imagine... how small would something be for expanding to something as big as our Universe?
Yes, that's much more weird than imagining god creating the universe out of nothing :roll:
Doesn't this version you wrote sound like that one which says: "Universe appeared from nothing"?

What about if you ask "how" did God create it out of "nothing"? Even in bible this is not specified, am I right?

My point is that the looping is infinite, the questions become each time more complicated. To me the more science proves something, more far it goes inside the God's mystery.

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Re: Religions Based on Fear

Post by Luther_Harkon » Thu Sep 15, 2005 3:51 pm

Big Bang theory is not that acceptable anymore
I'm sorry to tell you that Bigbang is no longer a theory, but a fact that has been demonstrated, not only mathematically, also experimentaly.
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Re: Religions Based on Fear

Post by StratoHeart » Thu Sep 15, 2005 3:51 pm

htcdude wrote:Where is evolution today? And where's the half man half monkey?
That's a nice question, considering that still there are monkeys!

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Re: Religions Based on Fear

Post by StratoHeart » Thu Sep 15, 2005 4:06 pm

Luther_Harkon wrote:
Big Bang theory is not that acceptable anymore
I'm sorry to tell you that Bigbang is no longer a theory, but a fact that has been demonstrated, not only mathematically, also experimentaly.
Really? :shock:

Could you tell me where can I read more about it? Because even with the mathematics and physics demonstrations and experiments I still read everywhere about the Big Bang "Theory". If now it's considered a fact, I really don't know...

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