Riots in France&The Problems that Led To Them

[MaFiaBoY]

BUT it doesn't change anything to the fact those people are human from the biological point of view. Hitler WAS human, Staline WAS human as well and those people who burn cars are also humans. Evil ones maybe, but still humans.

Well, it depends what meaning do you give to "humans".
Humans can be a human being = someone alive.
but it also has a second meaning, for ex "who shows humanity" = who cares of others (like a humanitarian mission, to help people in need for ex in Africa or India). Then, I would not call any of those "people" (expecially Hitler) a human.

I said "from the biological point of view", i.e. a living being of the species homo sapiens sapiens.

[Heiserich]

@ cliff: I'm afraid, it is quite a normal human reaction to categorize people, especially when you've been a victim of violence and crime yourself. But however, this is always unjust. As I read in the newspaper today, the vast majority of the muslim inhabitants of the banlieus are strictly against these violent riots. Actually, they are suffering from this themselves.

Of course, and I entirely agree with you.
However, you misunderstood what I meant (and I'm sorry for that).
I meant that most of the people who do that are muslims.
I NEVER meant that ALL the muslims do that!

Aahh. Okay, sorry. Didn't wanna make a racist out of you

However, with that "human"-topic: I also think, that every human being is and for lifetime stays being a human, no matter whatever crimes or atrocities he / she committed. And this has direct implications for the whole human-rights-issue. If it was possible for someone to lose its status as a human, it would also be possible to kill or torture in the name of of the law (Mr. Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld). The quality of a human as a human has to be an absolute taboo - or ultimately it's just the question who's in the position of defining for what kind of deeds one can lose that quality.

By that I don't want to say that you're pro-torture... I just believe it's important to keep considering everyone as a human, even if he's a mass murderer like Hitler... or a fucking stupid&brutal guy who starts burning buses with people in them. Ultimately that is what makes the difference between human rights and rule-of-law-values and their opponents.

[Jaakko]

Without a DNA test none of us is a certified Homo sapiens, until we're properly matched and labeled we're all just humanoids.

Complicated issues. That's how people work. Some go crazy and take sides, saying alot and doing nothing, some do everything they can to find out it's useless and so on. And things keep changing and people keep dying and buildings will be burned, just like they have been for like 10 thousand years. It's still a jungle, and to think it can be fully controlled is just as naive, as thinking it's not worth a try is arrogant. Getting emotional over it and being ignorant about it... Both make it worse, and those are what people tend to do when situations culminate. Luckily I'm not a French politician, and I can't blame myself for not caring about this issue, because there's nothing I can do about it anyway. So to the topic: I have nothing to say.

[cliff]

Back to the main topic. The riots continue in France, becoming bigger and bigger.

One innocent person was murdered yesterday while checking for a burning garbage.
I also heard that one spastic / physically handicapped person got several injuries after a group of "%people%" set the fire to a bus (the person was inside this bus).
They also started to burn a couple of churchs.

The governement decided to impose a curfew in the cities for which it is necessary. They also decided to bring more policemen there. No army forces yet.

It also seems that those riots started to contaminate other countries, like Germany, Spain or Belgium.

If you wanna know more about the riots, I found a really complete Wiki entry here : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_French_riots
And if you are really interested in the subject (@Nordic ?), you can also read this, about the Independance War in Algeria : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algerian_W ... dependence
(to sum up : the same kind of riots happened in Algeria 50 years ago - in Algeria there were about half Algerian, half French livers - the Algerian decided that the country belongs to them, so they kicked the French out from there.). Sounds like the history repeat.

I was reading an article about a russian intellectual. he said "In France, aliens are pampered. No one touches on the immigrant, we don't say anything bad against them, therefore they realized that they have the power, that people are scared of them, and that they could step on and attack". And I can tell you, from what I see and hear everyday, that this is 100% true.
It would be also nice to hear the opinion of other french people from this board.

[MaFiaBoY]

(to sum up : the same kind of riots happened in Algeria 50 years ago - in Algeria there were about half Algerian, half French livers - the Algerian decided that the country belongs to them, so they kicked the French out from there.). Sounds like the history repeat.

Corrections : There was about 90% algerian people in Algeria, and those people didn't have the same rights as the 10% french colons. So when the majority of the people is treated as sub-citizens by the government, I think it's pretty normal they start riots like that. And besides the problem now is TOTALLY different. Please stop making nonsense comparisons.

[cliff]

Corrections : There was about 90% algerian people in Algeria, and those people didn't have the same rights as the 10% french colons. So when the majority of the people is treated as sub-citizens by the government, I think it's pretty normal they start riots like that. And besides the problem now is TOTALLY different. Please stop making nonsense comparisons.

Ok, you might be right about the rates, but you're obviously wrong for the rest.
Get more information about the actual riots. Those "people" claim to do it because they want to have the same rights than french (the flats, the school...), they want to be more important, have better flats and so on.
But they still have the same rights. Even more, sometimes.

and if the situation wasn't similar to what happened in Algeria : why thenthe governement decided to put the "1955, 3 april" law about riots into effect ?

[Neorave]

one good example : try to imagine how it feels to walk with your girlfriend, suddenly a group of "people" come around you, stares at you, says "we are going to fuck french girls and kick french guys out from here!", or to walk back home, and have a group of people jumping on you and kicking you almost to death just because you were smiling and accidently you looked in their direction.
I'm not overacting (many people in here knows that I'm not a kind of "stupid" person) : it happened to me, it also happened to many people where I live and the other members in here from France can confirm.

Well, at least it's better than what MSNBC said:

The violence started Oct. 27 among youths in a northeastern Paris suburb angry over the accidental deaths of two teenagers, but it has grown into a nationwide insurrection by suburban youths.

HOW THE FUCK AM I SUPPOSE TO KNOW HOW THIS THING WAS CAUSED? I mean, I can't make an opinion about that with this kind of shitty info.

In any case, here's a little something to lighten the mood:
http://frenchriotlol.ytmnd.com/

[htcdude]

There have been riots in France?? I really should watch the news or read the paper or something...

[browneyedgirl]

People who are living among the events I think would have a more objective&truthful view of what is actually taking place over there. USA journalism is tinged with propaganda&seldom tells the fullest scope of what is going on.
Thats mainly the reason I posted this topic---I knew I'd get the whole story, not some watered-down version spewed from the mainstream press.

[cliff]

People who are living among the events I think would have a more objective&truthful view of what is actually taking place over there.

Totally true.

I knew I'd get the whole story, not some watered-down version spewed from the mainstream press.

True.
And you can count on me to write the truth about those riots and about the situation in France. Not some bullshit that medias creates to make people happy.

I have heared so many things like "poor immigrant people living in suburbs . they have nothing. they are unemployed. They are not integrated into the society. Poor of them, they suffer from racism, we let them no chance. blabla". Bullshit. The governement really helps them, even too much.
I agree that we must "integrate" the immigrants to our society, but in return, they have to make this integration possible.
I don't call burning cars & school, shoting on policemen & on firemen (and on innocent people like you or I), working illegally, (and many other things like drugs or weapons traffic) the proofs that they really want to be integrated.

[MaFiaBoY]

But you can't deny that the government has a part of responsibility in all that and that Sarko's security policy is a total failure (just like all the governments before but at least Chevènement created good thing - that Sarko cancelled a few years later for pure ideological reasons)

[cliff]

But you can't deny that the government has a part of responsibility in all

Of course. the governement IS responsible for that.
it has been too kind, and it closed his eyes on many things for more than 20 years.

Sarko's security policy is a total failure (just like all the governments before but at least Chevènement created good thing - that Sarko cancelled a few years later for pure ideological reasons)

You mean the Police of proximity ?
I dunno if this was a good thing or not.
Like Sarkozy explained, he removed those policemen because he thinks that a policeman is not a teacher or a sport trainer. And he is totally right on that.

Do you know why those people are against the politic of Sarkozy ?
This is simply because the governement has been too kind with those people living in suburbans. But when the bang of 2002 happened (remember, it is when the National Front came to the second roll of the election), the governement suddenly realized that the insecurity was a major problems in our country, this is why Sarkozy was chosen, to make the insecurity decreased. I dunno if this insecurity decreased for real (I would personally tend to think the opposite).
Anyway, the reason why those people are angry and want Sarkozy to retire, is simply because they had much more privileges in the past, before some of Sarkozy's decisions. One ex : the Employement office (ANPE) and the office in charge of the unemployed Benefit (ASSEDIC). In the past, they used to give benefit to unemployed people really easily. There were absolutely no control on unemployed people (except that stupid and useless visit every 6 months to an ANPE agency), which is not the case in many other countries like UK. Nowadays, there are more controls, which, you can guess, don't make those suburban unemployed happy. That's just one example among many others, but yes, that's why Sarkozy isn't appreciated from those people living in suburbs.
Remember the affair of the muslim veils at school. it's the same thing. The more you give to people, the more they want to keep.

[Jester]

If people have a legitimate beef, it should be heard. Demonstrations are fine too as long as they don't get violent. If they do get violent, then it's time for the iron fist. You can't appease this sort of behavior because if you capitulate, or show signs of weakness, other people will see this as a way to get what they want. It's the same thing in dealing with terrorists. I believe in the rule of law. The French Government could have easily put this thing down from the jump if they weren't so concerned with being politically correct. Political correctness isn't just a French problem, it's a problem everywhere it exists. And it was started, I believe, to stymie any sort of intelligent debate on hot button issues.

My views on poverty are like this. I do feel bad for those who have little. However, the poor people I really feel sorry for are those in Africa, South America, and Asia. People who sleep on dirt floors along with snakes and insects. People who live in unindustrialized nations, and are subject to the whims of whatever brutal regime holds power that particular month or year. Thats called being "without hope". People who live with the constant threat of AIDS. Those are the people I feel sorriest for.

Poor people who live in semi-socialist nations like those in Europe, and even the U.S. need to realize that their situation could be far worse. Above all, there are jobs and opportunities for those who put their energies and resources into actually finding one, rather than blaming this race, that race, these people, those people, or the government.

As far as assimilation is concerned. That burden is on the immigrant coming into the country, not the other way around. We have that same problem here in the States. Why, because we have made it too easy for people not too. If I ever decide to move to a different country, you can bet that I will do my level best to learn their language, even before I move there if possible. To not do so is flat out ignorant and lazy.

I also know that if you keep giving people hand-outs, eventually whatever you give them won't be enough. This is how you teach people to be lazy and totally dependant on the government. All governments should provide a safety net for their citizens, but they need to do so with the goal being to get that person on their feet again. A "hand-up" is good, "hand-outs" help lead to what we see here in France, and what have seen in other nations including the one I live in.


Jesse

[cliff]

If they do get violent, then it's time for the iron fist. You can't appease this sort of behavior because if you capitulate, or show signs of weakness, other people will see this as a way to get what they want.

Totally right.

However, the poor people I really feel sorry for are those in Africa, South America, and Asia. People who sleep on dirt floors along with snakes and insects. People who live in unindustrialized nations, and are subject to the whims of whatever brutal regime holds power that particular month or year. Thats called being "without hope". People who live with the constant threat of AIDS. Those are the people I feel sorriest for.

indeed. like you said, it's a thousand time better to be a poor in those countries than a poor in a poor country like Africa. The government still helps poor people in Europe. They get subventions, benefit, they can eat and have a flat and so on. In Africa, except the humanitarian help which never comes, their only help is their self-survival. Countries in war, full of diseases, people eating rats, living in the street, parents sending their own children to prostitute to get money. This is fucking sad! Of course I feel sorry for poor people living in "rich" countries, but they still have the chance to live there and survive. Everyday, there are tons of people, from Africa, trying to pass through Mediteranean, and dreaming about a better life, with laws, with rights, with supermarkets, and so on.
But those fucking people in french suborns, they complain all the time, burn cars and shot on policemen!

Above all, there are jobs and opportunities for those who put their energies and resources into actually finding one, rather than blaming this race, that race, these people, those people, or the government.

Right. I don't think it's difficult at all to find a job here. You can still work in McDonald or supermarkets. Not the best jobs ever, but usually, if you need at all price a job, you are ready to take everything, as long as it gives you enough money.

If I ever decide to move to a different country, you can bet that I will do my level best to learn their language, even before I move there if possible. To not do so is flat out ignorant and lazy.

Right. That's (at least should be) a part of the integration plan.
If you plan to move somewhere, you at least try to learn the language.
But I guess the least thing that those people can do, is to respect others.
be grateful to the country that they have accepted them, that they are helping them and so on. Not telling "fucking government. fucking institution. fucking policemen. fucking teachers. fucking livers".

Those "people" in France say that they are not integrated and so on. Wrong. I remember when my dad (he is italian) moved to France when he was 25, he learned the language, he worked and worked really hard, and has always been grateful to France and to french people, even if the situation was far from easy. When the mother of my mother (also italian) moved to France when she was a child, the other children were throwing rocks on her, treating her of "stupid macaroni", and she had to walk head down and accept that. The new immigrants should be glad that they don't have to stand the same treatments anymore. No no, instead of that, THEY are the ones throwing rocks on policemen and on french people (when it's not to burn them inside buses).

I have thought of it. Actually, the conflict in France has nothing to do with economy. Those "people" got fed up only because Sarkozy used 2 words : "we're going to clean the guettos with kärcher" (it's a strong product used to clean pavements) and "there will be no place for the rabble ("racaille")". With that, Sarkozy talked about the bad people in those guettos, not about ALL of them. And those people, they took it as a racism attack. Ah. Velcome to France. You can't even say anything in here because then, it will sound racist! One ex : one group of "people" come to you and say "fuck your mother" (it happens a lot in here). If you say "no. fuck YOUR mother", they will start to say "what ? my mother ? she's an arab. You mean you fuck arabs ? You fuckin racist, fucking white! " and they hit you (when they don't kill you). Concrete proof ? check the MafiaBoy's (who is, i recall, half muslim) personal attacks to me, just because I gave a straight opinion of the situation. because I didn't feel sorry for those people committing the riots, he quickly categorized me as a "racist".

This conflict is more about religion/racial. The affair about the muslim veils at school was a strike.

The medias says that the riot violences has decreased. So what ?
if those riots stop in one week, no one will talk about insecurity anymore (except if the politicians use it for their election program, to be elected).
The violences (people getting murdered, rubbered...), there are existing in here since many years. I'd be curious to know what the politicians plan to do, the next time that an old woman will be mugged for 100€ and will die because of her injuries ?

[Shaolin Phantom]

(to sum up : the same kind of riots happened in Algeria 50 years ago - in Algeria there were about half Algerian, half French livers - the Algerian decided that the country belongs to them, so they kicked the French out from there.). Sounds like the history repeat.

They thought Algeria belonged to the Algerians.. how silly of them What could have made them think such a foolish thing; it's not even like the name "Algeria" gives any hint it's a country that should MAYBE be controlled by Algerians.

France is just paying the price of their old broken empire now. You wanna go outside of your own country to invade and control some other places, this is what happens years later. France had their fun as an imperialist power, now comes the bill. Too bad nobody who's living now had anything to do with it.. but that's how the world works. Here in the USA, our children's children will have to pay for all the shit GW Bush is doing today.

Also seems to me there's a lot of crypto-racist talk here. I don't like it.

[MaFiaBoY]

Concrete proof ? check the MafiaBoy's (who is, i recall, half muslim) personal attacks to me, just because I gave a straight opinion of the situation. because I didn't feel sorry for those people committing the riots, he quickly categorized me as a "racist".

Hey, hey, I told this was because I misunderstood what you said and I apologized, what do you want more ?

[Heiserich]

Poor people who live in semi-socialist nations like those in Europe, and even the U.S. need to realize that their situation could be far worse. Above all, there are jobs and opportunities for those who put their energies and resources into actually finding one, rather than blaming this race, that race, these people, those people, or the government.

Somehow it sounds quite funny to me, that you call European nations "semi-socialist":lol: Must be a matter of perspective. Actually, what we got here is capitalism with a scanty social net. I'd call the US "Turbo-Capitalism" instead. And I'm afraid, we're moving right into that direction.

As far as assimilation is concerned. That burden is on the immigrant coming into the country, not the other way around. We have that same problem here in the States. Why, because we have made it too easy for people not too. If I ever decide to move to a different country, you can bet that I will do my level best to learn their language, even before I move there if possible. To not do so is flat out ignorant and lazy.

I don't agree. I think it's the business of both sides. The immigrant has to be willing to be integrated and, yes, he has to strive for that. But the society of the host-nation also has the responsibility to help and to show him, that he's welcome. I think, that there have been made much mistakes. From both sides.

I also know that if you keep giving people hand-outs, eventually whatever you give them won't be enough. This is how you teach people to be lazy and totally dependant on the government. All governments should provide a safety net for their citizens, but they need to do so with the goal being to get that person on their feet again. A "hand-up" is good, "hand-outs" help lead to what we see here in France, and what have seen in other nations including the one I live in.

...but there actually are not enough jobs. If there's not enough jobs, it will be quite frustrating for an unemployed person to hear that he just doesn't want to find one. Here in Duisburg f.i. we have about 40.000 unemploeyd persons and 1.500 open jobs. They can't all find a job, even if they try.

However, as I already said, all this is not an excuse for that what happens in France now. People who commit crimes like that have to be punished. But that is just a solution for the very moment. People who grow up without perspective tend to turn violent and criminal, that's a fact. And that has to be changed in sustained efforts.

[Heiserich]

People who are living among the events I think would have a more objective&truthful view of what is actually taking place over there. USA journalism is tinged with propaganda&seldom tells the fullest scope of what is going on.
Thats mainly the reason I posted this topic---I knew I'd get the whole story, not some watered-down version spewed from the mainstream press.

Well... there are a lot of alternative information-services on the web. To the topic of the riots, check this for example:

http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=30904

[cliff]

They thought Algeria belonged to the Algerians.. how silly of them What could have made them think such a foolish thing; it's not even like the name "Algeria" gives any hint it's a country that should MAYBE be controlled by Algerians.

Well. I agree that many things were not fair in Algeria at that time, that french people had more rights and so on. Still, was it a reason to say "Algeria is for Algeria. You french people, have nothing to do here, go back to your country, or we'll kill you!". Do you imagine if France would do exactly the same thing ? "just because you are not french, go back to where you belong ?". That would be totally chaotic, and stupid, and would sound exactly like the Third Reich (ever heard of that ?).

France is just paying the price of their old broken empire now. You wanna go outside of your own country to invade and control some other places, this is what happens years later. France had their fun as an imperialist power, now comes the bill.

That was a immature throught.
So in your opinion, just because German people had tortured many innocent people, in many different countries, during the second war, because Hitler wanted to conquire the whole europe (="imperialist power", like you wrote) it would give an excuse to all those countries to strike back, and tortured german people, just to get revenge ? Would you tell to those german people "you had fun as an imperialist power with Hitler, now comes the bill" ?

Here in the USA, our children's children will have to pay for all the shit GW Bush is doing today.

I agree GW Bush is shitting around. So what ? There is always a future. New president will come. And better ones. If you think of your children's children's future, you try to make it the best possible. Not just say "everything's done. There is no turning back. everything is the fault of that president we had 40 years ago".

@Mafiaboy : I understood that you made a misunderstanding and I accepted your apologize. I simply wanted to bring back this first "impression" you had of me, because many people do that, they go to conclusions really quickly. One ex : Tolkki wrote a song about Hitler , and then, people said "Tolkki is racist !". Don't take it as a direct attack toward you, but like an example.

[Shaolin Phantom]

Well. I agree that many things were not fair in Algeria at that time, that french people had more rights and so on. Still, was it a reason to say "Algeria is for Algeria. You french people, have nothing to do here, go back to your country, or we'll kill you!". Do you imagine if France would do exactly the same thing ? "just because you are not french, go back to where you belong ?". That would be totally chaotic, and stupid, and would sound exactly like the Third Reich (ever heard of that ?).

Come on, nothing ever was as bad as the Third Reich, you're just trying to confuse the issues.

That was a immature throught.
So in your opinion, just because German people had tortured many innocent people, in many different countries, during the second war, because Hitler wanted to conquire the whole europe (="imperialist power", like you wrote) it would give an excuse to all those countries to strike back, and tortured german people, just to get revenge ? Would you tell to those german people "you had fun as an imperialist power with Hitler, now comes the bill" ?

No not at all, you are putting words in my mouth.

For some reasons the French (over the past hundred years) though it was a good idea to have a heavy influence in Algeria.

What's happening now is part of the price for that.

It should not be a difficult thought to understand.

Not just say "everything's done. There is no turning back. everything is the fault of that president we had 40 years ago".

You're trying to put words in my mouth I never said.

The fact remains that the citizens of a country are often held responsible for what their government does in their name. Sometimes hundreds of years later. This does not bode well for the USA because it seems nobody here is thinking much about what the US government is doing in our name...

[neonlightchild]

i think Zinedine Zidane is their saviour

hehe, not really, (maybe thierry henry) but i wish for France all this turmoil to end soon

[Jester]

I did not intend "semi-socialist" as an insult to European nations, or the U.S. . Most European nations, and the U.S, have policies that redistribute wealth. Welfare programs. I have European friends who complain about high taxes in their countries, and I complain about high taxes here in the States. This is what I mean by "semi-socialism". Not completely socialist, but do sponsor some socialist ideals and programs. No insult intended.


Jesse

[browneyedgirl]

i think Zinedine Zidane is their saviour

hehe, not really, (maybe thierry henry) but i wish for France all this turmoil to end soon

Well, I just watched a portion of the noon news and things are finally settling down a bit. The curfew seems to be working. So, thats the first step!
After these riots are over, the government needs to do some serious thinking about how to handle these disgruntled people. Unhappy people can make life a Hell for everyone&saying, "they have to make their own way, its not our fault their lives are screwed up," is NOT going to wash. Its just not enough! Apparently the help they got up to that point was not working&when people are backed against the wall they will fight back. I know that sounds uncivilized&we do not want to hear such things, but, sorry, thats how down-trodden people feel in reality. We have to just be thankful we are not among their number&try to elect people who will help people like this help themselves. And make it clear they have to have an incentive from us&government to make it in this world. Respect is earned? Oh yeah--thats real motivation to people who are looked down upon just for being themselves, no matter what!

[Jester]

I need someone from France to prove this right or wrong. I have heard that the majority of these people have been given public housing, courtesy of the French taxpayer. Is this true or untrue? This is what I have heard here, but I don't know for a fact.

Anyhow, at what point do we become accountable for our own actions? So we just keep throwing money at people without making them accountable. This is how we make people dependant on the government. In the wild, a lioness will feed her cubs for only a certain period of time before she refuses to do so any longer and forces them to do for themselves. She teaches them to survive. Those who refuse to become independant will wither and die. This is also the way of the world. A government needs to have a safety net for those who have fallen on hard times, however that same government has a duty to it's taxpaying citizens not to let this become a "lifestyle" for those not inclined or motivated to find work. People that perpetually suck at the bosom of a charitable government are a drain on that society. The government should provide a hand up to get people on their feet, not hand outs to keep them on their knees. So a particular political party can keep part of it's voting base intact by making hollow promises.

I bust my ass at work every week, not because I enjoy it, because I have to. I don't like going to work to support those who don't. Thats not fair to me. I make $33,000 a year, so I am by no means a rich man. Sometimes I have more bills than money, but I don't complain. I think of the poor in countries like Africa, Asia, and South America. People who live in countries with governments that do nothing for their people. I thank God for what I do have, and could care less if one of my friends can afford to buy a brand new Mercedes Benz. I am happy for people who can do those things because they usually worked hard to get what they have. I solicit advice from them in the hopes that one day I might be able to do that too. But I do not complain, and I am grateful for what I have.

Lastly, I do not believe that the French look down upon these people for being themselves. From what I have learned, these people refuse to assimilate into French society, refusing to learn the native language. Should the rest of France change to accomodate these people?! Sounds eerily similar to what we have in this country. When you move to another country, you should keep your heritage and culture, but you have an obligation to that country to adapt to their ways. If you refuse to do that, don't blame society if you can't find a job. Also, if France truly has no jobs for these people than they need to stem the flow of immigration into their country.

Didn't mean to rant. This is what makes life interesting, different opinions and points of view.


Jesse

[htcdude]

Wow there's so much to read here......it's like marking essays at school!...except these won't be marked.....actually it'll give me something to do so i will mark them...if i can be bothered to read them.....*cough*

[Heiserich]

@ Jester:

Though I'm not from France, I guess the situation in Germany is quite similar. I don't believe, that you get to the heart of the problem by just looking at the bottom of society. The allocation of wealth and the distribution of chances both are very disparate and partly very unjust in our modern western societies. In the pisa-study (a comparative study about quality of and equality in european educational systems) one of the results were, that in Germany a kid from a rich and educated family has a fiths times higher chance of going to grammar school and making a-levels than a kid from working class, though both have the same IQ. The situation of kids from immigrants that have been born here are significantly worse than that of kids from german parents. About 60% of them leave the school without any certificate; the very huge part of that group don't get an apprenticeship and so many of them never have the chance to find a job.

On the other pole of society: Firms like Telekom and Deutsche Bank get record-accounts - and fire thousands of workers. There seems to be a widespread assumption, that our societies are nothing else than enrichment-events for guys that had the luck to be born in a good position. But that's not true. Societies of people are made for every member of it. Everybody must have the chance to what Jefferson called "The pursuit of happiness". If a huge part of people are excluded from the gains (and from all chances of contributing their part) of a society, the'll start a riot sooner or later. Chirac has written something like that in a book in 1995. Obviously he has not drawn the right conclusions from that.

BTW: I Agree about the last point in your post. I don't feel offended by different opinions and don't want to offend anyone.

[browneyedgirl]

Well, the riots are not front-page news anymore. So, I think that is a good sign. At least on the surface everything seems to have calmed down......for now.