WWIII -?

[NeonVomit]

Well, I didn't make that picture, and it's not meant to be funny.

Just look up casualty figures.

[miditek]

Well, I didn't make that picture, and it's not meant to be funny. Just look up casualty figures.

@NeonVomit : your sense of humour is bad. Moreover, if Hezbollah is still launching rockets, that's because they are not brave at all, hiding themselves among innocents families, using children and women as human shields and israeli army doesn't want to kill innocent people as islamists always do.

As previously stated, IDF has drones, GPS, and satellites- not to mention forward observers, to track where these rockets are coming from. They can hit a target within a few meteres. Do you think that the IDF is stupid (meaning you really think that they can't see the rockets being fired and where they are being fired from)? @MetalAngel is correct in his assessment that Hezbollah are cowards that use women and children as human shields.

Q. In Cannan (Qana), why were 60 women and children
killed? Why were there no men? Why did it take
Hezbollah over 7 hours to report this? Have you
not seen the IDF videos that were released that
showed katyusha launchers and AA artillery in the
Cannan housing projects?

Israel has provided ample warnings via leaflets, telephone calls, and other announcements warning civilians to leave. Why won't Hezbollah or the Lebanese army assist with this? Why is Hezbollah calling for an immediate cease-fire? (Because they are getting their asses kicked, and need time to regroup and reinforce).

While it may not be imminent- yet, hundreds of millions of people, quite possibly 2-3 billion will eventually be dead because of the world's irrational hatred of Israel and inexcusably crazy support of radical Islam. This will happen in our generation, and it is unavoidable. The West (as well as India) are also targets of radical Islam. It will take mushroom clouds before Eurocrats realize this.

On a related note- please don't blame Israel and the USA for all of the world's problems. The school in Beslan, Russia, as well as attacks in India and the Phillipines have nothing to do with Israel or the US, but everything to do with the jihadist mindset.

[NeonVomit]

Again, I am not trying to justify the whole militant extremist Islam thing, I think I've made that clear. Nor am I narrow-minded enough to blame all the world's problems on the USA or Israel, that's just dumb.

What I have a problem with is Israel bombing the hell out of civilians who have nothing to do with this conflict, and seemingly without any effect on Hizbollah. Of course Israel is saying they're beating them, just like Hizbollah is saying they're winning.

The fact remains, they're launching more rockets further into Israel than before. So what's going on?

Perhaps in Qana the reason that so many people were stuck there was because of the high number of casualties sustained on the roads by people trying to leave the designated 'danger zones'? Survivors said that's the main reason they didn't leave, out of fear of being attacked on their way out, which has happened many times so far.

And I fail to recollect Hizbollah saying anything about a ceasefire, this is the exact war those maniacs have been waiting for. Please show me a source for this claim. If they wanted a ceasefire they'd return the two captured soldiers, right? Have they?

While it may not be imminent- yet, hundreds of millions of people, quite possibly 2-3 billion will eventually be dead because of the world's irrational hatred of Israel and inexcusably crazy support of radical Islam. This will happen in our generation, and it is unavoidable. The West (as well as India) are also targets of radical Islam. It will take mushroom clouds before Eurocrats realize this.

Ok, that's just wildly-exaggerated fear-mongering conspiracy-theory stuff with no rational basis. 2-3 billion people dead? What? If China and India decide to have a go at each other all-out, we might get those sorts of casualty figures. Assuming a whole load of other nations get involved too. And I still cannot fathom how you believe Europe supports radical Islam, that simply makes no sense.

[NeonVomit]

And once again, I must stress this, of course Israel has the right to defend itself, just like every other sovereign nation on earth.

I think they're going the wrong way about it.

I would seriously, far more prefer a full-scale ground invasion of the entire south of Lebanon to clense the area of Hizbollah once and for all, rather than this campaign of air-strikes which is clearly ineffective and not nearly as accurate as the military would have one believe.

I served in the army. We had a saying, 1000 boots on the ground is immesurably more effective than 1000 bombs dropped.

My preferred solution: send the IDF ground forces in! Hunt down Hizbollah properly. They have the power to do it. Then when the international force arrives, begin to withdraw. This is not Iraq, this can work.

Edit: Seems like that's what they've decided to do. Finally!

http://news.yahoo.com/fc/World/Mideast_Conflict

[Shurik]

My preferred solution: send the IDF ground forces in! Hunt down Hizbollah properly. They have the power to do it. Then when the international force arrives, begin to withdraw

Actually, all the bombing that was done is to prepare the ground for ground invasion - destroy means of resupplying the forces (roads and bridges), destroy command posts, rocket launchers and so on ... Also, the civilian population doesn't seem to mind being exploited by Hizballa terrorists when enormous amounts of weapons and ammunition is hidden in many civilian houses. Also, Hizballa prevents civilians from leaving the southern Lebanon so that they can be their human shields (again, many civilians don't seem to mind).

Every fighting with guerilla forces is a very dangerous fighting, it rearly succeds and the guerilla will claim victory even if only one wounded fighter left ... Fighting regular army is much easier ...

[NordicStorm]

On a related note- please don't blame Israel and the USA for all of the world's problems.

Not to worry, most of us in this forum aren't good Christians like Mel Gibson

But seriously, my fear is this whole affair will backfire badly on Israel. I don't see how this strengthens their position at all. Hezbollah is seemingly more resilient than previously thought, and last year's glimpse of hope, when the Lebanese demonstrated in large numbers in protest of the Hariri assassination is but a distant memory at this point. Of course, everybody and their grandmother is speculating just how this all will play out. But short of someone cooking up a magic formula for overnight eradication of Islamism (Islamism as opposed to Islam), I don't see how there could be a net gain. Hezbollah might be seriously crippled, sure, but I fear accomplishing that would be so costly so as to ultimately prove to be a pyrrhic victory. I don't want to think about the potential amount of civilian casualties at that point; it's way too high as it is already.

As for it being or becoming World War III, I wouldn't worry about that. Fortunately there are still a decent amount of sane people in positions of power, many of them Europeans. I've seen people (not on this forum) being literally giddy over the possibility of a grand ole' conflict (so long as they don't have to go fight it themselves, of course). There's something very wrong with such people. Not terrorist-crazy, sure, but still. Not people I would invite to a party, although I suspect a bong hit would do them a world of good.

On a somewhat related note, it's always amusing how criticism of Israeli governmental policies are somehow the equivalent of being anti-Israeli or, better yet, anti-semitic, much like criticism of American foreign policy somehow makes one anti-American. Of course, when someone makes remarks to that effect it's almost always followed by tirades that, following that line of "thinking", can only be described as anti-European, anti-French, anti-Arab, anti-Muslim or anti-whatever (and I suppose it makes me a rabid anti-Finlandist, given my hardline stance against the Finnish government's policy on student grants, but I digress). I haven't seen it in here (fortunately), it's just a general observation, but it's nevertheless worth mentioning. It brings absolutely nothing to the discussion when people starts throwing around such epithets, particularly since most of the time they're not even remotely true.

[miditek]

And I fail to recollect Hizbollah saying anything about a ceasefire, this is the exact war those maniacs have been waiting for. Please show me a source for this claim. If they wanted a ceasefire they'd return the two captured soldiers, right? Have they?

The Washington Post (definitely a left-wing type of newspaper) just reported this. I'm sending the URL to you via private e-mail, so you'll probably want to check your hotmail.com account when you get a moment.

Ok, that's just wildly-exaggerated fear-mongering conspiracy-theory stuff with no rational basis. 2-3 billion people dead? What? If China and India decide to have a go at each other all-out, we might get those sorts of casualty figures. Assuming a whole load of other nations get involved too. And I still cannot fathom how you believe Europe supports radical Islam, that simply makes no sense.

If you choose to view it as fear-mongering, (from your own viewpoint), I'm cool with that. However, the way that I view it is based on deeply held religious convictions that I've had since I was a child.

Even if I were secular, I would still most likely have the same views, just minus the Second Coming and Resurrection parts. Ahmandinejad has repeatedly called for the destruction of Israel. Most people seem to think that he's off his rocker, but doesn't really want to destroy Israel.

Lots of people (Neville Chamberlain among the more notable ones) thought the same way about Hitler. Hitler outlined what he intended to do in Mein Kampf, and once he was in power, he set about to do just that. He did exterminate almost every Jew in Europe, didn't he? Churchill was often called a war monger and an alarmist too, at the time.

The main thing is, we not have lots of virtual "little Germanys" now, that also have sworn to destroy the Jews. I think that nuclear war between India and Pakistan is much more likely than with between India and China. It's widely known that Moscow and Beijing (as well as Islamabad) are also working with terror sponsoring states on nuclear technology.

Sooner or later, someone is going to get pissed off, and will launch a first strike. Most likely by terrorists, and the retaliatory strikes will kill hundreds of millions. I believe the USA will be hit, with, let's say, a few 0.6-1.0 kiloton devices, but I also believe that the response will be with thermonuclear (megaton) devices. Think Trident class submarines, of which we have many, each armed with Polaris class ICBM's with seven warheads each. Each warhead is a thousand times more powerful than a Hiroshima like 0.6 kiloton device.

I don't believe that it will be because of Lebanon, but will be by some fascist twerp like Ahmandinejad to think that he's summoning his Mahdi (the Shi'ite Muslim messiah) and Mohammed for the Muslim version of Armageddon. The Muslims even believe that Jesus (they regarded him as a prophet, not a Deity) returns with Muhammed, and that together they will destroy the Antichrist.

Then, Jesus tosses all non-Muslims (particularly Christians, since they considered him to be a Diety, rather than a prophet) and other infidels (such as the Jews) into Hell. The reason why I'd mentioned this is to illustrate what the Shi'ites believe, and that they are probably crazy enough to start the real Armageddon with absolutely no remorse.

You don't have to be a Christian, Jew, or Muslim, or really anything at all to realize that these people, much like their beloved Hitler, mean what they say, and always will follow through on their threats.

Ignoring them is much like trying to avoid the unavoidable. It's a "David and Goliath" type of fantasy that these people have. They don't give a rip about the MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) theory because Muhammed and Jesus are going to handle the aftermath for them.

[miditek]

Actually, all the bombing that was done is to prepare the ground for ground invasion - destroy means of resupplying the forces (roads and bridges), destroy command posts, rocket launchers and so on ...

That's classic military strategy. Artillery preparation is also used, in conjunction with air strikes, and it appears that IDF is doing it by the book, as far as I can tell. An entrenched enemy has a temporary advantage, but air and artillery strikes will always show the futility of fixed defenses. Ground troops then go in to finish the job.

Also, the civilian population doesn't seem to mind being exploited by Hizballa terrorists when enormous amounts of weapons and ammunition is hidden in many civilian houses. Also, Hizballa prevents civilians from leaving the southern Lebanon so that they can be their human shields (again, many civilians don't seem to mind).

The Fourth Geneva Convention (which the UN and the New York Times seem to have conveniently forgotten),
stipulates that a civilian area ceases to become a civilian area once weapons and combatants are brought in. I am certain that Russia would cite that article in defense of raising Grozny to the ground, and even blasting the rubble that was left to bits- many times over.

Every fighting with guerilla forces is a very dangerous fighting, it rearly succeds and the guerilla will claim victory even if only one wounded fighter left ... Fighting regular army is much easier ...

Iran and Syria are well aware of this, as their armies would be destroyed if caught out in the open. If Hezbollah is not annihilated, it will continue to be a battle of attrition. Hezbollah would love for this to become a Stalingrad-like scenario, but the IDF is unlikely to fall for that type of trap.

Guerilla warfare and fixed defenses are difficult, but not insurmountable problems.

[miditek]

On a related note- please don't blame Israel and the USA for all of the world's problems.

Not to worry, most of us in this forum aren't good Christians like Mel Gibson

Poor Mel, this will probably be a two to three year hangover for him.

But seriously, my fear is this whole affair will backfire badly on Israel. I don't see how this strengthens their position at all. Hezbollah is seemingly more resilient than previously thought, and last year's glimpse of hope, when the Lebanese demonstrated in large numbers in protest of the Hariri assassination is but a distant memory at this point.

I believe that the bulk of most governments are hostile to Israel- they are not winning any popularity contests, but that is not their plan.

As for it being or becoming World War III, I wouldn't worry about that. Fortunately there are still a decent amount of sane people in positions of power, many of them Europeans. I've seen people (not on this forum) being literally giddy over the possibility of a grand ole' conflict (so long as they don't have to go fight it themselves, of course). There's something very wrong with such people.

As I posted just a little while ago, I was raised to believe that Armageddon will happen. The Muslims also believe that it will happen as well.

I don't think that it will happen immediately, i.e., in Lebanon or due to Lebanon. But I do believe that this is setting the stage, so to speak. But for some very specific reasons, I do believe that it will come.

Not terrorist-crazy, sure, but still. Not people I would invite to a party, although I suspect a bong hit would do them a world of good.

lol: lol: lol:

Too funny, and RLMFAO! Perhaps the IDF crop duster airplanes that have been spraying the firefighting chemicals could do a few extra sorties over Hezbollah territory and spray them with some Red Lebanese hashish smoke, as well as some laughing gas from the dentist's office.

On a somewhat related note, it's always amusing how criticism of Israeli governmental policies are somehow the equivalent of being anti-Israeli or, better yet, anti-semitic, much like criticism of American foreign policy somehow makes one anti-American. Of course, when someone makes remarks to that effect it's almost always followed by tirades that, following that line of "thinking", can only be described as anti-European, anti-French, anti-Arab, anti-Muslim or anti-whatever (and I suppose it makes me a rabid anti-Finlandist, given my hardline stance against the Finnish government's policy on student grants, but I digress). I haven't seen it in here (fortunately), it's just a general observation, but it's nevertheless worth mentioning. It brings absolutely nothing to the discussion when people starts throwing around such epithets, particularly since most of the time they're not even remotely true.

Well, when we see "Death to America" and "Death to Israel", and "Death to UK", and "Death to Denmark", and "Europe Your Are Next" posters throughout the Muslim world (as well as protests in the West), one does have to wonder? American, Israeli, and other flags and politial effigies burned daily.

Terror attacks worldwide, with increasing frequency and ferocity. Daily beheading and bombings, and more on the way. The EU still has yet to label Hezbollah a terrorist organization. Also, on 8/1/2006 the French foreign minister Philippe Douste-Blazy speaking to a group in Beirut said this about Iran:

"a great country, a great people and a great civilization which is respected and which plays a stabilizing role in the region."

What was that all about? You cannot negotiate with people like that. There is a lot more going on behind the scenes that most folks could possibly imagine. Lebanon is a smoke screen for other, much more horrible things to come.

[NeonVomit]

And I fail to recollect Hizbollah saying anything about a ceasefire, this is the exact war those maniacs have been waiting for. Please show me a source for this claim. If they wanted a ceasefire they'd return the two captured soldiers, right? Have they?

The Washington Post (definitely a left-wing type of newspaper) just reported this. I'm sending the URL to you via private e-mail, so you'll probably want to check your hotmail.com account when you get a moment.

Ok, that's just wildly-exaggerated fear-mongering conspiracy-theory stuff with no rational basis. 2-3 billion people dead? What? If China and India decide to have a go at each other all-out, we might get those sorts of casualty figures. Assuming a whole load of other nations get involved too. And I still cannot fathom how you believe Europe supports radical Islam, that simply makes no sense.

If you choose to view it as fear-mongering, (from your own viewpoint), I'm cool with that. However, the way that I view it is based on deeply held religious convictions that I've had since I was a child.

The moment you bring religious conviction into it, any arguments are immediately null and void. The very people you fear so much carry their actions out on exactly the same basis.

For further proof of the blinding effect of religion, see Creationism.

Even if I were secular, I would still most likely have the same views, just minus the Second Coming and Resurrection parts. Ahmandinejad has repeatedly called for the destruction of Israel. Most people seem to think that he's off his rocker, but doesn't really want to destroy Israel.

Lots of people (Neville Chamberlain among the more notable ones) thought the same way about Hitler. Hitler outlined what he intended to do in Mein Kampf, and once he was in power, he set about to do just that. He did exterminate almost every Jew in Europe, didn't he? Churchill was often called a war monger and an alarmist too, at the time.

The main thing is, we not have lots of virtual "little Germanys" now, that also have sworn to destroy the Jews. I think that nuclear war between India and Pakistan is much more likely than with between India and China. It's widely known that Moscow and Beijing (as well as Islamabad) are also working with terror sponsoring states on nuclear technology.

Sources. Give me sources. It's no good saying things like that if you are unable to back them up. Moscow has enough trouble of its own with Islamic extremism (see Chechnya, Beslan, Moscow Theatre). China also probably has issues with them, although China tends to keep unrest within its borders hushed up.

Hitler was at the helm of one of the most powerful countries in Europe, which had already caused WWI. Hardly the same as the highly fragmented and internally-devided Muslim extremists. Even Al Qaeda are not as uniform as the media would have one believe.

Sooner or later, someone is going to get pissed off, and will launch a first strike. Most likely by terrorists, and the retaliatory strikes will kill hundreds of millions. I believe the USA will be hit, with, let's say, a few 0.6-1.0 kiloton devices, but I also believe that the response will be with thermonuclear (megaton) devices. Think Trident class submarines, of which we have many, each armed with Polaris class ICBM's with seven warheads each. Each warhead is a thousand times more powerful than a Hiroshima like 0.6 kiloton device.

Even the current US administration does not believe that Iran has the capability to cause too much damage. In fact, still think they're quite a few years away yet from a single nuclear device. And then how about delivery? And anyway, as soon as they strike, Israel will immediately strike back in kind, with far greater force. Iran using nuclear weapons would be suicidal, I don't think they're THAT dumb.

I don't believe that it will be because of Lebanon, but will be by some fascist twerp like Ahmandinejad to think that he's summoning his Mahdi (the Shi'ite Muslim messiah) and Mohammed for the Muslim version of Armageddon. The Muslims even believe that Jesus (they regarded him as a prophet, not a Deity) returns with Muhammed, and that together they will destroy the Antichrist.

Then, Jesus tosses all non-Muslims (particularly Christians, since they considered him to be a Diety, rather than a prophet) and other infidels (such as the Jews) into Hell. The reason why I'd mentioned this is to illustrate what the Shi'ites believe, and that they are probably crazy enough to start the real Armageddon with absolutely no remorse.

You don't have to be a Christian, Jew, or Muslim, or really anything at all to realize that these people, much like their beloved Hitler, mean what they say, and always will follow through on their threats.

Ignoring them is much like trying to avoid the unavoidable. It's a "David and Goliath" type of fantasy that these people have. They don't give a rip about the MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) theory because Muhammed and Jesus are going to handle the aftermath for them.

I doubt it will carry that far. Again, they do not have the power to pull such a thing off. Of course, preventing them from obtaining such power is important.

Personally, I fear North Korea far more.

[Shurik]

Also, on 8/1/2006 the French foreign minister Philippe Douste-Blazy speaking to a group in Beirut said this about Iran:

"a great country, a great people and a great civilization which is respected and which plays a stabilizing role in the region."

He probably smokes the same stuff iranian president is smoking ...

Anyway, french foreign minister said that Iran is not a stabilizing froce after iranian president said yesterday that the real solution to the Middle East problems is destroying the Zionist regime ... Concidering that it's probably the hundrendth time he said it, I don't know what's wrong with french foreign minister ...

Moscow has enough trouble of its own with Islamic extremism (see Chechnya, Beslan, Moscow Theatre).

Russian position in the conflict is a whole different story ... Russians still think in the terms of cold war and it's their main problem. Also, having an ex-KGB officer as a president doesn't help much in leaving the cold war bullshit behind ...

Hitler was at the helm of one of the most powerful countries in Europe, which had already caused WWI.

In 1933 Germany was poor and humbled by Versaille's agreements. The reason germans voted Hitler was his promises to make Germany great again. Iran has a pretty strong army, good weapons (partially bought from Russia and other ex-Soviet states) and a nuclear plant with an ability to do a nuke research ... Also, the country is ruled by religious freaks that are quite capable to do what they threaten to do, given the opportunity.

Iran using nuclear weapons would be suicidal, I don't think they're THAT dumb.

You have to understand that these people don't afraid to die, given the right cause (killing infidels in a process is welcomed). The bigger the religious brainwashing, the smaller is their fear of death ... You can see that in fighting in Lebanon and Gaza - Hizballa don't care about their casualties, their target is to kill as many Israeli soldiers and civilians as they can. They don't care how much people they lose - 10 or 1000, it is not a variable in their equasions ... I only hope that Iranian people are not as dumb as their leaders, after all - there were diplomatic relationships between Iran and Israel befre the Islamic revolution in 1979 ... Those people don't think like we do.

[miditek]

The moment you bring religious conviction into it, any arguments are immediately null and void. The very people you fear so much carry their actions out on exactly the same basis.

My religious convictions have very little to do with the reality of the current situation in the Middle East. Try telling the same thing to Ahmandinejad or any of the mullahs.

Sources. Give me sources. It's no good saying things like that if you are unable to back them up. Moscow has enough trouble of its own with Islamic extremism (see Chechnya, Beslan, Moscow Theatre). China also probably has issues with them, although China tends to keep unrest within its borders hushed up.

Check your hotmail account again later today. I'll sent you a link to globalsecurity dot org Look in the WMD section under Iran for starters. Does anyone deny that Russia has hundreds, if not thousands, of nuclear technicians at the Bushrer facility? That has been widely reported, but nevertheless, I'll be glad to send plenty of links to you.

Hitler was at the helm of one of the most powerful countries in Europe, which had already caused WWI. Hardly the same as the highly fragmented and internally-devided Muslim extremists. Even Al Qaeda are not as uniform as the media would have one believe.

The sad thing is, Germany was beaten and prostrate after WWI, and then the League of Nations watched as Hitler violated one item of Versailles right after the other. Surely you learned that even in primary school. WWII never have needed to happen, if the West had simply enforced Versailles with even the most limited of military actions. Germany was still very weak in 1935 and in 1936.

Even the current US administration does not believe that Iran has the capability to cause too much damage. In fact, still think they're quite a few years away yet from a single nuclear device. And then how about delivery? And anyway, as soon as they strike, Israel will immediately strike back in kind, with far greater force. Iran using nuclear weapons would be suicidal, I don't think they're THAT dumb.

The New York Times may be reporting that, but I seriously doubt that the administration believes that. Even the Security Council at the UN is worried about the current situation, and their demands for Iran to come clean- which of course, they won't.

The initial nuclear strikes that I suspect will happen- as I've stated many times before, won't be from an ICBM, but from IND's that will be placed inside the US, and then detonated. If you don't understand the jihadist mindset, as both Shurik as well as myself have described, then it is difficult to see the danger. Death to them is martyrdom, and a sure ticket to Heaven. As long as the infidels are destroyed, then to them, everything will be A-ok.

I doubt it will carry that far. Again, they do not have the power to pull such a thing off. Of course, preventing them from obtaining such power is important. Personally, I fear North Korea far more.

Pakistan has nuclear weapons now, the first Muslim state to do so. Why would Iran not follow, if they have not already? Russia is helping them- for a fee of course, and Tehran loves to pay in cash.

My reasoning behind my distrust of European diplomacy success rates is simple; 50-60 million dead due to Nazism and Fascism, 100 million or more dead due to Communism. Perpetual war in the Middle East, and large pockets of Muslims causing trouble throughout Europe, not to mention Asia and North America. The soil of the entire continent is soaked in blood, and you think they have the solution for 1+ billion Muslims whose goal in life if the elimination of Israel and the West?





Everyone is entitled to their opinion, NV.

[NordicStorm]

I believe that the bulk of most governments are hostile to Israel- they are not winning any popularity contests, but that is not their plan.

Well, feel free to believe what you will. I subscribe to one of the larger Finnish newspapers, and I'm always stricken by how only bad news about my culturally distinct home region ends up being reported. Of course, it might just be my own predisposition.
I would be very interested in knowing what the plan is, though, as I don't see how this ultimately will benefit Israel, or indeed anyone. Well, stock holders in weapons manufacturers I suppose, they must be really happy right now!

As I posted just a little while ago, I was raised to believe that Armageddon will happen. The Muslims also believe that it will happen as well.

I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about people who genuinely want and look forward to a grand conflict like it's a videogame or a summer blockbuster. To them it's not even a holy war fueled by some peculiar interpretation of religious texts, it's just fun! Warmongers, if you will. Sometimes I'm not even sure if there's some sort of objective behind this war of theirs, it seems to be war for war's sake. I would advise such people to get back to their Playstations, but I fear that's where they picked up their bloodlust in the first place.

I don't think that it will happen immediately, i.e., in Lebanon or due to Lebanon. But I do believe that this is setting the stage, so to speak. But for some very specific reasons, I do believe that it will come.

Well, you're certainly entitled to your beliefs, and humankind will certainly, at some point, end. I just don't think fatalism is a good basis for sound government policy decisions.

Well, when we see "Death to America" and "Death to Israel", and "Death to UK", and "Death to Denmark", and "Europe Your Are Next" posters throughout the Muslim world (as well as protests in the West), one does have to wonder? American, Israeli, and other flags and politial effigies burned daily.

Yeah, my point exactly! When reasonable people with legitimate criticism gets lumped in with the "Death to America"-crowd, simply because one disagrees with them, that's a very bad sign indeed. People have done a lot of very bad things in the cloak of überpatriotism; definitely ground one should thread carefully on!

Terror attacks worldwide, with increasing frequency and ferocity. Daily beheading and bombings, and more on the way.

Well, so much for winning the war on terror then, eh?

The EU still has yet to label Hezbollah a terrorist organization.

I dunno, perhaps trying to encourage the non-militant faction to become more influental? Well, that's moot now though, as there's probably nothing left of the non-militant faction. Probably just as well; it's easier if they're all classified as terrorists.

Also, on 8/1/2006 the French foreign minister Philippe Douste-Blazy speaking to a group in Beirut said this about Iran:

"a great country, a great people and a great civilization which is respected and which plays a stabilizing role in the region."

What was that all about? You cannot negotiate with people like that. There is a lot more going on behind the scenes that most folks could possibly imagine. Lebanon is a smoke screen for other, much more horrible things to come.

Well, Douste-Blazy, Sarkozy, de Villepin and Chirac are incompetent fools, and if there's a God Sarkozy will go down in flames in next year's election, but I digress.

For the record, that statement of mine above is what some people would call an "anti-French" statement, but which in reality is a critique of the French government. Just for future reference, I know there's a lot of people who're confused by the notion that critiquing the actions of a government is in no way an indication of some sort of deep held hatred for the nation and its people. No, if I were to make an anti-French statement, it would go more like this: "The French are cheeze-eating surrender monkeys!" And even then, chances are I was making some silly joke or just quoting the Simpsons.
Not saying that's something going on in here, but it has in the past and it's just plain annoying and not particularly constructive at all. A pet-peeve of mine, really.

All that said, Douste-Blazy's statement above is what we in the biz generally refer to as "sucking up." I have no idea if it will do any good, but hey, the French practically invented diplomacy, if they can't fix this, no one can!


On a more general note, and perhaps somewhat irrelevant to the discussion at hand, I don't understand why people seeking peace through peaceful means are to be ridiculed and made fun of, called names even, as if avoiding war was somehow something cowardly and not worth striving for. As if people seeking peace are pot smoking hippies too naïve and without enough knowledge of the world around them to make the right decisions.
I don't understand why people would actively look for war, as if war was an act of nobility rather than one of desperate neccessity. I would except that from Jihadists, sure, but I wouldn't except it from people who are supposedly more level-headed, particularly not from people with at least a rudimentary appreciation of all the lives that have been lost to the ravages of war. I don't get it. If people really are that prone to savage thuggery, then clearly mankind is lost, and we should get started on that World War III pronto and end our miserable existance once and for all.

Oh, also, one thing rather pertinent to the current discussion. "1+ billion Muslims whose goal in life if the elimination of Israel and the West" is a rather unfortunate formulation, I feel. It's strikes me as a bit bigoted, like saying all Catholics are paedophiles or all Evangelicals kill abortion doctors on their spare time. I'd urge you to consider revising that statement.

[NordicStorm]

Well, of course, if one has already decided there should be a WWIII, that's probably what one gets. And if that is the case, we've already lost. You can't eradicate terrorism by dropping bombs on them and hoping to God you got them all, that just won't work.
I'm not in favour of appeasement by any means, but bombs alone cannot win. You can kill people, but you can't kill ideals, however twisted they may be.

Afghanistan really is a good example; overthrowing the Taliban, having a few elections and hoping for the best hasn't worked very well so far, with very disturbing reports of Taliban resurgence and warlords still ruling large parts of the country (and Bin Ladin still at large, although from what I gather his influence may be somewhat limited at this point). It would have taken a post-war effort akin to the ones in Germany or Japan to get the country in the right direction. That's the essential problem with Iraq as well, the planning for the postwar occupation was lacking (to say the least), and here we are three years and umpteen elections later on the brink of a potentially very bloody civil war. In fact, more squeamish people are already calling it a civil war. Oh, and what a classy guy Prime Minister al-Maliki is! He and Mel Gibson must go to the same gym.
So, what I'm essentially saying is, if those guys are gonna work their magic here as well, then clearly we're all fucked! I'll even take my chances with the French (and lord knows they know a thing or two about fucking about in Africa and Asia)!
And given those two success stories, ridiculing people for looking for alternative solutions seem...well, peculiar.

Oh, and not to mention, Israel is one of the most well armed nations in the world with enormously sophisticated weaponry, and after decades of combating terrorism they don't seem to be any closer to prevailing, so let's not kid ourselves about a war to end all wars being some sort of solution. It's not.

[stratoplayer]

There can be no war to end all wars, it will simply not happen, and you kid yourself if you believe so, but there can be peace, either through cooperation or through strength.[/i]

[MetalAngel]

What I have a problem with is Israel bombing the hell out of civilians who have nothing to do with this conflict, and seemingly without any effect on Hizbollah.

Innocent people weren't so innocent in Cana bombing. They've protected, and that was proven by the medias, the militants of Hezbollah in their building and also they've hidden their weapons and those weapons exploded into the building and the building hasn't been stroke by the israeli army...

Israël never strikes without a good reason for that.

[Heiserich]

Innocent people weren't so innocent in Cana bombing. They've protected, and that was proven by the medias, the militants of Hezbollah in their building and also they've hidden their weapons and those weapons exploded into the building and the building hasn't been stroke by the israeli army...

Well, there are some different stories about Cana, actually. According to Human Rights Watch and reports from eye-witnesses there have not been any militants around the building.

"That conclusion was supported by two eyewitnesses interviewed by Human Rights Watch, who said that Hezbollah was not in the area when the attack took place. Human Rights Watch researchers who visited Qana the day after the attack found no destroyed military equipment in or near the home. None of the international journalists, rescue workers and international observers who visited the scene has yet reported seeing evidence of Hezbollah military presence in the area, and rescue workers have not yet recovered any bodies identifiable as Hezbollah fighters."

http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2006/08 ... o13910.htm

The story with the "hidden" militants is a story from the israeli army. Not the best source, if you want to get unbiased information...

Israël never strikes without a good reason for that.

"Human Rights Watch researchers found numerous cases in which the IDF launched artillery and air attacks with limited or dubious military objectives but excessive civilian cost. In many cases, Israeli forces struck an area with no apparent military target. In some instances, Israeli forces appear to have deliberately targeted civilians."

http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2006/08 ... o13902.htm

[Shurik]

Not the best source, if you want to get unbiased information...

I wouldn't call anything coming out of Lebanon now an unbiased information too. Basicly, Hizballa is in charge of what's being released outside and what's not, they show the correspondents the places to show to the public, nothing gets out of Lebanon without passing through Hizballa ... Several foreign correspondents admited that:
http://www.nrg.co.il/images/news/media/the_media.doc

Also, Lebanon claimed that almost 60 civilians were killed in Qana while in fact 28 bodies were found and it's the official number of casualties now. There are several "strange" things about this so-called massacre - the building collapsed 7 hours after the bombing, none of the bodies that were shown had injuries that can be sustained in collapsed building and some of the bodies looked like they were dead for several days ... Also, the evacuation of the bodies started only when the press arrived ... IDF admitted that the building was bombed but what happened to it between the bombing and the collapse is not clear.

"Human Rights Watch researchers found numerous cases in which the IDF launched artillery and air attacks with limited or dubious military objectives but excessive civilian cost. In many cases, Israeli forces struck an area with no apparent military target. In some instances, Israeli forces appear to have deliberately targeted civilians."

As far as I'm familiar with the laws of warfare and Geneva convention articles, every civilian area suspected of having an enemy military presence is a legitimate target for an attack and using civilians as human shields is a war crime. Correct me if I'm wrong ... Also, by the same laws everything that Hizballa does can be concidered a war crime (deliberately launching rockets into civilian population, kidnapping, using civilians as human shields, etc)
I served in IDF for 3 years and curently am a reservist soldier and I know pretty well what IDF might do and what not. Deliberately targeting civilians for a fun of it is not IDF's tactic.

P.S. This is the most civilized discussion on the subject of MidEast conflict I've ever had in English ... Kol ha-Kavod to all the participants

[Bathory Killcraft]

Unfortunately people do not learn from history. It seems that the Israeli people have forgotten what they suffered on the hands of the Nazi's.

And don't be carried away too much, Israel is just a US protectorate; without its financial and military backing it would be no different to the Palestinians themselves. A state artificially planted by US and the UK to give them a stronghold in the middle east.

I say nuke the fucking Middle East and create a huge sea where Israel, Palestine and the rest of the arab countries are instead. The world has too many problems already.

[Shurik]

It seems that the Israeli people have forgotten what they suffered on the hands of the Nazi's.

We have not, we just want to make sure it'll never happen again.

[MetalAngel]

Innocent people weren't so innocent in Cana bombing. They've protected, and that was proven by the medias, the militants of Hezbollah in their building and also they've hidden their weapons and those weapons exploded into the building and the building hasn't been stroke by the israeli army...

Well, there are some different stories about Cana, actually. According to Human Rights Watch and reports from eye-witnesses there have not been any militants around the building.

"That conclusion was supported by two eyewitnesses interviewed by Human Rights Watch, who said that Hezbollah was not in the area when the attack took place. Human Rights Watch researchers who visited Qana the day after the attack found no destroyed military equipment in or near the home. None of the international journalists, rescue workers and international observers who visited the scene has yet reported seeing evidence of Hezbollah military presence in the area, and rescue workers have not yet recovered any bodies identifiable as Hezbollah fighters."

http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2006/08 ... o13910.htm

The story with the "hidden" militants is a story from the israeli army. Not the best source, if you want to get unbiased information...

Israël never strikes without a good reason for that.

"Human Rights Watch researchers found numerous cases in which the IDF launched artillery and air attacks with limited or dubious military objectives but excessive civilian cost. In many cases, Israeli forces struck an area with no apparent military target. In some instances, Israeli forces appear to have deliberately targeted civilians."

http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2006/08 ... o13902.htm

That's actually what the anti-israeli medias want you to believe, but that's not necessary the truth.

[miditek]

Unfortunately people do not learn from history. It seems that the Israeli people have forgotten what they suffered on the hands of the Nazi's.

An unfortunate viewpoint; radical Islam, in my opinion, is simply the newest variant of Fascism. How in the world could Israel forget something as horrible as the Holocaust?

And don't be carried away too much, Israel is just a US protectorate; without its financial and military backing it would be no different to the Palestinians themselves. A state artificially planted by US and the UK to give them a stronghold in the middle east.

Note: Israel's history goes back thousands of years prior to 1948. No other ancient people have ever been dispersed among the nations, and then drawn back to their traditional homeland. In that respect, Israel is completely unique. Moreover, it is the only democracy in the Middle East, which again, is quite unique.

Israel is a sovereign nation, and while it does receive foreign aid from the United States, so do other countries in the region, such as Egypt.

Unfortunately, these facts are conveniently absent from far too many school textbooks these days.

Moreover, the USSR was the first major power to extend diplomatic recognition to Israel, not the US or the UK.

I say nuke the fucking Middle East and create a huge sea where Israel, Palestine and the rest of the arab countries are instead. The world has too many problems already.

On that note, I would say be careful what you wish for.

[Bathory Killcraft]

I say nuke the fucking Middle East and create a huge sea where Israel, Palestine and the rest of the arab countries are instead. The world has too many problems already.

On that note, I would say be careful what you wish for.

I actually hope it happens...

[Heiserich]

That's actually what the anti-israeli medias want you to believe, but that's not necessary the truth.

I don't think that you can seriously condemn HRW as "anti-iraeli". Or all the other newspapers, institutes and NGO's that criticize Israel for the behaviour of its army / government. You don't need to be an enemy of Israel to criticize what some hardliners in the governement and the IDF are doing to innocent civilians; it's just a knockout argument by the ones who are afraid of real discussions. Actually, there ARE several hundred dead civilians in Lebanon - and the IDF doesn't seem to be very anxious to prevent the loss of even more innocent lives. They are using cluster bombs and phosphorus bombs. There is no excuse for such atrocities in my opinion.

BTW: I'm definitely NOT an enemy of Israel. I wish for them and their neighbours to live in peace. But what they (that means: the government and the army) are doing right now has to be refused, because it systematically violates the human rights of Lebanese civilians in a grave way and goes directly against all the values I consider as worth fighting for.

[NeonVomit]

My reasoning behind my distrust of European diplomacy success rates is simple; 50-60 million dead due to Nazism and Fascism, 100 million or more dead due to Communism. Perpetual war in the Middle East, and large pockets of Muslims causing trouble throughout Europe, not to mention Asia and North America. The soil of the entire continent is soaked in blood, and you think they have the solution for 1+ billion Muslims whose goal in life if the elimination of Israel and the West?

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, NV.

Indeed. You make some interesting points in this post, but that last paragraph betrays your Islamophobia.

Pakistan is indeed a Muslim nation, but thankfully they're reasonably stable and have a secular government. Provided no-one causes any major screwups, I'm inclined to believe they will stay that way.

50-60 million dead 'due to Nazism and Fascism'? Doesn't convince me, I'm sorry. How? Where? It's not enough to simply blame WWII entirely on Nazism. WWII is a far more complex matter than most people realise.

100 million dead 'due to Communism'? You speak of political ideologies as if they were diseases or something. Even Stalin didn't kill that many of his own countrymen.

Yes, Europe has had a troubled history. It's almost like you see that as a bad thing. However, for the last 60 years things have been coming along quite well, I'd think. Europe is living, breathing, thriving proof of what people are capable of if they put their differences aside and live and work in cooperation. If anything, the European Union is an example for the rest of the world in that sense. The entire continent was in ruins in 1945, but is now possessed of the highest living standards in the world. People started working together instead of against each other, and the results are there to see. Even the Soviet Union's influence hasn't managed to cause too much disruption, countries within the former Eastern Bloc like Romania and Hungary are progressing rapidly.

Where are the 'large pockets' of Muslims causing trouble in Europe? Sure there are some tensions with immigrants (especially Turkish immigrants in Germany), but I guess that's like saying 'large pockets' of Mexicans cause trouble in California or indeed the rest of the United States. The terrorist acts in Madrid and London were carried out by people working pretty much alone in their small groups. Virtually all British Muslims are about as unremarkable as the rest of the population. Have you ever even been to Europe?

Come on dude, you've made some excellent points in other places, you're really letting me down with this childish way of thinking.

As for that last bit...well, my friend Deniz (who is a Muslim) actually wants to kill me deep down inside because I'm not Muslim? He's one of the 1 billion+ people in the world who's goal in life is 'the elimination of Israel and the West' right?

I agree with Nordic, that last statement was very poorly-worded. That was a borderline racist comment... I'm sure if there are any Muslims on this forum they would've been extremely offended by that.

I utterly fail to comprehend how you see 2 billion dead due to Islamic extremism.

The title of the first track on At The Gates' album Slaughter of the Soul says it all.

[miditek]

Come on dude, you've made some excellent points in other places, you're really letting me down with this childish way of thinking.

As for that last bit...well, my friend Deniz (who is a Muslim) actually wants to kill me deep down inside because I'm not Muslim? He's one of the 1 billion+ people in the world who's goal in life is 'the elimination of Israel and the West' right?

Indeed. You make some interesting points in this post, but that last paragraph betrays your Islamophobia.

I agree with you and Nordic that that 1 billion + thing was not correct. I should have phrased it, to the effect of, millions, rather than 1 billion, and I was wrong for wording it that way.

I've mentioned to you before that I have some good friends that are Muslim as well, and we work with each other frequently. We've had very, very deep discussions regarding Christian and Muslim eschatology, and with their pastor (imam) present, and no, we didn't strangle each other.

Sometimes I get carried away, after seeing Ahmandinejad's speeches, Nasarallah's speeches, seeing kids in uniforms that look not unlike the Hitler Youth. All of that looks a lot like the 1930's to me, and quite simply makes my blood boil.

Will follow up more later, but have got to get to a customer's site this afternoon for work.

Just wanted to clarify on that, and do the mea culpa thing.

[NeonVomit]

Come on dude, you've made some excellent points in other places, you're really letting me down with this childish way of thinking.

As for that last bit...well, my friend Deniz (who is a Muslim) actually wants to kill me deep down inside because I'm not Muslim? He's one of the 1 billion+ people in the world who's goal in life is 'the elimination of Israel and the West' right?

Indeed. You make some interesting points in this post, but that last paragraph betrays your Islamophobia.

I agree with you and Nordic that that 1 billion + thing was not correct. I should have phrased it, to the effect of, millions, rather than 1 billion, and I was wrong for wording it that way.

I've mentioned to you before that I have some good friends that are Muslim as well, and we work with each other frequently. We've had very, very deep discussions regarding Christian and Muslim eschatology, and with their pastor (imam) present, and no, we didn't strangle each other.

Sometimes I get carried away, after seeing Ahmandinejad's speeches, Nasarallah's speeches, seeing kids in uniforms that look not unlike the Hitler Youth. All of that looks a lot like the 1930's to me, and quite simply makes my blood boil.

My grandfather lost his entire family and neighbourhood to the Nazis. I know how you feel.

Sure, Islamic Extremism is the current 'flavour of the month' thing to be scared of (we used to have Communism).

Dude, I wake up every morning to see a Turkish flag that was carved out of the side of a mountain, a reminder of the half of my own country that I cannot witness without showing a passport. A passport! To go somewhere within my own home country! Believe me, I know how you feel. Sure, we Greek Cypriots did some pretty awful things and I (unlike most people here) believe that the invasion of 1974 was justified. The whole settlers buisiness and setting up a puppet state is however, is not. But at the end of the day, I have lost my entire inheritence. Turkey refuses to recognise the Cyprus Republic (despite being an EU member and recognised by the rest of the world).

I've had to live with this every day of my life since I was born, the weight of guilt of the things done in the past, and the anger at what has been done to us which I believe was severly disproportionate.

What gets me is innocent people caught in the middle. Much as you despise the Iranian government and the terrorists (thanks to whom I can never feel fully comfortable while using the Underground ever again), acting against them cannot be an excuse for the death of innocents. I hate the fact that my friend Sami is now living in his uncle's basement because his house was blown up (and were it not for his UK passport, he'd be stuck in Beirut still). He never did anything to anyone, he didn't have a stockpile of weapons in his attic. His house was targetted. Why? I hate the fact that my dad's friend Asaff was nearly killed when a rocket hit a building in Haifa. He was on his way to the newsstand to buy a magazine. He didn't bother anyone. Why?

[Shurik]

But what they (that means: the government and the army) are doing right now has to be refused, because it systematically violates the human rights of Lebanese civilians in a grave way and goes directly against all the values I consider as worth fighting for.

7-8 rockets that fell on Haifa an hour ago, destroyed houses, killed 3 people and wounded about 100, gravely violated my human right to live in peace in my country. We didn't start this shit, if Lebanese government had a microgramm of brains they would tell Hizballa to stop the same day the war was declared on Israel.

This may sound bad, but after almost a month of about 10 sirens per day, ruined semester and many other things I really don't care about rights of the citizens of the country that declared war on my country.

[MetalAngel]

I don't think that you can seriously condemn HRW as "anti-iraeli". Or all the other newspapers, institutes and NGO's that criticize Israel for the behaviour of its army / government. You don't need to be an enemy of Israel to criticize what some hardliners in the governement and the IDF are doing to innocent civilians; it's just a knockout argument by the ones who are afraid of real discussions. Actually, there ARE several hundred dead civilians in Lebanon - and the IDF doesn't seem to be very anxious to prevent the loss of even more innocent lives. They are using cluster bombs and phosphorus bombs. There is no excuse for such atrocities in my opinion.

The real thing is to think about the consequences of telling that Israel is violating human rights : that's bringing to terrorist organisations as Al Qaeda a very precious support on a silver plate. And that's playing the game of radical muslims. You should be more opened and going more into the real facts and not to state about some false or fake informations.
And NO, I'm not afraid by real discussions. I'm just pissed off by people's reactions to always criticize what Israel does or doesn't. No one has who doesn't live in there has the right to invade into Israeli inner politic. They only defend themselves against terrorism and that's normal.

BTW: I'm definitely NOT an enemy of Israel.

Are you sure?

I wish for them and their neighbours to live in peace.

GREAT!

But what they (that means: the government and the army) are doing right now has to be refused, because it systematically violates the human rights of Lebanese civilians in a grave way and goes directly against all the values I consider as worth fighting for.

And what about Lebanese people who have kidnapped three israeli soldiers and killed them? Isn't that violation of human rights??

[miditek]

What gets me is innocent people caught in the middle. Much as you despise the Iranian government and the terrorists (thanks to whom I can never feel fully comfortable while using the Underground ever again), acting against them cannot be an excuse for the death of innocents. I hate the fact that my friend Sami is now living in his uncle's basement because his house was blown up (and were it not for his UK passport, he'd be stuck in Beirut still).

I think that the point has been well made by nearly everyone that the civlian deaths are tragic. The thing is, that's what we keep hearing over and over again in the media. Have you had a chance to see the videos on CNN of Lebanese that were spitting on the leaflets that were dropped by the Israelis? Ripping the leaflets in half?

You'd asked about why more rockets were being fired despite the IDF's airstrikes. Israel has also been making radio broadcasts as well as telephone calls to town halls advising citizens to leave. Wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that;

a) This gives Hezbollah time to move Katushas out,
shortly after they are fired.

b) Certain civilians from leaving by Hezbollah, in order to ensure that there are non-combatant casualties in a specific area that Israel has warned to evacuate?

The UN Humanitarian Director condemned Hezbollah just last week for the use of human shields.

Also, isn't it reasonable to assume that Israel playing be the rules also puts (as Shurik suggested) IDF troops at much greater risk?

Is Nasarallah notifying Israeli citizens of where and when Hezbollah strikes are going to be, such as specific neighborhoods or buildings?

He never did anything to anyone, he didn't have a stockpile of weapons in his attic. His house was targetted. Why? I hate the fact that my dad's friend Asaff was nearly killed when a rocket hit a building in Haifa. He was on his way to the newsstand to buy a magazine. He didn't bother anyone. Why?

Understood, but in war, civilian casualties are unavoidable. That's one reason why war is so terrible to begin with, but I've yet to see any other nation go to the lengths that Israel has in order to ensure that civilian casualties are minimized.

Hezbollah, in turn, deliberately targets civilan areas, and seems to hit IDF installations usually by accident. Israel is condemned for doing its best to follow the rules of the Geneva convention while nothing is said of Hezbollah violating virtually every clause of the protocol, in terms of the rules of engagment, identification, and keeping distance from the civilians.

It's as if some media sources would have the public believe that Israel is practicing the WWII method of "city busting" with over 1,000 heavy bombers flying per mission, when in reality, the bulk of these missions are precision bombing runs by F-15 and F-16 fighter jets.

There seems to be a lot more international condemnation towards Israel as opposed to Hezbollah. Lebanese troops are also firing on IDF forces as well, when they could be, for instance, helping civilians. Hezbollah in turn, prefers to blend in amongst the civilians.

It appears that one of their goals is to make themselves virtually indistinguishable from the civilian population. That is an old trick that the VietCong did in the Vietnam war; and then the media is used to manipulate public opinion.